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Thread: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

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    Default UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    What are your thoughts on this guy Elliot Rodger and the follow-up conversations that have come up involving misogyny/ feminism?

    I dunno about you, but its all over my Tumblr/ FB newsfeed.

    And I should probably add a disclaimer that this thread will likely involve triggers...

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    One disturbing thing I read today, excerpts from a forum that the shooter posted in:

    http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-da...ium=socialflow

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    And then there is this other one, where there may be some hope:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...and-nerds.html

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by domina View Post
    What are your thoughts on this guy Elliot Rodger and the follow-up conversations that have come up involving misogyny/ feminism?

    I dunno about you, but its all over my Tumblr/ FB newsfeed.

    And I should probably add a disclaimer that this thread will likely involve triggers...
    The POS kid was a poster on Bodybuilding.com forums, a forum I frequent to answer Qs and such as I'm in "in the business" and all that. The BB.com "Misc" section is huge. It's also filled with a bunch of kids who do nothing but complain about women, how evil they are, how much they hate them (essentially angry and resentful most women/girls wont give them the time of day) and so forth.

    The sad thing is, this is the norm on that forum, and it's one of the largest forums on the 'net. and if you want to get an inside look at what a many young males think about women, look there. Now, this kids posts were removed from BB.com forums for obvious reasons, but you can see some of them here if interested:

    https://storify.com/NewSecular/ellio...ding-com-forum

    As I said, his comments are the norm there in my experience and I have seen it grow over time over the years. Now, obviously, 99.9% of the kids there making such comments are just venting and being idiots, but it's an eye opener to see how so many young men seem to feel about women these days. It's an insight into how clueless, coddled, and delusional many people (in this case young men) are today and in the context of knowing at least one went off the rails, puts it in a new perspective for me.

    In one comment he said:

    "Women don't deserve rights. They are evil, sadistic beasts who whore themselves out to degenerate men and ignore the men who actually deserve them."

    These are not uncommon comments for that forum. In fact, they wouldn't even get a second glance from most posters, and if they do, it's usually to agree with such
    comments.
    A cunning linguist...

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Creepy! I wonder what kind of relationships these people have with their mothers and fathers, how/ whether or not that affects their twisted world views...

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    i think its a huge issue, and it goes a lot deeper than just this person's psychosis. young men feel entitled to women's bodies, and treat them like objects to be acquired. they feel it is there "right" to get laid or have a girlfriend. a boy slit a girl's throat a few weeks ago for not accepting his prom request. this is a huge cultural issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. that's my take

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I mean, if they objectify you, they can justify killing you. I just disdain the type of assholes who write a "manifesto" and kill. Who the fuck do they think they are writing a manifesto? The kind of people with the egoism to think they know best and the disconnectedness from society which furthers their entitlement complex.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    A few points

    First, 'men' do not feel the way this guy did. A small percentage surely do, and they are backed up by an army of 12 year old internet trolls. This is not PAkistan or India

    Second, while many people feel frustrated with their interactions with other people, the infinitely vast majority are not violent. Certainly I have have had times where I have been frustrated and angry with the opposite sex's treatment of me, and had there been internet chatrooms at the time, I may have vented there. That is all it would have been, venting.

    Lastly, with all the high minded rhetoric about men and women revolving around this event, tell me who did he kill?............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

    4 MEN
    2 women

    He was a sick young man, he would have latched on to some reason to kill people, this week this was it.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    A few points

    First, 'men' do not feel the way this guy did. A small percentage surely do, and they are backed up by an army of 12 year old internet trolls. This is not PAkistan or India
    Excellent points and people do need to keep it in context. However, I do find young men showing a level of anger toward women seems to be growing. What would have been a few idiots saying such things, has become common, if not the norm in some circles per above. You have a large % of young people - men and women - with an exaggerated sense of entitlement that extends to how young men view women. When you combine that with psychosis, you can get violence of this nature. But, as I said above, vast majority venting idiots with no violent intentions. I do think misogyny has been increasing as a reflection of their generally exaggerated sense of entitlement, and most of it simple frustration. I'd guess some studies in the works as this event seems to have galvanized many to take a closer look at this particular trend. It may simply be the latest manifestation of the "angry young man" syndrome.

