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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Actually I do have to agree with Will on that. I have seen some women really only look at men as ATM. In fact I have gotten into arguments with some posters who admitted they only wanted to marry a man who could support them and didn't care about whether it was true love. I think some women who work in the sex industry do tend to think of men as ways to make money. I would hope it's only a small percentage. However I don't think it's as widespread as this issue some men have of entitlement.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Going slightly OT, don't allow the common terminology used by those with a specific agenda to shape the discussion. You have the media and others calling this event terms like "shooting spree" and so forth, which gets people to focus on tools used, vs outcomes. Approx half the people dead he stabbed (3) and half the people he injured he hit with his car. It was not a shooting spree, nor a case of "gun violence" nor a "shooting rampage." It was a violent act by a sick individual, and cars, knives guns, explosives, gasoline, etc are tools of that violence, not causes of. Some, for their own reasons, would try and shape the discussion to tools used vs outcomes and intent of those who commit that violence.
    I wasn't trying to draw attention to the gun issue or anything, I was just typing up a response and that's the first word that sprang to mind. "massacre" probably would have been a better word, if only to avoid going into this territory, lol.

    Although I do think that attitude increasing, it's still idiots venting behind computers. Now I'll put my flame suit on and say that my long time here on SW would have me conclude men are nothing but walking ATM machines from some of the comments I have seen over the years, but I also keep it in context. It's easy to lose sight of the fact there's a real person behind those less then subtle comments.

    We have become a more materialistic, less humanistic, more isolated, less empathetic, society and that goes for those with either set fun parts.
    You're right, many women here do vent about men, especially considering the industry that we work in. Men ARE literal vending machines for us in the context of work. And just like any worker in any industry often complains about their customers, we complain about ours... which so happen to be largely men. I do take issue with any grand sweeping statement about men like "they're all dogs, all they want is sex" or "they're all cheaters". I think it's totally unfair and just as sexist as blanket statements about women.

    I understand guys getting together and venting about their girlfriend problems and whatnot, but a lot of these MRA & PUA guys take it too far. a lot of them literally think women are inferior, stupid, even evil, and they spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how to manipulate and exploit them.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    I wasn't trying to draw attention to the gun issue or anything, I was just typing up a response and that's the first word that sprang to mind. "massacre" probably would have been a better word, if only to avoid going into this territory, lol.
    No accusations, just commenting how specific wording can frame the debate/issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    You're right, many women here do vent about men, especially considering the industry that we work in. Men ARE literal vending machines for us in the context of work. And just like any worker in any industry often complains about their customers, we complain about ours... which so happen to be largely men. I do take issue with any grand sweeping statement about men like "they're all dogs, all they want is sex" or "they're all cheaters". I think it's totally unfair and just as sexist as blanket statements about women.

    I understand guys getting together and venting about their girlfriend problems and whatnot, but a lot of these MRA & PUA guys take it too far. a lot of them literally think women are inferior, stupid, even evil, and they spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how to manipulate and exploit them.
    Agreed 100%. Well said. Oh, and all men are dogs. I kid.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Will, I have looked hard enough and I stand by my statements. I was not taking your comments out of context, Will. I do not agree with some of your statements. Yes, you did comment about young men showing a level of anger towards women. However, I was commenting on the fact that you seems to think some women on here think that men are walking ATMs. I argue that some men placed themselves in that situation. Plus, I will argue that most women on here do not think of men as cash machines. Personally, I would marry a man for money, citizenship for profit, and marriage of convenience. I made that no secret in both my professional and personal lives.I feel that gold diggers are sisters of the sex workers and embrace them I am in the small number of sex workers who think so. However, I hold no malice or ill-will towards men

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Then you have not been here long enough or looked hard enough. Just telling you what I have seen here over the years. I didn't "deny" anything about how some men view women and am the one who said "... I do find young men showing a level of anger toward women seems to be growing. What would have been a few idiots saying such things, has become common, if not the norm in some circles..." above, so make sure to read all that I have said up to that comment about how comments get taken out of context, etc. Thanx.
    Last edited by DonaDiabla; 05-31-2014 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I totally agree with simone.

