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Thread: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

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    Default Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?


    i was about to make a joke-tweet ending with "#proleproblems", but then i wondered-
    What is the exact definition of "proletariat"...?
    And as a stripper, do I even qualify?

    -------------------------------------------------


    (according to Dictionary.com)

    proletariat: n.

    1. the class of wage earners, especially those who earn their living by manual labor or who are dependent for support on daily or casual employment; the working class.


    2. (in Marxist theory) the class of workers, especially industrial wage earners, who do not possess capital or property and must sell their labor to survive.


    3. the lowest or poorest class of people, possessing no property, especially in ancient Rome.

    -------------------------

    And from Wikipedia:

    The term proletariat is used in Marxist theory to name the social class that does not have ownership of the means of production and whose only means of subsistence is to sell their labour power[10] for a wage or salary. Proletarians are wage-workers, while some refer to those who receive salaries as the salariat. For Marx, however, wage labor may involve getting a salary rather than a wage per se. Marxism sees the proletariat and bourgeoisie (capitalist class) as occupying conflicting positions, since workers automatically wish their wages to be as high as possible, while owners and their proxies wish for wages (costs) to be as low as possible.

    -----------------------------

    So...
    Does that mean...
    A) all strippers who are capitalist independent contractors and NOT wage-workers = bourgeoisie,
    B) all strippers who are salaried employees = proletarians...?

    Are strippers= business owners selling products (the product of fantasy), or are strippers= laborers?
    “Normal is an illusion. What’s normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.”
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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    The real dividing line is the ability to separate your income from your labor. If you must work to eat, proletariat. When you own the means of production it means you have others work for you and make your money on the margins, Bourgeoisie.

    Remember Marx wrote at a time of inflexible class system, so these labels had merit. He saw the worst side effects of the industrial revolution linked with that class system.

    As a philosopher I find his ideas pretty sound, for their time. I am sure he did not see the evolution of unionism, fading of class distinctions and the leveling power of technology coming.

    Now his labels are good names for punk bands, but have little real world meaning

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    i'd say they are neither one. definitely not bourgeoisie though!

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    i'd say they are neither one. definitely not bourgeoisie though!
    Why not? Some of them really seem so! What's bourgeosie to you?
    “Normal is an illusion. What’s normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.”
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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    The pay-scale, tip-share system of waiting and dancing requires you to do too much of the work, take most of the risks, handle too much of the customer relations, then turn around and give too high of a percentage of sales to those who do too little of the aforementioned business to be making that kind of profit. A waitress without tips/without sales makes far less than minimum wage, a dancer with no tips or sales can actually pay to work. Then if you're a top salesman, you turn around and give people money for the work you just did. These 'tip' jobs are the new legal slavery.
    Nope silly, its just a persona that entertains the masses, yourself included. - KS_Stevia

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    I'm not shitting on strippers. I love sex, music, dancing, and fantasy, and the fact a job exists combining these things is marvelous!

    But you have to admit the business model is jacked-up and one only the mob could come up with.
    Nope silly, its just a persona that entertains the masses, yourself included. - KS_Stevia

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    Let's put aside the issue of whether using this terminology today is reductive or anachronistic.

    People who strip come into it as proles. Okay, maybe you have a few rebellious rich strippers, but they almost never make it a career and the point is that they don't need to. Stripping is almost exclusively the domain of people who need fast cash in increments well below seven figures, aka not the bougies. Additionally, the job requires no formal education, there are minimal start up costs, and at the same time it's highly stigmatized, very physical work (yes, we talk, but dances are almost always what's being sold). Additionally, we don't get paid if we need time off. So unless a dancer manages to build enough savings to become independently wealthy (six figures), at the end of the day we have to work to live. Despite the high earning potential, these are all characteristics of blue collar work.

    An even greater signifier of proledom is that we are financially exploited by club owners. On the extreme end, I have to pay $165 just to walk into the door at one of my clubs, and the VIP cuts are $200/685, $400/1685, $500/1985. Does this sound like I have ownership of the means of production? Even in a club with a house fee of $30 with $5 taken out of each $25 dance we are not working for ourselves -- we're working to make the rich richer.

    At the same time, the high income potential can eventually allow a stripper to subvert class structures. This would depend on passive income from investments or obtaining enough capital to start their own (successful) business. Although it's rare, I think this adds to even greater stigma surrounding the business. The potential to overturn class structures by engaging in such lowly prole shit is dangerous to (let's be reductive) the bougies of the world who want to remain the gatekeepers of success.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    Interesting take on that, Doc - I think "slavery" is a really dramatic way to put it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster
    The real dividing line is the ability to separate your income from your labor. If you must work to eat, proletariat. When you own the means of production it means you have others work for you and make your money on the margins, Bourgeoisie.
    Nailed it.