    Had it myself at one time, but I can say I always loved women no matter how much they may have frustrated me.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    Second, while many people feel frustrated with their interactions with other people, the infinitely vast majority are not violent. Certainly I have have had times where I have been frustrated and angry with the opposite sex's treatment of me, and had there been internet chatrooms at the time, I may have vented there. That is all it would have been, venting.


    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    Lastly, with all the high minded rhetoric about men and women revolving around this event, tell me who did he kill?............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

    4 MEN
    2 women

    He was a sick young man, he would have latched on to some reason to kill people, this week this was it.
    I don't disagree with any of that and it's good context.
    A cunning linguist...

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    He sounds like most of my young cam custies. Entitled, and secretly hate women, mainly because they can't get laid.
    That's why I would never meet any of my custies.. EVER!!

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    "it’s deeply disturbing that people are so eager to associate mental illness with mass violence, yet refuse to associate misogyny with killing women and thinking of them as objects". yes he killed men as well, but only hated them because they "possessed" what he didn't..women. his killing spree was brought on by his hated for women because of his entitlement. not ALL men are like that, absolutely not. but like i said, there are enough "men" out there like that, that a huge percentage of women have been raped, stalked, cat-called, harassed, beaten, hounded because they put a guy in the "friend zone", etc. i'd say this is a problem and ignoring and making up excuses isn't going to help matters. young men scare me a lot more than older ones in this regard~ i looked up the story on youtube and the comments were frightening! " that's what you get for putting guys in the friend zone girls! you deserved it!" but of course nobody takes these comments seriously, until something like this happens.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    http://markmanson.net/school-shootings

    Just read this one today, which takes the argument away form feminism/ entitlement issues and focuses it more on lack of human contact/ empathy.

    "According to the FBI, mass shootings (defined as shooting events that kill at least four people) occur on average every two weeks in the United States."

    That seems like A LOT! Doesn't it??

    I also wonder, if in any industrialized society, will there always be a small fraction of the population who obsesses over violent revenge plots, and then a smaller fraction of those who actually do it? In other words, is this sort of a natural occurence, for the current system/ paradigm we live in?

    ------------

    also, re: St.Slutface, oldster, and Will

    this part from this Mark Manson article seems to respond to what you're saying-

    "But this “witch hunt” we go through every time a school shooting happens is a total ruse. Elliot Rodger didn’t become a killer because he was a misogynist; he became a misogynist because he was a killer. Just like Eric Harris didn’t become a killer because he loved violent video games; he loved violent video games because he was a killer. Just like Adam Lanza didn’t become a killer because he loved guns; he loved guns because he was a killer.

    Every school shooting incident comes in the same dreary package: an angry, politically-charged rant, shrink-wrapped around a core of mental illness and neglect. These shooters leave behind journals, videos, diagrams, manifestos and treatises. They broadcast their plans and intentions to their friends and family. They email news outlets minutes before they start firing. They write down their plans and make checklists so that others may follow in their footsteps. They go on angry rants against materialism, hedonism, the government, mass media, women, and sometimes even the people close to them.

    And each time, as a culture, we work ourselves into a frenzy debating the angry exterior message, while ignoring the interior life and context of each killer."

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    " he loved guns because he was a killer"??i lost all respect for that little piece after reading that. LOL wow

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    how can we de-escalate and dissipate hatred?

    if there will always be volcanos on our planet, will there also always be human volcanos?

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    " he loved guns because he was a killer"??i lost all respect for that little piece after reading that. LOL wow
    why? what do you mean?

    i dont think the writer was insinuating that all people who love guns are killers (if that's what youre saying), i think its actually the opposite..

    he seems to be suggesting that these people's drive to kill others extends beyond the specific brands/ tools that pop media have come to associate them with...

    Though i do agree that the language of this section comes off as oversimplified... if thats even the right word for it.

    Did you end up reading the whole thing? Did you feel the same way in the end?
    Last edited by domina; 05-31-2014 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    " he loved guns because he was a killer"??i lost all respect for that little piece after reading that. LOL wow
    Could have been worded better, but I don't think the author is saying guns are a cause of the violence commited with them as the tool of choice.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Elliot Rodgers was autistic and extremely narcissistic. He literally never even spoke to women, EVER. He would not approach them. He expected them to naturally come to him, and when they didn't he'd get upset. In his manifesto he wrote that he said "hi" to a girl once as she walked by him. She didn't respond so he locked himself in the bathroom and cried for two hours. Not long before the shooting, he got drunk and went to a party, but instead of trying to socialize, he just got angry when he saw a white girl talking to an Asian guy, and then he tried to push some women off of a roof, but he failed and instead got pushed off and broke his foot. lol. His manifesto is actually pretty funny in how pathetic it is.

