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Thread: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

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    Default What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Interesting viewpoint from our old friend Charles Hughes Smith ... from

    (snip)To understand alternatives to conventional corporate/government jobs, we have to understand "the economy we have, not the one we wish we had."
    The average jobseeker is hoping to nail down a corporate or government position, for the usual reasons: security, pay and benefits. This is understandable, and it works for those who do manage to nail down a corporate/government job.

    But what about everyone else? What do they do for a career? And what about those who take the Corporate America/state job and realize it isn't a good match for who they are and where they want to go?

    The conventional options are on the margins of the economy: a low-wage part-time job or risky self-employment. No wonder most people want a secure Corporate America/state gig.

    But there aren't enough secure, high-paying corporate/government jobs for everyone who wants one. The conventional (and carefully unstated) view is: tough luck, welcome to the low-wage serfdom basement of the economy. Take a part-time McJob or three if you can get them and spend your life scraping by.

    I don't see low-wage serfdom as the only alternative to a shiny Corporate America/government bureaucracy job. To understand the alternatives, we have to understand the economy we have, not the one we wish we had or the one we might have in the future.

    I often receive emails asking for job/career advice, and this is to be expected, given my latest book is titled Get a Job, Build a Real Career and Defy a Bewildering Economy.

    My first response is to list the four conditions that make finding paying work easier:

    1. Living in a place with a diverse range of opportunities for work.

    2. Developing a network of people who know I’m looking for work and who trust me to do a good job.

    3. Having more than one skill so I can take a variety of jobs.

    4. Knowing what kind of work I like doing.

    Beyond these common-sense points, job-seekers and those changing careers need to understand the disruptive forces transforming the economy.

    There are three fundamental forces disrupting the conventional order, and everyone with their eyes open sees them at work every day:

    1. Essential resources are becoming more expensive.

    2. The system of expanding credit/debt to fund more consumption (i.e. “growth”) has reached marginal returns and is failing.

    3. Networked software, automation and robotics are reducing the need for human labor on a global scale.

    As a result of these three structural forces, economic instability is not going to go away any time soon. Technology leapfrogs the obsolete and inefficient; no wonder conventional sectors and the market for traditional 9-to-5 jobs are both stagnating.

    The realization that ever-expanding debt and consumption are unsustainable has given rise to a new understanding of the economy called Degrowth (French: décroissance, Spanish: decrecimiento, Italian: decrescita).

    From the perspective of sustainable prosperity, growth based on ever-expanding debt-based consumption is the road to ruin.

    This shift from debt-based consumption to a more productive sustainability is bringing profound changes to the nature of work itself and social arrangements in the workplace.

    Though we can’t foresee all the ramifications of networked software, automation and robotics, we can predict one aspect of this systemic disruption: technology will disrupt the most expensive, least efficient sectors of the economy because that’s where the greatest reductions in cost can be reaped.

    In our economy, these are healthcare, education, government and national defense, all traditionally viewed as stable sectors with guaranteed job security. That is changing, as the soaring costs of these sectors now exceed the economy’s ability to fund them. If an economy expands by 2% each year and healthcare costs rise by 5% each year, eventually healthcare runs out of oxygen—there isn’t enough income generated by the economy to fund its continued expansion.

    Few “experts”—academics, pundits and advisors—have accepted the reality of these forces or thought through the interacting consequences. As a result, we’re on our own in setting a course and navigating the inevitable storms ahead as the old system lurches from crisis to crisis, weakening further as every politically expedient reform fails to address these structural realities.

    Outmoded Career Advice Is the Norm

    Though the transformative power of these three forces is self-evident, remarkably, conventional career counseling is still stuck in the past, offering three basic bits of advice:

    1. Choose a career that aligns with your core talents and interests.

    2. Get as many credentials as you can -- degrees, certifications, etc. -- because the gatekeepers who do the hiring require them.

    3. Since the goal is secure employment, try to get a job in the government or a big corporation.

    In my view, the conventional advice has it all backward. What worked in the past is no longer working because the economy and the nature of work are both being disrupted by forces that cannot be controlled by those threatened by these fundamental changes.

    In the conventional view, a college degree prepares one to enter the workforce. This is no longer true, as higher education has largely failed to keep pace with technology and a fast-changing economy.

