Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

  1. #1
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Since this topic comes up repeatedly at SW, here's some new info ... starting with a study just released by the Federal Reserve ... from


    (snip)"In a recent Economic Synopses essay, Alexander Monge-Naranjo, research officer and economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, examined the recent growth in student loan debt in the U.S. over the period 2005-2012. As of March 2012, student loan debt stood at $870 billion and had surpassed total credit card debt ($693 billion) and total auto loan debt ($730 miillion).

    In addition, Monge-Naranjo found that the distribution of student loans by debt levels had shifted, with the share of borrowers with loan balances in excess of $10,000 increasing. Increases were greater at higher levels of debt:

    •Only 3 percent of borrowers in 2005 owed more than $100,000. By 2012, that fraction reached 6.2 percent.

    •The share of borrowers who owed between $150,000 and $175,000 rose from 1.7 percent to 3.7 percent.

    •The share who owed between $175,000 and $200,000 went up from 0.6 percent to 1.5 percent.

    •The share of those owing more than $200,000 went up from 0.2 percent to 0.6 percent.

    While Monge-Naranjo noted that “high levels of student loan debt pose no problems as long as the investment in education has high returns and the loans are repaid,” he also indicated that some borrowers may suffer adverse effects in the future, such as difficulty obtaining other forms of credit.(snip)


    followed by analysis / commentary from Karl Denninger ... from

    (snip)While Monge-Naranjo noted that “high levels of student loan debt pose no problems as long as the investment in education has high returns and the loans are repaid,” he also indicated that some borrowers may suffer adverse effects in the future, such as difficulty obtaining other forms of credit.

    Really?

    The time during which the loan is out and you have to make the payments doesn't "pose a problem"?

    That doesn't inhibit your ability to buy other things during that time on an inevitable basis?

    That pressure doesn't come at the time when you are just starting a career and your prospects are the most-shaky and unproved?

    What's worse is that this claimed "analysis" (as with the other screamers claiming that college degrees are a great value even if you go into debt) all relies on two further factors, neither of which is a good gamble:

    •You finish on-schedule. If you take 6 years instead of 4 cost and thus outstanding balance goes up 50%. Does the math still work at 150% of the claimed cost? Maybe, maybe not, but you're betting it will!

    •You finish at all. Statistically speaking this isn't such a great bet either. Indeed only approximately six in ten students complete in six years, not four. What happens to the other four? They typically don't complete at all.

    Here's the ugly reality. According to the Department of Education (yes, official government statistics) you are only 50% likely to finish "on plan" (and thus on-cost) within four years at a private institution (the nice expensive ones!) and ~30% likely to do so at a public (state-funded) college.

    In other words the only way you get to being 50% likely to hit the so-called "planned" expense numbers (and debt numbers if you borrow) is if you to go to one of the tony private schools. The odds of you doing so at a public university are three in ten.

    You are less than 60% likely to finish in six years at a public institution and ~65% likely at a tony private one. If you're foolish enough to attend a for-profit private college, it's about 40% in six years. Put another way six out of ten who enter a for-profit private college fail.

    Why isn't it considered consumer fraud to not disclose this up front in the college course catalog and before you apply and spend money on the application process (and all the rest)? Don't you think that enticing someone to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that has a better than even odds risk of never being completed should come with a very prominent and clean warning of these risks before the incoming student signs on the dotted line?

    The Fed's paper, of course, like all of those arguing that a degree offers "great value", begin from a false premise -- that you already have the degree!

    For the High School grad contemplating entering college this an intentionally deceptive metric. That ought to be treated as fraud when used to sell you on the premise of going to school.

    The only actual means of evaluating whether college is a good investment is to look at outcomes for all who enter, not just those who finish four years later - particularly when half or more of those who enter do not complete their program of study "on plan" and four in ten don't manage to do even after expending 150% of the expected time and cost.(snip)


    In previous SW discussions on the topic of the 'value' of a college education, we have basically compared the one major factor which the Federal Reserve's analyst latched onto ... whether or not the post-graduation earnings potential provided by the college degree is 'worth' the cost of tuition plus 'lost opportunity' costs ( i.e. working / earning less than would otherwise be possible because large amounts of time must be devoted to studying - a significant factor where dancers and camgirls are concerned ). Indeed, where lots of different college majors are involved, the 'value' of the degree obtained ( in terms of available jobs / increased paychecks ) already falls short of the total tuition and 'lost opportunity' costs which must be 'invested' to obtain the degree.

