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Thread: WTF has happend???

  1. #26
    Featured Member Odette's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    OH man I think law of attraction found this thread for me, first one I clicked on today! I work in two cities for this reason. City A where I go to school is extrasville. It sounds a lot like Detroit actually. There is like 1 club that is more discreet with the extras, and its uber competitive and filled with 100 barbies. It's basically not my style since I rock the sexy girl next door look. Anyway, the club I was at for 2 years I recently had to cut loose because it has gotten SO BAD that my last few shifts I left in the hole and before that was struggling to make 100 or 200. My last shift that made me say I'm DONE, I got propositioned not only 8 times that night. But the last one was a "how much for both of us to fuck you". WTF HOLY SHIT. And then they ask why I think so differently from all my other "colleagues". Disgusting. Then I was at a new club and it was going really well, I was making money, a good amount, especially considering that this club is full of extras as well. After 2 months they fired me without giving me a reason, even after I questioned it, said that I made money there, that the customers liked me. And all the manager would tell me is that "Well, just because you make money doesn't mean the club is making a lot of money off of you." RED FLAG. This club is full of a bunch of dick sucking grannies who have more than had their turn. It wasn't about appearance, I'm not overweight, and am a hot young girl with huge knockers. I was busy doing dances every night, and never left with nothing, did not sit around on my ass the whole shift like the grannies waiting for their regular to come in so they can suck him off for $100, yet I'm the one that gets fired? Yeah it was totally because I wasn't sucking dick and that makes me sick. I have half a mind to write an anonymous letter to the police department in my city, letting them know how dissatisfied I am with their ability to keep the clubs I have to work in decent, or at least not COMPLETELY corrupt. Is that not what I shell out 3 bills for every year for that stupid liscense? I guess I shouldn't be surprised. The mayor of this city is a documented crackhead with gang family ties and I did see him in sketchy ass club #1 once. This city is just fucked sideways. I want to move Or get an awesome corporate job.

    City B, on the other hand, actually upholds laws. Lapdances are in the open and there are cameras everywhere so good luck getting away with any funny business. AND the managers don't tolerate it, and even better, the customers don't expect it. Working in this city is a dream. However school is in city A, so I am stuck there 80% of the time....

    I wonder if there is a blog about this. The public loves to find out about how corrupt their government/police are.
    "We can't expect you to just know all the secrets of our top-secret-titty-club!" --Jenna Marbles

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    oh my god, that is so tragic about your son, i have a boy myself and i can't even imagine what you must be going through * huge hugs*

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    oh my god, that is so tragic about your son, i have a boy myself and i can't even imagine what you must be going through * huge hugs*
    Thnx, to you & everyone else who mentioned it, hope that didn't wander too close to threadjacking since I was getting more at an external-factors point w/ that post.

    Like Melonie said, such circumstances aren't the reason behind most girls going over to the extras side, & while I've since wondered many times 'What would I have done had I known?', I still conclude that if a girl is thinking that seriously abt crossing lines it's time to move shop out of the club.

    Hope these points didn't get completely lost in my sliwowica-induced ramblings

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Then I was at a new club and it was going really well, I was making money, a good amount, especially considering that this club is full of extras as well. After 2 months they fired me without giving me a reason, even after I questioned it, said that I made money there, that the customers liked me. And all the manager would tell me is that "Well, just because you make money doesn't mean the club is making a lot of money off of you." RED FLAG.
    Unfortunately, this is becoming increasingly the case for lots of clubs. The clubowners are starting to recognize that, given the reduced spending abilities of local customers, and given rising property taxes, utility bills etc. for the club, they now face a dilemma of allowing dancers to offer 'extras' to coax increased spending out of local customers, or facing a slow decline into bankruptcy. And from a 'moral hazard' standpoint, where the clubowner is concerned, his 'bust risk' is essentially unchanged whether one dancer is offering 'extras' or ALL dancers are offering 'extras'. On the flip side, ALL dancers offering 'extras' means greatly increased spending levels by local club customers, from which the clubowner receives an increased 'cut'. Thus in that scenario, 'clean' dancers are increasingly seen as being a financial 'liability' for the clubowner.


