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Thread: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

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    Default Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Sorry if this has already been posted but I am doing a happy little jig here.

    Yes! Yes! Yes!

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supr...laws-1.2471572

    It has been a LONG time since I have been able to say I was proud of anything my country has done. I was kind of losing hope there.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    ^^^ it will be interesting to see what long term effect this will have on Canadian strip clubs


    (snip)"TORONTO (AP) — Canada's highest court struck down the country's anti-prostitution laws in their entirety Friday, including against keeping a brothel.

    The 9-0 Supreme Court ruling is a victory for sex workers seeking safer working conditions because it found that the laws violated the guarantee to life, liberty and security of the person. But the ruling won't take effect immediately because it gave Parliament a one-year reprieve to respond with new legislation.

    Prostitution isn't illegal in Canada, but many of the activities associated with prostitution are classified as criminal offences.

    The high court struck down all three prostitution-related laws: against keeping a brothel, living on the avails of prostitution, and street soliciting. The landmark ruling comes more than two decades after the Supreme Court last upheld the country's anti-prostitution laws.

    The decision upheld an Ontario Court of Appeal ruling last year that struck down the ban on brothels on the grounds that it endangered sex workers by forcing them onto the streets."(snip)

    A literal reading of the above would tend to indicate that, subsequent to the Canadian Supreme Court ruling, it will soon be 100% legal ( under national / provincial law at least ) for Canadian dancers to offer 'extras' to customers, and also 100% legal for the clubowners to profit from 'extras' being offered inside the club.
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-20-2013 at 12:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    If only the "great" USA was not muddled in Puritan anti-sex culture...we might actually get something done for a change.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    good! that's all i have to say

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    If only the "great" USA was not muddled in Puritan anti-sex culture...we might actually get something done for a change
    The 'flip side' of this position, of course, is that without said Puritan culture ( and resulting laws ) limiting the widespread availability of sex for money, some strip club customers are highly UN-likely to continue spending money for low / no contact interaction with dancers !

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The 'flip side' of this position, of course, is that without said Puritan culture ( and resulting laws ) limiting the widespread availability of sex for money, some strip club customers are highly UN-likely to continue spending money for low / no contact interaction with dancers !
    I was just talking about this with a friend the other day. How this may affect the entire industry of stripping in ways that we might never have considered.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    McFuck franchises will appear everywhere, hiring teenage girls at minimum wage to provide fast, inexpensive legal service.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    McFuck franchises will appear everywhere, hiring teenage girls at minimum wage to provide fast, inexpensive legal service.
    Or it could drive all the prices up if they unionize.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The 'flip side' of this position, of course, is that without said Puritan culture ( and resulting laws ) limiting the widespread availability of sex for money, some strip club customers are highly UN-likely to continue spending money for low / no contact interaction with dancers !
    This is an interesting idea: are you saying that if prostitution/brothels were legal, then strip clubs would either A) go out of business due to "something better", or B) become full brothels and the "strip club" would cease to exist?
    I for one am not into prostitution anymore, so I would still want the strip club experience to be available in the event of legalization of prostitution. But what you are saying is that what a customer gets in a brothel is inherently better/more desirable than what he/she gets in a strip club. I actually disagree somewhat here.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    are you saying that if prostitution/brothels were legal, then strip clubs would either A) go out of business due to "something better", or B) become full brothels and the "strip club" would cease to exist?
    I'm not saying that this would happen, but that it 'could' happen. I really don't have enough personal knowledge of the legalized prostitution transition which took place in Germany, Holland etc. to contribute anything solid in the way of 'evidence'. However, from a basic legal and economic standpoint, a few questions do arise ...


    - how many present day strip club customers are willing to spend big money without expecting 'extras' ? If the future 'market' is split between legal brothels and limited contact strip clubs, how many customers will still bother to go to the latter KNOWING that few or no 'extras' are available ?

    - how many present day strip club owners, if faced with the legal possibility of rolling 'sex for money' into their business model at little or no additional cost for club operations, will choose not to do so ?

    - If it becomes legally possible for some dancers in some clubs to offer unrestricted 'sex for money' in addition to their 'normal' entertainment options, how many customers in that club will still be willing to spend big money on other dancers who choose not to similarly offer unrestricted 'sex for money' ?

    - how many present day upscale strip club customers who are reluctant to patronize clubs which blatantly offer ILLEGAL 'extras' ( due to a risk of their being busted for soliciting prostitution ), would drop such reservations if LEGAL 'extras' were available ( with zero bust risk to the customer ) ?