    However, as pointed out by Mr. Denninger, that comparison makes an assumption that the college student actually graduates, and also assumes that graduation takes place according to the originally planned timetable. Dep't of Education stats show that American college students actually accomplish this ~50% of the time at private colleges, and only 30% of the time at public colleges !!! Obviously, taking longer than the originally planned timetable to complete a degree adds to the total tuition cost, and adds to total student loan principal and interest payments, but also adds to the 'lost opportunity' costs.

    To top this off, a significant number of college students ( 35-40% ) don't graduate at all !!! This of course creates a situation where they still owe student loan debt and interest payments, but don't have the college credentials to qualify them for higher earning jobs.

    Comments ?
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-28-2014 at 09:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bone's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    161
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 99 Times in 56 Posts
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    I will add that the report does not include additional costs medical students have to endure, especially for those pursuing an advanced degree to become doctors, practitioners, surgeons, etc. During their time in school they are required to attend something called Clinicals. Clinicals are basically forced labor without pay. MD/Phd level graduates will perform between 2000 to 4000 hours of clinical work in addition to being full time students. Once they graduate they move through the Residency and Fellowship stages of their careers. These are considered training periods and the doctors are paid horribly during this time while being required to work insane hours. When you break down their hours worked to their pay they can be making less than $10/hour. (I can confirm this as I happen to be married to a doctor who comes from a family of doctors. She made less than $40k her first year of Residency but averaged over 65 hours a week).

    And they must also carry malpractice insurance during the entire process which can be insanely expensive, ranging from $10k to $25k+ a year which they get no aid for.
    -It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others!
    -It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black!
    -The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures!

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Bone For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    God/dess Jay12's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hill country.
    Posts
    2,926
    Thanks
    1,653
    Thanked 1,896 Times in 955 Posts
    My Mood
    Stressed

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    ...this is why I went to college in Puerto Rico.

    NO COLLEGE DEBT!!!!!!





  5. #4
    God/dess simone87's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    5,171
    Thanks
    7,361
    Thanked 9,469 Times in 3,228 Posts
    My Mood
    Cheeky

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    the american education system is a huge racket.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to simone87 For This Useful Post:


  7. #5
    Senior Member Bone's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    161
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 99 Times in 56 Posts
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    the american education system is a huge racket.
    The 70's and 80's set the tone for the state of the system today. A certain Cowboy actor turned President did everything in his power to destroy the CA college system, then moved to destroy the federal department of education, and cut as much funding as possible not only for colleges, but students as well. His legacy continues to haunt the USA.
    -It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others!
    -It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black!
    -The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures!

  8. #6
    Banned
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    11,037
    Thanks
    1,891
    Thanked 5,124 Times in 3,086 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Part of the problem is the dismantling of vocational programs and pushing everyone to attend colleges. Many years ago those kids at the bottom of the academic scale in school were pushed to learn trades instead of college. Even when I attended high school those kids not expected to attend college attended a trade school during the day to learn things like cutting hair or mechanics. That trade school is long closed. Colleges now offer remedial classes to those who shouldn't be there to begin with or useless degrees like women's studies. The result has been too many kids dropping out with debt and too many others getting degrees that are worthless. I often see jobs that used to be recent high school graduate jobs now requiring a degree. Many people working at Wal-Mart have degrees apparently.

  9. #7
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    I guess that I was most surprised to find out that ...

    - ~40% of Americans who start college don't actually graduate

    - 47 million Americans owe student loan debt

    - ~12% of Americans with student loan debt owe $100,000+

    - average student loan debt owed is now around $27,000, carrying a monthly payment of just over $300 ( for 10 years ... at today's historically low interest rates )

    - the total amount of money Americans owe in student loans now exceeds the total amount owed on credit cards, as well as the total amount owed on auto loans.

