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    Default Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    This news blurb caught my eye as a result of the issue of income inequality for women being raised in a different thread.


    from


    (snip)"SAN FRANCISCO — Silicon Valley. It's where the women, and the minorities, aren't.

    Hit any tech event from South of Market to Santa Clara, and you see the same cast of characters. Scores of young white men in T-shirts and hoodies. A fair number of Asians and south Asians. A few Hispanics. Rarely blacks. And a smattering of women.

    It's a funhouse mirror image of the American workforce, which is 47% female, 16% Hispanic, 12% black and 12% Asian, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    Google released its diversity numbers Wednesday after it (and most other tech firms) have spent years without disclosing such figures.

    Just 1% of its tech staff are black. Two percent are Hispanic. The one well-represented minority group is Asians, who make up 34% of the company's tech workers. Eighty-three percent of Google's tech workers internationally are male. For non-tech jobs, the number is 52%.

    The numbers are especially astounding for California, where 38% of the population is Hispanic, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Asians make up 14% of the state.

    At its heart, there are two reasons for the mismatch, experts say. The first is pipeline. White and Asian men are much more likely to have access and take advantage of technical schooling that leads to jobs at tech firms than historically disadvantaged minorities.

    "Women and underrepresented minorities have been denied access to resources and opportunities that would allow them to enter and succeed in computer science," said Coleen Carrigan, an anthropologist who researches high-tech cultures.

    Students coming from high schools where computer science, and especially AP computer science, isn't taught, start out with a tremendous disadvantage. That's something Londa Schiebinger, a professor of the history of science at Stanford University, has learned from her students.

    "Computer science education rewards students with early exposure to computers and fails to nurture those who are new to them and apprehensive," Carrigan said.

    Finally, high tech isn't a very welcoming place if you don't fit in, Carrigan said."(snip)


    comments ?

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    What is an AP computer?

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    "Women and underrepresented minorities have been denied access to resources and opportunities that would allow them to enter and succeed in computer science," said Coleen Carrigan, an anthropologist who researches high-tech cultures.
    Where I'm from, that couldn't be further from the truth! When I was in university I had to take a basic computer science class for my program. The class was almost completely full of women (who were eligible to receive a financial grant for the computer science program) and Asians. I was one of two white guys in a class of 80ish.

    It's not important for all races and both sexes to be equally represented in the workforce. What is important is that everyone has a fair shot and the most qualified person is hired, regardless of race or sex.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    advanced placement computer science class



    I would think you would have to know what the makeup of the [graduating class of the] top 10 schools in computer science and how Google's hiring matches up to that to be able to judge

    I would think however the female hiring could be better in this day and age
    Last edited by oldster; 06-02-2014 at 11:03 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Where I'm from, that couldn't be further from the truth! When I was in university I had to take a basic computer science class for my program. The class was almost completely full of women (who were eligible to receive a financial grant for the computer science program) and Asians. I was one of two white guys in a class of 80ish.
    Indeed a 'basic computer science' college course is just that ... a basic overview of computer and network architecture, an introduction to programming, etc. for NON computer science majors !!! I was required to take a couple of these CSCI100's courses myself as a requirement for my Respiratory Therapy degree. It's therefore completely understandable that such a class would have a large percentage of female students. It should also be completely understandable that such courses would be of zero value when Google is making hiring decisions re new tech employees. Google is looking for CSCI400's courses, not CSCI100's courses.

    One must also assume that, to go along with Google's much higher than 'median' pay rates, Google is also looking for tech job candidates who exhibit much higher than average tech skills on top of the CSCI400's educational background.


    What is important is that everyone has a fair shot and the most qualified person is hired, regardless of race or sex.
    Well, how does that 'jive' with the apparent fact that Google's tech jobs pay 2 to 3 times as much as 'vanilla' jobs requiring less specific college degrees, but that a very small percentage of women have apparently taken the CSCI400's courses necessary to qualify for Google's relatively high paying tech jobs ?

    From the NY times ... see

    (snip)take a look at the trends in computer science and engineering. Engineering is slightly more female-heavy than it was in 1991, but not much: 15.5 percent then versus 18.4 percent in 2010, the most recent year in the report. Computer science actually is more male-dominated today than it was two decades ago: Women received 29.6 percent of computer science B.A.’s in 1991, compared with 18.2 percent in 2010.