    - if prostitution is legalized but heavily regulated, with certain dancers and certain clubs choosing not to obtain the necessary prostitution licenses etc., will law enforcement then crank up club bust efforts for dancers and clubs still offering limited 'extras' illegally ? It is logical that the clubs and dancers who have made the effort and paid the gov't fees to obtain the necessary prostitution licenses etc. will push for LE to eliminate this now illegal 'competition' !

    The last point speaks to your question in particular ... that in a legalized but heavily regulated environment, both the legally licensed 'brothel' clubs and legally licensed 'prostitute' dancers, as well as local gov'ts and law enforcement, will be strongly motivated to make sure that non-licensed clubs and dancers are no longer allowed to illegally offer 'extras' to club customers. It remains to be seen whether the latter can still attract enough paying customer business to remain profitable, with potential customers knowing for a fact that there won't be any of today's 'extras' available ( or subjecting themselves to a large fine / bust for partaking of 'extras' illegally ). Logically speaking, this will lead to a future environment where some venues will offer all sorts of sex for money, and other venues will offer entertainment only with zero sexual contact, and nothing in between.

    this supreme court ruling has created a potential 'Pandora's Box' situation, and only time will tell what 'jumps out' of that box !!! Specifically, the court has created a one year 'clock' for implementing the legal transition, and probably another year will be required to see how strip club owners and customers react.

    McFuck franchises will appear everywhere, hiring teenage girls at minimum wage to provide fast, inexpensive legal service
    Funny that you should mention this point ... from

    (snip)"Do they get fries with that?

    Zurich is opening its first sex drive-ins tomorrow — nine wooden booths where men can get some McLovin’ with hookers outside of the Swiss city’s downtown area.

    The procedure for the so-called “sex boxes” is vaguely similar to fast-food service.

    Drivers pass a check-in gate and follow a marked route — then place their orders with one of 40 prostitutes, negotiate a price and then drive on to meet up in the covered boink booth.

    Street signs show the way and display the rules: Adults must be alone, drive automobiles rather than bikes, and properly discard their used condoms. Patrons must also keep their lust contained within the boundaries of their designated sex box and avoid the surrounding woods.

    Each of the nine wooden sex boxes accommodates a single car and is equipped with alarm buttons that notify on-premises security.

    “Prostitution is a business. We cannot prohibit it, so we want to control it in favor of the sex workers and the population,” Michael Herzig, Zurich’s social services director in charge of the sex drive-ins, told the UK’s Independent. “If we do not control it, organized crime and the pimps will take over.”

    Men seeking paid hanky panky outside three approved zones around Zurich, which includes the sex boxes, face fines of up to $500."(snip)


    From an investor standpoint, such a setup would require comparatively little capital investment compared to the costs of a strip club. From the girls' standpoint, even if they were required to split customer money 50/50 with the owners, earnings potential in the thousands of dollars per week ballpark would still be possible. And from the customers' standpoint, what could be less 'risky' than driving into the facility, choosing a girl from the 'drive-in' menu, choosing their desired 'services' at a published price, and receiving those services in a secure environment ... an environment that is essentially free of bust risk plus free from potentially being 'recognized' by anyone that is part of the customers' 'normal' lives !
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-01-2014 at 05:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Quote Originally Posted by FasaCorp View Post
    This is an interesting idea: are you saying that if prostitution/brothels were legal, then strip clubs would either A) go out of business due to "something better", or B) become full brothels and the "strip club" would cease to exist?.
    Interesting conversation for new years day. Anyway my guess is that Canada ends up becoming more like Germany / Austria. There are things called "FKK clubs". They are sort of health club / brothels. The man pays the house upfront (around $100) to get in. The man showers and then lounge in bathrobes, the women are usually nude or wearing not much more than a towel. Food is served (free), you buy alcohol. There are a variety of rooms: strip club type room, pool, hot tub, movie theater with porn, massage table, sometimes S&M rooms as well as private rooms. If a guy starts spending time with a women it is $90/30 min, women keeps all of it. CBJ, CFS are included in that fee other stuff is negotiable either for extra money or the woman just considers it part of the service.

    But in addition to those FKK clubs existing. Pure strip clubs exist and thrive. They often having tipping, girls making money selling expensive drinks for their time (as high as $50) and/or lap dances. The customer base are people who could be at an FKK club so the clubs are aimed at partying a lot more with a tease not please attitude. The girls who are willing to do extras work the FKK clubs and don't have to deal with all the seduction / hustle of the strip clubs. The customers who come to the club are looking to have fun not sex. There are also mixed clubs where prostitution is encouraged with designated upstairs rooms, sort of like VIP.

