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Thread: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    People who are abused are actively being emotionally manipulated and tortured... it's not super easy for them to just up and decide "oh he's mean, time to cut and run". And even if they do, it can be difficult. Abusers CAN be very charming, and reel them back in with sweet talk and whatever else. And people generally want to believe that there is a GOOD man underneath all the abuse so they keep clinging on, hoping that their love will make things better. It's twisted but it is what it is, and these women who are affected by it are VICTIMS above anything else. The abuse will make them act irrational, even though it appears the solution is OBVIOUS to everyone else. Plus many of them are probably afraid that if they leave, they will be beaten or killed. It's very complex and sad, and it's not a black and white issue with an easy answer.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniela View Post
    ^^^^ So telling a person 'Stop putting your hands on that hot stove!' is victim blaming?
    It's about as useful as telling an alcoholic, "Just stop drinking!"

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    the stove and the hand are just a lot different than actual human interactions..plus the stove is not in the wrong for being hot. men are in the wrong for being abusive, and until that stops there will always be victims. a lot of them specifically choose girls who are insecure and emotionally broken. the victims think they will change them, and believe them that it will never happen again. even if they don't have a specific victim, in my experience they will lash out or specifically put themselves in positions where they can hurt and punish women.
    do i believe that women should stop staying with abusive assholes? yes, it can be infuriating and third party perspective is 20/20. but they aren't to blame for misogynistic abusive men.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    ...it's not a black and white issue with an easy answer.
    It sure isn't.

    And I absolutely never meant to say that men are free from responsibility. I loathe and abhor abusive men and have fought several of them as a direct result of their abusive behavior.

    There are also plenty of weak men who fall for manipulative deceitful, abusive women--though the abuse isn't generally physical but mental. Some of them never learn either & keep going back to the same types.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    What fucking hoops? I'd be a blind idiot to miss it, working in the clubs all these years.

    No one is absolving the shooter. No one is absolving violent men who abuse women.

    But the subject turned from this one sick fuck who used misogyny as an excuse to kill FOUR MEN and two women, to the subject of men abusing women in general.

    .

    We feel the same kind of frustration because every time a woman is raped or murdered people scream SHE SHOULD OF DONE THIS, SHE SHOULDNT OF WORN THAT, ETC. That never happens when something bad happens to a man. I am so sick of it I could puke.

    What you are seeing as a cause is actually a symptom of misogyny. When I talk about misogyny i am talking about it from a cultural and societal perspective. When girls grow up in abusive environments and then society tells them their ONLY value is their looks and relationships it creates a vacuum in a woman's life. Women being attracted to men who arent worth their time is because they really dont believe they are worth more or they think that is what love is. Their value becomes based on how much they will endure for their man. I grew up surrounded by these women and learned the hard way.

    The other issue being missed is... a woman can do everything right.. she can dress modestly, she can date healthy men who support her, etc... and still get raped, verbally abused, etc.
    I know some women who live in cities that literally travel gauntlets of street harassment just to get to work. One girl recently got killed because she declined to go to prom with some boy.

    Good guys have no damn clue how much bullshit women go thru. The reason why they dont know is because they refuse to listen. They just scream it isnt them and women shoulda, coulda, woulda.
    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    Vamp

    Do you think that because i disagree with you I am not listening to you?

    Is it mutually exclusive to say, 'look both ways before you step off of the curb' and 'hey there are people crossing the street here,slow down?'
    If someone is saying "you should of looked both ways" after someone has been run over, laying bloody in the street...... no they arent paying attention or listening to that person's suffering. It means that person's ego is more important that the others suffering.

    If I am walking with someone and they grab my arm before I step down and says to me "you should look both ways"... they are looking out for me.

    There is a HUGE difference between the two.
    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I also think alot of miscommunication between the sexes is because of the assholes ALL women endure.

    One of my good male friends and I talk about this alot. For example, he gets pissed off because women dont respond to his emails on dating sites. He thinks they are being stuck up bitches.

    I explain to him the reason why women do this. If a woman emails back she isnt interested many men become overly persistent, insanely aggressive, or even start online stalking. They cant accept a no. But for some reason if you ignore them it diffuses the situation. More often then not they let it go.
    I told him the best thing to do is try to start a conversation about something on her profile instead of asking her out, her phone number, etc.

    That is just one example of the endless tactics we use to avoid bullshit by assholes.
    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Good guys have no damn clue how much bullshit women go thru. The reason why they dont know is because they refuse to listen. They just scream it isnt them and women shoulda, coulda, woulda.
    I'm not a 'good guy'. Nowhere near it, by the definition of the majority of society.