    As for adding more credentials to keep ahead of the pack—degree inflation dooms this strategy for all but the few who manage to secure multiple degrees from elite universities. And even this is no guarantee of lifetime security for everyone, as the number of open slots in gatekeeper-dominated institutions is much smaller than the rapidly expanding pool of over-credentialed applicants.

    What matters more than credentials is the ability to keep learning new skills over one’s entire productive life.

    And while it’s certainly solid advice to align one’s work with one’s talents and interests, even this advice misses the key dynamics of the emerging economy—which I define as the parts of the economy that are thriving on innovation rather than depending on cheap credit and asset bubbles for their survival.

    The thriving parts of the economy rely less on gatekeepers and credentials and more on skills, flexibility, professionalism, mastery and networks of collaboration.

    In the emerging economy, security arises not from institutional promises but from a diversity of skills and income streams and a flourishing network of other trustworthy, productive people.

    As a result, the goal for jobseekers isn’t just to identify one’s talents and interests but to acquire a diverse suite of flexible skills and a network that enables you to put these skills to good use.

    In this view, work isn’t what you do between 9 and 5: it’s a lifestyle informed by a flexible, open perspective and guided by entrepreneurial values.(snip)

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Thank you for an excellent article!

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    I agree. Times are changing and the old saying of go to college so you can get a good job just doesn't cut it for me. Who's to say once you graduate from college that you will get a 'good' job. Jobs aren't guaranteed - even once you get one you can easily be laid off (think outsourcing).

    Plus not everyone is made for 9-5 cubicle grind.

    I think the best way is to find your talents, skills, experience and create work for yourself like a consultant or entrepreneur and to network with people in your desired area.

    Otherwise 9-5 it is.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Jobs aren't guaranteed - even once you get one you can easily be laid off (think outsourcing).

    In point of fact, the greatest threat to 'remaining' US jobs is probably no longer outsourcing ( which has pretty much reached it's peak 'utility' already ), but automation

    Robotic waiter ...




    Automated Hamburger 'Chef' ... with programmable toppings and condiments




    Driverless Trucks ... First truck has a human driver, other trucks follow the first truck via robotic control




    Also, in some cases, previous trends toward outsourcing are 'reversing' themselves. However, one really needs to look 'under the hood' in regard to the 'returning' facilities. A great current example is Star Kist Tuna ... which recently (re)opened a US tuna canning facility in Georgia. However, the new facility includes $20 million worth of new automated equipment and comparatively few jobs.

    X years ago, there was still a US facility that employed 2000 low skill level workers. This facility was closed, and the equipment was offshored to a facility in American Samoa to take advantage of sub-minimum wage unskilled labor rates. However, new laws did away with the Samoan sub-minimum wage, leading to the Samoan facility being closed in favor of a brand new facility in Georgia. As a result, where the closed original US facility and closed Samoan facilities provided jobs for 2000 low skill level workers, the new US facility produces the same amount of canned tuna with just 200 workers. However, a significant portion of those 200 workers are highly skilled engineers and technicians needed to set up and maintain the automated equipment. See


    I will also point out that the author has written a second article ( for paid subscribers ) that takes a step beyond the above ... from

    (snip)In the traditional capital/labor model, labor is paid by the hour to perform routine work. In the emerging economy, routine work is increasingly performed by machines or outsourced. In this environment, the premium for human labor arises from creating value and solving problems.

    The tool I use to understand this premium is the matrix of work, which is the overlay of the five forms of value creation: non-process-based work, high touch, non-tradable work, sensitivity of the output to mastery, and flexibility.

    Let’s start with commodification: when goods or services can be traded interchangeably across the globe, these become commodities, as opposed to one-of-a-kind goods and services unique to one small-scale producer. A Fuji apple from Washington State is the same as a Fuji apple from overseas in terms of its tradability and retail value.

