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Thread: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

  1. #26
    Veteran Member GracieBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    Hey ladies.
    I'm new to camming and it has made me think a lot about relationships.
    Is a man calling other women for phone/cam sex considered cheating?

    For those of you in relationships how would you feel if he did so? Its the people requesting for extreme age play that gets to me the most.
    These are seemingly well to do men wanting to wank over fucking kids.
    I dont want to even think about the day I tell a future partner about what I do and for some of you whos boyfriends accept it, good on you.
    Having said that however if I was to enter a serious relationship I would stop camming. I just wouldnt feel comfortable.
    I also feel that men who don't mind their women/wives selling themselves (which is exactly what youre're doing) is either because of financial reasons or have a certain outlook on women in general. I'm not saying that you dont find genuine men who simply see it as a vocation but the amount of girls I speak to telling me how theyre supporting their bfs or doing it to keep their family afloat makes me wonder if partners are putting their financial stability before their true feelings.

    I understand the above views are rather controversial but they're mine. You dont have to agree but you should respect them

    Also the amount of husbands that call saying how much they hate their wives, or that shes too fat, too ugly as I type theres a man who emailed saying how he has a fantasy of raping his wife because she doesnt sleep with him anymore.
    Its deplorable.
    Its really worrying how many people are dissatisfied with their sex lives. What if such was to happen to me? God.

    I know youre probably thinking why do you care this is how you make your money but still. I am a woman, and hopefully a future wife and mother before I am a webcam model.


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  3. #27
    Featured Member Busygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Well you were generally talking negatively about the industry and the job, and what it entails, and people being generally dissatisfied with their sex life and you being afraid of being treated the same in the future by your husband, or he basically becoming one of the customers your dealing with in the future.

    "I dont want to even think about the day I tell a future partner about what I do and for some of you whos boyfriends accept it, good on you.
    Having said that however if I was to enter a serious relationship I would stop camming. I just wouldnt feel comfortable.
    I also feel that men who don't mind their women/wives selling themselves (which is exactly what youre're doing)"
    Its really worrying how many people are dissatisfied with their sex lives. What if such was to happen to me? God.
    I know youre probably thinking why do you care this is how you make your money but still. I am a woman, and hopefully a future wife and mother before I am a webcam model."

    I re read your post, to see if i failed to understand you, but obviously i did, since your telling me i chat "bullock" and your yelling at people to "STFU"

    Sorry i wasn't able to help. I'm not sure what are you ultimately looking for to hear/read.

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    Veteran Member GracieBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    Oh stfu.
    Did I say I didnt want comments? I asked a question so ofc Im expecting them as it is what I wanted. I knew it would cause a bit of controversy and I clearly stated so. I just dont like how people are making assumptions that im not happy/fit for what I do.
    Nice metaphor, make that up yourself?

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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    Can people fucking read my thread properly and refrain from patronizing assumptions which arent any of your business or dont comment at all. Thanks
    Eat this... it s not chicken, your own words. I quoted it again for you "don't comment" God bless your heart.. THIS IS A FORUM ... PPL WILL COMMENT
    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    Oh stfu.
    Did I say I didnt want comments? I asked a question so ofc Im expecting them as it is what I wanted. I knew it would cause a bit of controversy and I clearly stated so. I just dont like how people are making assumptions that im not happy/fit for what I do.
    Nice metaphor, make that up yourself?
    AGAIN... you stated you wanted to be a wife and mother before a camgirl....

    No one said your not happy.. ppl give advice.. if you cant take it, don't ask. On this forum, we speak in general, meaning to anyone.



    No I did not make it up myself. I actually read it on a swingers website. \.. makes sense.



    No one cares about you. This is a topic, nothing personal.

    I can say IDGAF..
    I can say I do not like how you attack this community and your fresh meat on the market

    A piece of advice, don't fuck around and make enemies before you get your feet wet .

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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    ^^^^^ I love Mr Rogers.. its such a friendly day in the neighborhood.
    Mods know damn well I am biting the bullet on this one.

  9. #31
    God/dess Blovely's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    ********Long Read**********

    Extreme age play and rape fantasy??? I don't really do any fetish's that will most likely cause me to think/question is this fantasy or is he doing this in real life. I'm not all that comfortable with those types of fetish's so I don't do them. When guys asks if I do those fetish's it doesn't bother me or cause me to go into deep thinking. I just tell them that I don't do such and such and keep it moving.

