View Poll Results: How willing would you be to ride on a drone airliner? (remote piloted)

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  • I'm OK with it.

    10 38.46%
  • I wouldn't want to ride on one, but am OK with drone cargo aircraft operating in major airports.

    4 15.38%
  • I'm not OK with it- don't want any drones flying into major airports.

    11 42.31%
  • Other

    1 3.85%
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Thread: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

  1. #1
    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
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    Travel Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    To ride as a paying passenger on a "drone airliner" ? (ie, one with no pilots up front, but with mandated number of flight attendants in cabin).

    Before I delve deeper into this subject, I'd like to make it clear that I am only addressing the potential use of drones (remotely controlled) as passenger carrying vehicles. I do not intend for this thread to deginerate, or get sidetracked by the subject of drones for surveilance uses, or hunting down terrorists. These particular drone applications have been hashed and rehashed in other venues, ad nauseum.

    Still with me?? OK, I'll start this out by mentioning that, afaik, no serious talk has occured about the use of drones for passenger carrying applications. Nor has a prototype been designed or built. Drones have actually been around since the 1940's- actual aircraft initially had a real pilot on board, but at some point in the test phase, a remote controller would take over, and do whatever to the drone, with pilot taking over, and landing the "drone" aircraft. As things got more advanced, a drone aircraft could be remotely controlled from takeoff to landing. When those flights occured, they were in restricted airspace, with a limited radius of operation. Several examples of old airliners being flown with crash dummies in a "controlled crash" were flown in the Calif. desert. Some of you may have seen these videos.

    Fast forward: I'm sure many people are aware of the expanded use of drones in warfare, and surveilance since 911. Many such drones are glorified large scale model aircraft that couldn't begin to carry one passenger, or pilot. However, I've seen some online articles whereby the US Air Force has expressed interest in having drone cargo aircraft airlift/drop supplies to troops in combat zones. The drawings of proposed drones appear to be roughly the size of a 50 - 70 passenger regional jet. Additionally, Fred Smith, Ceo of Fed Ex has been quoted as expressing interest for drones on cargo flights.

    I doubt many of SW elder members will see this in their lifetime. Although the only interest expressed thus far for drone aircraft has been for cargo payloads, that isn't too far removed from passenger usage. In other words, talk has a way of becoming action, action has a way of expanding original scope. I'm curious on your thoughts about this.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    I would, after seeing several successful ones and a video or article on how the droning works. I'm sure the flight attendants would be trained to take over in emergencies. And if emergencies happened anyway, there's no guarantee that a pilot-driven plane would be able to escape/avoid them either.

    I'm also pretty sure that alien crafts are basically drone aircrafts. Although I've heard several times they they may be mind-powered, which is even crazier. I've watched so many alien shows, read so many forums and books on it, that I feel like consensus is that nothing drives the craft, and its energy-powered.

    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if tons of crazy technology already exists. Technology is moving so fast these days, and I'm sure the government/higher-ups know that introducing it to us all at once would be kind of traumatizing so they are doing it slowing. Or using it as government technology loooooong before its introduced to the world. And honestly, I would probably do the same thing if I were in a government position. Because its just too much to take in for the average person who grew up in a completely different era/mindset/value system.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Yes.

    The drone didn't have 4 martinis for lunch. The drone wasn't awake all night before flying in the morning with insomnia. The drone isn't going to get sick or have a heart attack during the flight.

    The drone won't miss a cue and come down the glide path at the wrong angle.......... Basically, it will fly perfectly as long as all systems are in order.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Yes.

    The drone didn't have 4 martinis for lunch. The drone wasn't awake all night before flying in the morning with insomnia. The drone isn't going to get sick or have a heart attack during the flight.

    The drone won't miss a cue and come down the glide path at the wrong angle.......... Basically, it will fly perfectly as long as all systems are in order.
    I'd rather have a human brain, which is far more advanced than any computer that exists today (or will exist for a long, long time) responsible for making sure I don't die, and land the plane safely. You can have drones in land vehicles all day long. If something goes wrong you are not suddenly falling from 30,000 feet in the air with nobody who knows how to fly it, or in the middle of the ocean thousands of miles into nowhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Yes.