    Labor can also be commoditized: if human labor is being sold as time performing basic skills, then the time and basic skills can be bought and sold interchangeably around the world.(snip)


    Arguably, the author comes back to the same point which has arisen in lots of other SW threads ... that future success is contingent on a person's actual ability to create 'added value'. A college education no longer guarantees this. I would also point out that exotic dancing and camming do include at least 3 of the author's 5 forms of value creation, while certain college majors contain zero !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-08-2014 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post


    Driverless Trucks ... First truck has a human driver, other trucks follow the first truck via robotic control


    Hate to see what happens when the first truck, with the human driver, goes through a yellow light at a busy intersection.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    ^^^ In point of fact, the lead and follow truck arrangement is meant for moving freight containers on interstate highways ... so the robotic 'follow me' system only has to deal with entry / exit ramps and truck parking areas. This is the same arrangement, with the same restrictions, presently used for hauling double ( tandem ) trailers ... but without all of the coupling and decoupling, without the truck engine power problems trying to pull two trailers uphill. If, say, six truckloads need to be delivered to the same city, the lone driver leads the robotic 'convoy' to the interstate exit parking area in that city, disengages the robotic follower system, then individually drives each truck to it's specific point of delivery ( which is typically a warehouse located rather close to the interstate highway ).

    I am also told by my older brother ( who is in the trucking business ) that the very first widespread application will involve so-called 'team' drivers for long distance hauling. As you may or may not know, federal laws now limit the maximum number of daily road hours per driver to ten hours per day. Thus a truck with two drivers working as a 'team' can cover ~1400 miles per day where a single driver can only cover ~700. With the robotic follower system and two drivers, it's possible to move a half dozen trailers ( or more ) across the country in a span of 3 days. Best present scenario is two drivers moving two trailers in 3 days ( 20 hrs/day + tandem trailers ), or two drivers moving four trailers in 5 days ( 2 * 10 hrs/day +2 * tandem trailers ).

    My brother also pointed out that the robotic follower system also will save a significant amount of fuel, because the 'follower' trucks can remain close enough behind the lead truck and close enough behind each other to avoid wind resistance ( i.e. 'drafting' ). This is possible because all 6 trucks ( or however many ) 'know' exactly where the other 5 trucks are located, and what the other 5 trucks are going to do next. The only place where human drivers can effectively do that is NASCAR !

    End result is anticipated to be the elimination of present need for 2 out of every 3 long distance truck drivers. In terms of economic consequences, this will be somewhat equivalent to the loss of US manufacturing jobs a generation ago - in the sense that professional long haul truck drivers earn $60k+ per year and support 'middle class' families. In contrast, 'local delivery' drivers ( i.e. UPS, local freight carriers ) typically only earn half that much.

    Circling back to the author's point, long haul truck driving is 'process based' work ... and as such has provided a strong incentive to develop automation. Local delivery truck driving is NON process based work ( because of individual variables at different points of delivery ), thus has not been the target of direct automation ( although drone package delivery will try to make inroads ). Instead local delivery truck driving has been the object of 'commoditization' of labor ... which is why such jobs only pay an average of <$30k per year.

    Of course, the author's 'unspoken' question arguably is this ... how many other 'professional' jobs ... even 'professional' jobs which require extensive college educations ... actually involve 'process based' work elements, thus may also become the target of future automation and/or 'commoditization' of labor ?

    Robot Pharmacist




    Robot Doctor making hospital rounds
    n



    Arguably, in the 'grand scheme of things', we are now at the beginning of a 'second wave' of automation. Where the 'first wave' of automation, which began to attain widespread real world applications ~20-30 years ago, addressed low and medium skill level factory and office work, this 'second wave' of automation is addressing higher skill level work. As such, it creates a potential huge new decision making problem for people who are contemplating investing several years and many thousands of dollars in college educations to qualify them to be ( to pick one straightforward example ), say, pharmacists.

    Given the 'just scratching the surface' automation efforts in the health care industry, for example, which are just now starting to migrate into real world applications, it's difficult to imagine what a hospital may look like ( and what human workers will still be needed ) 20-30 years down the road. But what happens to the people who have invested significant time and money to obtain college degrees based on the presumption that their 'profession' will remain in high demand over the course of a 45+ year career ??? In the case of pharmacists, it's not only possible but probable that, 20 years from now, today's business model of 'one Walgreens, one pharmacist' will be replaced with 'one Walgreens, one prescription filling robot' ... with a single human pharmacist being responsible for reloading drugs and checking proper robot operation at, say, three different Walgreens locations.