    The public loves to find out about how corrupt their government/police are
    That's a 'two edged sword' at best !!! Keep in mind that registered voters and actual taxpayers are not synonymous !

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Good god, where is the LE? You would think extras girls would be the liability. Wouldn't clubs be in jeopardy of losing their liquor license over such rampant stuff going on?

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    ^^^ for better or worse, even if dancers are busted for offering 'extras', it's something else altogether for a DA to prove that the clubowner had actual knowledge that 'extras' were taking place, let alone to prove that the clubowner was condoning / profiting from those 'extras'. Granted that where 'employee' dancers are concerned, an 'employer' clubowner bears direct responsibility for the conduct of his 'employees'. But where independent contractor dancers are concerned, this is not the case. As long as the clubowner can successfully 'plead ignorance' about independent contractor dancers offering 'extras', there's no solid legal grounds for the club's liquor license to be 'challenged'.

    Also, in the grand scheme of things, dancers legitimately busted for offering 'extras' are actually in a better position than clean dancers working in the same club being bogusly busted. The reason of course is that the much higher income level of the 'extras' girls allows them to retain 'well-connected' legal representation, whereas the bogusly busted 'clean' dancers' lower income level probably leaves them being represented by the club's attorney ( whose real interest lies in protecting the clubowner ) or a public defender ( whose real interest is non-existant ).

    And even if a dancer is ( bogusly or legitimately ) found guilty of a misdemeanor 'sex crime', in real world terms there is no additional downside if the same dancer is busted for a misdemeanor 'sex crime' AGAIN in the future. This can lead to a 'revolving door' situation where clubs are raided during election season, busted dancers accept plea bargains arranged by the club's attorney, the clubowner pays fines on behalf of the dancers etc. ... with politicians and LE getting the headlines they wanted, with the court system getting the fine money they wanted, and with the dancers returning to work the following night.

    Bottom line here, as was alluded to by earlier posters, is that in many areas the strip club 'market' has already evolved to the point where dancers operating 100% within the letter of the law is now a formula for a slow descent into bankruptcy for both the club and the dancers. So from the clubowner's standpoint, acceptance of the fact that ALL dancers must break the law on a nightly basis in order to generate profits is now a part of the 'new' strip club business model. Also, from LE's standpoint, clean dancers who violate a local strip club ordinance by dancing too close to a customer in order to 'sell' private dancers are technically guilty of the very same severity misdemeanor 'sex crime' as 'dirty' dancers offering actual sex for money.

    In other words, for the clubowner and for LE, there is extremely little difference in legal status between a 'clean' dancer dancing too close to a customer or a 'dirty' dancer offering BJ's. Thus from the clubowners's standpoint, having a club full of 'dirty' independent contractor dancers essentially presents near zero extra risk but a whole lot of potential additional revenue for the club !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-18-2013 at 03:55 AM.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Quote Originally Posted by Nina_ View Post
    It sucks, but this is becoming the norm. I work in Detroit, which is extrasville. I just found a 'clean' club (guys still try to grope you and they get away with it if you don't stop them), but at every other Detroit club I've worked at, the majority of the girls did extras (I'm talking bj and sex). A lot of the clubs are basically brothels. These are the same clubs where touching didn't even used to be allowed.

    When the economy went downhill, things changed. Girls started offering more for less. Some clubs started allowing it. Clubs lowered their hiring standards once they switched from paying the girls a wage to charging a house fee, because now the more girls they have the more money the club makes off them.