    In many ways it is exactly what dancers have been asking for. In the strip clubs extras are expensive if they are available at all. The customers aren't terribly pushy about extras because there are legal places to get them close to the club.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    ^^^ all true. However, the key question is whether or not the component customers exist in sufficient numbers ... at least outside the comparative handful of large Canadian cities ... to make this 'parallel' business model viable for Canada. Canada is not Germany ... where it's possible for the vast majority of potential club customers to drive to a big city club within 30 minutes ( thanks to Autobahn 120+mph plus cities being located much closer together ) !!! While I might be proven wrong, odds are that Canadian smaller cities won't have the necessary customer base to support both types of clubs at the same time. They'll only wind up with 'sex for money' clubs.

    And then follows the question in regard to how many dancer openings will exist in the big city 'pure strip clubs', relative to the number of 'sex for money' club openings. Unlike today's 'closet' extras situation ( from a legal standpoint, anyhow ), it simply won't be possible for a girl who is unwilling to offer BJ, FS etc. to continue working in a 'sex for money' club ... because both club customers and club management will absolutely expect all girls to 'deliver'. And if the 'pure strip club' a.k.a. upscale 'show' club business model continues to hold, the hiring standards at those no sex show clubs will be extremely high. Together, this is likely to create an 'unemployment' problem for lots of Canadian dancers who do not wish to work as acknowledged full fledged prostitutes ( legal or not ) , but who do not 'measure up' to the very strict hiring standards of the no sex show clubs ... or who do not live close enough to a large Canadian city to make working at a no sex show club a realistic option.
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-23-2014 at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    all true. However, the key question is whether or not the component customers exist in sufficient numbers ... at least outside the comparative handful of large Canadian cities ... to make this 'parallel' business model viable for Canada.
    That's a very good point about lower population density and how it might change things! Well thought out. I checked and it appears an overwhelming majority of clubs in Canada are in cities or near big cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    While I might be proven wrong, odds are that Canadian smaller cities won't have the necessary customer base to support both types of clubs at the same time. They'll only wind up with 'sex for money' clubs.
    I agree that for places that can't support both the large strip club is the one likely to die. OTOH dives still thrive in rural areas in the USA because they end up being an alternative to bars and there are lots and lots of bars. The FKK type structure is not somewhere you stop off for to have a beer. So what you might see in rural areas is the only strip clubs being the old fashioned kind where dancers are working for dollar tips and pulling down a low hourly wage on top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And then follows the question in regard to how many dancer openings will exist in the big city 'pure strip clubs', relative to the number of 'sex for money' club openings. Unlike today's 'closet' extras situation ( from a legal standpoint, anyhow ), it simply won't be possible for a girl who is unwilling to offer BJ, FS etc. to continue working in a 'sex for money' club ... because both club customers and club management will absolutely expect all girls to 'deliver'.
    I'd agree as I mentioned CBJ and CFS were (I assume) mandatory for the women in the FKK clubs I was in. I know of at least one FKK clubs that has a fixed up-charge rate for Condom-anal though I've never been there. And I didn't get any objections to BBBJ for either standard rate or a small up-charge (about $30). Interesting I'm use to USA women who are happy to do just about anything that doesn't spread disease. At the FKK performing even mild S&M /domme activities like a spanking or using a riding crop is something USA dancers are happy to do at no extra charge but a the FKK club this was often a huge up-charge over $100 extra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And if the 'pure strip club' a.k.a. upscale 'show' club business model continues to hold, the hiring standards at those no sex show clubs will be extremely high. Together, this is likely to create an 'unemployment' problem for lots of Canadian dancers who do not wish to work as acknowledged full fledged prostitutes ( legal or not ) , but who do not 'measure up' to the very strict hiring standards of the no sex show clubs ... or who do not live close enough to a large Canadian city to make working at a no sex show club a realistic option.
    Very good point. You might see a huge change over in staff. The strip clubs might become more like the late 80s - early 90s clubs where beauty really really matters and the clubs can attract those kinds of women because there are lower sexual expectations. Stripping goes back to being more about show business and less the sex industry.

