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Thread: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    ^what he said.

    The internet is still evolving, and much as this forum provides a place for sex workers to vent and discuss and support one another - a HUGE percentage of the internet is a collection of people who can't socialize effectively. Is it a surprise that disenfranchised assholes like these create forums and groups too? There are forums where racists gather. There are forums and sites for anything and everything. Misogyny is a problem. It needs to be worked on. It probably does' deserve the attention that this case is drawing to it.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    What happened here is a bizarre case of what you get when you combine misogyny with severe mental illness. Honestly though, what frightens me more is the other guys who post on that bodybuilding forum, PUAs, MRAs, etc. Guys who DON'T have mental problems, who interact with women on a daily basis, and STILL see them as objects to be used and thrown away, objects that they 'deserve' to own... nothing more than living "real dolls" with holes to fuck, whose only purpose in life is to act as their arm candy, give them blowjobs and make them sandwiches and clean their house. This is literally what a LOT of guys on the internet apparently believe. Like browsing "The Red Pill" just fucking blows my mind for instance. I just don't get it.
    Sometimes I feel cursed to be born a woman.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibraSnake View Post
    Sometimes I feel cursed to be born a woman.
    Don't say that! You are blessed as you are! Show them how it's done right!

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonaDiabla View Post
    Frankly, a lot of them believe that women are just sex toys for their enjoyment. You can not deny that fact!
    Agreed 100%

    And we can all agree that this sick fuck--and any other sick fuck who kills women because they aren't throwing themselves at him, or whatever other bizarre reasons--deserves to die.

    However, if we are going to blame this guy killing 4 men and 2 women on men's attitudes towards the dispensation of sexual favors by women, we are barking up the wrong tree.

    Within a week's time I have had to sit & watch three close female friends crying and in anguish because the dipshits they threw themselves at, who blatantly treat women like dogshit, dumped or otherwise mistreated them. At least one of them regularly beats the woman in question--and she is crying because he dumped her again??? And it ain't just this week. For the last fifteen years in particular (since I started working the clubs), I have seen this happen innumerable times.

    Literally, hordes of women reward misogynistic behavior with sexual and emotional favor. You cannot simply blame men for this.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    ^ i think its a real problem that a lot of females have, i'll definitely give you that. but i wouldn't say it excuses the men any.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Absolutely not.

    I abhor abusive men & have gotten into some nasty situations stopping it, or dealing with it after the fact.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I'm going to catch some flak for this, but...

    GADDAMN IT DJ THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT.

    Just had to get that out.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    Agreed 100%

    And we can all agree that this sick fuck--and any other sick fuck who kills women because they aren't throwing themselves at him, or whatever other bizarre reasons--deserves to die.

    However, if we are going to blame this guy killing 4 men and 2 women on men's attitudes towards the dispensation of sexual favors by women, we are barking up the wrong tree.

    Within a week's time I have had to sit & watch three close female friends crying and in anguish because the dipshits they threw themselves at, who blatantly treat women like dogshit, dumped or otherwise mistreated them. At least one of them regularly beats the woman in question--and she is crying because he dumped her again??? And it ain't just this week. For the last fifteen years in particular (since I started working the clubs), I have seen this happen innumerable times.

    Literally, hordes of women reward misogynistic behavior with sexual and emotional favor. You cannot simply blame men for this.
    Uh no. This is the same kind of twisted thinking that is rampant in those PUA communities. Women don't "reward" men with sex. Women can have sex with whoever they want, for whatever reason they want. It's not our job to train men, like dogs, to not be mysogynists, the onus is on men. This is ridiculously close to the ideas policing of women's sexuality that this guy openly supported!

    Relationships are complicated. And an abusive relationship can be extremely difficult to leave. I know because I have been in them. I can't believe I even have to say this, but it is often not something the victim can easily escape from.

    Like you literally just said that women are to blame for misogyny for sleeping with men who treat them badly.
    It's like, a woman grows up in a misogynisitic culture, develops low self esteem, dates a man, he becomes abusive, she becomes trapped in the abusive cycle, she is now to blame for misogyny?

    Yeah, blaming men's toxic attitudes towards women is *totally* barking up the wrong tree. We really need to be blaming women, with their loose dispensing of vagina!