    I don't know if the industry will ever recover. I don't want to diss my age group, but there ARE a lot of young, dumb strippers who just became a stripper for the hell of it and only want to get wasted and party with their stripper friends at work; they're not serious about the job. I feel like these days, unless you're at a super high end / competitive club, you'll see so many girls who are simply trashy and don't take their job seriously. It's not a 'job' to them, it's a social experience. Girls at mid tier clubs used to have to look great, well put together, hair done, nice outfit... now this is ONLY the case for top tier clubs. Dancer quality has gone down to the point that girls do extras and let guys grope them because they don't know how to be strippers. They don't know how to entertain; they don't know how to engage customers in conversation; they don't know how to keep a guy in VIP for hours. Until clubs raise their standards, this will be the norm. Trashy girls who let guys have their way because they don't know any better. So now guys think it is OK, and the cycle continues.
    Exactly. While there have always been extras girls the difference is for the most part they did it outside the club because the club would fire them. Now even formerly clean clubs are now extras ridden and what used to be considered extras are now the norm. Hard to believe now but I got in trouble for kissing a regular on the cheek or even allowing a regular to briefly touch my legs. Also, yes the standards look wise have gone down. Back in my dancing days I worked at the midlevel clubs because I wasn't the Barbie type but even those clubs had standards. I recently saw the website of a club I once danced at and the dancers looked sleazy. This club was no touch bikini then became topless no contact but is now nude with full contact. The house used to be reasonable as well but I was told by several the house is expensive (like most clubs in or near Chicago).

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    ^I was talking about this with another girl on here yesterday, but it really disgusts me that the old bastards that once conformed to these rules are likely loving the new norm. It's so nasty. They know what they're doing is not "okay," but they're benefiting from this new wave of dancers.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    ^^^ true, but ... the relationship is symbiotic not parasitic. The 'old bastards' are the ones bringing a disproportionately large amount of money into the club. In a strict 'clean' club environment, without the customer spending coming from those 'old bastards', today there simply wouldn't be enough total customer dollars available from an 'average' suburban customer base to provide the club with a profit, nor to provide the 100% clean dancers with an income level sufficient to make dancing worth their while.

    IMHO today there is only one 'clean' strip club business model that can still be successful / profitable. That business model involves upscale clubs in big cities which only hire the 'best of the best' dancers ... which are able to attract upscale customers who fall into the 'top 5%' earnings tier. This caliber of customer can afford to spend $500-$1000 for basic 'entertainment' from low contact dancers during one trip to a strip club without feeling that they haven't gotten their 'money's worth'.

    Today, most blue collar / white collar suburban strip club customers simply no longer have the net incomes necessary to allow them to spend $50-$100 during one trip to a strip club without knowing that in doing so they are 'shorting' some other important element of their weekly budget. And $50-$100 per customer is arguably insufficient money to allow the club and the dancers to achieve a sustainable income level. Or put another way, if a blue collar / white collar suburban customer base strip club were to strictly enforce no contact rules today, it is virtually guaranteed that dancer earnings levels will quickly approach minimum wage and that the club will lose money. If this is allowed to continue for very long, the club will close and the no-contact dancers will be earning zero.

    Thus attempting to extract $250+ from a customer who can really only afford to spend $50-$100 now requires that the customer receive something 'significant' in return, which allows them to justify not paying their credit card bill or some other 'necessary' expenditure at the end of the month. The basic 'entertainment' provided by a low contact dancer is no longer considered to be 'significant' enough for this caliber of customer to justify non-payment of some other budget item. But throw in a BJ, and suddenly the customer is OK with the idea of not being able to pay his utility bill on time.

    And this of course brings us back to the symbiotic relationship ... meaning that low contact dancers working in blue collar / white collar suburban clubs are now economically dependent on the fact that other 'dirty' dancers in the same club offer 'extras' to 'old bastards', which in turn allows the club to remain profitable, which in turn provides the low contact dancer with a place to work !!!

    On a personal note, I find this fact to be 'disgusting'. Like many other businesses in today's struggling economy, the 'middle' has been hollowed out. The 'top tier' is doing better than ever, the 'bottom' is doing OK but having to 'do more for less', but the 'middle' is slowly going bankrupt. In that aspect, it's helpful to envision the different tiers of the strip club business in terms of the tiers in other businesses ... like Saks / JC Penney / WalMart or Ferrari / Chrysler / Hyundai.
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-18-2013 at 01:40 PM.