    It was also more than a bit disturbing to find out that the interest rates charged on student loans 'reset' periodically ... with an increase from the present 3.86% to 4.66% coming on the first of July for undergraduate Stafford loans. Thus, unlike a 10 year mortgage loan, the actual amount of future monthly student loan payments is subject to future change. See . Also, interest rates charged for grad student loans are about 1.5% higher than for undergraduate student loans.

    Additionally, it was disturbing to find that a 1.072% 'origination fee' is added to the loan principal owed for undergraduate Stafford loans.

    Also, according to Forbes / TransUnion , more than half of existing student loans are currently in 'deferment'. This means that required monthly payments are not being made, and that additional ( imputed interest ) charges are being added to the loan principal owed. Similarly, the gov't has made available a number of 'Income Based Repayment' plans which limit the 'acceptable' monthly student loan payment size to 10 or 15% of actual net income ... with the consequence that what started out to be 10 year term student loans can wind up hanging around for 20-25 years thanks to ( imputed interest ) charges constantly being added to the principal amount owed.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-28-2014 at 01:55 PM.

  10. #8
    Senior Member Bone's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northern IL
    Posts
    161
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 99 Times in 56 Posts
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    Part of the problem is the dismantling of vocational programs and pushing everyone to attend colleges. Many years ago those kids at the bottom of the academic scale in school were pushed to learn trades instead of college. Even when I attended high school those kids not expected to attend college attended a trade school during the day to learn things like cutting hair or mechanics. That trade school is long closed. Colleges now offer remedial classes to those who shouldn't be there to begin with or useless degrees like women's studies. The result has been too many kids dropping out with debt and too many others getting degrees that are worthless. I often see jobs that used to be recent high school graduate jobs now requiring a degree. Many people working at Wal-Mart have degrees apparently.
    That has a lot to do with the state of vocational jobs as well. Many fabrication and manufacturing jobs are now down over seas. Larger devices are shipped piecemeal and assembled once they get here. Metal welding is a prime example. 10+ years ago trained guys could bring in $20-$30/hour and it is by no means easy work. These days they are lucky to even have a job, let alone a good paying one due to job saturation. The same can be said for true auto mechanics. Modern cars are manufactured in ways that parts are meant to be replaced, not fixed. This is especially true for body work. You do not need highly skilled people to turn a wrench and tighten a bolt. Most dealerships don't even employe many ASE Certified mechanics. They run them through some BS training and call them Dealer Certified which means nothing.

    It is a sad state of affairs as it reflects on our economy and education. Seems what schools produce these days are worker drones beholden to banks and giant corporations, owing more and making less.
    -It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others!
    -It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black!
    -The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures!

  11. #9
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Seems what schools produce these days are worker drones beholden to banks and giant corporations, owing more and making less.
    Arguably, where dancers and camgirls are concerned, this is a 'double whammy'. On one hand, many present and future potential customers will be diverting their ( limited ) future incomes toward student loan repayments which are larger and/or longer, instead of being able to spend that money for private dances and paid webcam !!! On the other hand, dancers and camgirls who are taking on tuition costs / carrying student loan debt will have to divert their own money toward tuition / student loan payments instead of saving / investing that money.

    Of course, this also circles back to the fact that 'lost opportunity costs' for high earnings potential dancers and camgirls who attend college are typically MUCH higher than the 'lost opportunity costs' for high school graduates working at WalMart. Where the WalMart worker dropping from 40 hours per week to say 20 hours ( to provide necessary study time ) amounts to say 20 * $9 * 52 = an extra $9,300 per year in 'lost opportunity cost', a dancer or camgirl dropping from 40 to 20 hours per week might amount to 20 * $25+ * 52 = $26,000+ per year in 'lost opportunity cost'.

    Of course, the 'lost opportunity cost' of attending college is seldom actually accounted for !!! This never fails to amaze me where dancers and camgirls are concerned, since the 'lost opportunity cost' involved to attend college can easily exceed the actual cost of tuition !!! Or put another way, reusing the above example, the dancer or camgirl graduating after 4 years of college is actually $26,000+ * 4 years or $104,000+ in the 'hole' in regard to 'lost opportunity costs' resulting from not working the additional 20 hours per week that would have otherwise been possible had she not needed that time for study. Had that $104,000 actually been earned and invested, it would generate something on the order of $4,000 in passive income every year for the rest of the dancer's / camgirl's life plus allowing her to pass on the original $104,000 to her children ( or use it to fund retirement etc.). Thus to 'break even' on attending college, not only will the graduate dancer / camgirl need to earn enough additional money to cover the cost of repaying tuition / student loans, but she must also earn an additional $4,000 per year on top of that to break even on the lost passive earnings, and must also earn yet another $104,000 / ~40 years = $2,600 per year to 'replace' the original unearned $104,000 .