    Here in Missouri, a man who was a known neo nazi killed a group of people. None of these people were jewish. He was shouting racial slurs when he carried out the murder. It is being treated like a hate crime.

    Here is a guy who hated women, wrote about it, made videos about it, even wrote that he was going to kill people because of his hatred of women YET people will scream mental illness. I have seen some get so upset when you say it is hatred of women they almost defend him. All murders are mentally ill. All murders still have different motives.

    On twitter there has been a hashtag #yesallwomen. It was from a statement he said "i hate women, yes all women". The hashtag is where women share how they have been harassed, raped, or disbelieved because of misogyny.

    Men feel entitled to women because of the shit they are fed in the media and the fact they the law doesnt hold them accountable. The victims become shamed and blamed.

    It is the same type of mentality the guy who bit SwanPrincess's nipple during a lap dance so bad it got infected. What kind of sick fuck feels so entitled that he just bits someone randomly? I dont care how aroused he is! He was an entitled prick who didnt care what happened to her or what he was even doing.

    Just because assholes piss me off does not mean I think all men are this way. Why is that always mentioned? Yet when men bitch about gold diggers people just agree with him....
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonaDiabla View Post
    Will, I have looked hard enough and I stand by my statements. I was not taking your comments out of context, Will. I do not agree with some of your statements. Yes, you did comment about young men showing a level of anger towards women. However, I was commenting on the fact that you seems to think some women on here think that men are walking ATMs. I argue that some men placed themselves in that situation. Plus, I will argue that most women on here do not think of men as cash machines. Personally, I would marry a man for money, citizenship for profit, and marriage of convenience. I made that no secret in both my professional and personal lives.I feel that gold diggers are sisters of the sex workers and embrace them I am in the small number of sex workers who think so. However, I hold no malice or ill-will towards men
    Having been on SW a long time and having gotten into some major wars over it. It's not a judgment statement, simply the reality of things. It's also 180 contradictory to say you don't agree that that is the perspective of some here, then go onto say you'd marry a man for money, citizenship for profit. I can say after almost 10 years on SW (fu#% time goes by fast) it would be easy to conclude from comments made many women only care about the $$$ men can supply, and see them as more an ATM with a dong than a human being. It's one of various reasons you don't find me in SCs but on rare occasions. Hence, men and women can and do lose sight of the human being and can dehumanize the person to a pay check or a hole, take your pick. The impersonal nature of the 'net has made that all the easier to do, and I also know, that much of it is just venting by you gals who have to put up with men (better you than me!) and don't always see the most noble side of them at work.

    My point being, many say a lot of crap on the 'net, only a small % actually mean it. But:

    I do think modern culture has set up a very dangerous cycle of how men and women often view each other, and when you combine that with small % who are psychotic as this kid was, it can lead to worse case scenarios. Women for the most part, don't tend to turn to violence in the way men do.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Will, each lady and gentleman on here is different. I hope you do understand this is a forum for sex workers. Our business is to entertain men for money and gifts. If you read it properly, I was saying that most sex workers on here do not think of men as ATMS but human beings. Countless of threads are talking about lovely romances on here. Many ladies love their mates on here. So I do not agree with your statements. It is not contradictory for me to want to marry for other reasons than love. People have been doing that since the beginning of time. It does not mean you think of people as just objects either. I was just stating my philosophy towards men and money is not shared by a large number of sex workers or other women overall. Nor does it mean that I agree with looking at men as less than human either. I prefer to treat men like gentlemen unless they become douchebags. My point is that young men like Eliot Rogers are spoiled little brats who think that women are their sex toys. Being on the net has nothing to do with his weird sexual obsession with blond women, his blind hate for his mixed heritage, and lack of respect for humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    Having been on SW a long time and having gotten into some major wars over it. It's not a judgment statement, simply the reality of things. It's also 180 contradictory to say you don't agree that that is the perspective of some here, then go onto say you'd marry a man for money, citizenship for profit. I can say after almost 10 years on SW (fu#% time goes by fast) it would be easy to conclude from comments made many women only care about the $$$ men can supply, and see them as more an ATM with a dong than a human being. It's one of various reasons you don't find me in SCs but on rare occasions. Hence, men and women can and do lose sight of the human being and can dehumanize the person to a pay check or a hole, take your pick. The impersonal nature of the 'net has made that all the easier to do, and I also know, that much of it is just venting by you gals who have to put up with men (better you than me!) and don't always see the most noble side of them at work.