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    ^I think your take makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately, extras are so expected where I am that it is extremely difficult to find a club where even high-contact dances can be consistently sold. Customers don't bother being shy or even spending on dances before they gauge whether a dancer offers extras. They just ask, and that's if they even think it's a possibility that the dancer is clean--most are shocked to meet a non-prostitute. At the club I left last night, the "profitable" girls are making guys go upstairs and buy $300 bottles, so the club doesn't make them go on stage or anything because they'd rather the girl just go downstairs to find her guy, get the club its money, then make her own without interruption. And the manager vets these guys before they're allowed upstairs, so there's almost no chance of being vague about what they'll get upstairs and keeping your money if the customer is dissatisfied. Other less picky girls are selling the whole thing for $100 on the main floor. They are screwing guys on the dance couches in plain view. One of the worst girls danced to a song last night that started out as "I am not a whore." Almost every girl in the club began cackling, and one yelled, "I am!" I feel like my standards used to be "at least have the decency to take it out of the club." Now I just wish they'd keep it upstairs.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    I have no problem selling high contact lap dances. It pisses me off though, that what I offer is just not "enough" for anyone anymore. (some places) I give a daaaamn good lapdance. I work for my money, and I make sure the guy has a good time while avoiding prostitution. TBH, I don't mind grinding, never have. As long as customers are respectful and not rough, not going for the kitty, not being super gropey with my boobs, I'm fine. And they should take that and be grateful. But I not comfortable on soooooo many levels with sexual favours. Hand stuff, bj, sex. And the most mentally draining part I find is dealing with all the customers who, like tuesday mentioned, are SHOCKED when they find out you are not a hooker, and then give you a hard time about not wanting to suck their dick! It's one thing for them to ask, it's another level to be asked all the time, and it's just out of this world messed up when guys just do not want to take no for an answer no matter what you tell them: "I don't want to/I don't need to do that/I respect myself/I respect my body/I respect health and safety standards". Seems the only thing that makes them stfu is "I don't want herpes...do you want herpes? Because fuck a girl in here that's been fucking every guy that comes in and you WILL get it." I'm just glad I got in on the last few years this industry has been half decent because I do agree it seems to be going to the toilet fast.
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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    wow i guess i really got lucky with my club! the most the girls bitch about is the fact that other girls grind when giving dances and that one girl fingered herself in the champagne room. my club is pretty damn strict comparatively speaking, lotta those girls don't know how bad it could be. the club a few miles away from me is a 3-foot-rule club, so they do still exist!! i've had plenty of men ask for sex outside the club, but for the most part i have no problems selling dances with minimal to medium contact

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Coincidentally I'm watching the Book of Eli and it reminded me of this thread. I think the prosperity and safety we took for granted won't come back until enough of these places fail. Some clubs are on the downside of their life cycle.
    I'll add to what Melonie has said since I'm one of the girls from before the industry implosion: When owners cheap out by catering to the lowest guys, they get a temporary boost in money and then nosedive. I've seen it in city after city. The guys get cheaper and more entitled and the club runs out of attractive drug free girls willing to do so much for so little. They get a bad reputation and local yokel LE and politicians know those clubs are an easy target. Raids happen, zoning changes, and they are starved into closing.

    Escorts make more than these girls. They simply don't bother with these bottom feeders. Too much headache dealing with freaks who want to demean more than they want to have a good time. An ordinary escort custy would just go to willing providers instead of playing head games in a club with girls who are unwilling. The point is to force/coerce someone unwilling.

    You ladies have to choose for yourselves what you'll put up with. There are many ways to make money and it's a good idea to develop a few of your talents outside this industry. Some of us can travel or are in towns that will have some professionally run clubs left. But if that's not your situation it's good to have a backup plan and 8 months emergency fund. Don't buy high end clothes, car, etc. Just save, make your regulars and get their contact info so if you leave your club, you take them with you. I have regs from 6 YEARS ago who I stay in contact with. You meet a gentleman, you hold onto that guy!
    “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.” - ECKHART TOLLE

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    wow i guess i really got lucky with my club! the most the girls bitch about is the fact that other girls grind when giving dances and that one girl fingered herself in the champagne room. my club is pretty damn strict comparatively speaking, lotta those girls don't know how bad it could be. the club a few miles away from me is a 3-foot-rule club, so they do still exist!! i've had plenty of men ask for sex outside the club, but for the most part i have no problems selling dances with minimal to medium contact
    The club I described in my post is a three-foot rule club too It's just that nobody follows it.