    And really, the lines haven't gotten all that blurry with unionization and technology - if anything, they've become clearer with the advent of day trading and money markets. The class system may be slightly less in evidence in our day to day interactions, but measured by raw wealth, it's worse than ever now.

    Regardless, very few strippers/camgirls are in a position to live without working, so yeah - proletariat. In todays vernacular, I propose that term applies to anyone who can't afford to sway legal outcomes and politicians. I'd love to put "lol" there, but it's not funny.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    I say that strippers are a special section of workers kind of like small businesses and other independent contracters. A small business owner may own the means of production, but if they don't actually work on their business their business will fail financially, so they are still under obligation to work, but they are under obligation to themselves and no one else. Once they have grown their business enough it may become sucessful enough to eventually sustain its owner via passive income. I think the high potential for class mobility in this job is another unique defining factor. Progeoise perhaps?
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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    LMAO @ Progeoise - that's priceless.

    Most small business owners are more "proletariat" than the proletariat - until you reach a certain point, you're working harder and struggling more than the wage-earners you pay, lol.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    It is an interesting thing. If you are a carpenter, you basically work to survive, even if well paid, until you hire others. Same for Mechanic etc. If a mechanic starts selling used cars, all of a sudden his earnings are detached from his work, primarily by his investment[buying the used car]. Same for a landlord, they do work[cut the grass, paint, answer the phone] but the money they earn is not directly related to the work they do. Now this investment may be in labor, you work to grow a business until you need workers then they work for pay and you reap the benefits.

    As for strippers, you can see that in stripping, unless you are a club owner or somehow become a 'stripper pimp' [cue cheesy 70's music and feather boas] you will always work for pay. In whatever way you could imagine to detach your earning power from your actual work is the way to create 'wealth'

    Back to Marx, if you have never read the Communist Manifesto, you should, it is very short[48 pages per amazon], and while you hear a lot, primary sources are always the best.
    Besides, it is a great alternate hustle:

    Dancer: 'so I was reading The Communist Manifesto last week'
    Custy : [head explodes]
    Dancer: [shrug] finishes drink, empties custy's wallet mutters 'fukin prole'

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    Cell Phone Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    An even greater signifier of proledom is that we are financially exploited by club owners. On the extreme end, I have to pay $165 just to walk into the door at one of my clubs, and the VIP cuts are $200/685, $400/1685, $500/1985. Does this sound like I have ownership of the means of production? Even in a club with a house fee of $30 with $5 taken out of each $25 dance we are not working for ourselves -- we're working to make the rich richer.

    At the same time, the high income potential can eventually allow a stripper to subvert class structures. This would depend on passive income from investments or obtaining enough capital to start their own (successful) business. Although it's rare, I think this adds to even greater stigma surrounding the business.
    As for strippers, you can see that in stripping, unless you are a club owner or somehow become a 'stripper pimp' [cue cheesy 70's music and feather boas] you will always work for pay. In whatever way you could imagine to detach your earning power from your actual work is the way to create 'wealth'

    I'll give this topic a shot from a more realistic perspective. Agreed that the key to 'classifying' whether an exotic dancer or camgirl is a 'proletariat' worker versus a 'burgeoisie' mini-capitalist boils down to a single factor. That factor is whether or not their income stream is the direct result of their own daily 'labor', versus their income stream ( or a portion of it ) stemming from 'capital'. And in today's interconnected world, 'capital' is becoming increasingly synonymous with so-called intellectual property.

    It's pretty clear that if an exotic dancer decides not to go into work on a given night, or a camgirl decides not to go online on a given day, and as a result earns zero ... then they fall under the heading of 'poletariat'. However, if that ( feature ) exotic dancer also operates a pay website, or is receiving feature fees from clubowners as a de-facto 'licensing fee' to allow the clubowner to publicize their future club appearance, or if that camgirl is receiving payments as 'royalties' on pre-recorded video views ... then they fall under the heading of 'burgeoisie'.

    Obviously, I figured out very early in my career the basic difference in the two approaches, and tried to do everything I could to minimize the former and maximize the latter !!!