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I have known many women (sadly most were dancers or in the sex industry)with those kinds of shitty men. One dancer I worked with had a husband who beat her if she made less than $200 a night while he sat on his ass. There have been posts here (especially in Ladies Only or Life Support)from women with either cheating or abusive men (or both). In my opinion the only women who stick with these guys have a few screws loose. I am not excusing these assholes but women giving them attention is not smart.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierra. View Post
    Uh no. This is the same kind of twisted thinking that is rampant in those PUA communities. Women don't "reward" men with sex. Women can have sex with whoever they want, for whatever reason they want. It's not our job to train men, like dogs, to not be mysogynists, the onus is on men. This is ridiculously close to the ideas policing of women's sexuality that this guy openly supported!

    Relationships are complicated. And an abusive relationship can be extremely difficult to leave. I know because I have been in them. I can't believe I even have to say this, but it is often not something the victim can easily escape from.

    Like you literally just said that women are to blame for misogyny for sleeping with men who treat them badly.
    It's like, a woman grows up in a misogynisitic culture, develops low self esteem, dates a man, he becomes abusive, she becomes trapped in the abusive cycle, she is now to blame for misogyny?

    Yeah, blaming men's toxic attitudes towards women is *totally* barking up the wrong tree. We really need to be blaming women, with their loose dispensing of vagina!
    Yeah if you keep picking guys who beat shit out of you, take all your money, fuck your friends...it's not anything at all wrong with you, it's all on the men, including all the guys you never even considered because they were actually polite to you instead of smacking you around.

    Don't even think about giving me that kind of shit. I've put my ass on the line to defend women from abusive men many times, and I'll do it again.

    I am saying it's a two way street because it is. Blaming men for all the evil that goes on between men & women is no more productive than the idiotic men blaming the women for everything, which is equally tiresome and delusional.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierra. View Post
    Uh no. This is the same kind of twisted thinking that is rampant in those PUA communities. Women don't "reward" men with sex. Women can have sex with whoever they want, for whatever reason they want. It's not our job to train men, like dogs, to not be mysogynists, the onus is on men. This is ridiculously close to the ideas policing of women's sexuality that this guy openly supported!

    Relationships are complicated. And an abusive relationship can be extremely difficult to leave. I know because I have been in them. I can't believe I even have to say this, but it is often not something the victim can easily escape from.

    Like you literally just said that women are to blame for misogyny for sleeping with men who treat them badly.
    It's like, a woman grows up in a misogynisitic culture, develops low self esteem, dates a man, he becomes abusive, she becomes trapped in the abusive cycle, she is now to blame for misogyny?

    Yeah, blaming men's toxic attitudes towards women is *totally* barking up the wrong tree. We really need to be blaming women, with their loose dispensing of vagina!
    I am mostly in agreement w/ this ^^^^, but I think part of what Djoser was getting at is, PUAs & their ilk continue to behave in these ways bc, for whatever reason(s), their behaviour gets results.

    I have commented in other threads (& I am probably not the only one who has) on how sad it is that women tend to be fed from birth the idea that it is basically better to be in SM relationship than no relationship. Did I ever put up w/ being hit, myself -- fk no -- but for yrs I put up w/ a lot of crap in relationships bc I did not understand that I did actually deserve better. There were a number of factors that influenced this, but those are for another thread & plenty of strong Point is, in a way, I WAS rewarding the bad behaviour I received by sticking around.

    I think this is what Djoser was getting at, not saying that women(or men for that matter) in this situation inherently deserve to be there.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Thanks, Aniela. You hit the nail on the head.

    NO ONE deserves to be abused, for whatever reason.

    The PUA stuff persists only because it works on the dumb ones--the same ones who think that The Rules will actually work, and bring them a good man instead of a little fuckin doggie boy lol.

    Mating rituals for idiots of both sexes, and there are untold millions of them.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    Yeah if you keep picking guys who beat shit out of you, take all your money, fuck your friends...it's not anything at all wrong with you, it's all on the men, including all the guys you never even considered because they were actually polite to you instead of smacking you around.

    Don't even think about giving me that kind of shit. I've put my ass on the line to defend women from abusive men many times, and I'll do it again.

    I am saying it's a two way street because it is. Blaming men for all the evil that goes on between men & women is no more productive than the idiotic men blaming the women for everything, which is equally tiresome and delusional.
    In your first sentence, you really sarcastically low-key blame me for the abusive committed against me (interesting how part of my problem was overlooking nice guys!), and in the second you act offended I would DARE call you out on the bullshit you posted earlier, because you care about abuse victims so much you've put yourself on the line for them. I'm sure this is true, but things you are posting here are not in defense of abuse victims or women, they are downright victim-blaming and misogynistic.
    It is not a two-way street. When men commit violence towards women MEN are to blame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    Thanks, Aniela. You hit the nail on the head.