    What happens to the pay rate of the one remaining pharmacist, given the huge surplus of qualified and suddenly unemployed pharmacists that will appear once robotic prescription filling starts to become commonplace ? More importantly, what happens to the other five ( human ) pharmacists who formerly worked ( day and night shift ) at those three Walgreens locations who are no longer needed ? Hmmm ... those other 5 pharmacists wind up being able to work as pharmacists until they reach age 40 or so, at which point they are 'left to their own devices' for the remaining 25 years before they reach legal retirement age. During the intervening ~20 years between college and losing their job to 'second wave' automation, the comparatively low 'starting' pay rates during early years, higher taxes, and student loan repayments, force the pharmacists' lifestyle to remain rather 'frugal'. Then, just at the point where traditional 'professional' careers start to pay off ... i.e. student loans have been repaid, seniority starts to lead to promotions and increased pay rate, etc., these 'professionals' find themselves both out of a job and out of a career.

    Thus will those 5 future ( former ) pharmacists actually be any better off at age 40+ than if they had chosen NOT to spend the time and money to obtain their pharmacy degrees in the first place ? Tough question ! And especially tough to answer given the fact that investing 4 years of time and tuition money to obtain a pharmacy degree also means absorbing the 'lost opportunity costs' of not earning a significant amount of money doing something else during those 4 college years. Author Charles Hughes Smith makes no secret of his opinion that, in the longer term future, the only degrees which are likely to 'pay for themselves' will be Ivy League degrees which are able to open otherwise 'locked' major corporation doors, and advanced / post-grad degrees which are able to open otherwise 'locked' doors regarding gov't ( and gov't contracted / sponsored ) employment.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-09-2014 at 08:16 PM. Reason: '

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    "What matters more than credentials is the ability to keep learning new skills over one’s entire productive life.

    And while it’s certainly solid advice to align one’s work with one’s talents and interests, even this advice misses the key dynamics of the emerging economy—which I define as the parts of the economy that are thriving on innovation rather than depending on cheap credit and asset bubbles for their survival.

    The thriving parts of the economy rely less on gatekeepers and credentials and more on skills, flexibility, professionalism, mastery and networks of collaboration.

    In the emerging economy, security arises not from institutional promises but from a diversity of skills and income streams and a flourishing network of other trustworthy, productive people.

    As a result, the goal for jobseekers isn’t just to identify one’s talents and interests but to acquire a diverse suite of flexible skills and a network that enables you to put these skills to good use."

    ^This. I am educated to post-grad level and have a corporate career, but the things that have allowed me to survive are my flexibility, networking skills and will to do whatever it takes to make money. In the past 12 onths i have gone from working in a corporate job to having no job, teaching dance, working in bars and waiting tables (just the once, i was terrible at it) to recovering to take what is the best paid and positioned job i've had yet. I didn't get there by trying to jump through qualification hoops or painting myself into a particular career box, I made an asset of my diverse experience and showed the ability to adapt and transform and thrive in the course of change.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    In the past 12 onths i have gone from working in a corporate job to having no job, teaching dance, working in bars and waiting tables (just the once, i was terrible at it) to recovering to take what is the best paid and positioned job i've had yet. I didn't get there by trying to jump through qualification hoops or painting myself into a particular career box, I made an asset of my diverse experience and showed the ability to adapt and transform and thrive in the course of change.
    This is exactly what author Charles Hughes Smith was alluding to in his article ... that, outside of working for the gov't or a 'crony capitalist' corporation where future paychecks are essentially guaranteed by taxpayer money, that there is no longer any real world job security. And, on top of that, things are now changing so quickly that the 'market' need for a particular skill ... or even a particular 'profession' ... could mostly cease to exist well before the skilled / 'professional' person is able to reach official retirement age. As such, for those who can't / won't be able to wind up working for the gov't or 'crony capitalist' major corporation, there will be little choice but to continuously 'adapt' as you have done ... taking widely diverse jobs requiring widely diverse ( and sometimes newly learned ) skills ... as real world future situations require.