    I think my first "old bastards" post was particularly brought on by a 65-year-old piece of shit I met last night. I was on his lap facing away from him leaning back on his chest, and he tried to stick his hand down the front of my bottoms. I grabbed his wrist and tried to redirect him, but he resisted--hard. He was stronger than me, so I slid down really quickly while pushing his arm away simultaneously. He tried it again a few minutes later, and said, "I am going to scare you." "Excuse me? What does that mean?" "I am going to create in you a level of anxiety." "Uh, no. You are not. Please keep your hands outside of and away from my bottoms. Now." He got pissed, asked if I was a "player," then ended the dance when I said no. He has been going to clubs for decades and clearly relished trying to push my boundaries. It just seemed so quietly sick.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Quote Originally Posted by tuesdaymarie View Post
    The club I described in my post is a three-foot rule club too It's just that nobody follows it.

    I think my first "old bastards" post was particularly brought on by a 65-year-old piece of shit I met last night. I was on his lap facing away from him leaning back on his chest, and he tried to stick his hand down the front of my bottoms. I grabbed his wrist and tried to redirect him, but he resisted--hard. He was stronger than me, so I slid down really quickly while pushing his arm away simultaneously. He tried it again a few minutes later, and said, "I am going to scare you." "Excuse me? What does that mean?" "I am going to create in you a level of anxiety." "Uh, no. You are not. Please keep your hands outside of and away from my bottoms. Now." He got pissed, asked if I was a "player," then ended the dance when I said no. He has been going to clubs for decades and clearly relished trying to push my boundaries. It just seemed so quietly sick.
    These predatory people are why most of us will leave in the next few years. How many times can a woman endure sexual assault before deciding it's not worth it? Not long in my opinion.

    Sorry to hear that happened to you, hun!
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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ for better or worse, even if dancers are busted for offering 'extras', it's something else altogether for a DA to prove that the clubowner had actual knowledge that 'extras' were taking place, let alone to prove that the clubowner was condoning / profiting from those 'extras'. Granted that where 'employee' dancers are concerned, an 'employer' clubowner bears direct responsibility for the conduct of his 'employees'. But where independent contractor dancers are concerned, this is not the case. As long as the clubowner can successfully 'plead ignorance' about independent contractor dancers offering 'extras', there's no solid legal grounds for the club's liquor license to be 'challenged'.

    Also, in the grand scheme of things, dancers legitimately busted for offering 'extras' are actually in a better position than clean dancers working in the same club being bogusly busted. The reason of course is that the much higher income level of the 'extras' girls allows them to retain 'well-connected' legal representation, whereas the bogusly busted 'clean' dancers' lower income level probably leaves them being represented by the club's attorney ( whose real interest lies in protecting the clubowner ) or a public defender ( whose real interest is non-existant ).

    And even if a dancer is ( bogusly or legitimately ) found guilty of a misdemeanor 'sex crime', in real world terms there is no additional downside if the same dancer is busted for a misdemeanor 'sex crime' AGAIN in the future. This can lead to a 'revolving door' situation where clubs are raided during election season, busted dancers accept plea bargains arranged by the club's attorney, the clubowner pays fines on behalf of the dancers etc. ... with politicians and LE getting the headlines they wanted, with the court system getting the fine money they wanted, and with the dancers returning to work the following night.

    Bottom line here, as was alluded to by earlier posters, is that in many areas the strip club 'market' has already evolved to the point where dancers operating 100% within the letter of the law is now a formula for a slow descent into bankruptcy for both the club and the dancers. So from the clubowner's standpoint, acceptance of the fact that ALL dancers must break the law on a nightly basis in order to generate profits is now a part of the 'new' strip club business model. Also, from LE's standpoint, clean dancers who violate a local strip club ordinance by dancing too close to a customer in order to 'sell' private dancers are technically guilty of the very same severity misdemeanor 'sex crime' as 'dirty' dancers offering actual sex for money.