    Are there 'professional' jobs out there that can provide this level of additional income to allow a dancer or camgirl to actually come out 'ahead' by obtaining a college degree if 'lost opportunity costs' are accounted for ? Yes there are ... but there aren't many of them, and the types of majors required to achieve those high pay rates often require a lot of work to be able to graduate successfully in the first place, plus a lot of work / pressure to actually perform the 'professional' job successfully after graduation. And even in majors where such high paying 'professional' jobs are ( still ) available today, there is no guarantee that those 'professional' jobs will continue to exist or continue to pay well over the course of the next 40 years.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-28-2014 at 03:01 PM.

  12. #10
    God/dess audrey_k's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,542
    Thanks
    1,043
    Thanked 3,893 Times in 1,568 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    ^You always talk about these 'lost opportunity' costs Melonie and I don't understand your argument. You're assuming that EVERY girl who cams or dances is going to continue to do that for the rest of their life when I seldom think that is the case. The thought of stripping in my 30s makes me want to crawl under the sheets and die. I know many ladies on here do it and my hats off to you, cause I couldn't deal. I would be so burned out after 10 years of dancing, I've honestly never been able to make it more than 2 without taking a break. So personally in my situation, and anyone in a similar one, I think the lost opportunity cost applies to NOT going to college and simply dancing. Even if I had just put off school and waited until I was ready to retire and gone back to my degree, no program would accept me in my 30s, I'd be fucked! Plus, I'm honestly making WAY more money now that I'm 24 with a degree than I was at 19/20 without one. Customers prefer me older and smarter, and the way I interact with them has entirely changed. I was more of a wanna-dance girl at 19/20 and rarely got big tips or did hours of VIP, it was all about my sex appeal. Now I frequently do VIPs with customers that don't even involve me taking my clothes off, just sitting and listening to them rant about their problems or insecurities, and they love that I have a hell of a lot more to talk about.

    In regards to the article, to graduate with 200,000 in debt... that is fucking insane. Unless that applies to multiple degrees, you would have to be crazy to take on that much debt. I owe 30,000 and it freaks me out it's that high. I think one of the problems is that people are going to private school who shouldn't be going to private school. If you go to a state school, get some financial aid or scholarship and work through college, it should be manageable to graduate without any debt. It's one thing to go to a private school because it's a top 25 school, it's another thing to go to a mid-level private school and graduate with 50,000 in debt. Like, the New School I think is the most expensive university now, it's 60,000 a year, and it's not even that great a school.

  13. #11
    Banned
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    11,037
    Thanks
    1,891
    Thanked 5,124 Times in 3,086 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Quote Originally Posted by Bone View Post
    That has a lot to do with the state of vocational jobs as well. Many fabrication and manufacturing jobs are now down over seas. Larger devices are shipped piecemeal and assembled once they get here. Metal welding is a prime example. 10+ years ago trained guys could bring in $20-$30/hour and it is by no means easy work. These days they are lucky to even have a job, let alone a good paying one due to job saturation. The same can be said for true auto mechanics. Modern cars are manufactured in ways that parts are meant to be replaced, not fixed. This is especially true for body work. You do not need highly skilled people to turn a wrench and tighten a bolt. Most dealerships don't even employe many ASE Certified mechanics. They run them through some BS training and call them Dealer Certified which means nothing.

    It is a sad state of affairs as it reflects on our economy and education. Seems what schools produce these days are worker drones beholden to banks and giant corporations, owing more and making less.
    Very true. Manufacturing jobs were the backbone and they provided those with a decent wage. Now many jobs are done overseas or here with illegal workers.