    I am educated to post-grad level and have a corporate career, but the things that have allowed me to survive are my flexibility, networking skills and will to do whatever it takes to make money
    This is an 'angle shot' on another of the author's points about the 'value' of college education itself these days. I wonder how other former college students who graduated along with you have fared - having the same college degree but lacking your flexibility and willingness to adapt ???
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-10-2014 at 09:23 AM.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Melonie, i'm not in touch with anyone i went to university with, it would be interesting to know. If I was a young person today i doubt i'd bother with a degree, it simply doesn't offer the return on investment it once did.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Thank you Melonie! Just thought I'd share this video that I had just seen the other day, as it ties it rather appropriately to the automation aspect of this thread.

    And thank you, spartaca. THIS: hear hear! "I didn't get there by trying to jump through qualification hoops or painting myself into a particular career box, I made an asset of my diverse experience and showed the ability to adapt and transform and thrive in the course of change."


    http://youtu.be/7Pq-S557XQU
    "You know what the best boobs are in the world?
    The ones I haven't seen yet!" - customer


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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    ^^^ indeed that video summarizes lots of aspects of this thread. I was a bit disheartened by one segment though ... where the video's producer subtly equates future unskilled people after this 'second wave' of automation with horses after the advent of cars. trucks ( and tanks ).

    However, that video side-steps a critical issue where past, present and future automation is concerned. That issue, of course, is that the financial 'fruits' of the robot's 'labor' accrue only to the owners of the robots. This essentially means that most people who haven't managed to inherit or earn / save enough wealth to become a robot owner ( or a stockholder in companies that profit from robot 'labor' ) by the time that this 'second wave' of automation is implemented won't have much to look forward to in the way of economic opportunity !!!

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Excellent discussion, enjoyed reading everyone viewpoint. I have to great with everyone in here what they said, I think big problem that we will see more machines replacing humans. Is that the minimum wage increase, so small business owners and place like fast food chains are replacing workers with robots to cut back on the cost. As a result of this they will still be able to keep their prices cheap and affordable for consumers instead of increasing it. I do think its sad that we are being replaced by robots. Also as someone who is trying to get a federal job there are so many blockades in place as I used to work for the federal government. One of them since the war in Iraq and Afgan federal agency must hire all veterans. If you are not non-veteran applying for a federal job and a veteran applies to the same announcement you applied to, then you will be automatically disqualified. There is even a law that all veterans must be hired. Another thing with government jobs, that most of the listing you see online is probably a position for their friend or relative. I seen this happen at the agency I work at all of times, the reason they don't get caught is because the agency is california and supervisor works in DC. The only why for them to get caught is if someone reports them, but no one wants to be a whistler blower.They need to build connections and keep their mouth shut, because one day that friend will do the same for them. I enjoyed reading you guys post very much : )

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    ^^^ This obviously agrees with my author's observation ... that access to government jobs ( as well as crony corporation jobs ) is controlled by figurative 'gatekeepers'. Getting by those 'gatekeepers' may mean that the applicant knows the 'right' person, or has a degree from the 'right' sort of college, or has the 'right' friends and/or family connections, etc. My author's point, of course, was that future access to government and corporate jobs will become increasingly difficult for an 'average' applicant ... regardless of that applicant's actual abilities to perform that gov't / corporate job.

    In regard to the 'second wave' of automation, without offering additional commentary, it is an undeniable fact that 'all in' costs of US labor ( i.e. employee pay rate, plus employer's cost of mandated employee benefits, plus employee pay rate based employer taxes ) is already high by world economy standards, and in some cases is rising even higher. At the same time, FED policy to hold interest rates at record low levels now makes it less expensive than ever for a company to borrow and repay money to make capital investments in robots and automatic machinery. Also, as the wide range of previous examples illustrates, this is by no means confined to the 'minimum wage' end of the pay scale. In point of fact, the most recent 'targets' for automation R&D are 'professional' jobs i.e. pharmacists, long distance truck drivers, etc.

    From a business owner / stockholder standpoint, it boils down to a fairly simple equation that investing $50k - $250,000 in a robot or automatic machine one time ... which in turn eliminates the need for 2, 5 or however many existing employees each costing $20-60k per year in salary, plus $5-15k per year in benefit costs, plus yet another $2-6k per year in employer SSI taxes and ACA taxes ... 'pays for itself' in relative cost savings rather quickly.