    My point being, many say a lot of crap on the 'net, only a small % actually mean it. But:

    I do think modern culture has set up a very dangerous cycle of how men and women often view each other, and when you combine that with small % who are psychotic as this kid was, it can lead to worse case scenarios. Women for the most part, don't tend to turn to violence in the way men do.
    Last edited by DonaDiabla; 05-31-2014 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I will be interested to see if anything happens around threats from this one. As far as I know there was nothing anyone could do until he actually started shooting. It is a shame. These shootings went from a rare occurence to having several every year. Of course the country will wnter another stalemate discusssion on what to do, so basically nothing.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Odds are this will generate another attempt at 'tightening' California gun laws for ALL California residents ... see


    Also, in point of fact, we don't actually know whether such murders have gone from a rare occurrence to something more frequent. What we do know is that mainstream media reports of such murders has gone from a rare occurrence to something more frequent.

    What we also know is that, in virtually every such 'senseless' murder reported by mainstream media over the course of the past few years, the 'perpetrator' has shown clear prior evidence of mental illness.

    What we also know from less 'splashy' news coverage that, over the past couple of decades, concerns over the 'rights' of mentally ill people to reside in communities, to live without supervision, to remain 'free' despite doctor's concerns, etc. has resulted in many new laws giving effect to said 'rights' ... most recently the Americans with Disabilities Act. There was even a recent major legislative effort by states over the past few years to restore the 'rights' of the mentally ill to buy and own guns. See .


    Arguably, it's not a question of what should be done to prevent future repeats ... it's more a question of what should be UN-done !!!


    from

    (snip)"Elliot Rodger's murderous rampage near Santa Barbara has tragically exposed the limitations of involuntary-commitment laws that allow authorities to temporarily confine people who are deemed a danger to themselves or others.

    Three weeks before he stabbed and shot six people to death and then apparently took his own life, the 22-year-old sometime college student was questioned by sheriff's deputies outside his apartment and was able to convince them he was calm, courteous and no threat to anyone. The officers had been sent by local health officials after Rodger's family expressed concern about him.

    He just didn't meet the criteria for any further intervention," Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown said on CBS' "Face the Nation" on Sunday. "He was able to make a very convincing story that there was no problem, that he wasn't going to hurt himself or anyone else."

    Like many other states, California has a law intended to identify and confine dangerously unstable people before they can do harm. It allows authorities to hold people in a mental hospital for up to 72 hours for observation.

    To trigger it, there must be evidence a person is suicidal, intent on hurting others or so "gravely disabled" as to be unable to care for himself.

    Police and medical personnel make tens of thousands of such welfare checks in California annually. In the year that ended June 2012, nearly 126,000 people were placed on temporary mental health holds in California.

    In Rodger's case, it's not clear whether the law was too porous, if deputies were inadequately trained or if they simply weren't provided enough information to ferret out how deeply troubled Rodger had become.

    For example, Rodger's mother knew at the time of the April 30 visit that her son had been posting bizarre videos on YouTube, yet police have said they were unaware of any such footage until after the rampage last Friday.

    Rodger had also been in therapy for years, and it's not known what, if anything, authorities knew about his psychiatric care.

    Ideally, officers making welfare checks should gather as much evidence as possible beforehand, including family statements and videos, said Risdon Slate, a professor of criminology at Florida Southern College who has trained law enforcement personnel to recognize the signs of mental illness.