    What happened here is a bizarre case of what you get when you combine misogyny with severe mental illness. Honestly though, what frightens me more is the other guys who post on that bodybuilding forum, PUAs, MRAs, etc. Guys who DON'T have mental problems, who interact with women on a daily basis, and STILL see them as objects to be used and thrown away, objects that they 'deserve' to own... nothing more than living "real dolls" with holes to fuck, whose only purpose in life is to act as their arm candy, give them blowjobs and make them sandwiches and clean their house. This is literally what a LOT of guys on the internet apparently believe. Like browsing "The Red Pill" just fucking blows my mind for instance. I just don't get it.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by domina View Post
    http://markmanson.net/school-shootings

    Just read this one today, which takes the argument away form feminism/ entitlement issues and focuses it more on lack of human contact/ empathy.

    "According to the FBI, mass shootings (defined as shooting events that kill at least four people) occur on average every two weeks in the United States."

    That seems like A LOT! Doesn't it??

    I also wonder, if in any industrialized society, will there always be a small fraction of the population who obsesses over violent revenge plots, and then a smaller fraction of those who actually do it? In other words, is this sort of a natural occurence, for the current system/ paradigm we live in?

    ------------

    also, re: St.Slutface, oldster, and Will

    this part from this Mark Manson article seems to respond to what you're saying-

    "But this “witch hunt” we go through every time a school shooting happens is a total ruse. Elliot Rodger didn’t become a killer because he was a misogynist; he became a misogynist because he was a killer. Just like Eric Harris didn’t become a killer because he loved violent video games; he loved violent video games because he was a killer. Just like Adam Lanza didn’t become a killer because he loved guns; he loved guns because he was a killer.

    Every school shooting incident comes in the same dreary package: an angry, politically-charged rant, shrink-wrapped around a core of mental illness and neglect. These shooters leave behind journals, videos, diagrams, manifestos and treatises. They broadcast their plans and intentions to their friends and family. They email news outlets minutes before they start firing. They write down their plans and make checklists so that others may follow in their footsteps. They go on angry rants against materialism, hedonism, the government, mass media, women, and sometimes even the people close to them.

    And each time, as a culture, we work ourselves into a frenzy debating the angry exterior message, while ignoring the interior life and context of each killer."
    Sums it up well considering what a complex topic it is. People constantly strive for simple answers (more gun laws, or "video games made him do it", etc) when it's a much larger issue that speaks to a break down in various areas of our culture, parenting, and the fact our mental health services are broken, and have been for a long time. Long term thinking, real investments in long term solutions, revamping our approach to mental health care, etc, is the only thing that will ever reduce (you'll never eliminate such events) kids like this "falling through the cracks" and not being stopped. A paradigm shift people still not willing to make, still grasping at the easy quick answers some worthless politician with an agenda feeds them.

    But to keep it in context, remember, although these types of high profile events have gone up, total violent crime rates/murder have dropped drastically in the US. And as much as these events suck, especially since some could have been prevented or drastic reduction in death toll had, statistically rare and getting hit by a car, etc far more likely way you'll get killed before your due date.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    i think its a huge issue, and it goes a lot deeper than just this person's psychosis. young men feel entitled to women's bodies, and treat them like objects to be acquired. they feel it is there "right" to get laid or have a girlfriend. a boy slit a girl's throat a few weeks ago for not accepting his prom request. this is a huge cultural issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. that's my take
    This problem spreads across all ages, though it seems to be concentrated with younger guys. I don't know where this problem came from but there are a lot of men who feel entitled to any woman they want and when they are rejected get angry. I saw this a lot when I did online with men I rejected who then often came back and either harassed me by calling me names or threatening me. They were "how dare you reject me, I want you" and when I said no thanks (usually because they had kids, lived far or too old)I would get anything from "fuck you bitch, you're ugly anyway" to "I am going to trace your name and come to your house and slit your throat". The irony is I was pleasant about it but they couldn't handle it.