    The drone didn't have 4 martinis for lunch. The drone wasn't awake all night before flying in the morning with insomnia. The drone isn't going to get sick or have a heart attack during the flight.

    The drone won't miss a cue and come down the glide path at the wrong angle.......... Basically, it will fly perfectly as long as all systems are in order.
    Sargey. Kills me. Every. Time!

    & yeah, whatever, sounds fun?


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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by FasaCorp View Post
    I'd rather have a human brain, which is far more advanced than any computer that exists today (or will exist for a long, long time) responsible for making sure I don't die, and land the plane safely. You can have drones in land vehicles all day long. If something goes wrong you are not suddenly falling from 30,000 feet in the air with nobody who knows how to fly it, or in the middle of the ocean thousands of miles into nowhere.
    Crashes are mainly human error....... The brain can only look at and process one instrument at a time. Where as the computer can read the inputs from hundreds and make adjusts a hundred times a second. If the system is functioning normally, and preflight would determine it or is not, then computer is going to save you, while the pilot is praying for a miracle.

    If one is going to fall out of the sky from 30,000 feet the two brains in the front seats can do little more than comment into the black box recorder.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Crashes are mainly human error....... The brain can only look at and process one instrument at a time. Where as the computer can read the inputs from hundreds and make adjusts a hundred times a second. If the system is functioning normally, and preflight would determine it or is not, then computer is going to save you, while the pilot is praying for a miracle.

    If one is going to fall out of the sky from 30,000 feet the two brains in the front seats can do little more than comment into the black box recorder.
    Regardless, it's probably not going to happen in our lifetimes anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by FasaCorp View Post
    Regardless, it's probably not going to happen in our lifetimes anyway.
    Funny, the driverless car is legal in California, and I think Nevada soon. How much more potential is there for fatal crashes?

    I think that the drone cargo plane will be first. Fedex, DHL, UPS, other carriers will push for it to lower the operating costs. A drone helicopter is in use by the Department of Defense, this machine without a pilot brings supplies and evacs wounded out of hot LZs where a piloted bird can't go.

    Technology is advancing to fast to say anything will not happen in our life time.

  10. #9
    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Yes.

    The drone didn't have 4 martinis for lunch. The drone wasn't awake all night before flying in the morning with insomnia. The drone isn't going to get sick or have a heart attack during the flight.

    The drone won't miss a cue and come down the glide path at the wrong angle.......... Basically, it will fly perfectly as long as all systems are in order.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Wow, someone has been watching too many reruns of "Flight", plus having some misconceptions on drone and normal aircraft operations.

    For starters, although drone mightnot have a pilot upfront, they still have a ground based "pilot" operating/monitoring the drone from a control panel. What makes you think such an individual would be less likely to drink, suffer from insomnia, or get sick than a regular pilot ?

    Secondly, all airline pilots are subject to initial hire plus follow on random drug testing. Go ahead and google "positive drug testing rates for airline pilots". Compare those very low rates with other professions, then get back with me, Sarge. Better that you did that before making those reckless allegations like you did in above post.

    "It will fly perfectly as long as all systems are in order". What if they're not all in order ? A remote ground based pilot simply doesn't have all the visual/sensory cues that onboard pilots have. Do you think a remote pilot could have had the same outcome that Capt Sullenburger did on Hudson River landing (2009) ?

    Lastly, flying military drones secretly violating foreign airspace is not the same as operating in harmony, and close co-ordination/communication with air traffic control into busy/congested airports like Chicago, Atlanta, etc.

    I should have highlighted that drones would still have a ground based pilot, and would have to be extesively tested, and certificated to operate in harmony with other aircraft in congested airspace. IMO, it would be at least 5 years for a sizeable military cargo drone could exist. Such a drone would likely only operate in forward deployed areas, and not routinely in congested civilian airspace. I would guess another 5 years for civilian cargo drones to operate in and out of busy civilian airports. As for passenger use, there must be widespread public acceptance- the results of this poll are divided thus far. I do see some expanded usage of drones as happening, but not at a breakneck pace to significantly replace manned aircraft.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Funny, the driverless car is legal in California, and I think Nevada soon. How much more potential is there for fatal crashes?

