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Thread: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

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    Thumbs down El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    El Salvador is one of five Latin American countries, along with Nicaragua, Honduras, Dominican Republic, and Chile, that does not allow any form of abortion, in any circumstance — and scores of women have been imprisoned for suffering miscarriages.
    Earlier this month, feminist and pro-choice groups launched a campaign to officially pardon 17 women who have been convicted of aggravated homicide after being admitted to public hospitals with failed pregnancies.
    On April 1, the campaigners protested in the streets of San Salvador and organized a procession starting at Ilapongo’s Rehabilitation Center For Women, where the accused women are being held.
    The organizations also petitioned Salvadorian Congress, filing an appeal under the Special Law for Appeals of Grace, which is allowed to grant pardons, and could do so in this case if all three State powers — legislative, executive and judicial — approve.
    here is a link: https://news.vice.com/article/el-sal...n-who-miscarry
    http://action.rhrealitycheck.org/pag...rce=agrupacion
    and a link to sign a petition to free the women and bring justice:



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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Disgusting and highly immoral. Does the USA give aid to these anti women countries? if so that should be pulled.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    I remember in 2012 some southern state on the east coast (wish I could remember) had proposed law charging women who miscarry.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    There are politicians in the USA who feel any woman who miscarries should be investigated for criminal activity. If they are found negligent for whatever reason they want them charged with manslaughter. Others want to include charges if a woman is harmed by someone else and it results in a miscarriage. I agree with that part if the woman is intentionally harmed by someone resulting in a miscarriage, but if it involves something like a car accident do you still go after them for vehicular manslaughter? If it was a DUI or something then yes, that would be criminal. What about a basic fender bender though? It can be a slippery slope.
    Last edited by Bone; 05-12-2014 at 05:22 AM.
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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    All of which( that it was suggested in the USA) are pretty messed up, but by posting here, I want to steer attention towards the biggest issue and actively try to overcome it by signing a petition, which hopefully will be seen by a government leader and change those laws. While the possiblity of that happening anywhere in the south is bad, its actually happneing NOW for women in el salvador - maybe they are cam girls, maybe they are home makers. it could happen to anyone.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    in the interest of equal time, Sharia Law is arguably even worse. And aspects of Sharia Law have arguably been allowed by certain judges in certain areas of the USA. See

    Please understand that I'm not trying to make any particular point by posting this, other than to point out that the underlying content of this thread is subject to political interpretation.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-11-2014 at 09:38 PM.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Quote Originally Posted by Bone View Post
    There are politicians in the USA who feel any woman who miscarries should be investigated for criminal activity. If they are found negligent for whatever reason they want them charged with manslaughter. Others want to include murder charges if a woman is harmed by someone else and it results in a miscarriage. Things like car accidents could be considered involuntary manslaughter for example. Punching or intentionally hurting a pregnant woman could lead to murder/attempted murder charges.
    idk, that last part i kind of agree with. if i were pregnant ( say pretty far along) and some guy punched me in the stomach, and killed my baby i'd want him charged. absolutely.
    but then abortions are illegal if you are very far along as well.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Agreed Simone. I look at someone who punched a pregnant woman, caused her to have a miscarriage etc much different than the other situations. If I was pregnant and really happy and someone caused me to miscarry I'd want that person charged. Otherwise Bone, I do agree with you but luckily most people see through those morons.

    Melonie that is scary and have relatives in England and France and they are terrified of that. I do not want sharia law anywhere in the USA.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    It's not just happening in Latin America. It's happening in the United States.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...murder-charges

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    That's horrifying Eagle. Why am I not surprised the state was Mississippi? That state has the worst record for rights for women.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    I completely agree with intentionally harming a woman who is pregnant. I should have clarified a bit more. I updated it.
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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Geez, what's next, attempted murder for using birth control?

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    in the interest of equal time, Sharia Law is arguably even worse. And aspects of Sharia Law have arguably been allowed by certain judges in certain areas of the USA. See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3660813.html

    Please understand that I'm not trying to make any particular point by posting this, other than to point out that the underlying content of this thread is subject to political interpretation.
    This is one of the few times I disagree with Melonie.
    I dont know what you mean by equal time or that Sharia Law has been "allowed". Sharia Law can be used as a defense just as any religious law can. That falls under freedom of religion. That does not mean that the country has adopted those religious laws as our own. Sharia Law has never been successfully used in the defense of a violent crime.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amy-su..._b_876965.html

    "How and when is it used in U.S. courts?