    Porn & Cheating?? Guilt?? Camming/being an online entertainer hasn't altered my definition of cheating. Honestly I don't think about it all that much. Sounds kind of bitchy but I don't really care all that much. If a guy has a girlfriend/wife and is on a camsite spending his or their money on me its not really my problem. I use to feel bad when guys came into my room bad mouthing their girlfriend/wife. I wouldn't even do shows where guys wanted me to tell them how much hotter or sexier I was then their s.o. But now it no longer bothers me because hey its their fetish, their s.o and I'm here to get paid.

    I do however think that its kind of gross and messed up when married men try to meet up. I'd never actually meet up with them but I do play into the fantasy of it. I had one guy try an meet up, he never said he was married but I saw the wedding ring on his hand in a picture. Another guy wanted to meet, I found out that he was married after a few shows. His wife clearly didn't know because he was always on the look out and he mostly typed in fear of her hearing. But then they're guys who are married/have a gf and their lady is aware of their activities. Some guys are just more honest with their s.o. then others.

    I'm a very open person when it comes to relationships and sex in general. As long as he's not an addict or neglecting me for porn, I don't really have a problem with a dude watching it. Guys have told me that they watch porn... shoot I've even watched it with them sometimes. Alot of women will shun, belittle, humiliate, etc their s.o. for jerking off, watching porn, wanting to try something new in the bedroom, etc. So its not that easy for some men to be open and honest with their s.o. Because of how open I am I hope that a guy would be comfortable enough to tell me that he watches porns, jerks off, has a kink/fetish, wants to try something new, etc. As far as a guy I'm dating using a camsite or phone site I honestly don't know how I'd feel about that.


    Dating and Camming???? Me stopping what I'm doing for a man isn't going to happen. He can either deal with it or kick rocks. I have absolutely no desire to stop what I'm doing because a dude doesn't like it or is uncomfortable with it. I might gripe about camming/it being slow in threads but I love this job. I've pretty much went through hell trying to figure out my sexuality and camming basically ended up being the magic key. It fits me, it balances me out, and it works for me. Camming pretty much made me who I am. No way I'd give it up and be miserable for a dude.

    I find men funny sometimes. We are in a time where women being scantily clad or implied nude/topless/naked on instagram, twitter, facebook is pretty normal. Some guys have a problem with women not being able to take care of themselves, not being independent, and not having any goals/ambition. Which to me is pretty understandable. But then when they come across a camgirl its like oh no she's a slut because she; gets naked for money, fucks herself for money, or virtually jerks guys off for money. But then some of these men don't have a problem with the instagram, twitter, etc chicks who don't have jobs, can't take care of themselves, and or don't have $0.02 to rub together.

    Then there's the guys who aren't on social network sites or don't hook up with instagram/twitter chicks. Some of these men complain about chicks always being broke because they don't make enough with working a minimum wage job. Or they complain about the corporate chick who's always working and is too career driven. So you don't want a chick that's broke all the time, ok. You want a chick that's ambitious and has it together yet you don't want Ms.corporate because she works all the time. So you get a chick who isn't broke and is ambitious. She also has more time on her hands because she can make what the minimum wage chick or corporate chick makes in a 40-60 hour week in 1 shift/day or a few shifts/days. Buuuuuuuut you shun her, belittle her, and don't want to be with her because she requires payment for what the instagram chick basically does for free. It's like make up your mind please.

    I don't have a problem with a dude not liking what I/we do. Fine that's his opinion and he's entitled to have his own feelings. But don't come into my life trying to change me, dictate what I can and can not do, and or disrespect me an what I do. Guys want to tell us adult entertainers what we can and can't do but then they want the alternative to be us downgrading to a crappy 9-5 job where we have to struggle for average or below average pay (most 9-5er's don't even like their job). Or they want to have control over us by paying our bills and giving us an allowance aka having us be totally dependent on them.

    I'm sorry but I'm not about that life and I'll kindly tell a dude to get the fuck outta here. I'm not going to be miserable or struggle for a man nor am I going to support a man. If and when I want to stop camming, being an online entertainer, being in the adult industry then I will make that decision on my own and for myself. Until then any man that decides to seriously date me can either accept what I do like a man or he kick rocks.....either way I'll be fine and content.
    Last edited by Blovely; 11-22-2013 at 12:36 AM. Reason: grammar


  10. #32
    loveshooks
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    thanks to everyone who reported instead of flaming

    I think the drama tends to spiral around here when opinions are perceived as personal attacks. it's hard to read tone and nuance on the net, I get it, but any time there's a group of strong, independent chicas together, yeah, opinions will vary and sometimes clash. the convo doesn't need to become hostile though.