    From a wage-gap perspective, it’s too bad that women have increased their share of degrees in the select fields that they have, as they are leaving money on the table. Of the STEM fields, computer science and engineering have the highest median earnings for recent college graduates without advanced degrees, according to a report from Georgetown’s Center on Education and the Workforce"(snip)

    (snip)For computer science, the median earnings for recent grads with no more than a B.A. is about $50,000, and for engineers it’s about $54,000. For the other majors, median earnings for recent grads without tertiary degrees ranges from $30,000 for biology to $41,000 for math(snip)


    I would think you would have to know what the makeup of the [graduating class of the] top 10 schools in computer science and how Google's hiring matches up to that to be able to judge
    Well, UC Berkeley is one of those top 10 CSCI schools, and anecdotal evidence indicates the following ... from

    (snip)" Brittany Judoprasetijo is accustomed to being one of only a handful of women sprinkled across male-dominated engineering classes.

    “Usually, it doesn’t bother me,” said Judoprasetijo, a UC Berkeley senior majoring in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. “Of course, it does get kind of lonely.”

    Judoprasetijo is one of many students in the College of Engineering whose academic experience is often marred by the knowledge that her gender is struggling to keep up in the field, a trend that has become a national issue.

    “Last semester, in one of my classes, I was one of four women,” Judoprasetijo said. “I think that was probably one of the most depressing moments.”(snip)

    Thus it would appear that participation by women in CSCI programs at top rated CSCI colleges is even lower than the 18% 'across the board' average participation rate in all CSCI programs at all US colleges as cited by the Georgetown University study.


    Circling back on topic, the original question leading to this thread being posted was the issue of American women as a whole receiving less pay than American men. It would appear that the hiring decisions made by US tech companies contribute to that difference in pay rate. It would also appear that the decisions made by American women themselves to 'avoid' the highest paying STEM majors, and to specifically 'avoid' the top rated colleges for those highest paying STEM majors which command the very highest potential salaries, contributes to that difference in the hiring of male vs female employees.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-02-2014 at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Is Google a successful business or not?

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Is Google a successful business or not?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/education...ortage/284359/

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Is Google a successful business or not?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/education...ortage/284359/

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    I'm not sure I'm grasping the gist of your question. Google just booked 19% revenue growth, plus 3% profits growth. Google has a higher market cap than the largest of Wall St banks Wells Fargo and JP Morgan, as well as Microsoft, General Electric, Verizon, and WalMart ... not to mention AT&T, IBM and Coca Cola. That certainly ranks as successful in MY book.

    The point which your Atlantic link attempts to raise is that the overall demand for US computer scientists and engineers is not in fact as high as the actual number of US computer scientists and engineers already available in the 'labor pool'. Arguably, that has virtually no relevance to Google's standards for hiring computer scientists. I am absolutely certain that there are indeed hundreds of thousands if not millions of Americans with computer science degrees who are not working in their field, or are not working at all. However, Google arguably has little or no need for people whose computer related skill set is 10+ years out of date.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    I read that. I'm not fond of google despite I probably have the skills to work for them.

    My degree is in a completely different discipline than CS, but I have the actual skills and job experience needed for that kind of job. However, they don't seem to be kind to look at experience (DoD) and skills (althought I would have to update the certs, for they expired in 2012 and 2013 but they aren't that pricey): they would probably hire me if I was a brand new CS grad with ZERO work experience than a veteran with paid experience and skills (I recently learned to program in a few languages, actually). Another thing that could kill me is that I have some gaps: I did a whole lot more than just IT.

    Anyways, I'm finally moving to Austin in a few weeks and there are thousands of other IT firms to choose from: Google are not the only ones: they're bringing Google fiber, so they're hiring in Austin. They can shove their Glasses in their asses for all I care (get it?).





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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Two points, which may or may not be related.

    The nonsense about diversity being necessary for a business to be successful if a load of left wing crap, and

    Society is not in great need of people with STEM degrees, despite propaganda to the contrary by the education bureaucrats, whose goal is to increase their own funding.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    Society is not in great need of people with STEM degrees, despite propaganda to the contrary by the education bureaucrats, whose goal is to increase their own funding.
    The USA needs AMERICANS and NOT foreigners (from the Middle East and India) in those jobs, so there is a need for AMERICANS to get those degrees.





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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    Two points, which may or may not be related.

    The nonsense about diversity being necessary for a business to be successful if a load of left wing crap, and

    Society is not in great need of people with STEM degrees, despite propaganda to the contrary by the education bureaucrats, whose goal is to increase their own funding.
    And the nonsense about business making all the best decisions for our country as a whole is a load of right wing crap

    and STEM is where the money is so regardless the motives it is the right answer

    and yes feriners is taking a bunch of these tech jobs that could be going to 'mericans if they had the right education so more right wing 'fail'

    but knowing who a company you do business with is hiring and if that aligns with your own political sensibilities is a perfectly capitalist way of being


    but this no doubt will exceed the allowable political content so I will shut up now