    NO ONE deserves to be abused, for whatever reason.

    The PUA stuff persists only because it works on the dumb ones--the same ones who think that The Rules will actually work, and bring them a good man instead of a little fuckin doggie boy lol.

    Mating rituals for idiots of both sexes, and there are untold millions of them.
    No one deserves to be abused, but if you stay with an abuser (even though the nature of abuse makes it hard to escape) then you are to blame for men's misogynistic behavior?
    Men shouldn't manipulate women, but if they succeed, she is just one of the "dumb ones"?

    Jesus fucking christ.

    Men should not abuse women FULL STOP
    Men should not manipulate women FULL STOP

    Stop shifting the blame onto women, because it is not our fault. And besides that, it's a flawed argument. Do you think if no woman stayed after the first punch, abusers would stop abusing? No, I doubt that would make any difference at all. There is a lot that has to change, and it starts with men in more ways than one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    However, if we are going to blame this guy killing 4 men and 2 women on men's attitudes towards the dispensation of sexual favors by women, we are barking up the wrong tree
    ...
    Literally, hordes of women reward misogynistic behavior with sexual and emotional favor. You cannot simply blame men for this.
    "We can't blame this violence on the toxic ways men view "the dispensation of sexual favors by women", even though the killer himself cited these same toxic views. We need to blame women, for the way they dispense their sexual favors."
    WTF????????
    As long as you are posting garbage like that I'm sorry but yes, I will think about giving you that kind of shit.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Sierra., you are correct in saying that if no woman stayed after the first punch, the abuse will still continue toward sm1. Again, I am in agreement on what you're saying -- I just disagree w/ you going to town on Djoser here bc there is another point that he is making -- he is talking specifically abt the ppl who, for whatever reason, stay in an abusive relationship.

    We are not saying 'fk you stupid bitch you deserve to get the shit beaten out of you if you stay w/ that mofo!' Quite the opposite. We are pointing to a cause-effect where, if you stay w/ sm1 who you know treats you like shit, you can't expect anything else from them.

    What he pointed out, & what I agree w/ bc I have seen it myself in sm of my own relationships, is that a person who stays in that situation is simply doing themselves no favours by staying. It is hard as fk to break out of that, I have been there myself, but the fact alone that I stayed was feeding the monster, so to speak. I did not deserve that treatment, but staying would result in nothing but more of the same, bc my abusers took my continued presence as a reinforcement that their behaviour 'couldn't possibly be THAT bad!'. It's the equivalent of bc your own (in)action is part of what is allowing the abuse to continue.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierra. View Post
    ...it's a flawed argument. Do you think if no woman stayed after the first punch, abusers would stop abusing? No, I doubt that would make any difference at all. There is a lot that has to change, and it starts with men...
    Jesus Christ, talk about a flawed argument. If the girl stays away, the abuser HAS to stop abusing her because SHE ISN'T THERE. Of course he will try it with other women, but if those other women have learned to spot these guys--usually I can spot them a mile away--they will have an increasingly difficult time finding victims.


    It absolutely is a two way street...'It' being the way men & women relate to each other. If we want to end the violence, we have to start with everyone. Starting when we raise the males and females alike from infancy, to respect each other.

    I'm not blaming the women. I'm just tired of seeing women blame ALL the men...then in many cases run right back to the beaters.

    Saying women should quit running back to men who beat or otherwise abuse them is misogynistic? Bullshit.

    I'd say that is the time for those women to do the FULL STOP.

    Curiously enough, the first time I ever choked a guy out he started screaming for his girlfriend to help him, that he was trying to kick the shit out of a few minutes before. While he still could anyway. Cops hate domestic violence calls most of all due to the frequency with which the women will attack them when they try to arrest the husband.

    Nine times out of ten, the fights I have been in were either to protect women from guys out of control, or dealing with the aftermath of guys getting out of control.

    But I'm tired of arguing about this. It's not going to help the 6 victims of the piece of shit murderer from the OP, or the very real problem of abuse.

    Maybe we should do this...I can now go back and delete my post that got you going, and all other references to it, which will end this pointlessly divisive argument. Or I can leave it up and we can agree to disagree about semantics, letting the thread get back on course.
    Last edited by Djoser; 06-04-2014 at 10:23 PM.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I think the both of you are focusing too much on where you disagree.

    Sierra,

    Men are a lot of things, Men are murderers rapists, con artists, wife beaters, drug dealers, pimps, thieves, cheaters, losers....