    But even if the deputies are well-trained, "a person with mental illness may be able to hold it together long enough" to avoid appearing suspicious, Slate said.

    Rick Wall, a retired Los Angeles police captain who created the agency's procedures for responding to people with mental problems, said many tend to have some "leakage" in their behavior that can be a tipoff to what they are planning to do.

    "In this case the leakage was like a sieve, there was so much stuff out there," Wall said. "People were hearing this, but no one was connecting the dots. No one was forwarding the information to where it could have been put together."(snip)


    In an age where the California Franchise Tax Board can connect earnings info from a webcam host in Cyprus to a camgirl living in California, why is it so impossible for California to connect the family's statements, the long psychiatric treatment history, the YouTube / social media postings, the Sherriff's Dep'ts 'welfare check', recent purchases from California gun dealers, etc. ???

    Arguably, mental health providers and law enforcement are now so concerned about trampling on the 'rights' of a mentally ill person ( or, more precisely, being sued for allegedly trampling on the 'rights' of a mentally ill person ) that they are 'immobilized' in regard to taking the actions which would have prevented this and other recent incidents ... actions which were proven to be effective in earlier decades.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-01-2014 at 05:17 AM.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonaDiabla View Post
    Will, each lady and gentleman on here is different. I hope you do understand this is a forum for sex workers. Our business is to entertain men for money and gifts. If you read it properly, I was saying that most sex workers on here do not think of men as ATMS but human beings. Countless of threads are talking about lovely romances on here. Many ladies love their mates on here. So I do not agree with your statements. It is not contradictory for me to want to marry for other reasons than love. People have been doing that since the beginning of time. It does not mean you think of people as just objects either. I was just stating my philosophy towards men and money is not shared by a large number of sex workers or other women overall. Nor does it mean that I agree with looking at men as less than human either. I prefer to treat men like gentlemen unless they become douchebags. My point is that young men like Eliot Rogers are spoiled little brats who think that women are their sex toys. Being on the net has nothing to do with his weird sexual obsession with blond women, his blind hate for his mixed heritage, and lack of respect for humanity.
    And you're still missing my major point, but all good. I have already made it very clear my thoughts on Rogers and the ilk and I think the trend of young men viewing women as less than human and some other species increasing, per comments.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Odds are this will generate another attempt at 'tightening' California gun laws for ALL California residents ... see http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/25...oting-rampage/


    Also, in point of fact, we don't actually know whether such murders have gone from a rare occurrence to something more frequent. What we do know is that mainstream media reports of such murders has gone from a rare occurrence to something more frequent.

    What we also know is that, in virtually every such 'senseless' murder reported by mainstream media over the course of the past few years, the 'perpetrator' has shown clear prior evidence of mental illness.

    What we also know from less 'splashy' news coverage that, over the past couple of decades, concerns over the 'rights' of mentally ill people to reside in communities, to live without supervision, to remain 'free' despite doctor's concerns, etc. has resulted in many new laws giving effect to said 'rights' ...
    Same place, multiple murders, but the weapon used not interesting enough (no evil guns involved) to get the splashy coverage, and perp off in just a few years:

    "On February 23, 2001, David Attias, a University of California-Santa Barbara freshman, "plowed his turbo-charged Saab into a group of young adults in the same Isla Vista neighborhood of the coastal community, killing four and permanently injuring another before climbing atop the car and declaring himself 'the Angel of Death.' Charged with murder, he was found not guilty by reason of insanity and sent to a state mental institution. He was released in 2012, having been locked away for slightly more than two years for each of his dead victims. 'He’s out because he got treatment and he finally learned what he needed to say,' said Sally Divis, whose son, Christopher, was just 20 when he was run down by Attias. 'Do I actually think he’s safe? Not really.'"

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/30...3-years-later/
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    The upside and downside of the internet and the 24 hour news cycle

    the 'growing threat' of misogyny

    the ' increase' in mass shootings

    As Americans we tend to worry about the wrong things.