    Once they have grown their business enough it may become successful enough to eventually sustain its owner via passive income.
    this is definitely true regarding 'passive' income from the savings and investments made possible by successful personal labor or business profits ... but it's actually a separate topic given that the ability to save money exists independent of how ( some portion of ) the money was earned in the first place.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-03-2014 at 11:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    melonie pretty much summed it up, nothing more for me to say. we are doing all the labor (and actually paying out to work.) we are laborers. now the club owners are more bourg than we are. if you can sit back and have other people make you money and pay them a tiny percentage then you are bourg ( to me). actually when i think about it, we are more proletariat than i had originally thought.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    Poletariat. Passing up that pun for any other term would be inexcusable.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    if you can sit back and have other people make you money and pay them a tiny percentage then you are bourg ( to me).
    Actually, in 'official' socio-economic terms, people who own this level of 'capital' are neither bourg or prol, they are 'Rentiers'. Historically speaking, this translates into Rentiers = estate owning royalty ... bourg = shopowners, printers, landowner farmers etc. ... prol = laborers. From the 'bottom' up, and free of sugar coating, prol = laborers depend solely on their labor ... bourg depend on a combination of their own ( skilled ) labor plus their ( meager ) capital assets ... while rentiers depend almost entirely on their ( extensive ) capital assets with little or no personal effort expended.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-03-2014 at 11:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    Quote Originally Posted by yinyang View Post

    i was about to make a joke-tweet ending with "#proleproblems", but then i wondered-
    What is the exact definition of "proletariat"...?
    And as a stripper, do I even qualify?

    -------------------------------------------------


    (according to Dictionary.com)

    proletariat: n.

    1. the class of wage earners, especially those who earn their living by manual labor or who are dependent for support on daily or casual employment; the working class.


    2. (in Marxist theory) the class of workers, especially industrial wage earners, who do not possess capital or property and must sell their labor to survive.


    3. the lowest or poorest class of people, possessing no property, especially in ancient Rome.

    -------------------------

    And from Wikipedia:

    The term proletariat is used in Marxist theory to name the social class that does not have ownership of the means of production and whose only means of subsistence is to sell their labour power[10] for a wage or salary. Proletarians are wage-workers, while some refer to those who receive salaries as the salariat. For Marx, however, wage labor may involve getting a salary rather than a wage per se. Marxism sees the proletariat and bourgeoisie (capitalist class) as occupying conflicting positions, since workers automatically wish their wages to be as high as possible, while owners and their proxies wish for wages (costs) to be as low as possible.

    -----------------------------

    So...
    Does that mean...
    A) all strippers who are capitalist independent contractors and NOT wage-workers = bourgeoisie,
    B) all strippers who are salaried employees = proletarians...?

    Are strippers= business owners selling products (the product of fantasy), or are strippers= laborers?
    Good thread, yingyang. I'll expound on definition #1 by proposing that the true dividing line between Proleteriat and Bourgeoisie would be the degree of dependence on, or detatchment from having to "show up for work."
    But, first, I think that we can mostly agree that people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, the Walton Family, etc. epitomize the Bourgeoisie, while anyone who answers to a midlevel boss (regardless of wage) is proleteriat.

    Sorry to burst some of your bubbles, but I put strippers squarely in proleteriat category simply because they are reliant upon their stripping income (eg- "showing up" for work), whereas a true bougeoisie is not.

    Consider that if a stripper were to break her leg, or otherwise be laid up in hospital, she would be making zero income from dancing. Nor would she be able to get hired at a new club, and dance that night. If the same thing were to happen to Warren Buffet, he could just sit back, and enjoy his already set up income stream keep rolling in. He could also monitor and evaluate new investing/income oppurtunities, or have his subordinates do the same.
    I'm taking a break for now, I'll touch upon the fallacy on any business owner being automatically bourgeoisie qualified in a later post.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    ^^^ don't ignore the 'rentiers' ... ... with adult webcam hosts arguably comprising a blatant example.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    I would be highly offended to be called either.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    I think it depends on the dancer's particular situation: (A) she forced into "sex work" by her condition of poverty, or (B) she freely chooses to be a dancer, because she likes to be financially independent, to make her own work schedule, to have flexibility to travel, etc.; and she treats dancing like a business, e.g., she invests a lot of money and time in the gym to optimize her appearance, she takes pride in the skill and art of her dancing, and she develops advanced sales/hustling techniques, etc.

    Also, is she just scraping by making barely enough to subsist on or is she banking and able to afford a nice car, nice vacation trips, nice clothes, etc.