    You see, when you say 'Men are' or 'Men should' it takes the power away from your words, primarily because I can say, 'well, that is not true about me, so it is not true, thus your thesis is false'.

    Yes, to say 'Men suck' feels good viscerally, but is it a useful statement?

    The world you live in is the world you think you live in. It kills me to think that any one of the beautiful women here lives in this guys world, cause it just aint so.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    The heart of what the PUA people teach is basically that women are only happy when they are chasing. When women are being chased they tend to be indecisive and erratic.

    In my experience this is mostly true. Unfortunately some men are raised to do exactly the thing that repulses many women, with the best intentions. Meanwhile asshats do what makes many women go to stage five clinger mode by just being deadbeat losers. Biology is a bitch lol.

    I don't think this signals any kind of growing disdain for women. Some deseve it, we all know who they are. I am not going to even speculate why this guy did what he did beyond mental illness. There is no rarionale for it.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I find it hilarious the same men stating that bringing up misogyny is completely missing the point about this shooting BUT then they jump thru hoops to bring up women who choose abusive men. Even though, once again, the guy said his hate for women is why he did it. Oh the irony.

    Blaming women for men's actions IS misogyny. When a man is murdered people dont talk on and on about the personal responsibility of victim for what happened. Victims of abuse should not be treated any differently. Just like the shooter who blamed women for all the horrible things in his life; abusers AND misogynists blame women for their problems. Women are scapegoats. While men whine and cry about women. Men need to start with personal responsibility for themselves.

    If a woman is too confident she is a bitch; if she is too insecure she is playing the victim.
    If she has alot of money she slept he way to the top; if she doesnt have much money she must be a gold digger.
    If she has an opinion she is "over complicating" the issue; if she doesnt have an opinion she is just an air head.
    It gets extremely tiring.

    Women can be misogynists too and do the above to each other as well.

    The greatest way for both genders to empower women is to stop scapegoating women. Instead of judging them, listening to them.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I find it hilarious the same men stating that bringing up misogyny is completely missing the point about this shooting BUT then they jump thru hoops to bring up women who choose abusive men.

    ...While men whine and cry about women. Men need to start with personal responsibility for themselves.
    What fucking hoops? I'd be a blind idiot to miss it, working in the clubs all these years.

    No one is absolving the shooter. No one is absolving violent men who abuse women.

    But the subject turned from this one sick fuck who used misogyny as an excuse to kill FOUR MEN and two women, to the subject of men abusing women in general.

    I do think it was more than typical misogynistic thinking motivating this sick fuck. But in saying so I get these shrill hysterical cries that I am the fucking misogynist??

    Then we hear that ALL abuse of women is ALWAYS the fault of ALL men, and this one sick fuck's actions are used to verify the logic--oh and if you disagree or maybe suggest self-protective measures, you are no better than the rapists or the fucking PUA dipshits. Say fucking what?

    What I am saying is that women ALSO need to start taking some personal responsibility for themselves. And 'STOP picking abusive men' is right up there on the list.

    I don't find it hilarious at all that I have known literally hundreds of women who continuously seek out abusive men, and keep going back to the same ones or ones just like them every fucking time. Over and over again. And it is far more common in this business than outside of it.

    There's no jumping through any hoops going on here--no man with any real perception could possibly miss seeing the amazing frequency with which women throw themselves at abusive assholes. But in pointing this out, I am told I am a fucking misogynist?? Despite putting my ass on the line repeatedly to protect them.

    I'm trying to tell the women to STOP putting themselves in a subservient position to abusers. They don't have to pick sniveling little crybabies instead, but there are more different kinds of men out there besides the two.

    Christ go take a look in Life Support, for years now half the threads are all about how the woman can't seem to stay away from the douchebag. The cherry bright stove burner looks pretty, but it fucking burns like hell. We are supposed to stop putting our fingers on it, not make a habit of it.

    If I was a misogynist I would just laugh at them like so many assholes I know do. I certainly would not put my own ass on the line over & over again to defend them from these fuckers--only to watch them go running back to them after things settle down.

    I'm not whining or crying about jackshit--I wouldn't have survived a month of my 15 years in the business if I were whining about anything having to do with the women in the clubs. Being a smarmy little pussyboy will get you squashed instantly.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    That being said, I was in the wrong to reply to anyone here 'You are doing this or that (wrong)', or saying 'Don't even think about starting that shit with me.' I would warn myself for that, actually.