    Yes there are mass shootings, but 10000 people died in drunk driving accidents last year, a huge number. But you know what? 27000 people died in drunk driving accidents back when I got out of high school.

    So, while 10000 is way too many, and we can work on that, I am not going to get all spun up about it, nor am I going to worry about being one of the relatively small number of stranger homicides, or smaller number of mass shootings.

    Is someone trying to convince me that misogyny is somehow worse than in 1955? 1965? 1985?

    Historical perspective

    Maybe mass shootings are up, but the murder rate is half of what it was in 1980


    Look, one murdered person is too many, one raped woman is too many, one dancer sobbing in the dressing room because she was assaulted is too many, but this is our crime trend:

    http://www.victimsofcrime.org/logged...s/crime-trends

    The rate of rape down from the 200's to 30 per 100k in the last 30 years, does this seem like an increase in misogyny to you?


    Hey, if you are a victim of crime, numbers don't mean jack, but if you are feeling under siege, then please, please, don't.

    It honest to god breaks my heart to think of the beautiful women who entertain me not feeling safe out in the real world.

    Is the situation right? Hell no. Can it be better? hell yes.

    There are people who wish to drive opinion one way or another who use things like this event to make people feel unsafe and do things that are against their interest in order to solve the 'problem'

    TO go back to my Drunk driving example, the MADD people want to lower the BAC even further, while over 80 percent of drunk driving fatalities happen with people over the current limit.

    Similarly there are going to be numerous unhelpful yet invasive 'solutions' to this 'problem' which I dare not even speculate on.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    ^^^ Indeed the Attias incident did not receive the same level of mainstream media publicity. Your assessment that 'evil' guns weren't a prominent ingredient probably contributed to that 'editorial decision'. Nonetheless, a fair amount of similarities arguably exist ...

    from

    (snip)In the deadly aftermath of Elliot Rodger’s psychotic and suicidal shooting spree that left six others dead in Isla Vista and another 13 wounded, the muted echoes of David Attias — who killed four people in Isla Vista 12 years ago — will be bouncing off Isla Vista’s blood-stained streets for some time to come.

    While authorities are still sifting through the fragments of Rodger’s life, he made clear to the world in a chilling YouTube monologue filmed the day before his rampage that he was seeking revenge upon all the women who’d never seen fit to have sex with him and all the males who had more sexual pleasure than he had. In it, Rodger, 22, bitterly lamented his virginity and expressed enraged bewilderment that women were not interested in him — “a supreme gentleman”— but were instead “throwing themselves” at “obnoxious brutes,” and he vowed, between creepy theatrical chortles, to exact lethal retribution.

    In 2001, Attias, then a UCSB freshman with a long history of severe mental illness, plowed his black Saab into a crowded Isla Vista street, killing four and wounding others. Attias, who was filmed at the scene hopping around the dead bodies and proclaiming himself the “angel of death,” attributed his action to frustration over lack of sexual contact. Attias was tried for murder and achieved the rare distinction of being found not guilty by reason of insanity. Two years ago, Santa Barbara Judge Thomas Adams ruled that Attias had recovered his sanity and ordered him released from a state facility for the criminally insane. Presumably, he is still living in a supervised group home and receiving supervised therapy.

    Both Attias and Rodger struggled with significant mental-health issues. Before Rodger moved to Santa Barbara from the Los Angeles area to attend Santa Barbara City College, his mother and psychiatrist had sought to set up a range of mental-health services to enable Rodger to safely navigate the challenges of a new environment. But just two days before the shooting occurred, Rodger was reportedly denied the insurance coverage to pay for such help.

    In addition, the fathers of both killers were successful in the television and motion-picture industry. Daniel Attias, David’s father, was an accomplished television director. Rodger’s father, Peter Rodger, was assistant director of The Hunger Games, both critically acclaimed and commercially successful,(snip)


    The relatively unpublicized major similarity, of course, was that both 'senseless' murderers were known to have 'significant mental-health issues' well in advance of the murders actually taking place. And in both cases, no 'action' was taken by family, by mental health providers, or by the state, which might compromise the 'rights' of the mentally ill person in order to protect the safety of others.