  14. #12
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    ^You always talk about these 'lost opportunity' costs Melonie and I don't understand your argument. You're assuming that EVERY girl who cams or dances is going to continue to do that for the rest of their life when I seldom think that is the case. The thought of stripping in my 30s makes me want to crawl under the sheets and die. I know many ladies on here do it and my hats off to you, cause I couldn't deal. I would be so burned out after 10 years of dancing, I've honestly never been able to make it more than 2 without taking a break. So personally in my situation, and anyone in a similar one, I think the lost opportunity cost applies to NOT going to college and simply dancing. Even if I had just put off school and waited until I was ready to retire and gone back to my degree, no program would accept me in my 30s, I'd be fucked! Plus, I'm honestly making WAY more money now that I'm 24 with a degree than I was at 19/20 without one.
    If a dancer can't / won't be able to put in a ~10 year full time effort at dancing, then the 'lost opportunity costs' are going to be incurred regardless. That takes them off the table as a 'variable' ... but the fact remains that the girl passed up the opportunity to 'bank' $260,000 or whatever during those 10 years ... thus passed up the opportunity to earn an extra $11,000 or whatever per year in passive income from age 30 going forward. This is the famous 'seen versus unseen' principle from economic theory.

    In regard to dancers having higher incomes at age 24 than at age 20, it's difficult to just assume that obtaining a college degree is as much of a dancer earnings factor as, say, the dancer simply honing her 'sales' techniques via experience, or customers simply responding better to more 'mature' dancers.

  15. #13
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Travel Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    new data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics forecasting US jobs growth by 'specialty' for the next 10 years

    and

    cherry-picking those projected high volume 'growth' occuptions which will also carry a median income level of $50,000+ ( to arguably justify the cost of obtaining the pre-requisite college degree ), it boils down to just a comparative handful of specific jobs ...

    - registered nurses $65k
    - general and operations managers $95k
    - teachers $53k
    - accountants and auditors $63k
    - software / applications developers $90k
    - management analysts $79k
    - wholesale and manufacturing sales reps $54k

    ... and a similar comparative handful of more generic 'growth' occupation categories ...

    - computer and mathematical $76k
    - architecture and engineering $74k
    - legal $75k
    - healthcare 'practitioners' and technical occupations $60k
    - life, physical and social science $60k
    - business and financial operations $62k
    - ( senior ) management $94k

    The BLS web pages also offer up a long list of other projected 'growth' occupations. However, the median pay rate for those other 'growth' occupations is typically less than $30k per year. Median pay rate for ALL 'growth' occupations including the $50k+ per year occupations I listed above is only $35k per year !!!

    Additional 'professional' commentary from BC ...

    (snip)With record debt to wages and GDP, withering costs of "health care", and fully mature and costly urban/suburban/penturban infrastructure build out and associated high fixed costs, a growing majority of millennials simply cannot afford to begin or sustain the urban/suburban, auto-, oil-, and debt-based lives as "consumer units".

    And neither will a majority of Boomers be able to sustain their lifestyles into late life. The situation is made worse in that the US economy has not created a net new full-time private sector job per capita in 30-35 years.

    Automation of services sector employment now occurring at an accelerating rate will exacerbate conditions for paid employment and purchasing power, especially for women who make up a disproportionately larger share of employment in medical services (80-85%), "education" (80%), gov't (60%), and financial services (60%).

    Consequently, women face loss of paid employment as a share of the work force and population on a scale that men have experienced in the goods-producing sector since the 1970s-80s.


    The relative payoff to a bachelor's degree peaked in the 1990s and will continue to decline hereafter for the rest of millennials' lifetimes, especially those in the bottom 90% of households who cannot actually afford a post-secondary credential.

    Many argue that the jobs lost in the aforementioned sectors will be replaced by even better jobs in the helping, human touch, and other occupations that we cannot predict; but this presupposes, incorrectly in my view, that the loss of tens of millions of jobs will allow an economy that still produces sufficient level and growth of after-tax, real purchasing power, discretionary income, and tax receipts to support what are more often than not public sector or costly private sector services for the top 1-10% .(snip)


    Manufacturing jobs were the backbone and they provided those with a decent wage. Now many jobs are done overseas or here with illegal workers.
    As BC points out, yesterday's loss of backbone manufacturing employment is now quietly migrating to today's loss of backbone 'service sector' employment. And as BC also points out, 'automation' is increasingly being used as a follow-on to offshoring and hiring of illegal workers as a means to reduce US labor costs. Ironically, both of these will now predominantly begin to affect American women in 'service sector' jobs in a manner similar to the way American men were predominantly affected by the initial wave of manufacturing job losses that started a generation ago.

