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Thread: How much do you report (be honest)

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    Default How much do you report (be honest)

    The way I figure it, stripping is a fairly high income all cash business, and I'm wondering, honestly, how much of your earnings do you actually report? I worked as a waitress for a while, and most everyone I knew only claimed around 20-40% of their cash tips in their taxes. Is stripping the same, or do y'all report everything? Sorry if this is super personal, I'm just wondering.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    I report everything that's on my 1099 and an estimate of the cash earned.
    Last edited by arielbriel; 03-15-2014 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    I report everything to IRS because I file my own taxes.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    After discovering what happened to a couple of dancers I knew who were 'caught' under-reporting their incomes, deliberately under-reporting 'cash' income has now become a risky business for dancers. To recap the main 'points' involved ...

    These days the IRS has a bunch of automatic reporting mechanisms in place on the 'spending' side. If a dancer buys a new car, the state motor vehicle agency is going to report the purchase price and the monthly payments ( unless cash purchase ) to the IRS. Similar automatic reporting occurs for other 'spending' items such as tuition payments, contributions to retirement funds, bank and investment account earnings ( thus implied balances ), large money order purchases, large retail transactions etc. Additionally, the IRS now maintains a 'local cost of living' database for every US zip code, which factors in expected local costs of rent, utilities, groceries etc. So even if the IRS does not receive automatic reports of income ( i.e. W2's, 1099's ), IRS computers can still put together the 'spending' side information to quickly calculate that a particular person 'spent' X dollars to purchase a car, plus added Y dollars to their bank or investment or retirement account, plus spent Z dollars on college tuition etc. If IRS computers calculate that all of these 'spending' items, plus typical cost of living in the person's zip code area adds up to say $30,000 ... but IRS computers find a matching tax return which only reported say $20,000 of income ... then red flags will be waived. This situation of course becomes even worse if IRS computers fail to find a matching tax return at all !!!

    At any rate, both of the dancers I spoke of drew IRS attention because they had bought and registered new cars. The IRS computers quickly calculated that the price / monthly payments for those new cars was not 'affordable' based on the amount of income the dancers had ( under ) reported. So they were audited. But now comes the real big risk factor where dancers are concerned ...

    In the absence of 3rd party income documentation via W2s, 1099's etc, all info provided to the IRS by dancers is 'self generated'. So if a dancer who actually earned say $60,000 but 'mistakenly' reported only $40,000 on her tax return is audited ... and deemed to not be 'credible' by the IRS based on her incorrect tax return filing, lack of 'professional' business record keeping etc., there is no authoritative way for that dancer to prove that she 'only' earned $60,000. In point of fact the IRS can create their own 'estimate' of that dancer's 'real' income ... and that IRS 'estimated' amount can be significantly higher than the actual amount which the dancer earned. Arguably, this is the result of certain dancers reporting to mainstream news media that they are earning $1000+ per night etc.

    Back to the two dancers in question. Based on being 'caught' deliberately under-reporting their incomes, the IRS came back with a 'settlement' offer ... which basically 'estimated' that their earnings were $100k per year ( even though they really earned $60k ), that they therefore owed the IRS an additional $30k in income taxes, and that they could either accept the 'settlement' offer or take their chances in tax court. However, going to tax court would also mean that the IRS would 'freeze' the money in their bank accounts, would place a lien against their car titles, etc. until a tax court ruling was handed down. With their bank account money 'frozen', the dancers had no way to afford paying for a tax court attorney, so they really had no choice but to accept the 'settlement' offer and sell their new cars so the proceeds could be used to pay the IRS.

    The point here, of course, is that the possible outcome from being 'caught' deliberately under-reporting income to the IRS can be 'much worse' than simply paying the IRS the actual amount of taxes due on the actual amount of income earned.

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    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    I made nightly deposits of every penny I took out of a club. From there, I drew my top line figure for gross receipts. I kept good records of my expenses and deducted everything I legally could. I paid my quarterly estimates on time and every year I was entitled to a refund which I used as my estimated payment for the quarter.

    Z

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    All of it.

    I have professional licenses that I do not need to come under fire. I want a great record when I go to apply for a mortgage, a business loan or need to claim SSD.