    Sharia is sometimes consulted in civil cases with Muslim litigants who may request a Muslim arbitrator. These may involve issues of marriage contracts or commercial agreements, or probating an Islamic will. They are no different than the practice of judges allowing Orthodox Jews to resolve some matters in Jewish courts, also known as beth din.

    U.S. courts also regularly interpret foreign law in commercial disputes between two litigants from different countries, or custody agreements brokered in another country. In those cases, Islamic law is treated like any other foreign law or Catholic canon law."




    What IS happening in this country is ALOT of bills being proposed to make miscarriage illegal. Utah, Georgia, Kansas, Mississippi, all have had bills proposed specifically targeting miscarriages. Not to mention the numerous person hood of fetus bills that have been proposed which would have unintended consequences by making alot of medical procedures illegal. The most extreme of which haven't passed thankfully. But then they just propose them again.

    So yeah I am not scared of Sharia Law in America. I am scared of the war on women in the American Congress.
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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Add this as yet another reason to be completely against ANY restrictions on abortion.

    I'm even against charges specific to harming a fetus in utero, because I think that it's a slippery slope. I view the fetus as a part of the mother, and aborting it as her choice - much the same way I feel about people having the choice to cut off their arm. Often not a good idea, but still their choice.

    The way I'd view harming/killing a fetus in utero is as aggravated assault on the mother. I'd see it as an aggravating factor calling for a sentence towards the high end, but I'd keep the formal crime as one of assaulting the mother.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Sharia Law has never been successfully used in the defense of a violent crime.

    ^^^ well, not really ... from

    (snip)Calgary mom who strangled daughter gets suspended sentence

    Aset Magomadova placed on probation for three years

    CALGARY – The Calgary mother who killed her teenage daughter by strangling her with a scarf more than three years ago will not have to spend a day in jail, a judge ruled on Thursday. But, in suspending the sentence of Aset Magomadova and placing her on probation for three years, Court of Queen's Bench Justice Sal LoVecchio said the penalty can still meet the ends of justice. "At first blush (a suspended sentence) may sound like a get out of jail free card. It is not," emphasized the judge. "The court has said the act in question does not merit a period of incarceration. What the court has done is reserved or to use the word of the statute, 'suspended' judgment on that point for a period of time on conditions. If the conditions are satisfied, then the individual will not be sentenced (snip)

    technically though, you are correct in that the murderous mother wasn't found 'not guilty' of the crime via a Sharia Law defense. She simply received a 'wrist slap' punishment for it.

    There are also many incidents where first level US judges have found 'creative' ways to avoid imposing harsh ( sometimes any ) sentences on Sharia related violent crimes. However, so far at least, it appears that enraged state prosecutors have managed to find less Sharia supportive 'backup' at the appellate / state supreme court level. Even so, enough 'creative' court rulings are slipping past the extra effort and expense of being appealed to higher courts that several US state legislators are trying to pass new laws that will force first level state judges to bypass the 'creative' stuff in favor of US law based conventional decisions and sentences.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-12-2014 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Quoting a Pamela Geller website is like quoting a David Duke website. She is an extreme racist who sees a terrorist in everyone with an ounce of arabic blood in their veins. Almost every article is about how evil Isalm is which means we have to take rights away from Arabic people.
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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    ^^^ oh, agreed ... but irrelevant for our purposes. Nonetheless the Calgary news story is true. The Calgary mom received 3 years probation for murdering her daughter via a Sharia sanctioned 'honor killing'. I actually tried to still find the news story online via a more 'mainstream' source. However, by 'pure coincidence', mainstream media didn't seem to give the original story much attention.

    And that brings us back to the original point I was trying to make ... that this thread topic is subject to political interpretation. The significant difference between the miscarriages stories and the Sharia stories, of course, is that, by a similar 'pure coincidence', mainstream media has chosen to pay much MORE attention to the 'investigation of miscarriages' stories.

    Also, in regard to recently introduced US legislation regulating abortions, keep in mind that there was in fact a 'catalyst' which arguably prompted this wave of new legislation ... . This news story also received 'selective' mainstream news coverage.

    However, per Americans may soon have a second chance to learn more about this story.

    (snip)The filmmakers claim that Hollywood has been reticent to tackle the Gosnell story because it shines a negative light on abortion, though they're confident they can find a home for their film once it is finished. ***

    The case of Gosnell was huge news in conservative and pro-life circles, with proponents claiming that the mainstream media paid little attention to it. Some reporters, in fact, regretted their decision to ignore or downplay Gosnell's trial.