    TO go back to my Drunk driving example, the MADD people want to lower the BAC even further, while over 80 percent of drunk driving fatalities happen with people over the current limit.

    Similarly there are going to be numerous unhelpful yet invasive 'solutions' to this 'problem'
    This also ties in with the probable tighter California gun control efforts which may stem from the Rodger incident. Both the Rodger and Attias incidents could have arguably been prevented by re-establishing a better balance between the 'rights' of the mentally ill vs the need for public safety, yet the arguably HUGE mental illness aspects are barely being mentioned by mainstream media.

    Also, as the likely result of yet more 'editorial policy', there seems to be no similar concern by mainstream media regarding compromising the rights of the NON mentally ill to buy and own guns, to consume an inconsequential ( from a public safety standpoint ) amount of alcohol etc. There also seems to be no recognition of the fact that people with 'problems' aren't going to respect those gun control laws or alcohol laws meant to increase public safety in any case ... despite the fact that people without similar 'problems' have arguably allowed their personal rights to be compromised under those laws in the supposed interest of increased public safety which isn't actually being made any safer !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-01-2014 at 07:20 AM.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post

    Is someone trying to convince me that misogyny is somehow worse than in 1955? 1965? 1985?
    If violent crime was the ONLY indication of misogyny, then yes you could be quantify it.
    According to the Center for Disease Control there was 1.2 million rapes in the USA in 2010. Of those, 2/3 are committed by someone a woman knows before the incident occurs.
    If you look at other surveys the number of rapes that year are different. Why? Because the definition of rape is different for every calculation of numbers. Not to mention the level of unreporting of rape.
    Less then 6% of prison inmates are there because of rape or domestic violence. Not to mention cases like Maryville and Steubenville, where the victims were vilified more the defendants in the case. As far as this killer is concerned, he is just one in another list. Recently a girl was killed because she said no she didnt want to go to prom with a boy.

    Misogyny isnt just crime though. Misogyny is the hatred or fear of women. Women still only earn .75 to every man's dollar. Women are over 51% of the population but only 19% of congress, STILL in 2014.

    Misogyny has never left. The only thing that has changed is the laws.
    Speaking of which in the last five years the USA has had an increase in proposing of laws that make miscarriages investigation as crimes, the avalanche of anti abortion laws, the anti contraception laws, the trans vaginal ultrasound laws, etc. They are literally trying to turn back the clock on all of the gains women have received by the law.


    I have heard all kinds of explanations for it from econmic decline, computers, internet porn etc. But as a woman I have always experienced it. Whether I am applying for a job the interviewer asks me out, walking down the street being harassed, or even going to a doctor being told my pain is in all in my head; no matter the decade it is still the same bs.

    So instead of trying to talk women out of the severity of misogyny, why not try to listen to their experience of misogyny? Every women in the world has that damn story.
    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    If violent crime was the ONLY indication of misogyny, then yes you could be quantify it.
    According to the Center for Disease Control there was 1.2 million rapes in the USA in 2010. Of those, 2/3 are committed by someone a woman knows before the incident occurs.
    If you look at other surveys the number of rapes that year are different. Why? Because the definition of rape is different for every calculation of numbers. Not to mention the level of unreporting of rape.
    Less then 6% of prison inmates are there because of rape or domestic violence. Not to mention cases like Maryville and Steubenville, where the victims were vilified more the defendants in the case. As far as this killer is concerned, he is just one in another list. Recently a girl was killed because she said no she didnt want to go to prom with a boy.

    Misogyny isnt just crime though. Misogyny is the hatred or fear of women. Women still only earn .75 to every man's dollar. Women are over 51% of the population but only 19% of congress, STILL in 2014.