    I am handing out more warnings/points about this kinda thing cuz it seems lately like every controversial topic devolves into a fight, for absolutely no reason. most people here don't want to fight and this ish isn't good for the community.

    anyways, back to the wicked posts. brief dramaz interlude ~fin~


  11. #33
    Veteran Member Tbean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    I don't have an issue at all with my significant other watching porn, and I'd MUCH rather have him paying a cam girl then actually having an online relationship with a woman he is NOT paying, that IS showing the goods...that would be far more concerning to me then him paying someone to do their job so he could get off...if she's giving it away to him that indicates feelings...which to me is cheating. Does that make sense?
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    It really bothers me with how many married/taken guys I see in my cam room, it makes me paranoid, and kind of hate men.
    I have an unusual situation, my husband cammed before he met me to take care of his parents when they needed it. He actually understands that it's just business, that I feel no sexual arousal from my work, that at the end of the day I'm his, and only thinking about him. He doesn't freak out about my weird fetish work, and he isn't my pimp, he works too and respects that I do whats necessary for my family. Actually he's incredibly supportive, but I know that finding a guy like that is rare, and not everyone gets it. Why should they? They're the guys that are in the cam rooms/strip clubs, that buy into the fantasy and believe that we enjoy watching random guys jerk it.
    I don't, and never will, feel ashamed about the work that I do. If my son finds out when he's older I won't deny it. I don't think that my parents failed in raising me like some asshats say, my dad taught me to take care of my family, do whatever it takes and work hard. The fact that my job isn't that enjoyable only makes me prouder that I do it for everyone. I know I won't change your mind, and you're obviously entitled to your own opinion, but I do think that there are positive things that you can take away from this. I was abused for years, everyone I have ever dated has treated me like shit, told me I was ugly and deserved nothing, forced me to give them BJs and crap. I had zero confidence going into this job, I thought I was hideous and never stood up for myself. That is hardly the case now.
    As for age play, I was at first revolted as well, but read on here (I can't remember exactly who, but it was put wonderfully) about acting out the fantasy on cam is a healthy way to release the desires, not to have them pent up until they actually act on them. If playing a little kid on cam keeps a guy sexually satisfied enough to keep him from abusing a little kid, then I can feel damn good about my job. You're a hero to that kid, but that's just my two cents.

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    Featured Member luvnrockets's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    My husband and I get off on me being HIS whore. I sign all my checks over to him and he says things like "go make money for daddy, don't make me smack a bitch." It gets me wet.

    Let's go ahead and judge our entire relationship and my self-worth as a woman, because my husband can't possibly be a sweet, caring, respectful guy. That's just...women's studies 101!
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  17. #36
    Member nubienneAW's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by temptingmodel View Post
    Eat this... it s not chicken, your own words. I quoted it again for you "don't comment" God bless your heart.. THIS IS A FORUM ... PPL WILL COMMENT


    AGAIN... you stated you wanted to be a wife and mother before a camgirl....

    No one said your not happy.. ppl give advice.. if you cant take it, don't ask. On this forum, we speak in general, meaning to anyone.



    No I did not make it up myself. I actually read it on a swingers website. \.. makes sense.



    No one cares about you. This is a topic, nothing personal.

    I can say IDGAF..
    I can say I do not like how you attack this community and your fresh meat on the market

    A piece of advice, don't fuck around and make enemies before you get your feet wet .
    How am I attacking this community when im a part of it? i have said nothing wrong. if the shoe fits then the shoe fits however. if people have a problem with me, then thats their problem. couldnt care less about making enemies on a forum its not like anyones going to shoot me through a webcam rofl. all i did was ask qs and voice my personal reservations abt my own private life, hypothetically.

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    Veteran Member GracieBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    How am I attacking this community when im a part of it? i have said nothing wrong. if the shoe fits then the shoe fits however. if people have a problem with me, then thats their problem. couldnt care less about making enemies on a forum its not like anyones going to shoot me through a webcam rofl. all i did was ask qs and voice my personal reservations abt my own private life, hypothetically.

    Um, you told tempting to STFU. Aside from bad manners, how is telling someone to stfu being part of a community? Ok done feeding the troll!


  19. #38
    Member Nimue_Allen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora_Sunset View Post

    But really, the number one reason I am drawn to sex work is *because* of the opportunities it gives to spend more time and work around the schedules of loved ones. Maybe I don't have a boyfriend at the moment because of our various issues but if I did, I would value the freedom and time to give to the relationship over working a time-consuming vanilla job for any "societal" standard of a "loving relationship."
    This is very much the case with me. I actually have two partners currently (I'm poly, and yes, they know about each other), and camming (and the other sex work I do) allows me to work my schedule around theirs, and spend time with them and on our relationships in a way that I would never be able to in a "vanilla" job.