    I think that the drone cargo plane will be first. Fedex, DHL, UPS, other carriers will push for it to lower the operating costs. A drone helicopter is in use by the Department of Defense, this machine without a pilot brings supplies and evacs wounded out of hot LZs where a piloted bird can't go.

    Technology is advancing to fast to say anything will not happen in our life time.

    According to a couple of gentlemen friends with interests in the shipping business, sensor and control technology is moving fast enough that we'll not only see pilotless cargo planes very soon ... but also driverless semi trucks !!! If you're talking about direct airport to airport cargo flights, or direct interstate highway exit to interstate highway exit truck freight, there's no real need for continuous human remote control. Cruise missile sensor and control technology has been capable of this via 'terrain following' and GPS navigation for more than a decade.

    But in both cases, regulations will probably require that a human pilot / CDL driver ride along to 'take over' if conditions warrant. But even in that case, automation will still cut the 'skilled labor' requirement in half ... i.e. no co-pilot, and no 'team' driver necessary for the semi truck to be on the road 16 hours per day.

    However, my gentlemen friends suspect that passenger planes, buses etc. won't be approved for 'drone' operation any time soon. This assumption is based on the power of mainstream media to affect public opinion, combined with the 'strength' of the pilots' and teamsters' unions. However, this could be wrong, since fully automated subways and airport shuttles have been around for decades as well, and have been completely 'accepted' by passengers.

    Similarly, human control is probably going to be required to taxi the plane between the runway and the hangar, as well as between the interstate highway exit and the delivery loading dock, because this is where virtually all of the 'variables' come into play. This is already the case with cargo ships ...which essentially steer themselves once outside of ports ... a fact which has already eliminated the need for a fair amount of ship's crew. One of my gentleman friends thinks that something analogous to 'harbor pilots' might actually come into play for cargo planes and interstate semi trucks ... i.e. a pilot / driver coming 'aboard' when the plane reaches the end of the runway or the semi truck reaches the interstate highway exit.

    I was surprised when my friend told me what sort of cost savings are potentially involved. Not only would a co-pilot's ~$60k-$100k per year salary be saved, and another ~$25k+ in 'employer' SSI taxes / health insurance costs / retirement benefit costs / unemployment insurance and worker's comp premium costs, etc. but there would also be no need to pick up expenses for hotel rooms, meals, etc. for the ~50% of working days that a typical pilot spends away from 'home'.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-14-2013 at 05:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post

    Wow, someone has been watching too many reruns of "Flight", plus having some misconceptions on drone and normal aircraft operations.
    Never seen it.... I shut of cable in 2009....... Life has been better without it.

    Though, I will concede that apparently your a pilot and you give many more fucks about the subject than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    For starters, although drone mightnot have a pilot upfront, they still have a ground based "pilot" operating/monitoring the drone from a control panel. What makes you think such an individual would be less likely to drink, suffer from insomnia, or get sick than a regular pilot ?
    Who is right there on the floor with co-workers and not thousands of miles away and not thousands of feet in the air..... These pilots can't breeze their way into the cockpit and lock the door behind themselves. Any sign of impairment and they are out of that seat.... Without having to land a plane with a drunken pilot.

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    Secondly, all airline pilots are subject to initial hire plus follow on random drug testing. Go ahead and google "positive drug testing rates for airline pilots". Compare those very low rates with other professions, then get back with me, Sarge. Better that you did that before making those reckless allegations like you did in above post.
    So do a dozen other jobs that risk an employers reputation and millions in material such as train operator. Guess what? Still happens. Then you have foreign aircraft joining you up there that do not have such strict guidelines or willing to bend those guide lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    "It will fly perfectly as long as all systems are in order". What if they're not all in order ? A remote ground based pilot simply doesn't have all the visual/sensory cues that onboard pilots have. Do you think a remote pilot could have had the same outcome that Capt Sullenburger did on Hudson River landing (2009) ?
    I can't say..... I wasn't in the cockpit with Sully, and I haven't been in the control seat for a Reaper or Predator either... I can say that not being in the crashing plan would assist the operator simply by removing fear of death.