    Misogyny has never left. The only thing that has changed is the laws.
    Speaking of which in the last five years the USA has had an increase in proposing of laws that make miscarriages investigation as crimes, the avalanche of anti abortion laws, the anti contraception laws, the trans vaginal ultrasound laws, etc. They are literally trying to turn back the clock on all of the gains women have received by the law.


    I have heard all kinds of explanations for it from econmic decline, computers, internet porn etc. But as a woman I have always experienced it. Whether I am applying for a job the interviewer asks me out, walking down the street being harassed, or even going to a doctor being told my pain is in all in my head; no matter the decade it is still the same bs.

    So instead of trying to talk women out of the severity of misogyny, why not try to listen to their experience of misogyny? Every women in the world has that damn story.
    While I don't disagree with any point you make above, men have their own stories unique to the male experience. Men of course experience violent crime against them at far higher rates than women, much higher murder rates, etc. That's not meant to be a 1:1 comparison per say, or justify anything that happens to women, but if you look at the stats of men, it's not so great on many metrics looked at. I think the intent was to put some things in perspective. Women need to continue to strive for the rights they deserve, and will continue to have that fight for a long time to come and Misogynistic societies the norm all through history of human kind.

    Take home, people kinda suck as a rule.
    A cunning linguist...

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Vamp, there is little in your post to disagree with. I am using crime as a proxy for misogyny, as it is pretty obvious to me that someone who truly believes the spoutings mentioned would have no problem taking a woman against her will. It seems pretty unlikely that if there were a growing level of misogyny that it would go unrepresented in actual crime. There is no study I am aware of regarding unreported sexual assaults that does not show a huge decline in the last 30 years.

    A useless conversation is one that avoids real issues or solves no problems. There is no question that misogyny is an ongoing problem but if one exaggerates its level or creates fears that have no basis one loses the ability to really converse about it.

    I am not trying to diminish the impact of rape or misogyny on the women affected, but rather point out that while these things do happen far too often, it is a trend that is moving in the right direction, and perhaps the intensity of the discussion about it shows our increased intolerance for this behavior as a society rather than an increased number of events.

    If someone wants to say 'men suck and this is what they are like' then fine, it is their opinion, but it is not particularly productive.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    While I don't disagree with any point you make above, men have their own stories unique to the male experience. Men of course experience violent crime against them at far higher rates than women, much higher murder rates, etc. That's not meant to be a 1:1 comparison per say, or justify anything that happens to women, but if you look at the stats of men, it's not so great on many metrics looked at. I think the intent was to put some things in perspective. Women need to continue to strive for the rights they deserve, and will continue to have that fight for a long time to come and Misogynistic societies the norm all through history of human kind.

    Take home, people kinda suck as a rule.
    If you arent trying to make a comparison why bother bringing it up?
    My points were about misogyny not about crime rates alone.

    My life gives me more then enough perspective, which was my point. Women do not need a news story to be scared they are going to be raped, murdered, or treated badly. Women are born with that fear.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    A useless conversation is one that avoids real issues or solves no problems. There is no question that misogyny is an ongoing problem but if one exaggerates its level or creates fears that have no basis one loses the ability to really converse about it.
    The point you are loosing is that this conversation alone is a trigger for alot of women. Why? Because alot of women have been raped etc.
    No one has to exaggerate anything to create fear on this issue. All of that fear has a basis in their personal experiences. By constantly trying to quantify and put things in perspective, you imply that the emotions already there from personal experience dont matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post

    My life gives me more then enough perspective, which was my point. Women do not need a news story to be scared they are going to be raped, murdered, or treated badly. Women are born with that fear.
    I don't think anyone is questioning your experience. But when a news story is biased in such a way to play on people's emotions rather than inform them, it is profoundly unhelpful

    An not fer nuthin, but according to the CDC nearly 1 percent of the women in the country were raped in 2010? I think not. In my opinion when an organization upsells the number of assaults by a factor of 10 of the best crime estimates that is not meant to inform, but inflame
    Last edited by oldster; 06-01-2014 at 08:53 AM. Reason: corrected stat

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    I don't think anyone is questioning your experience. But when a news story is biased in such a way to play on people's emotions rather than inform them, it is profoundly unhelpful

    An not fer nuthin, but according to the CDC nearly 1 percent of the women in the country were raped in 2010? I think not. In my opinion when an organization upsells the number of assaults by a factor of 10 of the best crime estimates that is not meant to inform, but inflame
    What is so biased about the story? They have his manifesto, they have his videos etc. It couldnt be anymore clear cut about why he did what he did.