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Indeed a 'basic computer science' college course is just that ... a basic overview of computer and network architecture, an introduction to programming, etc. for NON computer science majors !!! I was required to take a couple of these CSCI100's courses myself as a requirement for my Respiratory Therapy degree. It's therefore completely understandable that such a class would have a large percentage of female students. It should also be completely understandable that such courses would be of zero value when Google is making hiring decisions re new tech employees. Google is looking for CSCI400's courses, not CSCI100's courses.
    Well, I can't speak for the majority of the class, but of those I got familiar with quite a few were computer science majors. I'm not sure whether any of them ever did go all the way, as I was on a highly divergent course path from them. All I know is that the incentives are there for women to take. So long as they were mildly familiar with computers, which almost all young people are in this day and age, there is no disadvantage there. In fact, the grants aimed solely at women seem to give them an advantage. Whether the interest is there or not is another subject entirely. Maybe women tend to find that kind of work disillusioning, either through social or biological factors, and so lose interest after dabbling in computer science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Well, how does that 'jive' with the apparent fact that Google's tech jobs pay 2 to 3 times as much as 'vanilla' jobs requiring less specific college degrees, but that a very small percentage of women have apparently taken the CSCI400's courses necessary to qualify for Google's relatively high paying tech jobs ?
    How does that not jive? If fewer women graduate with computer science degrees, then doesn't it stand to reason they'd be less represented at a company who looks for people with computer science degrees?

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    While women may be underrepresented in that field it's also terribly boring lol. I actually originally went to college as a CS major. that lasted one year before i was out. while the $ may be good, I'd rather pole dance than tap on a keyboard all day.

    To each is own. Maybe CS is just not a field that appeals to most women's interest. I know it didn't appeal to mine once I got in. I was great at math so figured I'd try a tech field but it just couldn't hold my interest.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Sorry, I gotta call BS on this.

    Do you know what actually moves you up in these fields? Working long long long hours, any hours needed to get the job done and being on the hook to keep the clients/investors happy. You better know your shit forwards and backwards which is more than just schooling it involves actually loving what you do and if you want to be good it should also be your hobby. Be interesting and well informed enough that you have a blog, twitter account and forum posts that your peers read to solve problems, stay informed and learn something new.

    The imagined inequality here is what people are wiling to do. If you want to do well in one of these careers as a casual 9-5'er and nothing more you will become outmoded before the ink is dry on your degree.

    Women certainly have the intelligence to do these jobs, studies have been done that show women are superior in multitasking and are more reliable at getting administrivia (boring shit every job has) done. Men are more likely to do what they want than what they must, another plus for the fairer sex.

    Men however, perhaps white and asian men more than others (thats racist!) are more likely to go home and continue their career outside of work in some nerdy pursuit into the wee hours. I don't know a single good engineer who doesn't mostly do their job out of enjoyment for making/solving and a drive to be the biggest nerd in the room.

    We have moved past the point where someone wants to hire a person based on some check boxes to fill that look good. Show me you can contribute to the team. Show me that you love this shit and can bring something fresh when the chips are down. Show me that if I hand you a tough problem you are going to enjoy the journey and come back to me with a solution that makes me happy you don't work for a competitor. Nobody gives a crap about hiring you for your diversity if you can't do anything.

    EDIT:

    I think I will also add since it is relevant that there are 13 year olds in third world countries making apps on their own on used computer equipment from tutorials on the internet. It really comes down to what drives you as a person, but that isn't fun or beneficial to your respective social media image to graph.
    Last edited by invibe; 06-02-2014 at 11:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixia View Post
    While women may be underrepresented in that field it's also terribly boring lol. I actually originally went to college as a CS major. that lasted one year before i was out. while the $ may be good, I'd rather pole dance...

    The IT field is suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper boring, I'll second that.

    It has a few perks like ultra casual dress code, flexible hours (some employers offer them), good pay, but is also a job that's also super monotonous.

    There's also lots of sexism...at least for what I've seen. All the black ITs are in the government, hahahahaha: most DoD civilian ITs I had met had been black. They probably don't like the private sector.





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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    People working in the lucrative tech jobs aren't doing "IT" for the most part. They are computer scientists which is really about math. Specifically how to solve problems in the most efficient way on computers. Logic, algorithms, dynamic programming (one highly efficient solution to many different problems).

    These are also not 4 year degree jobs. They are masters and above.

    So what that study should say is that most of the people getting these jobs today are not born in the U.S., but foreign born.

    Access is the lamest excuse I have ever heard, literally. So a kid from China (pick a country) can learn to program (in a completely foreign laungauge, since virtually all are some form of English, albeit a cryptic one) on a used computer piecing together what he/she understands from tutorials written in English, German, Korean, and Chinese ... but someone from the U.S. who didn't have their hand held and wasn't spoon fed everything to their satisfaction is at a disadvantage...