    In other words, for the clubowner and for LE, there is extremely little difference in legal status between a 'clean' dancer dancing too close to a customer or a 'dirty' dancer offering BJ's. Thus from the clubowners's standpoint, having a club full of 'dirty' independent contractor dancers essentially presents near zero extra risk but a whole lot of potential additional revenue for the club !!!
    Nice response Melonie.

    I realized my question sounded naive when really it bothers me, because I happen to work in a club that takes pride in having a clean reputation. I guess if you can't beat the clubs at their own game, then perhaps the most we can do (beside up-ing our own game) is educate the girls. That's why I love stripperweb. Girls should realize you don't have to submit yourself to doing extras to make money, don't let men talk you into something you're not comfortable with, you are not committed to any club, be independent, etc etc.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    Coincidentally I'm watching the Book of Eli and it reminded me of this thread. I think the prosperity and safety we took for granted won't come back until enough of these places fail. Some clubs are on the downside of their life cycle.
    I'll add to what Melonie has said since I'm one of the girls from before the industry implosion: When owners cheap out by catering to the lowest guys, they get a temporary boost in money and then nosedive. I've seen it in city after city. The guys get cheaper and more entitled and the club runs out of attractive drug free girls willing to do so much for so little. They get a bad reputation and local yokel LE and politicians know those clubs are an easy target. Raids happen, zoning changes, and they are starved into closing.

    Escorts make more than these girls. They simply don't bother with these bottom feeders. Too much headache dealing with freaks who want to demean more than they want to have a good time. An ordinary escort custy would just go to willing providers instead of playing head games in a club with girls who are unwilling. The point is to force/coerce someone unwilling.

    You ladies have to choose for yourselves what you'll put up with. There are many ways to make money and it's a good idea to develop a few of your talents outside this industry. Some of us can travel or are in towns that will have some professionally run clubs left. But if that's not your situation it's good to have a backup plan and 8 months emergency fund. Don't buy high end clothes, car, etc. Just save, make your regulars and get their contact info so if you leave your club, you take them with you. I have regs from 6 YEARS ago who I stay in contact with. You meet a gentleman, you hold onto that guy!
    Yep on so many levels. I have spoken a few times where I saw this happen: owner gets greedy and either starts raising house or starts hiring less desirable dancers. Often times these less desirable dancers also happen to be hookers (and in one case were actual streetwalkers). Quality dancers leave and with them the quality customers. The club then becomes a skanky club full of hookers, pimps, drug dealers and low class men. Club then gets busted and often closes. Dancers that are used to making $200 a night doing air dances don't exactly like the idea of making $50 after doing extras (just throwing out random numbers). I resented when these clubs became unworkable because at one time they were nice clean clubs I brought friends to and wasn't ashamed to admit I danced there.

    Incidentally I managed to hold onto several regulars for many years after dancing, including one I had almost 20 years! This one sadly passed away but I had many others I held on for many years as well.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    I think the prosperity and safety we took for granted won't come back until enough of these places fail. Some clubs are on the downside of their life cycle.
    I'll add to what Melonie has said since I'm one of the girls from before the industry implosion: When owners cheap out by catering to the lowest guys, they get a temporary boost in money and then nosedive. I've seen it in city after city. The guys get cheaper and more entitled and the club runs out of attractive drug free girls willing to do so much for so little. They get a bad reputation and local yokel LE and politicians know those clubs are an easy target. Raids happen, zoning changes, and they are starved into closing
    I've seen this happen as well. But I've also seen the 'dirty' clubs come to an accommodation with local LE, or moving 100ft outside the city limits, etc. such that they remain in business long term. But, as has been amply pointed out already, 'clean' dancers who continue to work in 'dirty' clubs typically wind up assuming a similar amount of bust risk but a rather disappointing earnings potential.