    They both know about my job, and both love it. My g/f cams and models with me occasionally, and my b/f has been known to pop onto cam with me for bdsm shows in the past. They are both accepting of my work, and neither of them view it as cheating, nor do they see me as "selling myself". I'm not selling myself. I'm making money from a particular skill-set I am lucky enough to have. How's that any different from making money from another skill-set?

    As to whether the guys who visit my shows (or my dungeon) are cheating.... As a professional, it's really none of my business. I have very strict rules in my personal relationships that I do not get involved with anyone whos partner doesn't know about me, but that's because it's a personal relationship. In a professional relationship, it's nothing to do with me how they run their relationships outside of our time together.
    Last edited by Nimue_Allen; 11-22-2013 at 11:28 AM. Reason: formatting

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  21. #39
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    Can people fucking read my thread properly and refrain from patronizing assumptions which arent any of your business or dont comment at all. Thanks
    Your attitude stinks! You've taken people's opinions (which you asked for) and advice, and seen it as a personal attack, most of the people here have been around a lot longer than you have, maybe it's time to open your eyes more and your mouth less, no one made patronizing assumptions! You need to just relax a little! :-) x

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  23. #40
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by loveshooks View Post
    brief dramaz interlude ~fin~
    seriously y'all, if people keep dragging this back to conflict (ish that really wasn't neccessary in the first place) I'm gonna lock it. everyone who wants to spend the weekend fighting on the internet needs to find somewhere else to do it

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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    I think thats up to everyone to determine in their own relationship. I personally think it is. I would not be happy if I knew my husband was spending our money on another live girl, online or not. in my experience, men who do watch cams develop some sort of relationship with us and I am just not comfortable with my husbabd doing that. Regular porn I am not a fan of because i feel like it gives men unrealistic expectations of sex and women, but I do not consider that cheating. When my husbabd watches porn it doesnt make me mad, just annoys me.

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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    I've never considered it. Maybe because I can't imagine these guys having girlfriends lol. Or if they do, it's not an enviable position. I have no morals :3
    It will remain remarkable in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the conclusion that the content of the consciousness is an ultimate reality - Eugene Wigner

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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by theharlot View Post
    I've never considered it. Maybe because I can't imagine these guys having girlfriends lol. Or if they do, it's not an enviable position. I have no morals :3
    IA
    lol yeah they kinda went out the window when the money started pouring in

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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    I worked as an escort/hooker/prostitute (their all the same to me) before working as a cam girl so I already knew how men operated. I was a bastard child so from a young age I automatically assumed men just don't care. As far as men in relations stroking one out to us on cam behind their significant others back I wouldn't necessarily consider it cheating.. being bad maybe but definitely not cheating. Now if the one i'm with feels the need to partake in such behavior i could careless cause he's not physically inside of her. It'd be another story if he met up with said camgirl cause i'd Lorena Bobbit his ass side note: women are emotional creatures and men, well they think with their cock before their hearts! lol

  31. #45
    Featured Member kittykrane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    I'm with those who think if you are both on the same page, then it's all good. I'm in an open relationship. It wouldn't work if a) we both weren't 100% ok with it and b) we don't moderate our time apart (which isn't often) and make our relationship primary.


    "If you don't stand for anything, you'll fall for everything"

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  33. #46
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by nubienneAW View Post
    I also feel that men who don't mind their women/wives selling themselves (which is exactly what youre're doing) is either because of financial reasons or have a certain outlook on women in general. I'm not saying that you dont find genuine men who simply see it as a vocation but the amount of girls I speak to telling me how theyre supporting their bfs or doing it to keep their family afloat makes me wonder if partners are putting their financial stability before their true feelings.
    Youre asking for respect on youre opinion, while in the meanwhile you sound disrespectfull to me, by saying above quote. Giving two negative options about what a men (or woman I guess, when youre happily together with the same sex; or does this only apply to men? nubienne) who "tolerates" his girl/wife doing this job his reasons are.
    I am in a happy relationship for over 5 years now, and I started working as a camgirl a year ago. My partner can support us both and the reason he lets me do this job is because he wants to see me happy, and he likes me to feel empowered (which financial independancy and working this job gives me). He knows I handle this as a job, there are no feelings involved. Being graduated as a therapist I can keep myself emotional entwined but still having the proffesional distance which is needed to keep the balance.