    You don't really even "need" to be amazing at math for your standard programmer job. Most of the hard problems were solved decades ago, and if you can balance a check book or get the area of a triangle you have the requisite math skills for boring crap productivity apps people use every day. It is literally the best paying field for those without any college and will remain that way as long as people can pair some study with a decent sense for design and solving interesting problems.

    Okay, will stop trolling this thread lol

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by invibe View Post
    People working in the lucrative tech jobs aren't doing "IT" for the most part. They are computer scientists which is really about math. Specifically how to solve problems in the most efficient way on computers. Logic, algorithms, dynamic programming (one highly efficient solution to many different problems).

    If it deals with computers, it's IT: Information Technology. The "de facto" of computer sciences is Informatics, or Information Technology. So, even a senior programmer with a goddamn DBA is still...an IT worker.





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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    How does that not jive? If fewer women graduate with computer science degrees, then doesn't it stand to reason they'd be less represented at a company who looks for people with computer science degrees?
    In fact, the grants aimed solely at women seem to give them an advantage. Whether the interest is there or not is another subject entirely. Maybe women tend to find that kind of work disillusioning
    To each is own. Maybe CS is just not a field that appeals to most women's interest. I know it didn't appeal to mine once I got in.
    It doesn't 'jive' with the original reason for posting this thread, the complaint that women are paid less than men for 'equivalent' work.


    People working in the lucrative tech jobs aren't doing "IT" for the most part. They are computer scientists which is really about math. Specifically how to solve problems in the most efficient way on computers. Logic, algorithms, dynamic programming (one highly efficient solution to many different problems).
    Now you opened 'Pandora's Box' ... by claiming that a person with a BSCS performing software development work at Google ( and getting paid $ 80,000+ ) isn't doing an 'equivalent' job to a person with a BSCS administering a community college's computer system ( and getting paid $ 40,000- ).
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-03-2014 at 03:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    It doesn't 'jive' with the original reason for posting this thread, the complaint that women are paid less than men for 'equivalent' work.

    Now you opened 'Pandora's Box' ... by claiming that a person with a BSCS performing software development work at Google ( and getting paid $ 80,000+ ) isn't doing an 'equivalent' job to a person with a BSCS administering a community college's computer system ( and getting paid $ 40,000- ).
    I don't get it. Are you blaming Google for paying its employees more than other companies do?

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    ^^^ no, I'm pointing out that certain women are complaining that Google is paying its ( overwhelming white and Asian male ) employees significantly more than other companies do ... thus creating / exacerbating a disparity in pay rates for men vs women !!! I'm also pointing out that certain people are complaining that Google's workforce 'diversity' is unacceptably skewed toward white and Asian male employees.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Pretty sure if the people complaining about Google were skilled enough to meet their hiring requirements, Google would hire them.

    Bottom line companies like Google just want the best workforce. It's the only way to compete with the other tech giants. They aren't going to turn down a qualified applicant regardless of color or sex. The last thing they want is the brightest people going to their competition.

    This isn't a gender or ethnicity thing. It's a white and Asain nerds are more likely to work around the clock 7 days a week thing. The work ethic of those guys is insane.

    I know they had plenty of time to do my homework and theirs and do extra credit, and then play video games lol. I know I'd get into the dorms after partying and they would be studying for fun.

    And that's why I changed majors lol

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ no, I'm pointing out that certain women are complaining that Google is paying its ( overwhelming white and Asian male ) employees significantly more than other companies do ... thus creating / exacerbating a disparity in pay rates for men vs women !!! I'm also pointing out that certain people are complaining that Google's workforce 'diversity' is unacceptably skewed toward white and Asian male employees.
    Certain people need to widen their tunnel vision.

    A lack of diversity, in itself, is not proof of any wrongdoing or bias. And Google paying its employee's above average salaries is no one's business but Google's. To remain a top business, they need to attract the right kind of talent; above average pay and benefits are one way of doing that. They certainly can't be held responsible for the gender wage gap! At least, so long as they're paying their own employees equitable rates.

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    Default Re: Tech ... Google Releases Employment 'Diversity' info

    I guess the underlying theme here is a difference between employment based on qualification and those employees representing enthinicities/sexes proportionally.

    So what is the takeaway from the study?

    a) Pursuit of knowledge that leads to high paying, highly competitive careers in computer science is largely the domain of young males inclined to be comfortable with being branded "geeks".

    b) Large tech companies are racist/sexist.

    c) People not of the young caucasian/asian male demographic are less interested in these fields as a career for a variety of reasons.

    It does make me wonder though. Are we not doing enough to reach everyone with core skills in maths and are we doing a good job of helping people find the career that is a good fit. We are going to need more engineers not less, so how do we get kids into the pipe early and how do we make it cool.
    Last edited by invibe; 06-05-2014 at 08:27 PM.

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