    Interesting benefit that occurred: I got into a car accident. The other driver was highly negligent in driving, had no license and flew through a red light. I was t-boned. I was fortunate that an undercover cop witnessed this, helped me at the scene, and provided testimony during the lawsuit I brought. I sued for my stripper wages - and got them. I used the records I keep for taxes and business, which are as top notch as I can make them and in a system developed over time by my CPA and me, and I used the DJ reports from the club to show the exact number of shifts works and for how many hours per shift.

    A stripper I knew was injured badly in a snow plow accident but could not take the same approach because she never paid any taxes on her stripper income.
    "Don't piss off a motivated stripper."


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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    I invest as much as I can. So trying to hide money means I have less to invest with, because investments are super trackable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyaaa View Post
    Oh, something i did tonight when a guy wanted to give me his number i said 'we can't accept numbers when there's so many people/cameras watching. i'll only accept it if you hide it in a tip.' So he gave me $10. Ha.
    Now that's thinking green!

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Every penny!

    My main goal for next year is to purchase a home and the more money I make, the bigger my mortgage will be.

    Overall, I find that it's more beneficial to report everything you earn. Sure, you'll pay taxes but I'd rather be a functioning member of society that is able to invest than keep some of my money and never be able to do anything with it.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Quote Originally Posted by crystalize View Post
    My main goal for next year is to purchase a home and the more money I make, the bigger my mortgage will be.
    Or better yet, it'll be smaller since you'll be able to put all your money towards your downpayment without drawing attention to sketchy taxes!

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    I report all of my income. I think it's funny in a sad way how so many girls think they can report only a small fraction of their income and still do things like have a nice apartment and buy a new car. LOL

    Right, because the IRS is going to believe that you just magically bought a 30,000 car when your annual income is like 20,000. They're going to believe that fairies come in the night and pay your rent or a house payment that is more than you claim to make in a month.

    Yeah, right. People are so damn stupid sometimes when it comes to taxes.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Indeed the industry has developed a reputation for under-reporting of actual incomes over the years. While that might have had some truth to it a couple of decades ago when IRS spending side investigations required huge amounts of manpower, today spending side investigations start with a key press. While that may have had some truth to it a couple of decades ago when cash could buy anything, today even cash ( some would say especially cash ) has to have a documented history regarding how / where it was earned.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Mel is right. As she almost always is about this stuff. The IRS has been using very sophisticated computer programs for years that track your SPENDING and then work backwards to estimate what level of income is necessary to support that spending level. The bottom line is that you can get away with fudging a little bit , maybe 5 % but I recommend that you declare it all. The flip side of the coin is to take ALL of the deductions you are entitled to. Keep receipts for every tank of gas ( to get to your club or appointments ), hair , makeup, costumes , SOME clothing, SHOES etc. etc. There are numerous posts and threads here ( a lot by Mel ) that spell out what you can and can't deduct.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    i thought that bank statements and taxes weren't enough to get a mortgage these days? i thought it took actual paper documents from work and pay stubs to PROVE your income, not just saying that you make a certain amount on your taxes.
    and yes i know a few girls who use credits/debit cards and checks to buy a ton of shit and take out huge loans in their names and then think they can get away with saying that they didnt' earn anything..so stupid.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^
    You don't necessarily need pay stubs. Independent contractors and freelancers can still get a mortgage.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^ This is a potentially tricky area because there is a "political" element that I want to make sure to completely avoid. Let's just say that there are stricter standards now with regard to issuing mortgages. More or less. For the most part. What it boils down to is that as a borrower you have to show that you are a "good risk" i.e. that you are likely to be able to make your payments regularly and on time. Your credit history is just one part. So is documenting your income. Your tax returns document your PAST income.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^ that's true in theory. However, in the 'real world', the ability of a self-employed 'stripper' to obtain a new 30 year mortgage these days is more difficult than ever. The reasons for this new difficulty are the new regulatory requirements that mortgage lenders both

    A. 'verify' the existence and amount of actual dancing income ... with the only incontrovertible proof being the amount of income reported on past year tax returns, and

    B. 'stress test' analyze the likely ability of a 'stripper' to continue to earn sufficient money to continue to make mortgage payments over the entire 30 year term of the mortgage ... which in 99% of cases requires a different ( future ) income source besides still 'stripping' at age 55.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Now that I'm self employed, I confronted the mortgage problem last summer when I went to refinance. The bank that had held my mortgage since my last re-fi was not interested in refinancing for less than 4.5% because I was self employed. That was with a 800 credit score and a mid-six figure dividend income. Yikes!