    McAleer also accused Kickstarter of a liberal bias when he first tried taking his crowdfunding effort there. After several delays and requests for changes to the text of his campaign, he moved to Indiegogo(snip)
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-13-2014 at 03:46 AM.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Calgary is in Canada, not the US. Also, the mother received a light sentence because the judge ruled she was acting in self-defense, not because of 'sharia'.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...ticle-1.467852

    -snip-
    The mother, an immigrant from Chechnya, said she was acting in self-defense after her daughter viciously attacked her with a chair and threatened her with a knife.
    -snip-

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    ^^^ I should have known better than to even attempt to raise a 'soft' comparison, because the inevitable 'nitpicking' will undoubtedly succeed in completely distracting from my original point ... which you now force me to state bluntly ( and at considerable risk ) ...

    Disgusting and highly immoral. Does the USA give aid to these anti women countries? if so that should be pulled
    Who says it's immoral. Not the citizens of these central American countries, the vast majority of which are Catholics who happen to feel that abortion is a bad thing. At the same time that calls were being made to stop US aid to these central American countries based on their 'anti woman' stance on abortion / legal status of a fetus, no similar call was made to stop US aid to 'anti woman' Muslim countries, a number of which happen to feel that killing women for committing adultery is an acceptable practice, but which also generally allow abortion up to 120 days without question, under Sharia law.

    In other words, the topic of this thread is not about 'anti woman' activities. It is in fact political. Beyond that, the OP made a specific request to motivate support for a particular political 'cause'.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-13-2014 at 11:47 AM.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Actually the thread topic is about miscarriage, not abortion. Women going to jail for a naturally occurring tragic event. Even women who are anti-abortion can have a miscarriage. What laws jail men for any sort of involuntary physiological occurrence?

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    In point of fact, it is actually about the legal / societal status of a fetus ... which in turn directly factors into related areas such as abortion and investigation of reasons for miscarriage ... which is highly political in nature. I'm trying to avoid 'nitpicking' as much as possible, but if you do some detailed reading on the miscarried women being investigated / jailed stories you'll find that attempted abortion, drug abuse, and other deliberate activities on the part of the mother that are intended to have adverse effects on her fetus etc. factor heavily.

    Perhaps I have more sensitivity to this because of the fact that I am now living in a 'central American' country where the locals are overwhelmingly Catholic and where local laws reflect the Catholic interpretation that a fetus is more than a 'blob of protoplasm' from day one. Sharia law considers a fetus to become more than a 'blob of protoplasm' at 120 days. US and Canadian law / courts don't directly address this issue, but have a mixed bag of situational interpretations ( as in the Unborn Victims of Violence Act referenced above ).

    Personally speaking, to each his own. But the flip side of that means that my US tax money shouldn't be used as an instrument to attempt to impose a 'foreign' legal / societal viewpoint upon countries whose people clearly disagree with that 'foreign' viewpoint.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-13-2014 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    El Salvador's private hospitals have performed thousands of abortions. Every criminal charge has come from public hospitals serving the poor. It's not about the status of the fetus, it's about to which class of society you belong.

    I'll await your link to an article professing the majority of these women intentionally induced their miscarriage. In the meantome:

    http://m.bbc.com/news/magazine-24532694
    Last edited by Dirty Ernie; 05-13-2014 at 02:31 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    OK ...

    (snip)On March 14, 2009, 31 weeks into her pregnancy, Nina Buckhalter gave birth to a stillborn baby girl. She named the child Hayley Jade. Two months later, a grand jury in Lamar County, Mississippi, indicted Buckhalter for manslaughter, claiming that the then-29-year-old woman "did willfully, unlawfully, feloniously, kill Hayley Jade Buckhalter, a human being, by culpable negligence."

    The district attorney argued that methamphetamine detected in Buckhalter's system caused Hayley Jade's death. The state Supreme Court, which heard oral arguments on the case on April 2, is expected to rule soon on whether the prosecution can move forward.(snip)

    also ... from

    (snip)Another woman, Bei Bei Shuai, has been imprisoned for the last three months without bail in Indianapolis, Indiana, charged with murdering her baby. According to police records, the 34-year-old woman attempted suicide last December 23 by ingesting rat poison after her boyfriend abandoned her when she was 33 weeks pregnant.