    This will be very interesting to see how it plays out. Canada will give many many Americans a good example of what legal prostitution looks like. Also it serves as a better model because it is a more similar country. Right now in America Pro-legalization / decriminalization correlates strongly with education and dwelling in cities so you would think the move is towards legalization. But on the other hand the young are much more hostile than the middle aged so I'm not sure what the long term trend in the USA looks like.
    Last edited by knightwish; 01-24-2014 at 04:23 AM. Reason: poorly written sentence rewrite

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    without attempting to speculate much further ...

    You might see a huge change over in staff. The strip clubs might become more like the late 80s - early 90s clubs where beauty really really matters and the clubs can attract those kinds of women because there are lower sexual expectations. Stripping goes back to being more about show business and less the sex industry
    This might be a 'good' side effect of legalized prostitution in Canada ... for perhaps 10-20% of the Canadian dancers who are able to meet hiring standards in the reduced number of upscale 'show' clubs that will remain after prostitution is legalized. Keep in mind that, with prostitution legalized and regulated, it will no longer be possible for non-prostitute licensed girls to offer 'extras' in non-prostitution licensed upscale 'show' clubs - because the girls and clubs who have fully embraced legalized prostitution will insist on enforcement right along with the Canadian gov't !!! Thus the remaining upscale 'show' clubs will have to find a successful business model that works with 'extras' money removed from the equation ... which is perhaps possible for a comparative handful of clubs in major Canadian cities, exclusively staffed with 'top quality' dancers, who are able to attract a sufficient number of upscale customers that are willing / can afford to spend significant money in the absence of 'extras' to keep this business model in the black.

    With prostitution legalized, with enforcement increased against sex for money being offered without the necessary licensing and fees, and with 'extras' money being a necessary source of revenue for suburban / small town clubs to remain 'in the black', I don't see any way that these clubs can avoid embracing legalized prostitution and still survive financially. That will leave 'clean' dancers presently working at these clubs with a dilemma of embracing legalized prostitution or finding somewhere else to work. Indeed any 'top quality' dancers who don't wish to become outright prostitutes may 'migrate' to the small number of upscale show clubs in large Canadian cities. Legalized prostitution will essentially erase today's 'middle ground', by polarizing future clubs towards two extremes ... no sex for money whatsoever, versus unrestricted sex for money ... as was generally the case in Germany.

    Or put another way, it's likely that once legalized prostitution percolates through Canadian strip clubs, 80-90% of those clubs will embrace the legalized prostitution model ... with 10-20% of those Canadian strip clubs attempting to shift to a zero sex for money upscale 'show' club model. Thus for 80-90% of Canadian dancers in general, and for 99% of Canadian dancers who don't 'measure up' to the hiring standards of upscale 'show' clubs, legalized prostitution will mean becoming a licensed prostitute dancer or leaving the industry.
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-24-2014 at 04:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    @Melanie --

    I agree with you. But let me just say I wouldn't be so certain. The alternative revenue model I was proposing for the small town club is slightly higher drink prices. $6 beer instead of $3 beer, an $8 shot not a $4 shot. There are 70k bars in the United States if even .5% were titty / go-go bars in a post legalization environment, that's a heck of a lot of dancing jobs. We have a lot of bars where men are willing to pay a little bit extra for alcohol to play pool with a hot girl in a bikini with very little expectation they going to cum by the end of the night. In some ways those sorts of clubs are more conducive to the stripper fantasy girlfriend because the relationship starts out with flirting and drinking. The dancer can slowly work up the milage. I have a friend works as a dancer and she has a bunch of regulars who come in, play pool, flirt, do drugs with her and once in a while OTC meet up and my guess is pulls $5-30k / yr from them each in cash and gifts (excluding the drugs). She's about a 5.5 looks wise has great pole skills, doesn't like giving lap dances and still banks.

    Another example is the fork that's happened in the last generation in the dominatrix business. In the 1980s dominatrixes mostly were hookers who specialized in kinky clients. Overtime the industry has forked to where there are:
    • fetishy hookers -- sex with low skills but often a very exciting wardrobe
    • low contact dominatrixes -- who do exclusively S&M work who often have lots of skills / training and expensive equipment
    • foot models who are mostly clean
    • a very small number of dominatrix hookers who provide high contact and high skills for a well above market hourly rate.

    As far as I can tell the non-sexual dominatrixes outnumber the fetishy hookers by a lot. And this is true even though in most places the low contract dominatrixes are still subject to anti-prostitution. A similar model might play out in strip clubs.