    I went to my credit union that had financed me when I was fixing and flipping houses after college and before the great recession. They were happy to quote me a 2.2% rate for 15 years. But, they wanted to see my tax returns and a tax transcript. They also wanted to see the business financials. I had to show that I had six months of expenses in savings. Not just six months of the proposed mortgage payment but all my expenses. I did, so no big deal. I had most of that money in an account with them, so they could easily check it out. They averaged my last two years returns to get an income figure. Once I provided all the information they asked for, they made a quick and affirmative decision and refinanced me at a much lower rate and shorter term. No junk fees either.

    One thing that was important was my personal tax returns showed a lot of income. Lots of self employed people, for tax purposes, report high gross income and high expenses leaving them with very little net. That's fine for lowering their taxes, but awful for trying to qualify for a loan. The bank will take the small net income from self employment and assume that is the applicant's income and base their lending decision on that small number.

    HTH
    Z

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ that's true in theory. However, in the 'real world', the ability of a self-employed 'stripper' to obtain a new 30 year mortgage these days is more difficult than ever. The reasons for this new difficulty are the new regulatory requirements that mortgage lenders both

    A. 'verify' the existence and amount of actual dancing income ... with the only incontrovertible proof being the amount of income reported on past year tax returns, and

    B. 'stress test' analyze the likely ability of a 'stripper' to continue to earn sufficient money to continue to make mortgage payments over the entire 30 year term of the mortgage ... which in 99% of cases requires a different ( future ) income source besides still 'stripping' at age 55.
    So if you have the bank statements AND the income tax statements...does that make it easier to get a mortgage?

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^ bank statements aren't considered to be authoritative 3rd party proof of income ... because the origin of the money deposited into the account remains unknown ( it could have been borrowed from a 3rd party, from 'illegal' sources, for example ). These days, the only authoritative 3rd party proof of income for self-employed persons is previous year tax returns.

    As Zofia posted, bank statements can be helpful for secondary purposes ... i.e. proof of additional assets which helps with the 'stress test' analysis, proof of regular cash flow thus lower 'volatity' for business earnings, etc.

    I would also amplify what Zofia posted in regard to the treatment of self-employed persons by major banks. Regardless of specific credit score, regardless of personal financial history etc., self-employed persons will be classified as 'high risk' simply because they are self-employed. Adding in knowledge that the field of self-employment happens to be the adult entertainment industry ( which Zofia did NOT have to do since she actually operates a brick and mortar 'mainstream' business operation ) bumps up the mortgage lender's perceived 'risk factor' to even higher levels.

    To be inconveniently blunt, in today's mortgage market ( and political climate ) potential mortgage borrowers do not have any 'constitutional right' to receive approval for a mortgage loan simply because they apply for the loan, have the down payment money, and appear to have enough income potential this year to be able to afford making mortgage payments. Mortgage lenders now need to consider their loss risk over the entire course of the mortgage repayment schedule. And that involves such things as evaluating what the mortgage borrower's income potential is likely to be over the entire course of the mortgage loan repayment schedule ( thus the lender wanting to see Zofia's business books ) ... what the mortgage borrower's ability to continue making mortgage payments is likely to be if the borrower becomes sick or injured ( thus the lender wanting to see that Zofia had 6 months worth of normal cash flow already set aside in an 'emergency fund' bank account ), etc.

    From a mortgage lender's standpoint, receiving a mortgage application from a dancer or camgirl who
    a. has less than 2-3 years worth of income documented via previously filed tax returns,
    b. has no worker's comp or health insurance benefits that might assist them in continuing to make mortgage payments in the event that they are sick / injured,
    c. has less than 25% of the purchase price saved up PLUS another 6 months worth of 'cost of living' emergency fund saved up,
    d. has no alternate career options that could provide similar future year earnings potential should they be forced to stop dancing or camming before the term of the mortgage is completed, and
    e. has no equity / assets ( like Zofia's brick and mortar business ) which the lender could potentially latch onto to mitigate potential future mortgage loan losses,
    will probably be considered one of two ways ....
    # 1 an opportunity for the bank to profit from a much above market 'subprime' interest rate mortgage loan, or
    # 2 far more potential loss risk than the lender is willing to assume.

    To further drive home the point of how much things have changed in the mortgage lending industry, I'll let you answer the following questions yourselves. Assume that you have purchased a somewhat below average home with somewhat average property tax rates resulting in $1000 per month mortgage payments ... How will you continue to make those monthly payments if ...