    Why do you think not 8%? From my experience it is a very low number because most of the girls i know that are raped never report it to begin with. So now the CDC is over exaggerating too? Even the most conservative estimates for 2010 is 850,000 rapes.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    If you arent trying to make a comparison why bother bringing it up?
    Because it's a point worth noting regardless of equivalency or lack there of. Being a man has it's downsides also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    My points were about misogyny not about crime rates alone.

    My life gives me more then enough perspective, which was my point. Women do not need a news story to be scared they are going to be raped, murdered, or treated badly. Women are born with that fear.
    Yes well, my years of being an advocate for women's personal safety via free instruction of fire arms lessons, and advice given, and trying to help make women more aware of those issues, working on education, etc, means I get that reality just fine. I'm in favor of more (attempted) rapists with bullet holes in them than successful rapists without, but that's another topic.

    I'm done here. Thanx for the interesting convo and stay safe.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    FIrst, I did my math wrong and corrected my post

    second no, the most knowledgeable estimate is the fbi and is about 180000 rapes. That is not the reported number which is about 90000

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I am not trying to diminish the impact of rape or misogyny on the women affected, but rather point out that while these things do happen far too often, it is a trend that is moving in the right direction, and perhaps the intensity of the discussion about it shows our increased intolerance for this behavior as a society rather than an increased number of events
    The only comment I would make along these lines is that, for dancers / camgirls / escorts at least, the 'editorial policy' initially put forth by mainstream media in the Duke Lacrosse case, the Dominic Strauss Khan case, etc. certainly served in the end to move the trend in the WRONG direction.

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    Regarding rape, the numbers are actually higher because most women never report it and I imagine the numbers were much higher in the 50's because of the way society was then.Vamp was completely on the mark and I agree with what she said. There is still severe discrimination against women, look at jobs, even the media. Even simple things many don't think about pushes these stereotypes like advertising. Next time you watch a television show watch the commercials for household products and see how many are with women versus men.

    Many things Vamp said are things I have experienced, including being on interviews and having men ask me out or talk to me inappropriately. I've had them say they didn't like to hire women because "they'll get pregnant and quit". I've had them tell me I'm too pretty for the job. So many stories and it's disgusting. Oh and I have been paid less for the same job and it was because I was a woman. I went to EEO and long story short was downsized.

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    How did this get onto how women are treated unfairly and are largely viewed in the social traditional role?

    It has nothing to do with that. I'm not being mean or curt, but that is dragging other issues into something that was basically just a mentally ill person, who stated their intentions to harm people clearly - publicly - and sincerely - and acted on it.

    My concern with this whether "web facts" can be cited or not (do you really need a line graph?!) is that crazy kids are shooting people because they are fucking crazy. That is the bottom line. Have you seen these videos instructing people on what to do if a crazed gumman(kid) shows up at the workplace and starts shooting? Is there something wrong when employers in the USA are making instructional videos about what to do when a lunatic with a gym bag full of guns shows up at the front door? Leave my shit at my desk and help my team members to a safe area? No shit... If I didn't get that tip I might have tried to fight him off with potted plants and a back breaking office chair.

    Who cares what this kid was mad about, honestly. I'm sure he wasn't the first nerd who thought he should be getting 9s and 10s and was sorely disappointed they didn't fall in his lap just because he is a "nice guy". The excuses are never good ones so it pisses me off to hear people even debate why someone shot up a bunch of innocent people.

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