    Shuai was rushed to the hospital and survived, giving birth to her baby the next week. The baby died four days later, and in March Shuai was charged with murder and attempted feticide.(snip)

    (snip)Illinois was the first state to charge a woman with manslaughter in connection with a stillborn baby. Prosecutors claimed the baby died as a result of high levels of cocaine, but a grand jury refused to indict. Texas, New York, Arizona, Hawaii, Utah and California are among the states with similar laws on the books.

    In Riverside County, California, police authorities have declared prosecutions of mothers addicted to methamphetamine as a “top priority.” (snip)


    Arguably, mainstream media coverage of Central American stories on this topic are politically motivated. Arguably, there is no serious interest in 'helping' Central American women. Instead, there is a political interest to indirectly drum up opposition to the increasing instances of US investigations and prosecutions.

    And while you probably won't see this in US mainstream media, UK media is pretty clear about the political component ... from

    (snip)Women's rights campaigners see the creeping criminalisation of pregnant women as a new front in the culture wars over abortion, in which conservative prosecutors are chipping away at hard-won freedoms by stretching protection laws to include foetuses(snip)
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-13-2014 at 03:56 PM.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ I should have known better than to even attempt to raise a 'soft' comparison, because the inevitable 'nitpicking' will undoubtedly succeed in completely distracting from my original point ... which you now force me to state bluntly ( and at considerable risk ) ...



    Who says it's immoral. Not the citizens of these central American countries, the vast majority of which are Catholics who happen to feel that abortion is a bad thing. At the same time that calls were being made to stop US aid to these central American countries based on their 'anti woman' stance on abortion / legal status of a fetus, no similar call was made to stop US aid to 'anti woman' Muslim countries, a number of which happen to feel that killing women for committing adultery is an acceptable practice, but which also generally allow abortion up to 120 days without question, under Sharia law.

    In other words, the topic of this thread is not about 'anti woman' activities. It is in fact political. Beyond that, the OP made a specific request to motivate support for a particular political 'cause'.
    But it is immoral because they are being jailed for miscarriage, not abortion. I have mixed feelings on abortion and do not support tax dollars used for it but that's not the case here. Miscarriage is a horrible thing and occurs in many women. My sister in law is very pro life yet she had a miscarriage of a baby she badly wanted.

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    Default Re: El Salvador is imprisoning women who miscarry

    ^^^ not wanting to dwell on this, since it distracts from a US-centric focus, but here's the actual situation in El Salvador ... courtesy of


    (snip) from Chapter II of El Salvador’s reformed Penal Code, dealing with “Crimes Against the Life of Human Beings in the First Stages of Development,” penalizes women who induce their own abortions; give their consent to someone else to induce an abortion; doctors, pharmacists or other health care workers who practice abortions; persons who encourage a woman to have an abortion or provide the financial means to obtain an abortion; and persons who unintentionally cause an abortion. According to an October 2010 shadow report to the United Nations Human Rights Committee, Report on Violations of Women’s Human Rights Due to the Complete Criminalization of Abortion:

    El Salvador’s restrictive abortion laws were further solidified in 1999 with a constitutional amendment defining a human being “from the moment of conception".

    For good measure, and to make sure these laws were strictly enforced against apparently dangerous women trying desperately to control their lives, the country established a policing apparatus to prosecute, investigate and denounce any suspicious activities in public hospitals and other places in the country."(snip)


    Put simply, via a constitutional amendment, El Salvador enacted a total ban on abortions. Subsequent to that, El Salvador put in place a mechanism to investigate 'suspicious' activities and prosecute those who violate the country's abortion ban. Miscarriages are thus investigated, for 'obvious' reasons.

    While I personally don't agree with this, it is nonetheless the 'will' of the El Salvadoran people. I also don't personally agree with Sharia Law countries condoning 'honor killings' etc., but that is nonetheless the 'will' of the people of those predominantly Muslim countries ( or at least the males ). From their own viewpoints, both El Salvadorans and Sharia Muslims would consider the US approach to abortions and 'honor killings' to be immoral !

    Circling back to my earlier point, it would be understandable if, under a general concern for 'women's rights', mainstream US media and women's rights groups were to target both the 'abortion ban' Central American countries and the Sharia Law Muslim countries. However, this is obviously not the case. Arguably, the 'abortion ban' Central American countries are being targeted for reasons involving US politics.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-14-2014 at 03:40 AM.

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