    I DO see how much bullshit they go through, the bruises, the tears, the police reports, my having to fight their dipshit loser men...

    But hearing in this thread how absolutely vital it is that I (and all other men) change my thinking...while the poor girls who just couldn't stay away from the guys that beat shit out of them...because they are great in bed, they actually do have a good side, & they are just so irresistible...its not the women's fault at all, but rather the fault of all men everywhere?? I don't buy it, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    It's about as useful as telling an alcoholic, "Just stop drinking!"
    Nonetheless, the alcoholic MUST stop drinking, because otherwise their life will be destroyed. In Drug Dependence terms, what is going on here is 'Enabling' on a massive scale. By this logic, it's not the alcoholic's responsibility to resist drinking, he just cannot help himself. Apparently it's never the woman's fault that anything bad ever happened to her, even if she picks nothing but felons and guys she knows has been kicking the shit out of other women. She just cannot resist the cherry red burner.

    I have known so damned many of those women, because there are so many working the clubs that it makes me ill. I will still defend them from the assholes, in & out of work, but I hate the fact that they find it so goddamned easy to get into these situations.

    It's NOT just the men who have to change their way of thinking, in order to stop the violence...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Men and women both need to change their thinking.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    how is not just the men who need to stop the violence is they are the one perpetrating it?? totally confused. like i said, even if these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, you think they'd stop their violence and misogyny? not a chance. and i agree that both men and women need to change..the patriarchy is harmful to both. it teaches men that they should always want sex and look at women as objects and that only pussies don't degrade women..and it teaches women that their highest calling is to find a man and not to be an "old maid" whatever the cost.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Yes because if every man on earth never abused another women ever again...... it would never change anything .....
    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    I see both sides but from the perspective of a former victim. I had been in an emotionally abusive relationship in my 20's and knew it was destructive. I have no doubt it would have become physical had I stayed. The reason I stayed to begin with was this idea that without a man I was worthless. Eventually I did leave, once I realized it was causing me pain. Because I saw what was happening I have avoided any relationships like this. However I knew I deserved better so I left. Right now I have a friend having an alcoholic issue and he knew he needed to change his life otherwise it would kill him.

    I don't blame the victim but it can be exasperating trying to help someone leave an abusive partner only to have her return because he apologized. This happened where I tried to help my former best friend leave her abusive partner, only to have her defend him against me in court.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I totally agree with simone.

    Here in Missouri, a man who was a known neo nazi killed a group of people. None of these people were jewish. He was shouting racial slurs when he carried out the murder. It is being treated like a hate crime.

    Here is a guy who hated women, wrote about it, made videos about it, even wrote that he was going to kill people because of his hatred of women YET people will scream mental illness. I have seen some get so upset when you say it is hatred of women they almost defend him. All murders are mentally ill. All murders still have different motives.

    On twitter there has been a hashtag #yesallwomen. It was from a statement he said "i hate women, yes all women". The hashtag is where women share how they have been harassed, raped, or disbelieved because of misogyny.

    Men feel entitled to women because of the shit they are fed in the media and the fact they the law doesnt hold them accountable. The victims become shamed and blamed.

    It is the same type of mentality the guy who bit SwanPrincess's nipple during a lap dance so bad it got infected. What kind of sick fuck feels so entitled that he just bits someone randomly? I dont care how aroused he is! He was an entitled prick who didnt care what happened to her or what he was even doing.

    Just because assholes piss me off does not mean I think all men are this way. Why is that always mentioned? Yet when men bitch about gold diggers people just agree with him....
    this is just one of the spot on posts you have made throughout this thread. i wish i could piece them all together and stick them on top of this thread.

    this thread was specifically framed with those links to bring about a discussion of misogyny, gender relations, and violence. so for all the ppl saying that everyone is getting off track with their hysterical emotional responses or w/e, um, thats the point of this thread. if ppl want to talk about the victims families, the local businesses affected, the caliber of the handgun or whatever you think is more relevant, then maybe a separate thread or threads can be made.

    i just read through this thread all at once and its shocking how typical it played out. there are 2 separate views arguing against each other amongst the minimal background noise. not surprising one is all female and the other is all male.

    heres a gender studies (what should be real life studies) 101 concept: mansplaining.

    men, plz stop telling us what to do, what our experiences "actually" are, what the appropriate "unbiased" and "unemotional" approach to the female experience is. you are not a woman. you dont know the female experince. if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.