    I think society does this and most people don't get upset but nutjobs do. In the last few years there has been this idea that you can get anyone you want no matter and that women don't judge on looks. All are wrong of course. These nuts see shows with a sloppy man with a hot wife and think "I can get that" and when they don't they get mad. Then there's the bizarre idea some men have where they think women will sleep with them if they ask. If some random guy came up to me to ask for sex I would run like hell and so would most women I know. Doing online dating I had that problem too. Why men think this is normal is something I don't understand.

    I am speaking for the point of a woman and I'm sure there are some women with this attitude too. However I haven't run across it that much like I have with men.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    Elliot Rodgers was autistic and extremely narcissistic. He literally never even spoke to women, EVER. He would not approach them. He expected them to naturally come to him, and when they didn't he'd get upset. In his manifesto he wrote that he said "hi" to a girl once as she walked by him. She didn't respond so he locked himself in the bathroom and cried for two hours. Not long before the shooting, he got drunk and went to a party, but instead of trying to socialize, he just got angry when he saw a white girl talking to an Asian guy, and then he tried to push some women off of a roof, but he failed and instead got pushed off and broke his foot. lol. His manifesto is actually pretty funny in how pathetic it is.
    Going slightly OT, don't allow the common terminology used by those with a specific agenda to shape the discussion. You have the media and others calling this event terms like "shooting spree" and so forth, which gets people to focus on tools used, vs outcomes. Approx half the people dead he stabbed (3) and half the people he injured he hit with his car. It was not a shooting spree, nor a case of "gun violence" nor a "shooting rampage." It was a violent act by a sick individual, and cars, knives guns, explosives, gasoline, etc are tools of that violence, not causes of. Some, for their own reasons, would try and shape the discussion to tools used vs outcomes and intent of those who commit that violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    What happened here is a bizarre case of what you get when you combine misogyny with severe mental illness. Honestly though, what frightens me more is the other guys who post on that bodybuilding forum, PUAs, MRAs, etc. Guys who DON'T have mental problems, who interact with women on a daily basis, and STILL see them as objects to be used and thrown away, objects that they 'deserve' to own... nothing more than living "real dolls" with holes to fuck, whose only purpose in life is to act as their arm candy, give them blowjobs and make them sandwiches and clean their house. This is literally what a LOT of guys on the internet apparently believe. Like browsing "The Red Pill" just fucking blows my mind for instance. I just don't get it.
    Although I do think that attitude increasing, it's still idiots venting behind computers. Now I'll put my flame suit on and say that my long time here on SW would have me conclude men are nothing but walking ATM machines from some of the comments I have seen over the years, but I also keep it in context. It's easy to lose sight of the fact there's a real person behind those less then subtle comments.

    We have become a more materialistic, less humanistic, more isolated, less empathetic, society and that goes for those with either set fun parts.
    A cunning linguist...

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    A few points

    First, 'men' do not feel the way this guy did. A small percentage surely do, and they are backed up by an army of 12 year old internet trolls. This is not PAkistan or India

    Second, while many people feel frustrated with their interactions with other people, the infinitely vast majority are not violent. Certainly I have have had times where I have been frustrated and angry with the opposite sex's treatment of me, and had there been internet chatrooms at the time, I may have vented there. That is all it would have been, venting.

    Lastly, with all the high minded rhetoric about men and women revolving around this event, tell me who did he kill?............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

    4 MEN
    2 women

    He was a sick young man, he would have latched on to some reason to kill people, this week this was it.
    Yes, MEN do feel that way. I saw it summed up quite nicely by one commenter "Not all men, but men". There is an issue with men in this country and that needs to be recognized. It extends well past a small percentage of kids on the internet. True, they don't all go on a shooting spree (although its worth pointing out that its almost always men who do) but you only have to look at the incidence of rape (whst is it, 1 in 6 women?), sexual assault, street harassment, ect committed against women by men to know that there is a real issue.

    And while yes, he did end up killing more men than women, but who was the majority of his anger directed at, and why? Women, for not
    sleeping with him. In fact, most of his angry comments about other men was due to the fact they were sleeping with women and he wasn't.