    Just a couple of health care related 'automation' examples to illustrate the point ...




    .. which certainly brings into the question the future 'value' of obtaining a degree in pharmacy or laboratory science. Circling back on topic, what will be potentially even worse, of course, is a future pharmacy graduate who is not only unable to find a 'decent paying' pharmacist job after graduation thanks to 'robo-pharmacist' automation, but who also must pay back $100k in student loan debt !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-31-2014 at 08:08 AM. Reason: t

  16. #14
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,416
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,370 Times in 934 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    What is missing here is the option of dancing and going to college. I did that and a lot of girls I know did/do that. In my case, I certainly did miss out on some dancing income especially during the fall and spring semesters when I only worked two or three nights a week. Still, I paid for college, I bought a car, I paid for half my brother's tuition and books for college and graduated with money in the bank. Oh and no student loans.

    XOXO
    Z

  17. #15
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    313
    Thanks
    166
    Thanked 279 Times in 137 Posts
    My Mood
    Devilish

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    [QUOTE=audrey_k;2634321] The thought of stripping in my 30s makes me want to crawl under the sheets and die. I know many ladies on here do it and my hats off to you, cause I couldn't deal. I would be so burned out after 10 years of dancing, I've honestly never been able to make it more than 2 without taking a break.


    This is the reality of some of us on SW..The only thing is you can not crawl under the sheets and die..You have to move forward. I have a college degree and it still doesn't help me in my 30s. It is difficult as hell to make it especially if you do not want to become an extras girl. Its horrible really. And the economic issues where I live have killed business. Even the customers say so..

    It is offensive when girls in their 20s look down upon the older dancers but truthfully you cant change an opinion...All I can do is say that if someone was to continue to stay in dancing for a while due to money or other available jobs sucking then the 20 year olds one day may find themselves the 30-40 year old dancer they thought that they would never be. Just a few thoughts...

  18. #16
    God/dess Jay12's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hill country.
    Posts
    2,926
    Thanks
    1,653
    Thanked 1,896 Times in 955 Posts
    My Mood
    Stressed

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    ^^^I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who are past 35 and still strip.





  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Jay12 For This Useful Post:


  20. #17
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    What is missing here is the option of dancing and going to college. I did that and a lot of girls I know did/do that. In my case, I certainly did miss out on some dancing income especially during the fall and spring semesters when I only worked two or three nights a week. Still, I paid for college, I bought a car, I paid for half my brother's tuition and books for college and graduated with money in the bank. Oh and no student loans.
    Agreed that this approach is a very workable option. However, as you state, it does involve 'lost opportunity costs' in the form of dancing income that was NOT earned during fall and spring semesters because you chose to devote time and effort toward studying instead of toward dancing. What dollar figure would you place on your own 'lost opportunity costs' by not working those extra 2-3 nights per week for 8 semesters ? $ 40,000 ? $60,000 ? more ?

  21. #18
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    313
    Thanks
    166
    Thanked 279 Times in 137 Posts
    My Mood
    Devilish

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^^^I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who are past 35 and still strip.
    U seem to be one of the few and I thank you.

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dezire For This Useful Post:


  23. #19
    Banned
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    11,037
    Thanks
    1,891
    Thanked 5,124 Times in 3,086 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    If an older dancer can still look fantastic (and I know there are a few here)then I think it's cool. Sadly I danced with a few who were too old to dance and had no other skills. Those are sad situations. Then again I've known quite a few younger dancers who had no business dancing either.

  24. #20
    God/dess audrey_k's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,542
    Thanks
    1,043
    Thanked 3,893 Times in 1,568 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    [QUOTE=dezire;2636420]
    Quote Originally Posted by audrey_k View Post
    The thought of stripping in my 30s makes me want to crawl under the sheets and die. I know many ladies on here do it and my hats off to you, cause I couldn't deal. I would be so burned out after 10 years of dancing, I've honestly never been able to make it more than 2 without taking a break.