    which segues into another 101 concept thats a little more direct: check your privilege. everyone has privelege in some areas and lacks in others. men(particularly white men) obviously have privelege none of us women have but it extends further than that. socioecomic status, race, education, history, all play into your relative privelege. so plz, white men who are on this board as sc hobbyists and obviously have some at least comfortable middle class standing, plz stop telling the women to just leave their pimps or w/e. sex trafficked women are disproportionately women with no resources and women of color, you dont know that experience so dont pretend like you do. just take a breath, stop it with all of the #notallmen shit, and listen to the women who are sharing their perspective,

    i wish i could contribute more but the mra level is just out of control and i dont have the ability to explain the entire history of flawed gender relations. thankfully vamps doing a.really good fucking job here so i just wanted to say thanks again for restoring some sanity.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    also how fucking bizarre is it that we can still be slut shamed on a site exclusively for strippers? wtf??

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte. View Post

    i

    men, plz stop telling us what to do, what our experiences "actually" are, what the appropriate "unbiased" and "unemotional" approach to the female experience is. you are not a woman. you dont know the female experince. if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.
    Yes, I shall proceed to sit down shut up and move to the back of the bus

    seriously?

    I don't see where any man is trying to tell you what your experiences are.

    What I do see is actually a little more of a nuanced conversation than you are seeing

    Having a conversation usually involves multiple perspectives, and saying that the one true perspective is the only one and that everyone should sit and listen seems a bit, well, patriarchal doesn't it?

    I don't happen to agree with all of what DJ is posting, but I think he has a point, and it is not the only point, just as you have a point, but it is not the only one.

    Part of the reason to have a conversation is to convince and persuade someone who has an alternative point of view the validity of your own view, and perhaps on occasion to be convinced yourself.

    For one of the parties to 'be quiet,listen' is not a conversation,it is a lecture.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    If someone is saying "you should of looked both ways" after someone has been run over, laying bloody in the street...... no they arent paying attention or listening to that person's suffering. It means that person's ego is more important that the others suffering.

    If I am walking with someone and they grab my arm before I step down and says to me "you should look both ways"... they are looking out for me.

    There is a HUGE difference between the two.
    So I happen to tell a few women[who happen to be under 4 feet tall] to look both ways pretty much every damn day, and they don't always listen, and you bet your ass if they get hit I will give them a lecture about it.

    ANd yes there is a HUGE difference, and DJ was particularly talking about getting women to avoid the situation in advance[look both ways] because he is frequently the one cleaning the blood off of the street after the accident.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte. View Post
    if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.

    ...white men who are on this board as sc hobbyists and obviously have some at least comfortable middle class standing, plz stop telling the women to just leave their pimps or w/e. sex trafficked women are disproportionately women with no resources and women of color, you dont know that experience so dont pretend like you do. just take a breath, stop it with all of the #notallmen shit, and listen to the women who are sharing their perspective,

    ...restoring some sanity.
    I am not a hobbyist, I am a man who has spent 15 years dealing directly with the violence towards women, which is much more common in the stripping industry than out of it. I have gone up against guys that would have your average dude pissing himself, in order to protect the women.

    Advising women to stop falling for violent woman beating felons is neither being a 'bad ally', nor is it insanity. Insanity is far more likely to be defined as going back time & time again to the same beater, or worse yet one sadistic fuck after another. But in either case the word is not appropriate.

    This is not slut shaming. This is saying 'Don't think with your pussy, especially if that gets you beaten regularly.' Same as with the guys who always pick manipulative bitches who take all their money & fuck their friends. They could simply blame the women, & some do--but they are dead wrong--it's a two way street.


    I really dislike arguing with Vamp in particular, you have always been one of my favorites.

    But there is no way I can sit for fifteen years, sometimes laying my ass on the line for the women, then watching them run back to these same kinds of sadistic guys. And then hear how it's only the men who need to change their thinking?

    Not without trying to persuade them to protect themselves.

    If no woman ever again rewarded the patriarchal male dominance behavior patterns, how long do you think they would last?

    These sick woman beating fucks infuriate me, or you wouldn't find me going up against a guy a woman has run back to 6-7 times. I am sure as shit not trying to excuse anything in their behavior, if I am fighting the fucking guys.

    Ordinarily I try to stay out of these threads, but it just so happened I have been dealing with three girls in a fucking week running back to dominant, abusive men.



    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    how is not just the men who need to stop the violence is they are the one perpetrating it?? totally confused. like i said, even if these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, you think they'd stop their violence and misogyny? not a chance. and i agree that both men and women need to change..the patriarchy is harmful to both. it teaches men that they should always want sex and look at women as objects and that only pussies don't degrade women..and it teaches women that their highest calling is to find a man and not to be an "old maid" whatever the cost.
    You answered your own question. The patriarchy would not last another day if no woman anywhere bought into this bullshit anymore. If these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, hell fucking no they couldn't beat their own girlfriends!