    And yes on the flip side, if the city is big enough to support it, an upscale 'clean' club will also remain viable by appealing to businessmen, suburban husbands, and other upscale customers who want to avoid subjecting themselves to a potential bust risk by patronizing 'dirty' clubs. Dancers who are able to work in the upscale 'clean' club can still achieve respectable earnings potential without having to provide heavy duty 'extras'. However, given the limited number of upscale club dancer opportunities available, upscale clubowners will typically not hire dancers who aren't 'the best of the best'.

    So between these two extremes, the 'middle' is slowly but surely disappearing. And with it, opportunities for dancers who don't choose to offer heavy duty 'extras' and who don't 'measure up' to the standards of upscale clubowners are disappearing as well.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    Melonie, most of the midlevel clubs I danced at are either long gone or are now sleazy joints so that is definitely true here. At one point this one street in a few mile radius had 4 clubs and only one remains (but has changed owners several times).

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    I think if these dirty clubs start getting busted more often, and instead of just the dancer getting fire, the club gets a fined, it will end this quickly. Management can do A LOT to keep the club in control, by changing the club layout and enforcing the rules. Like Melonie said, extra girls can be profitable for them.

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    ^^^ no argument from a theoretical standpoint, but from a 'real world' standpoint that's simply not going to happen in the vast majority of cases.

    A clubowner cannot be fined for the illegal actions of independent contractor dancers over which the club has 'limited control', any more than a landlord cannot be fined if a tenant is caught running a drug dealing business out of one of the landlord's apartments. Legally speaking, the only 'real world' way that a clubowner or landlord can be made to 'share the guilt' is if LE can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the clubowner or landlord had specific prior knowledge that illegal activities were taking place, PLUS the clubowner or landlord were specifically profiting from such illegal activities. Those are pretty high legal burdens for LE to prove. And, typically, even if LE could offer such proof, club attorneys will provide them with reasons not to proceed ... i.e. offering to arrange plea bargains for busted dancers resulting in flashy election year headlines, and payments of heavy fines for busted dancers, in exchange for the DA not pursuing charges against the clubowner.

    Thus in ironic 'real world' terms, 'extras' girls are profitable for both the clubowner and for local LE !!!

    Agreed that clubowners could easily eradicate 'extras' in their clubs ... by such means as remodeling to eliminate 'ultra-private' areas, by actually firing dancers caught offering sex for money, etc. But if doing so would also eradicate club profitability, and if clubowners essentially face zero legal risk regardless of whether some dancers are offering sex for money in their club, why on earth would clubowners want to do so ? Like it or not, in the aftermath of 'too big to fail' banks not being prosecuted, in the aftermath of oil spill companies not being prosecuted, etc., these days the 'letter of the law' carries little weight ... and the payment of fine / settlement money seems much more important to LE than obtaining convictions. In that sort of environment, mid-level clubs that attempt to adhere to the 'letter of the law' are doomed to the same fate as mid-level banks i.e. being victims of 'unfair competition' !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-21-2013 at 03:53 AM.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    ^This is where LE comes in. Places that are great to dance are often so because of well enforced laws which designate boundaries between lapdancing and prostitution, are clearly marked, and MAKE clubs conform to standards which work in favour of deterring shadiness. Real world examples of such are that lapdances must be done in a semi-open area, preferably with security cameras, the area must be patrolled by club staff, and the club itself must be regularly inspected by LE, and dancers/staff/clubs that break said standards close for a certain amount of time so that the owners are more inclined to enforce the standards on their own without excessive involvement of LE being neccessary. It is places where government and LE is corrupt or broken in some way that clubs seem to be having a lot of issues.
    "We can't expect you to just know all the secrets of our top-secret-titty-club!" --Jenna Marbles

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    ^^^ again, no argument from a theoretical standpoint. However, I have seen lots of instances where a city with strict anti-strip club ordinances winds up 'bankrupting' half of the clubs within the city limits as soon as a new clubowner figures out that opening a club 100ft outside the city's boundaries ... that is not restricted by that anti-strip club ordinance ... offers the opportunity for 'unfair competition'. Dancers in the new club start offering 'extras', which in turn draws customers away from the city clubs, which in turn draws other dancers away from the city clubs, which in turn draws more customers away from the city clubs. So in the end, 'clean' dancers still working in the 'clean' city clubs ... well at least thise still able to work in the 'clean' city clubs that don't go bankrupt ... wind up seeing their customer spending thus dancer earnings potential cut in half.