    This is the reality of some of us on SW..The only thing is you can not crawl under the sheets and die..You have to move forward. I have a college degree and it still doesn't help me in my 30s. It is difficult as hell to make it especially if you do not want to become an extras girl. Its horrible really. And the economic issues where I live have killed business. Even the customers say so..

    It is offensive when girls in their 20s look down upon the older dancers but truthfully you cant change an opinion...All I can do is say that if someone was to continue to stay in dancing for a while due to money or other available jobs sucking then the 20 year olds one day may find themselves the 30-40 year old dancer they thought that they would never be. Just a few thoughts...
    I think you read my post the wrong way...

    I never said anything negative about women dancing in their 30s, nor have I ever made a comment like that on this site. I have friends who are in the 30s and are still dancing and they make more £ than I do! I specifically said "my hats off to you" because I have never had the mental stamina to be strong enough to dance for more than 2 years at a time. All I meant is that I know myself and it would not work for me, just like caming doesn't work for me... I don't look down upon cam girls, but I couldn't do what they do because I couldn't work from home on my computer, I wouldn't be able to motivate myself and I like being in a club and interacting face to face (stripping and possibly escorting are the only options that would work for me). Everyone is different and some people love stripping and are career-strippers, they're great at saving up their money, making bank, retiring early, or are just strong enough to dance for 20 years... but I am not. I have a lot of issues with this job. Which is why I knew I needed to get a degree and make sure that I don't have huge resume gaps so that when I wake up and realize I'm at the end of the line, dancing wise, I have other options... and therefore, even if I did lose out on some income by going to school, I feel like it was worth it (that was the point of my post). I also loved going to college and had a great time and learned so much and grew as a person, I love what I majored it and it has improved my ability to excel in my field, so it definitely feels worth it to me.

  25. #21
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    313
    Thanks
    166
    Thanked 279 Times in 137 Posts
    My Mood
    Devilish

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    ^I think it was the crawling under the sheets and dying if u were still dancing in ur 30s that kinda made everyone that is doing it currently look bad. The hats off was a nice compliment but it sort of sounded bad. But its ok I know you couldnt do it and thats what u meant.

    I understand having issues with this job too. There are some pluses but many minuses. I do have a degree but sadly degrees do not guarantee good paying jobs upon completion these days for many people. If u are one of the lucky few who will have a great job waiting for u then consider yourself fortunate.

  26. #22
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Sadly I danced with a few who were too old to dance and had no other skills. Those are sad situations.
    Sadly, I have worked with hundreds of such dancers over the years. Generally speaking, they wound up in a '35 years old, broke, with few options' scenario because ...

    - they chose to absorb huge 'lost opportunity costs' earlier in their dancing careers by deciding to 'party' or 'laze out' rather than showing up at their club to work ( additional shifts)

    - they chose to spend large amounts of their earnings on 'consumables' ... i.e. fancy cars, designer clothes, ( non-working ) vacations, drugs etc. ... often almost as fast as they earned it

    - they failed to save and invest any significant amount of their earnings

    - they lacked the 'discipline' to make it through first semester community college courses

    I make the assumption that virtually all SW dancers have enough intelligence, personal responsibility, and personal discipline, to not allow such a situation to develop. Nonetheless, there is a large segment of dancers working today who don't !!!


    I do have a degree but sadly degrees do not guarantee good paying jobs upon completion these days for many people. If u are one of the lucky few who will have a great job waiting for u then consider yourself fortunate.
    Again, it's one thing to choose to absorb 'lost opportunity costs' in exchange for devoting study time toward obtaining a college degree that will ( hopefully ) offer a future payback on that 'investment' in the form of a relatively high paying 'straight job' career opportunity after graduation. It's another thing to choose to absorb 'lost opportunity costs' because an acquaintance is throwing an awesome party, because some friends offered an invitation to Mardi Gras / ski trip / cruise / whatever for a couple of weeks, or simply not showing up at the club because this month's rent and other bills are already paid thus additional dancing earnings aren't needed 'immediately'.

    Circling back on topic, as Dezire points out, these days there is indeed a huge question mark involved as to whether investing the time, tuition money, and 'lost opportunity costs' involved for a young dancer to obtain a college degree still results in a positive payback on that investment. Certainly, taking on student loan debt to cover tuition payments swings the payback equation toward the negative.