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    Lastly, flying military drones secretly violating foreign airspace is not the same as operating in harmony, and close co-ordination/communication with air traffic control into busy/congested airports like Chicago, Atlanta, etc.

    I should have highlighted that drones would still have a ground based pilot, and would have to be extesively tested, and certificated to operate in harmony with other aircraft in congested airspace. IMO, it would be at least 5 years for a sizeable military cargo drone could exist. Such a drone would likely only operate in forward deployed areas, and not routinely in congested civilian airspace. I would guess another 5 years for civilian cargo drones to operate in and out of busy civilian airports. As for passenger use, there must be widespread public acceptance- the results of this poll are divided thus far. I do see some expanded usage of drones as happening, but not at a breakneck pace to significantly replace manned aircraft.
    Yes, your moving the goal posts. It is also evident your angry at machines taking over a Mans job, and people feeling pretty good about it.
    Last edited by ArmySGT.; 04-14-2013 at 02:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    I'm with ArmySGT, let's face machines can do shit better than we can.
    "Well done. Here are the test results: You are a horrible person. I'm serious, that's what it says: 'A horrible person.' We weren't even testing for that."

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by FasaCorp View Post
    I'd rather have a human brain, which is far more advanced than any computer that exists today (or will exist for a long, long time) responsible for making sure I don't die, and land the plane safely. You can have drones in land vehicles all day long. If something goes wrong you are not suddenly falling from 30,000 feet in the air with nobody who knows how to fly it, or in the middle of the ocean thousands of miles into nowhere.
    Drones still have pilots, they just operate the aircraft from control centers instead of the aircraft itself. So it's not like in this scenario we'd just be riding with a machine. There would still be pilots, they would just be operating the plane from somewhere else.
    "Rather have my feet hurting than my pockets."

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by Trem View Post
    I'm with ArmySGT, let's face machines can do shit better than we can.
    Yet we build the machines that are capable of doing shit better than us. Machines only do what we give them the capability to do.
    "Rather have my feet hurting than my pockets."

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    We built them real good then!
    "Well done. Here are the test results: You are a horrible person. I'm serious, that's what it says: 'A horrible person.' We weren't even testing for that."

  17. #16
    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Never seen it.... I shut of cable in 2009....... Life has been better without it.

    Though, I will concede that apparently your a pilot and you give many more fucks about the subject than I do.

    Who is right there on the floor with co-workers and not thousands of miles away and not thousands of feet in the air..... These pilots can't breeze their way into the cockpit and lock the door behind themselves. Any sign of impairment and they are out of that seat.... Without having to land a plane with a drunken pilot.

    So do a dozen other jobs that risk an employers reputation and millions in material such as train operator. Guess what? Still happens. Then you have foreign aircraft joining you up there that do not have such strict guidelines or willing to bend those guide lines.

    I can't say..... I wasn't in the cockpit with Sully, and I haven't been in the control seat for a Reaper or Predator either... I can say that not being in the crashing plan would assist the operator simply by removing fear of death.



    Yes, your moving the goal posts. It is also evident your angry at machines taking over a Mans job, and people feeling pretty good about it.
    ************************************************** ************************************************** *****

    Not at all sarge, I enjoy challenging flawed/faulty assertions. I acknowledge that drones are here to stay, but am not giddy about a rapid expansion beyond present realm of drone operations.

    Your post is rife with flawed allegations/assertions. To wit:

    1) You've somehow got it in your head that airline pilots are a bunch of drunks/druggies. When challenged, you didn't offer any empirical proof of this assertion other than to say it happens. Yes, and people hit the lotto jackpot, are you next ?
    2) Somehow, the human equation will be removed by having drones vs onboard piloted aircraft.
    3) Somehow having ground based pilots is better than on board pilot because of some supposed supervisory/monitoring factors.
    4) Misc. laundry list culminating in your stated ignorance, and avoidance of some of my pointed questions about remote drone vs onboard crewed aircraft in normal and emergency operations. Also, ignorance about Air Traffic Control System, and Federal Air Regulations that must be considered for expanding beyond present scope of drone operations.