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    Default Re: WTF has happend???

    A blog of a former strip club manager has this from a female reader:

    "My little sister is now dancing in the club where I danced 10 years ago. She looks like I did then and she is taking home an average of about $100 most nights. I never had a night that bad. A bad night for me was $200 but that was a rainy Tuesday. On Friday or Saturday, $900 was not uncommon. What she does is almost exactly what I did. I didn't do extras and she doesn't do extras. I got nude on stage and she gets nude on stage. She also says the club is about as full as it was when I did it. The difference now is guys aren't spending money like they did. Also, management wasn't making enough money in the last year or so so they started changing the split with the dancers. I used to get half of all dances I did. My sister does but only after she sells some dances and the house keeps 100% on them. On Friday and Saturday nights, the house takes 100% on the first 3. On other nights, it's 1 or 2. Some nights, she is working completely for them and all she takes home is tips. Needless to say, she is probably going to give up dancing as soon as she finds something else."

    and this comment from a male reader:

    "In addition to bad economy, internet porn, and escorts, there are other reasons for the decline of strip clubs. The novelty of seeing women dance naked in a public bar has worn off. How long has it been since nude dancing became fairly wide spread in the U.S.? Forty years? That's two generations. Most of the guys today don't remember the time when nude dancers were unthinkable and unavailable. Even the religious fanatics have stopped protesting them. Strip clubs are seen as poor value for the money - clip joints, really. A trip to a low mileage club can cost hundreds if you do a lot of stage tipping and lap dances. Yet, you leave horny. A trip to a high mileage club has you spending hundreds for a 10 minute experience in a cramped booth not much bigger than the back seat of a Volkswagon. No wonder escorts are doing well."

    Pretty depressing outlook.

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    ^^^ unfortunately, melany, your anecdotal example of the sister dancers working in the same club 10 years apart pretty much 'says it all'. Where 'clean' clubs are concerned, customers are spending less money than they used to. This directly affects both club and dancer income. And with 'costs of doing business' rising for the clubowner, one of the main methods of 'restoring' the club's revenues above the now higher 'break-even point' is to divert a greater share of the reduced customer spending away from the dancers and toward the club instead. This amounts to a 'double whammy' on dancer income potential.

    Arguably, were it not for the ongoing poor economic conditions limiting other options, a large number of 'clean' dancers would consider working for $75 a night ( after taxes ) as being 'no longer worth it' - IF they are required to report incomes and pay taxes, and if their adult entertainment work history becomes a matter of public record, anyhow.

    In regard to the customer's comments, he is absolutely right that 'clean' strip clubs no longer have much 'perceived value' to offer to customers. While the customer's point about new alternatives having been facilitated by the internet ( i.e. adult websites or booking escorts ) is valid, IMHO this was not the major reason for the change in 'direction' of the strip club industry from 'show business' to 'sex business'.
    e
    The arguable single most important catalyst causing the downhill slide was in fact a 1999 court ruling. That court ruling was made in favor of a group of female sales reps who successfully sued their employer on the basis of 'sex discrimination' ... based on the fact that male counterparts were able to 'ply' potential customers via strip club visits while she and her female counterparts could not ... which the court deemed to be a sex based unfair competitive advantage.

    This court ruling resulted in an IRS ban on businesses being able to 'write off' unlimited customer related strip club entertainment costs as a business expense, as well as a change in corporate policies that sales staff could no longer utilize strip clubs as a 'sales tool' ( deeming them to be 'inappropriate venues' ). IMHO the resulting reduction in 'clean' strip club visits and spending by businessmen greatly reduced total customer spending at 'clean' strip clubs, which in turn placed much more emphasis / dependence on remaining spending by other customers ... but with that other customer spending being much more concerned with high contact levels and the availability of 'extras'.

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