    Women raise children as much as or more than the men. Behavior patterns begin in infancy, and are then encouraged to a tremendous extent by the media--especially television--and peer pressure. Women have as much power to change the behavior patterns as the men do.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Maybe this will help defuse the needless back & forth. I fucking love this scene. It's better in the book (of course). I have read all three and they are all excellent. The original title of 'Girl With The Dragon Tattoo' was 'Men Who Hate Women'. Stieg Larsson's SO says he would have hated the American title, and I'm inclined to agree.


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Elliot Rodgers couldn't find a girlfriend, and look what happened. If these abusive guys couldn't find girlfriends or get laid, they would likely take out their anger on the women who reject them.

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  32. #95
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfette View Post
    Elliot Rodgers couldn't find a girlfriend, and look what happened. If these abusive guys couldn't find girlfriends or get laid, they would likely take out their anger on the women who reject them.
    ^^^^^ This this and more this
    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    I really dislike arguing with Vamp in particular, you have always been one of my favorites.
    These sick woman beating fucks infuriate me, or you wouldn't find me going up against a guy a woman has run back to 6-7 times. I am sure as shit not trying to excuse anything in their behavior, if I am fighting the fucking guys.

    Ordinarily I try to stay out of these threads, but it just so happened I have been dealing with three girls in a fucking week running back to dominant, abusive men.
    DJ I am not arguing with you. You are one of my favs as well But I am just pointing out what my perspective.

    I grew up in an abusive family. My one aunt has been in an abusive marriage for 40 years. She screams, she cries, she leaves, and she goes back. I have watched it a thousand times. It took ALOT of work on my part not to go down that road. Hard hard grueling soul wrenching work. But I did it. I am sure this issue is personal to all of us answering it for many different reasons. It is a trigger for alot of us.

    0111dates.jpg
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte. View Post
    men, plz stop telling us what to do, what our experiences "actually" are, what the appropriate "unbiased" and "unemotional" approach to the female experience is. you are not a woman. you dont know the female experince. if you dont view yourself as a misogynist and as a true ally, then do what allies are supposed to do: be quiet, listen, and when necessary, ask questions about how you can be a better ally.

    check your privilege. everyone has privelege in some areas and lacks in others. men(particularly white men) obviously have privilege none of us women have but it extends further than that. socioecomic status, race, education, history, all play into your relative privelege. so plz, white men who are on this board as sc hobbyists and obviously have some at least comfortable middle class standing, plz stop telling the women to just leave their pimps or w/e. sex trafficked women are disproportionately women with no resources and women of color, you dont know that experience so dont pretend like you do. just take a breath, stop it with all of the #notallmen shit, and listen to the women who are sharing their perspective,

    i wish i could contribute more but the mra level is just out of control and i dont have the ability to explain the entire history of flawed gender relations. thankfully vamps doing a.really good fucking job here so i just wanted to say thanks again for restoring some sanity.
    Thanks but you added alot too. It takes all women raising their voice in this discussion.

    In case you dont know how to check your privilege ........ CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE LEVEL WITH THIS EASY TEST

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    Nature knows no indecencies; man invents them. ~ Mark Twain


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  37. #98
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post

    You answered your own question. The patriarchy would not last another day if no woman anywhere bought into this bullshit anymore. If these assholes couldn't find girlfriends, hell fucking no they couldn't beat their own girlfriends!

    Women raise children as much as or more than the men. Behavior patterns begin in infancy, and are then encouraged to a tremendous extent by the media--especially television--and peer pressure. Women have as much power to change the behavior patterns as the men do.
    they wouldn't beat their own girlfriends but like i've said before..it wouldnt change their mindsets. they'd still harass, rape, and put themselves in positions where they could talk down to and abuse women. my boss is one of them.
    we are in agreement that women need to change their mindsets too , especially with how a lot of them are misogynistic as well! but it won't stop women-hating men from , well .....hating women.

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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Here's one take on how modern men are trained to hate women:

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19785...ate-women.html

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  41. #100
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    Default Re: UCSB shooting- thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    Yes, I shall proceed to sit down shut up and move to the back of the bus

    seriously?
    I just love it when men compare themselves to black civil rights activists while they mansplain. without fail, they always do it!!!

    thanks vamp for that amazing not all drivers pic. completely made up for all of the icky posts before yours. im saving it to my phone.

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