    I would consider this proletariat: a single mom past her prime with little formal education who has no other means of making money and is dancing at a low-end strip club to pay for basic living expenses like rent and food for her child(ren). She is aging and far from being a 'perfect 10,' but, she is trapped in her stripper 'job' (considers it a job, even though she is an independent contractor) with no exit strategy in sight. She will probably turn to prostitution when the club forces her into retirement from dancing by replacing her with a younger dancer. She is part of the "oppressed" working class, forced by her circumstances to sell sexual services for basic survival. Capitalism is not her friend, and, she would likely support a Marxist revolution.

    On the other hand, when I go to high-end 'upscale' clubs, I would consider the women there self-employed bourgeoisie purveyors of erotic fantasy, art and entertainment. They are young, smart, educated, and very attractive. They make good income from dancing and treat it like a business, investing time and money to optimize their attractiveness, employing great acting skills (leaving their custies saying: "Oh, I think she really likes me!") and providing superb erotic entertainment. They have the education and intelligence to pursue other career opportunities, but, they choose dancing because they enjoy self-employment, flexibility, creativity, high earning-potential, the dancer 'lifestyle', etc. They drive nice cars, buy nice clothes and have money to travel. Would these types of dancers rise up with Marxist revolutionaries to overthrow our Capitalist regime? Probably not.
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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    TBC................. As promised in earlier post, I did some web searching. An interesting thing that I found was that Bourgeoisiein pre-industrial age denoted the middle class. Since OP is referring to mid 19th century and later context, I'll list some "bullet points" on the newer definition of "Bourgeoisie"

    >> Social class owning means of production

    >> Societal concerns are value of property and preservation of capital [B]in order to assure the perpetuation of their economic SURPREMACY in society. (emphasis mine.)


    >> Control means of production and do not live directly by sale of their labor.

    >> SURPREMACY: The quality or state of having more power, authority, or status than anyone else.

    These 4 bullet points are germane to my upcoming points, but first, I'll mention that 2 classes/types of Bourgeoisie have been defined as follows:

    Haute>> Industrialists, financiers

    Petite>> Shopkeepers, self employed, artisans, lawyers.

    Since several dancers, or cammers are self-employed, they would seem to qualify as petite bourgeoisie. If they are at a point in life where they focus more on the value of their passive investments than they do on how much they'll make on their next cam session, they would seem to have at least an asterik checkmark by 2nd and 3rd bullet point. Yet one can see that many in the petite class vs haute class still must be concerned with selling their labor (or skills) to make a living. Like the average dancer depending on dancing for income- if a mom and pop convenience store owner were to have their store destroyed by a tornado, their income would be adversely impacted. If the same thing happened to a single Walmart store (out of thousands), do you think the Waltons are going to sweat as much as the individual convenience store owner ? Indeed, many "business owners" put in a lot more hours for maybe marginally better monetary reward than several salaried workers.

    So, to be "real" bourgeoisie requires checking off ALL 4 boxes. IMO, its more a matter of degree, than of kind in this case. A retired dancer living off her investments may think well of her investing prowess. She might even happen to own ~$50K of stock in the company that I work for. Whether or not she buys, sells, shorts, whatever, will likely have nary an effect on my job security. But the things that key corporate officers do (or don't do) could have a very profound effect on myself, or the community that has many company people living there. Put another way, 2000' (1000') in some cases is minimum elevation to be called a mountain. Yet to speak of such mountains in the same breath as Mt. Everest, or even mountains in the Alps, Andes, or Rockies chain that are much taller. So, I'll say that most strippers are proleteriat, with some of the more highly successful ones being petite bourgeoisie. Class dismissed, time to head to club...............
    Last edited by minnow; 04-16-2014 at 11:08 PM. Reason: corr.
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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    Sex work in general is one of the few ways left for social mobility, which is one of the reasons I believe that.certain Elites find it so threatening.

    If your hot, but poor and keep away from drugs, sex work of various types will get you into the middle class. If you unattractive, male, and poor in general your pretty well fucked, unless you get really lucky.

    Really successful strippers can even end up in the 1% (which I believe requires one make over 190,000 dollars per year). Honestly making it from poor to a 1%er is extremely improbably any other way now in North America.

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    Default Re: Strippers: Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie?

    ^ While I don't agree that stripping (alone) can take you from poor to the 1% (except for Melonie, who know a hell of lot about investing), I agree that it could provide the means to get there, such as the financial resources to get a university education, or the financial resources to start a small business.
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