    Also worth mentioning that not only was this guy a violent misogynist, but also racist. He was white passing and I believe identified as white, and had a lot of anger towards non white men who were with white women. And who were the men he killed? Three asian men and a I believe a Latino man. Let's not forget the racial motivations behind his violence as well.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Will, I am sorry but I never seen any comments from the ladies on here expressing that men are just walking ATMs to be used. Most ladies on SW talk about how men treat them both in and out of the sex industry. Tons of ladies on here have great relationships with men overall. However, I would have to say that many young men bring things on themselves. They cry about women not giving them a chance. Yet they talk shit about women's bodies and personalities all day long. Frankly, a lot of them believe that women are just sex toys for their enjoyment. You can not deny that fact!

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Going slightly OT, don't allow the common terminology used by those with a specific agenda to shape the discussion. You have the media and others calling this event terms like "shooting spree" and so forth, which gets people to focus on tools used, vs outcomes. Approx half the people dead he stabbed (3) and half the people he injured he hit with his car. It was not a shooting spree, nor a case of "gun violence" nor a "shooting rampage." It was a violent act by a sick individual, and cars, knives guns, explosives, gasoline, etc are tools of that violence, not causes of. Some, for their own reasons, would try and shape the discussion to tools used vs outcomes and intent of those who commit that violence.



    Although I do think that attitude increasing, it's still idiots venting behind computers. Now I'll put my flame suit on and say that my long time here on SW would have me conclude men are nothing but walking ATM machines from some of the comments I have seen over the years, but I also keep it in context. It's easy to lose sight of the fact there's a real person behind those less then subtle comments.

    We have become a more materialistic, less humanistic, more isolated, less empathetic, society and that goes for those with either set fun parts.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    You are right, Sierra I read his Manifesto and he hated being Euroasian. He wanted all of the blond white women to admire him completely. He hated Black, Latino, and Asian men who dated white women. When his sister dated a castizo....he told his mother that he did not want any non-white men dating his sister. His mother and father tried to cure that racism from him. He hated his Asian mother and British father completely. He wanted to be pure white and not mixed with Asian.

    Quote Originally Posted by sierra. View Post
    Yes, MEN do feel that way. I saw it summed up quite nicely by one commenter "Not all men, but men". There is an issue with men in this country and that needs to be recognized. It extends well past a small percentage of kids on the internet. True, they don't all go on a shooting spree (although its worth pointing out that its almost always men who do) but you only have to look at the incidence of rape (whst is it, 1 in 6 women?), sexual assault, street harassment, ect committed against women by men to know that there is a real issue.

    And while yes, he did end up killing more men than women, but who was the majority of his anger directed at, and why? Women, for not
    sleeping with him. In fact, most of his angry comments about other men was due to the fact they were sleeping with women and he wasn't.

    Also worth mentioning that not only was this guy a violent misogynist, but also racist. He was white passing and I believe identified as white, and had a lot of anger towards non white men who were with white women. And who were the men he killed? Three asian men and a I believe a Latino man. Let's not forget the racial motivations behind his violence as well.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierra. View Post
    Yes, MEN do feel that way. I saw it summed up quite nicely by one commenter "Not all men, but men". There is an issue with men in this country and that needs to be recognized. It extends well past a small percentage of kids on the internet. True, they don't all go on a shooting spree (although its worth pointing out that its almost always men who do) but you only have to look at the incidence of rape (whst is it, 1 in 6 women?), sexual assault, street harassment, ect committed against women by men to know that there is a real issue.
    I think there was a thread awhile ago in Ladies Only asking how many women have been harassed and it was many. I personally have had men come up to me and say some horrific things. I was minding my business and wasn't dressed sleazy (not that should make a difference)and the fact that some men think there is nothing wrong with doing this disturbs me.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonaDiabla View Post
    Will, I am sorry but I never seen any comments from the ladies on here expressing that men are just walking ATMs to be used. Most ladies on SW talk about how men treat them both in and out of the sex industry. Tons of ladies on here have great relationships with men overall. However, I would have to say that many young men bring things on themselves. They cry about women not giving them a chance. Yet they talk shit about women's bodies and personalities all day long. Frankly, a lot of them believe that women are just sex toys for their enjoyment. You can not deny that fact!
    Then you have not been here long enough or looked hard enough. Just telling you what I have seen here over the years. I didn't "deny" anything about how some men view women and am the one who said "... I do find young men showing a level of anger toward women seems to be growing. What would have been a few idiots saying such things, has become common, if not the norm in some circles..." above, so make sure to read all that I have said up to that comment about how comments get taken out of context, etc. Thanx.
    A cunning linguist...

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