    I was annoyed at the moment, having just read an anguished FB thread started by a woman who has been running back to the same guy beating her, time & time again--like I've seen happen with so many others. Odds are very good I will have to go up against this guy soon, & he is a monster.

    So hearing I am exactly the same as those fucking PUA dipshits, because I advocate self-protective measures, pissed me off.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Vamp

    Do you think that because i disagree with you I am not listening to you?

    Is it mutually exclusive to say, 'look both ways before you step off of the curb' and 'hey there are people crossing the street here,slow down?'

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I think where it gets frustrating is this: All I ever hear about is how women need to STOP chasing these guys. They need to LEAVE, or stop putting up with it, stop being a victim, stand up for themselves, or otherwise change their behavior to fix their situation. Why is it always the WOMEN who need to change? Why can't the message be directed towards the men instead? The MEN are the ones who need to stop their behavior. Of course, the women DO need to take action and responsibility for themselves as well. However, the ROOT of the problem is in the violence and abuse COMING FROM MEN. Regardless of whether women shun them for their behavior, or "reward" their punches with sex and blowjobs, doesn't really matter because it doesn't address the ROOT PROBLEM, the abuse, that will continue regardless of what women do, unless the man is able to learn, become educated and change his behavior.

    As long as people don't talk about it, as long as it's just something that society brushes over with "well some guys are just assholes, can't do anything about that", the more this will continue. There is nothing wrong with bringing the topic up and talking about the misogyny that exists in society and how it contributes to abuse & violence of women. It doesn't always have to circle around to "b-b-b-but WOMEN do bad dumb things too!" because that's not the point.

    It's similar to the emphasis being on "don't get raped" instead of "don't rape". So don't get/stay together with an abusive guy? Sure but the real emphasis should be on DON'T ABUSE.

    Also, it's telling that in this crime where the killer literally spelled out EXACTLY why he did it, in fact he wrote a really long detailed manifesto about it, revealing his exact motive, and STILL people are like "why is everyone making this about misogyny??" lol really? Because that's what drove him to do it? (of course he was mentally ill, I'm not glossing over that aspect but his hatred of women was still his motive). His intention was to go into a sorority house and shoot everyone inside, but he gave up on that because the door was locked. Otherwise there would be a lot more female victims.

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  36. #73
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Djoser's comparison to the hot stove is a fitting one here. A person who repeatedly touches that red-hot burner can expect what, exactly?

    Same w/ a person (MALE OR FEMALE) who keeps going back to an abusive SO. You've been w/ them long enough to know exactly what will happen when they think you overcooked their dinner, or spent too much time getting home from work, or there's a stubborn-ass stain that didn't all come out in the first run thru the laundry, or they just think you looked at them sideways. You(& I mean the general 'you', no one in particular, so just chill for a sec) know what the person will do to you, bc they have done it b4, repeatedly. Is it your fault they are a sodding POS who gets off on abusing others? No it is not. But if you don't stick around, they can't abuse you. Kinda like how walking away from that burner significantly decreases one's chances of getting burnt.

    Djoser is not defending abusive ppl at all, or trying to shift the blame soley onto women. Nobody here is, from what I have read. How many threads can you count in Life Support & Ladies Only abt these situations? Too many, & that point is what sm of the guys here were getting at.

    My other thought here is that when you strip away everything else, the guy who committed these crimes was a stone-cold whacko. While he came out & broadcasted his misogynistic motives for all the world to hear, I think an important thing to consider is that mental illness is smtg one is born w/, while misogyny & related attitudes are typically learnt. If it hadn't been that, it would have been smtg else. I think a lot of the problem w/ this case was not just his anger at women, but the fact that no effort seems to have been made to lock him up b4 he could cause so much damage. For that, I actually place a lot of the blame on his shrink, who should have committed him & didn't.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    yes women should not continue to date douchebags..but unfortunately its easier said than done. its always easier to see things from a 3rd party perspective. i think every female out there has had that one guy who hasn't treated us the way they should have, that we continued to cling to..sometimes girls grew up with misogynistic fathers or were abused..some are just lonely or insecure. often times sociopathic misogynists are extremely charming, manipulative, and are great lovers until they are certain they've reeled you in. its always frustrating when you can see somebody being fucked around with . i've been dealing with my best friend going through that crap.

    but the biggest issue is the men that are abusing. that needs to stop first. that is the root problem. they are the way they are NOT because they are being rewarded. the blame needs to be placed where its due. i find this whole thing to be very uncomfortably close to victim blaming

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    ^^^^ So telling a person 'Stop putting your hands on that hot stove!' is victim blaming?

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