    Sex workers often get offended when I say this but IMHO street prostitutes, escorts, strippers and dominatrix have really really different personalities. Which is not to say some women don't cross over but on average the industries attract very different types of women with very different ways of treating customers. I have to think even in a small town environment with working class customers there are going to be guys who want to be made to feel special and loved and not just get off. There are lots of successful strip clubs within a block of very reliable massage parlors.

    Yesterday I was at a grind style club I'd been wanting to try. The dancers were pretty, not gorgeous and young. But they had really no game at all the customers don't demand it. I started to really be in the mood for a good old fashioned topless style romantic dance with her touching my face, running her hands sensually all over my chest or legs, looking into each others eyes... Don't get me wrong if I had gotten a lot more contact I would have had a better night but ultimately what I really was craving by the end was a classic strip club experience. I would have picked an hour of pretend romance over having one of the cuties suck my cock. Maybe those girls confronted with a majority of customers who weren't looking for them to help grind them to an orgasm would get some game?

    So while I think you are probably right, I guess I'm a bit more curious how this plays out. Good conversation though!

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    indeed, only time will tell. It remains to be seen how Canadian law enforcement will treat 'unlicensed' sex for money ( I assume harshly, based on European trends after legalization ). It remains to be seen how Canadian courts will interpret 'sexual conduct / contact' ( which in turn will affect the amount of customer / dancer contact that will be allowed in 'unlicensed' show clubs ). It remains to be seen how club customer dollars will 'redistribute' between the licensed sex for money clubs and the unlicensed show clubs. And, in the final analysis, it remains to be seen how dancer income potentials are affected by that 'redistribution of customer dollars.

    As to your 'bikini bar' alternative, time will also tell. As is typically the case in US states with blue collar bikini bars, dancer earnings potential is typically disappointing, since customers are already paying premium prices for drinks ... and since customers have little expectation of 'extras' ... and since the typical 'quality' of dancers working in such clubs is less than 'top shelf'. Granted there are a few exceptions ... mostly 'bikini' clubs located in high income suburban areas where the club is able to maintain a 'critical mass' of extremely attractive dancers thanks to the high income customer base being able to afford spending considerable bucks on drinks and 'scenery' .

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    Default Re: Supreme Court strikes down Canada's prostitution laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As to your 'bikini bar' alternative, time will also tell. As is typically the case in US states with blue collar bikini bars, dancer earnings potential is typically disappointing, since customers are already paying premium prices for drinks ... and since customers have little expectation of 'extras' ... and since the typical 'quality' of dancers working in such clubs is less than 'top shelf'. Granted there are a few exceptions ... mostly 'bikini' clubs located in high income suburban areas where the club is able to maintain a 'critical mass' of extremely attractive dancers thanks to the high income customer base being able to afford spending considerable bucks on drinks and 'scenery' .
    I agree completely regarding bikini bar earnings. The girls are going to be pulling in a lowish hourly rate. It might be double what they can make as a cocktail waitress at the bar down the street, but only double. The question is what happens from there? They may have the same guy 2-3x per week for several hours since he's spending a $100 not a $1000 every time she sees him. Which means that the fantasy girlfriend thing becomes possible for middle class customers. And that's potentially a huge number of men.

    I have a dancer friend who works in a fully nude club. She is about 5.5 looks wise, great pole skills for a non-las vegas. She doesn't like to do lap dances and mostly spends her time in the club playing pool, drinking and doing drugs with regulars. She does time in the club plus some OTC dates with them and pulls in about $5-30k from each in cash and gifts / yr excluding the drugs. She's banking over $200k, may be one of the highest earners at the club and she probably makes under $20k / yr in lapdance and VIP!

    I could imagine a woman working at a rural bikini bar having a similar experience. One guy gives her a car. Another guy let's her stay in an apartment he owns. She's pulling down $30 / hr at work in wages and tips. She often doesn't have to pay rent, transportation, clothes, her gas, her utilities or her entertainment. She doesn't work long hours so she can be a good mom and with all the offsets she has a rather high standard of living even with a $40-60k / yr job. She might get especially frisky with a regular or even do the occasional car date with a regular. But even the car dates are unlikely to be directly sex for money. The girls aren't looking to make a quick score off the guy who comes to the bikini bar 3x a year but rather are cultivating regulars. The regulars become friends with each other over time and think of the bikini babes as "part of their group". The club owners are thrilled because they also have moderate expectations and love being able to sell so many $6 beers.

    The girls working the brothel down the street make a lot more cash but have to do a lot more with a lot more guys.

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