    Also, based on current projections, future jobs which offer the highest probability of a positive payback on that investment appear to be limited to a small number of STEM related majors. And, based on statistics, few of these lucrative majors seem to appeal to women ( with exceptions being registerered nurse, nurse practitioner, and teacher ). But that's a topic for a different thread.

    In regard to 'lost opportunity costs' I keep hammering at this concept because, frankly, most people were never taught to think about it. After all, if a decision is made that eliminates a different opportunity ( i.e. higher earnings from a different source ) as a consequence, that different opportunity was never pursued ... those higher earnings were never earned ... a portion of those higher earnings were never saved / invested ... future interest and dividend earnings from savings / investments were never received. Most people simply view the different, never pursued, opportunity as a 'mental exercise' that doesn't involve any real money, thus doesn't carry any real cost, if the decision was made not to pursue that different opportunity.

    But financially speaking, this is NOT the case !!! Conventional thinking views such decisions as a choice between doing something versus not doing anything ( or anything different ). But in fact, virtually every real world decision actually comes down to a choice between doing something versus doing something different.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-04-2014 at 03:51 AM.

  27. #23
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    313
    Thanks
    166
    Thanked 279 Times in 137 Posts
    My Mood
    Devilish

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    [QUOTE=Melonie;2636898]





    Circling back on topic, as Dezire points out, these days there is indeed a huge question mark involved as to whether investing the time, tuition money, and 'lost opportunity costs' involved for a young dancer to obtain a college degree still results in a positive payback on that investment. Certainly, taking on student loan debt to cover tuition payments swings the payback equation toward the negative.


    Having already obtained some sort of degree myself I can tell you there is no way I would further my degree and rack up any additional debt. Not at my age when discrimination due to age can be a factor now. Sure if I ever end up in a scenario where I can go back to school with the help of a well to do partner I may reconsider, but no way am I going to dig myself a huge hole in debt when many college graduates with more advanced degrees than the ones I have are working at starbucks bc they can not find jobs(not that there is anything wrong with starbucks--making those drinks is a talent imho). Im glad I have my degrees bc I finished something that took me forever.. I experienced completion which is nice even if it isnt bringing me big bucks I have to try and do the best I can with the situation Ive found myself in, and that isnt always easy.

  28. #24
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    170
    Thanks
    44
    Thanked 140 Times in 72 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Sir Ken Robinson has some great TED talks about this.

    I see three huge problems with college in the U.S. Lets assume you graduate, on time, and owe a reasonable amount because your worked through school or had rich parents.

    - Some really good paying jobs dont require any college, if you have skills. Programming for example, even Google/Apple will hire a very skilled programmer without a degree. It varies by company culture of course. H.P. on the other hand is notoriously difficult to get any job without one.
    - At least half of the degrees on offer are worthless, beyond being interesting dinner conversation.
    - The lucrative jobs that people dream about are all graduate level work. Don't expect to land that dream job with no real world experience without at least a masters. In lieu of a masters in some fields you can substitiute a crap load of experience.

  29. #25
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Interesting Study ( and commentary ) regarding Student Loans

    Quote Originally Posted by Bone View Post
    The 70's and 80's set the tone for the state of the system today. A certain Cowboy actor turned President did everything in his power to destroy the CA college system, then moved to destroy the federal department of education, and cut as much funding as possible not only for colleges, but students as well. His legacy continues to haunt the USA.
    Where is the Moderator ? I've been pointed , warned , cautioned and threatened for MUCH milder posts than this ! So have other posters.
    If this isn't blatantly political then nothing is. If this is permissible then I am requesting a CLEAR rewriting of the rules that I and others have been doing our best to comply with. Fair is fair !

Similar Threads

  1. Student Loans
    By JadeeWadie in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-20-2020, 05:39 AM
  2. advice about student loans
    By audreyalice in forum Life Support
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-08-2013, 06:00 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-16-2008, 12:07 AM
  4. Those of you who have paid off student loans
    By Susan Wayward in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-30-2007, 11:01 PM
  5. Student Loans
    By hardkandee in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-05-2007, 09:49 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •