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Thread: Invisible Poor

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    Default Invisible Poor

    This news just in, women are the invisible poor with some estimates at 42 million and most are single moms:

    "......more than 17 million women were living in poverty last year, compared with 12.6 million men. As usual, things were worse for older women; twice as many women over 65 were living in poverty, compared with men.And those numbers just represented the population-wide average. For Hispanic and black women, the poverty rate increased even faster and rose higher—to 25 percent for Hispanic women and to 25.6 percent for black women.

    As usual, single mothers are having the hardest time of all. More than 40 percent of women who head families are now living in poverty. With more than half of poor children living in female-headed families in 2010, the child poverty rate jumped to 22 percent."
    “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.” - ECKHART TOLLE

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    This has been discussed over and over again. Here and in Dollar Den. The primary cause of poverty is single motherhood. If you want a 50-1 chance of never being poor there are four things you must do : 1. Graduate high school ; 2. Stay out of jail ; 3. Don't get married before turning 21 and 4. Don't have children out of wedlock. Not doing any of those four things means there is a 98% chance you will NEVER be poor. Doing just one of the four listed doubles your chances of being poor. Doing two gives you a 95-98 % certainty ( depending on the study ) you will be poor for a LIFETIME.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Just to expand a bit strictly for clarity : Of the behaviors listed , doing just one doubles your chances of being poor. BUT , having children out of wedlock increases the chances of a lifetime of poverty for you AND your children to at least 75%. Dropping out of high school AND going to jail is a virtual guarantee of a lifetime of poverty. The rate is about 99%. In contrast , while getting married before turning 21 increases the chances of being poor it is not as determinative as the other three i.e. it is the only factor that can be overcome.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Also, in terms of full disclosure, the official 'poverty' level applied to all of these situations only counts gross earnings. It does NOT count the equivalent cash value of food stamps, Medicaid / Medicare, subsidized housing costs, subsidized utility bill costs, and other 'non-cash' benefits. As such it's entirely possible for an American whose gross earnings exceed the poverty level by a marginal amount, and as such becoming ineligible for these 'non-cash' benefits, to have a LOWER standard of living than another American who has extremely low earnings but also receives 'free' food, 'free' medical care, discount rent, discount utility bills, etc.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    This has been discussed over and over again. Here and in Dollar Den. The primary cause of poverty is single motherhood. If you want a 50-1 chance of never being poor there are four things you must do : 1. Graduate high school ; 2. Stay out of jail ; 3. Don't get married before turning 21 and 4. Don't have children out of wedlock. Not doing any of those four things means there is a 98% chance you will NEVER be poor. Doing just one of the four listed doubles your chances of being poor. Doing two gives you a 95-98 % certainty ( depending on the study ) you will be poor for a LIFETIME.
    Why is it seemingly impossible for so many people to grasp this?

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    ^^^ because, when the 'equivalent cash value' of benefits and the effect of payroll / income taxes is accounted for, it isn't actually true !!!

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    Why is it seemingly impossible for so many people to grasp this?
    I'd LOVE to answer that BUT the politics ban makes it almost impossible to do so. I can I suppose answer it with a question ? Who benefits from people being poor ? From people going to jail ?

    The most apolitical reason is that high school children are NOT taught this. Imho they ought to be : It should be drummed into them : " You want to be poor ? Have a child out of wedlock. Or drop out . Or go to jail. Or get married before 21 . "

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ because, when the 'equivalent cash value' of benefits and the effect of payroll / income taxes is accounted for, it isn't actually true !!!
    Wait a minute Melonie. While it is true that we have the world's wealthiest poor people ( and the U.S. does ), it doesn't mean that they are not poor. They are. And there are plenty of places in the U.S. where the lives of the poor are genuinely miserable; like 3rd World type poverty. Not every state has the same benefits. And even with the benefits that you've laid out, not everyone qualifies for them. There are waiting lists for public housing.

    However we define "poor" the studies I've cited to used the Federal Poverty Line for a family of four. Even with the available benefits it is NOT a lifestyle I would want not is it one I would wish for anyone else.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Thanks for the heads up from someone asking for back up for my assertions. I refer to not one but TWO very well known surveys ; one from Princeton and one from Harvard.
    They've both been out there for years and are easily accessed via the internet

    The Princeton study wanted to answer the Question : Why are people poor in the U.S. ? The answer is as I have laid out. When it came out, that study was first suppressed and then folks like Jesse Jackson, Pau Krugman, Cornell West and others accused the authors of "blaming the poor " for their own plight. A few years later another group of researchers at Harvard did a similar survey and were shocked , SHOCKED ! that their findings were almost identical to those of the Princeton group. So they redid their own survey and then reluctantly and sheepishly published the results which AGAIN were largely ignored by the lamestream media. They should not have been surprised. Moynihan was warning of the exact same things back in the 1960 's !

    To me , both studies did nothing but confirm the obvious. How many single mothers do you know who are not poor or near poor ? We've discussed the exhaustion factor with single motherhood and the fact that women ( by and large ) earn less than men. Unless they are getting child support, is it any surprise that most single mothers are poor ?
    How many high school drop-outs do you know who are not poor. A single mother with no H.S. diploma is virtually guaranteed a lifetime of poverty and so are her children.
    Who disputes that ? There are not enough Lotto jackpots or 1st round draft slots to put a dent in that calculus.
    How many people do you know with criminal records who are not poor ?
    How employable do you think a HS drop out with a criminal record is ?
    One in four black men is either in prison , in jail , on probation or on parole. That is not going to affect poverty stats ?
    A woman drops out of High School , gets married at 17, 18 or 19 , has a couple of kids but then her husband is killed , or otherwise leaves the home. Is it any surprise that most such women end up being poor ? What is she trained to do except maybe domestic work ?

    Some of you have questioned the stats that I posted; the "odds" as I posted them. None , afaik bothered to READ the studies I referred to which btw, have been confirmed over and over again by everyone who ever took a serious look at the same data.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    in this economy, simply graduating highschool, not getting a felony, and not having kids out of wedlock will GUARANTEE ( to 98%) you will never be poor?? im just finding that VERY hard to believe.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    And there are plenty of places in the U.S. where the lives of the poor are genuinely miserable; like 3rd World type poverty. Not every state has the same benefits. And even with the benefits that you've laid out, not everyone qualifies for them. There are waiting lists for public housing.
    Agreed that there are some isolated exceptions as you point out. However, other studies show that 3rd world type poverty / the 'plight of the homeless' etc. is mostly an issue of mental illness ... and/or not applying for social welfare benefits which ARE available ( well, available to US citizens anyhow ). As to 3rd world type pockets of poverty among illegal immigrants residing the USA, I disqualify them from meaningful comparison.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    in this economy, simply graduating highschool, not getting a felony, and not having kids out of wedlock will GUARANTEE ( to 98%) you will never be poor?? im just finding that VERY hard to believe.
    The federal poverty line was made decades ago based on the *very minimal* amount of food a person or family needs to survive. It does not account for housing, clothes or transportation. So there are a lot of people who struggle and are not technically in poverty.
    Last edited by lynn2009; 06-26-2014 at 10:29 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    in this economy, simply graduating highschool, not getting a felony, and not having kids out of wedlock will GUARANTEE ( to 98%) you will never be poor?? im just finding that VERY hard to believe.
    Yes..how old are those stats, lol?
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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    Why is it seemingly impossible for so many people to grasp this?
    Natural selection removes from the gene pool those who value financial stability above popping out babies (assuming such traits are hereditary). The ex-convict high school dropout with four baby mommys is far more successful at the game of life than the childless wall street stock broker.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    There never is a guarantee you won't be poor but there is really a guarantee you will be poor if you do what Eric mentions, such as drop out of high school, have babies out of wedlock etc. There are reasons why this happen and it's a problem. For many it's all they saw growing up.

    The solution? for one, we need to stop glamorizing teen pregnancy and instead encourage education. Women also need to stop dating men who will not stick around and support the kids. We need to go after these men as well, including jail if they refuse to pay but I prefer alternatives because jail will also cost taxpayers. Also, we need to look at how the benefits affect them. In Illinois we have generous welfare for out of wedlock babies and the result is 54% of all babies are born on medicaid. Meanwhile we have a growing percentage of childless educated professionals who either don't want kids or can't afford them. We also pay a lot in taxes (and it keeps increasing)for welfare and the whole baby mama/baby daddy lifestyle is common for many. The state is going broke partly because of it and our politicians.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    idk, today i read a study that supposedly disproves a lot of the stereotypes, http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...y-myths-busted, done this year. haven't done a lot of research on the study, but its interesting.
    i also think it has a lot more to do with how young you were when you had your kid, not whether or not you were married when you got pregnant. half of all babies born are to unwed couples, people just aren't getting married anymore for the sake of getting married..and then the couples who do get married, a good half of them don't stay that way for long. teen pregnancy rates are also the lowest they've been in years. idk, with the way the economy is..the middle class being systematically destroyed, the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer, its a whole lot more complicated than " people making stupid choices, and then being poor because its their own fault!"

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    I'm glad to see you included the qualifier 'supposedly'. For example, your Cornell study cites a single federal social program when attempting to paint a picture that social welfare spending only amounts to 1/2% of the US federal budget. In point of fact, social welfare spending at the federal level takes place as a bunch of separate programs under the budgets of HUD, Agriculture, HHS, DOE etc. and is far greater than the single program cited. Additionally, states and counties spend huge amounts of money on social programs in addition to the federal spending.

    As a result, Forbes has calculated the following 'equivalent cash values' for the full plate of social welfare benefits available in each state. However, as cited earlier, the relative amount spent by states and counties varies widely.





    and from the Cato study whose data which underlies the Forbes story at

    (snip)"The current welfare system provides such a high level of benefits that it acts as a disincentive for work. Welfare currently pays more than a minimum-wage job in 35 states, even after accounting for the Earned Income Tax Credit, and in 13 states it pays more than $15 per hour. "(snip)

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    The OP posts an article about how a woman killed herself and her children and yet this thread still descends into hating on single and welfare mothers.
    Unbelievable!
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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    ^^^ there's a difference between 'hating on' the NY single mom Lashanda described in the OP's story, and pointing out that ... with $43,700 worth of NY 'equivalent cash value' transferred income and social benefits ... Lashanda wasn't actually poor !!!

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    : 1. Graduate high school ; 2. Stay out of jail ; 3. Don't get married before turning 21 and 4. Don't have children out of wedlock. Not doing any of those four things means there is a 98% chance you will NEVER be poor. Doing just one of the four listed doubles your chances of being poor. Doing two gives you a 95-98 % certainty ( depending on the study ) you will be poor for a LIFETIME.
    This is completely untrue. If you have a high school diploma the job more likely to qualify for is min wage. Min wage jobs in most states are still below the poverty line. Working those jobs still qualifies you for welfare because the wages are so low.

    On one hand you say dont get married and on the other you say dont have children out of wedlock? Make up your mind.

    The reality is that poverty is a much more complex issue for women then these few items. The biggest indicator of poverty is if you are already born into poverty.

    "Research on American mobility published in 2006 and based on collecting data on the economic mobility of families across generations looked at the probability of reaching a particular income-distribution with regard to where their parents were ranked. There is more intergenerational mobility in Australia, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Spain, France, and Canada than in the U.S. In fact, of affluent countries studied, only Britain and Italy have lower intergenerational mobility than the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

    "Sweden has very high single mother rates but single mother families have very low poverty rates. That is because Sweden's policies support caring for children in families. Sweden provides universal health care, generous paid parental and family leave, parenting education, child care (including high quality early childhood education) and other caring public policies.
    And there is even more. The failure of U.S. policies to support caring for people starting in childhood is not only terrible for families; it is terrible for U.S. competitiveness in our global economy.
    Consider that Sweden as well as Norway, Finland and other Northern European nations that invest in caring for their people starting in early childhood are regularly in the highest ranks of the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness reports. These nations are investing in their "human capital" -- in developing their nations' human capacities, which accounts for their remarkable economic success, low poverty rates, low crimes rates and a generally good standard of living for all." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/riane-...b_1823069.html
    Last edited by Vamp; 06-27-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ there's a difference between 'hating on' the NY single mom Lashanda described in the OP's story, and pointing out that ... with $43,700 worth of NY 'equivalent cash value' transferred income and social benefits ... Lashanda wasn't actually poor !!!
    All of these equivalent cash value are calculated assuming the welfare recepiant qualifies for every benefit the state has to offer. Which is impossible. The forbes article also makes the insane recommendation of taxing welfare benefits. The real solution is to raise the min wage and strengthen family employment laws so that people wont need welfare.

    The article the OP posted doesnt even mention welfare at all. It actually says she hated taking any help from anyone. It does say she was unemployed the past year living in a horrible apartment in a bad neighborhood. That screams poor to me.

    Bottom line she was pushed to her limit and took drastic actions in killing herself and her family.

    But you guys never miss an opportunity to whine about welfare.
    Last edited by Vamp; 06-27-2014 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    ^^^ why is taxing of social welfare benefits 'insane' ... Sweden does it, as to many other western European countries. The obvious effect is that the country can 'claim' that it provides generous social welfare benefits, but in fact a fair percentage of the benefit money is 'clawed back' via taxes for citizens whose incomes are above 'rock bottom'. See


    But you guys never miss an opportunity to whine about welfare
    In point of fact, we weren't 'whining' about social welfare programs per se. We were factually pointing out that most Americans receiving social welfare program benefits are not actually 'poor' ... at least not by 3rd world standards !!!

    If in fact the Lashanda from the OP's story chose not to apply for social welfare programs, that was her choice ... as it was also her choice to drive her minivan into the river with her children aboard.

    In regard to long term 'answers' for the supposed US 'poor' ... in basic terms there aren't any. Maintaining X standard of living requires Y dollars. We live in a global economy. People in Asia, Mexico etc. are willing to do more work than US workers for less pay than US minimum wage ... which leaves American businesses with an ultimate choice of paying similarly skilled US workers Asian / Mexican wages ( illegally ), doing away with US jobs altogether in favor of outsourcing to Asia / Mexico, doing away with US jobs altogether in favor of automation, etc. The fact is that the amount of 'value' which can be produced by unskilled US workers today falls far short of covering the Y dollars necessary to maintain X standard of living. And if your advocated policy of simply raising the US minimum wage is followed, the arguable result will actually be more unemployed unskilled US workers like Leshanda, because the available 'savings' to US employers by outsourcing, automation etc. become that much larger !

    From that point there are two basic options ... allow the standard of living for unskilled US workers to drop below X, or tax and transfer enough additional money from skilled US workers to maintain X standard of living for the US 'poor' at the expense of seeing the standard of living of the skilled US workers drop. In states like NY, which has raised taxes to allow the latter, there is now a very real concern that the costs of obtaining higher skills, and the work requirements of the resulting high skill level job, aren't really 'worth it' ... because, net of taxes, the standard of living that can be achieved by the skilled NYer is only marginally above that of an unskilled NYer who is eligible for a cornucopia of social welfare benefits.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-27-2014 at 02:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    in this economy, simply graduating highschool, not getting a felony, and not having kids out of wedlock will GUARANTEE ( to 98%) you will never be poor?? im just finding that VERY hard to believe.
    NOT graduating from high school, committing and being convicted of a felony, and having kids out of wedlock will pretty much guarantee you WILL be poor.

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    ^^^ the larger issue today for Americans wishing to avoid being 'poor' is, coincidentally, the topic of another just released study ... from

    (snip)According to a major new report from the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), net employment growth in the United States since 2000 has gone entirely to immigrants, legal and illegal. Using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, CIS scholars Steven A. Camarota and Karen Zeigler found that there were 127,000 fewer working-age natives holding a job in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000, while the number of immigrants with a job was 5.7 million above the 2000 level.

    The rapidity with which immigrants recovered from the Great Recession, as well as the fact that they held a disproportionate share of jobs relative to their share of population growth before the recession, help to explain their findings, the authors report. In addition, native-born Americans and immigrants were affected differently by the recession.

    Other significant findings include:

    •Because the native-born population grew significantly, but the number working actually fell, there were 17 million more working-age natives not working in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000.

    •The share of natives working or looking for work, referred to as labor force participation, shows the same decline as the employment rate. In fact, labor force participation has continued to decline for working-age natives even after the jobs recovery began in 2010.

    •Immigrants have made gains across the labor market, including lower-skilled jobs such as maintenance, construction, and food service; middle-skilled jobs like office support and health care support; and higher-skilled jobs, including management, computers, and health care practitioners.

    •The supply of potential workers is enormous: 8.7 million native college graduates are not working, as are 17 million with some college, and 25.3 million with no more than a high school education.

    According to the study, 58 million working-age natives are not employed.

    Camarota and Zeigler report three conclusions:

    •First, the long-term decline in the employment for natives across age and education levels is a clear indication that there is no general labor shortage, which is a primary justification for the large increases in immigration (skilled and unskilled) in the Schumer-Rubio bill and similar House proposals.

    •Second, the decline in work among the native-born over the last 14 years of high immigration is consistent with research showing that immigration reduces employment for natives.

    •Third, the trends since 2000 challenge the argument that immigration on balance increases job opportunities for natives. Over 17 million immigrants arrived in the country in the last 14 years, yet native employment has deteriorated significantly.(snip)

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    Default Re: Invisible Poor

    OK theoretically I am supposed to put the hammer down on any and all political posts and threads. But I am not in the mood to be a mean moderator right now.

    Granted the poor often indulge in self-defeating behavior, especially breeding like rabbits and placing a far higher value on rap & sports ability than education. Education is fucking boring & will never get you laid.

    All that being said, the gross imbalance between the very rich and the very poor has reached an unprecedented historical height, save perhaps in the last years of the Roman Empire. And we all know how it turned out for the Romans.

    We need to stop bitching & whining about how much people are getting from social programs, and start thinking about the truly absurd imbalance in wealth ownership in the USA today. It is far more frightening than anything I have seen about Welfare abuse.

    ETA I have edited this 4-5 times trying to be cool. Probably ought to just delete it & might do so.
    Last edited by Djoser; 06-27-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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