    - you are seriously ill and unable to work for 3 months
    - your club is busted and you lose your dancer's license
    - you get pregnant and are unable to work for 6+ months
    - you are injured and are hit with $100,000 worth of uninsured medical bills
    - 10 years from now the effects of normal aging ( or post-pregnancy body changes, new competition, or personal 'limitations' on what you are willing to offer to customers ) cuts your earnings potential in half

    ^^^ these are the types of things that a mortgage lender is going to be thinking about before approving a 15-30 year loan
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-18-2014 at 04:47 PM.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    Melonie- Everything you say is true but just because it is difficult for a dancer to get a mortgage does not mean it is impossible. The keys are what her bank statements and tax returns say.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^ oh, agreed. But what is almost certainly also true is that she will have to 'jump through more hoops' when applying for the mortgage, and will have to pay a higher down payment and/or a higher interest rate after the mortgage is approved, simply because she is self-employed.

    I would also argue that there are now three real keys toward approval of a future mortgage for self-employed would-be mortgage borrowers ...

    - credit rating in the high 700's ( minimum )

    - having saved up 25% down payment plus closing costs, in addition to having saved up 6 months worth of 'cash flow' in an emergency fund

    - minimum two years worth of tax returns and professional appearing business 'books' proving repeatably high business earnings.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    I spoke to a couple people I know in the real estate and mortgage biz. Some of the concerns we've been talking about can be dealt with by a higher down payment i.e. at least 30%. The more equity you have at the start of the mortgage the lower the risk.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^ yes, that's indeed the case. The point of concern on the part of mortgage lenders is 'net loss risk'. If 20% equity is established via the down payment, the borrower defaults, and the property value has declined 25%, the mortgage lender will 'lose' 5% of the original purchase price of the property ( plus legal fees etc. ). However if 30% equity is established via a higher down payment, if the same scenario were to occur the 'net loss' to the mortgage lender would be zero. However, in some markets, real estate values actually declined more than 30% ... so this isn't a universal solution.

    Also, given that many of the 'closing costs' associated with a new mortgage are of fixed size, and given that the extra costs associated with a mortgage ( i.e. flood insurance ) can be substantial, at some point it makes financial sense to forget about a mortgage loan altogether and simply save up 100% of the price for a 'cash' purchase.

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    A lot of people are having to jump through hoops to get approved for a loan anymore though. My husband is a commercial electrician with very steady employment and a credit score of 780 and no debt. He was shocked by how much harder it is to get a loan now than it was before the recession.
    .

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    Default Re: How much do you report (be honest)

    ^^^ well, besides the new income verification mandates, other new mandates and guidelines have also now been put in place. For example, the HAMP program has set down a de-facto gov't standard which has been re-applied to non-HAMP loans by mortgage lenders ... where total housing costs ( i.e. mortgage payment plus property taxes plus insurance costs ) should not exceed 31% of gross income. Thus no matter how 'steady' an employee paycheck may be, and no matter how high the credit score, and no matter how low the level of other debt, if the cost of the mortgage payment plus property taxes plus mandated insurance coverage exceeds 31% of the gross paycheck earnings amount, odds are that the mortgage will not be approved because it fails the lender's 'stress test' due to total housing costs exceeding 31% of gross income.

    Circling back on topic, this 31% guideline is also a factor in regard to self-employed persons who have some 'discretion' available in terms of their reported business income level ( i.e. choosing not to take certain business expense tax deductions increases official business income level without earning any additional dollars ).

    Again the arguable REAL reason that new mortgages are very difficult to obtain on affordable terms is that the mortgage lenders have near zero financial incentive to loan out money for 15-30 years at a 3.5-4.5% interest rate with 'variable value' real estate as collateral. That money is also capable of earning a 3-4% interest with absolutely zero risk ( and with near zero transaction costs ) if deposited at the FED or invested in US Treasury bonds of equal duration. The earlier practice of mortgages being repackaged into bonds and resold to investors at a profit has resulted in actual losses that have discouraged said investors. And some investors have recently chosen to bypass mortgage lenders as intermediaries and simply invest their cash toward the direct purchase of properties ( with 'earnings' thus coming from rent payments which can be increased in future years, rather than from mortgage payments which can't ). Welcome to the 'new normal'.
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-20-2014 at 12:41 PM.

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