    I'll address the first 2 points in this thread, the other factors in a followup post.

    Point #1- In the second year of mandatory drug testing for transportation workers- 279,881 drug tests were administered to covered air transportation workers. The total number of positive results were 2605. Of those, Cockpit Flight Crews accounted for 32. (Estimating 25,000 - 30,000 flight crewmembers tested). By contrast, aircraft mechanics accounted for 1598 positive results.
    Historically, positive rates for flight crews have been LESS than 0.15%. Positive rates on truck drivers have been in the 2.5-3.5% range, a rate over 16-23 times the rate for flight crewmembers.
    You harp on flight crews, yet express no concern whatsoever about the mechanics who would be maintaining the drone aircraft, or sharing the road with impaired truck drivers.

    Point #2- Although drones might require 1 fewer pilot to remotely fly/monitor the drone, humans are still not completely removed from equation. Impaired flight crew must pass through security, plus interact with several people before flight, not to mention additional crewmember(s). The remote drone operator would operate in a sterile room, much like the air traffic controllers do. An airline interested in the potential labor savings of the drone isn't likely to staff control center with a slew of people, especially at the hours that the cargo drones are likely to operate. Yet, there of been cases of air traffic controllers falling asleep. What makes you think that the same thing won't happen with remote drone pilot in a similar control room environment.

    I'll continue the further point rebuttals in a future post.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    ************************************************** ************************************************** *****

    Not at all sarge, I enjoy challenging flawed/faulty assertions. I acknowledge that drones are here to stay, but am not giddy about a rapid expansion beyond present realm of drone operations.

    Your post is rife with flawed allegations/assertions. To wit:

    1) You've somehow got it in your head that airline pilots are a bunch of drunks/druggies. When challenged, you didn't offer any empirical proof of this assertion other than to say it happens. Yes, and people hit the lotto jackpot, are you next ?
    2) Somehow, the human equation will be removed by having drones vs onboard piloted aircraft.
    3) Somehow having ground based pilots is better than on board pilot because of some supposed supervisory/monitoring factors.
    4) Misc. laundry list culminating in your stated ignorance, and avoidance of some of my pointed questions about remote drone vs onboard crewed aircraft in normal and emergency operations. Also, ignorance about Air Traffic Control System, and Federal Air Regulations that must be considered for expanding beyond present scope of drone operations.

    I'll address the first 2 points in this thread, the other factors in a followup post.

    Point #1- In the second year of mandatory drug testing for transportation workers- 279,881 drug tests were administered to covered air transportation workers. The total number of positive results were 2605. Of those, Cockpit Flight Crews accounted for 32. (Estimating 25,000 - 30,000 flight crewmembers tested). By contrast, aircraft mechanics accounted for 1598 positive results.
    Historically, positive rates for flight crews have been LESS than 0.15%. Positive rates on truck drivers have been in the 2.5-3.5% range, a rate over 16-23 times the rate for flight crewmembers.
    You harp on flight crews, yet express no concern whatsoever about the mechanics who would be maintaining the drone aircraft, or sharing the road with impaired truck drivers.

    Point #2- Although drones might require 1 fewer pilot to remotely fly/monitor the drone, humans are still not completely removed from equation. Impaired flight crew must pass through security, plus interact with several people before flight, not to mention additional crewmember(s). The remote drone operator would operate in a sterile room, much like the air traffic controllers do. An airline interested in the potential labor savings of the drone isn't likely to staff control center with a slew of people, especially at the hours that the cargo drones are likely to operate. Yet, there of been cases of air traffic controllers falling asleep. What makes you think that the same thing won't happen with remote drone pilot in a similar control room environment.

    I'll continue the further point rebuttals in a future post.
    Line 2...... I concede that you give many more fucks than I do.

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    Default Re: Poll: Would You Be Willing To......................

    definitely !!! i ama robotic engineer and i trust machines over people anyday !!

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