    To me he proved himself as a even better partner when he was happy for me finding this job, because in this way he showed me his trust in me personally, our relationship and in my talents as a performer. Also he showed me he can stand above his ego by keep trusting in himself as a person and lover, instead of getting jalouse.

    From my perspective it would be cheating if I would develop feeling for one of my members, which by the way would be a very minimal change, and if it would happen they get the banhammer as soon as possible because I am not searching for an friendship or any other emotional attachment.
    Last edited by IvyRose; 11-26-2013 at 09:24 AM.

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  35. #47
    Featured Member IvyRose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    By the way; I do not believe anyone "selling themself" when being a camgirl, since the Self has nothing to do with the job when you take it from psychological perspective.

    "Jung has called the self the central archetype, the archetype of psychological order and the totality of the personality. The self is the archetype of centeredness. It is the union of the conscious and the unconscious that embodies the harmony and balance of the various opposing elements of the psyche. The self directs the functioning of the whole psyche in an integrated way. According to Jung, "[C]onscious and unconscious are not necessarily in opposition to one another, but complement one another to form a totality, which is the self" (1928b, p. 175)." http://www.sofia.edu/content/transpe...eers-carl-jung

    I just portay that part that is wished for from my spending clients.
    Its not who I am, and it is your choise complety, as it is everyday, what parts about youreself you do show and which you keep to yourself.
    It is, probally not even 10% of the Self you will show when working, since the Self has parts you will probally not even want to show to the ones you love and even has parts you dont know youreself; being the unconscious. Also I tend to show only that parts that are desirable when working

    So that is why I dont believe in selling youreself, even if you would work as a prostitute. When doing this job I think you will even get better, for selfprotection, to keep youre Self at a distance so to speak, when being at the job.



    I try not to think about the intensions or background of my clients, because it has nothing to do with me, or the representation of men.
    To me they are all just letters on a screen,
    or sometimes when I do think about it or seeying a cam it helps me the most to see them as lonely. Because than I can feel sympathy and it makes me want to take care of them

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  37. #48
    Veteran Member Camigirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    To the OP. To me it is a form of cheating. While I do cam and this is my way of making money, I would want my man to ONLY watch me. I have to be honest and up front here about how I feel. IF my man chose to do cam I then see it as his source of income.
    So... if he's spending the money on another cam/phone person yes it's cheating on me. I would BE PISSED!
    If he's selling himself in the industry... great!
    Hell, I don't want my man wanking to another woman. If I am not enough for him to get off with, he can hit the road!

    Being honest about ME, I don't speak for any other person her. I feel like a hypocrite. But damn.... I am human.

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  39. #49
    Featured Member MellyMay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camigirl View Post
    While I do cam and this is my way of making money, I would want my man to ONLY watch me.
    ...........
    So... if he's spending the money on another cam/phone person yes it's cheating on me. I would BE PISSED!
    yeah, i feel you. I find myself to fall in this category. I'm not an INTENSELY jealous person, but I'd be bummed.
    mellymay.com

  40. #50
    Veteran Member Mistress Anika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relationships:Has being a camgirl altered your definition of "cheating"? Guilt?

    Cheating (as defined in my relationship) Doing things behind the others back, essentially doing anything that makes you feel you need to hide it. I don't care who he jerks off to, fucks ect but I'll be damned if he cuddles & shares cookies with anyone else. We are emotionally monogamous, we rarely see other people on our own but It's on the table.

    How would I feel about him seeing CamSex or Strippers?
    Well we'd be doing it together or I'd be wondering why he was spending our "entertainment" budget without me. Yes, my concern would only be financial.


    Not to make a personal attack but why would you be doing something that obviously makes you feel cheep? Your embarrassed what you'll tell your Future Husband/children ... Yet those are 2 things that a very important to you. How can you do something that you dont think (or want) someone else to accept you for? When I was young & inlove, my father told me a very simple piece of advice "Never change your whole life for someone" You plan on giving up your job for a significant other when realistically in this day in age, there's very little chance of forever after. I hope you have a very sound exit strategy, in a field that wont require a morality clause.

    As for saying we are selling our selves, everyone sells themselves. When I worked in the corporate world I watched people get passed over because their 'personal brand' was sub par, that they didnt know how to market themselves, didnt know how to stand out from the pack. How is this different? Sure the commodity we're selling is more of a hush'hush topic but also one of the longest running markets (next to booze) At the end of the day each of our has our own goals & how we'd like to achieve them. Mine has nothing to do with being a happy homemaker & wife. I am a business woman, I am an entrepreneur. This was a choice for me, my husband is proud of what I do. Anyone can fuck themselves, It takes a sound business mind to make it all worthwhile.


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