    And beyond that direct, easily calculated, cost equation, there are also indirect ( but more difficult to calculate ) cost savings for the employer. For example, generally speaking, robots and automated machinery always show up for work, never have lengthy absences due to vacations / pregnancy / sickness or injury, never make 'mistakes' when performing their assigned tasks, never have dependents with expensive to treat health problems who the employer must insure, never file sexual harassment ( or other ) lawsuits against the employer, never picket in front of the employer's place of business, don't expect an employer contribution to their 'retirement fund' etc. While it's hard to put a dollar sign value on these secondary savings for employers, it is certainly substantial.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-22-2014 at 06:27 AM.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    I agree Melonie, I think what makes it difficult is that companies are looking for people with same fit as the job description. I have a agriculture b.s., and I applied for entry level work which requires knowing how to use a phone, fax,and copier. They want people resume to say that you know how to use things, but people like me dont put that stuff in the resume. We as people assume the company will look at your degree, and say this guy has a degree he knows how to use a phone.

    Colleges/universities need to restructure there education to more hands on learning, instead of making students sit in classroom reading a text that makes no sense. The professors needs to take out the student and do real life lessons. This would allow the students to graduate with both work experience and a degree. Education is becoming like a scam, because universities want to raise the tuition cost to make there campus bigger.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Sorry didn't realize my mobile posted twice

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    I think what makes it difficult is that companies are looking for people with same fit as the job description. I have a agriculture b.s., and I applied for entry level work which requires knowing how to use a phone, fax,and copier. They want people resume to say that you know how to use things, but people like me dont put that stuff in the resume. We as people assume the company will look at your degree, and say this guy has a degree he knows how to use a phone.
    The feedback I have heard from many 'businessman' acquaintances in this regard is that they tend to try and avoid hiring applicants who are 'overqualified' for the job they need filled. Their reason is economic based ... that, no matter how educated / talented the person is, there is still a 'cost' to the employer during the new employee's training / learning period ( i.e. reduced productivity, mistakes which cost the company money, etc) . Thus replacing an employee involves not only these learning curve related indirect 'costs', but also the direct costs of advertising the job opening, performing background checks, drug tests, initial gov't paperwork filings, etc. for the newly hired employee, etc.

    My 'businessmen' acquaintances always make the assumption that any 'overqualified' applicant they hire will still continue looking for a better, higher paying job which would better utilize their college education and skills. Thus, hiring an 'overqualified' applicant is very likely to result in that employee quitting after a few weeks or months as the result of actually finding that better, higher paying job. This again leaves the business with an unfilled job opening, plus a new requirement to spend additional money (re)advertising the job opening, (re)performing background checks and drug tests, (re)filing gov't paperwork, etc., plus another bout of indirect costs resulting from the lower productivity and/or mistakes made by yet another new employee's training / learning period.

    Of course, this adds another couple of points to the previous 'list' ... robots and automatic machinery never fail a drug test, never 'quit' their current job in favor of a 'better' job offer, and never require the employer to file gov't paperwork ( or to process paycheck tax withholding payments to the gov't ).
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-22-2014 at 04:23 PM.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    It also seems like a week doesn't pass without some other 'profession' being targeted by robots and/or automatic machines. The latest is from Carnival Cruise Lines ... from

    Robot Bartenders ...



    (snip)It actually looks like a robot ... (although) it's not a humanoid robot," Royal Caribbean chairman Richard Fain said of the drink-slinging device planned for a venue called the Bionic Bar on the line's much-awaited Quantum of the Seas. The ship is scheduled to debut in late October and sail from New York.

    Speaking at an event at the German shipyard where Quantum of the Seas is under construction, Fain said the robot will be similar to those seen at car factories. Customers will order drinks via tablets and then can watch as the machine prepares them -- with an occasional assist from a human.

    "It's a single arm, and it will go get the ice and the mints and the lemons, and it will squeeze them and shake them," Fain said, adding that the sky's the limit on what passengers eventually will be able to order. "You can be quite customized. That's part of the whole concept of cruising."

    The announcement comes as the idea of robot-served bars gains steam. Just last year a humanoid robot-served theme bar, the Robots Bar and Lounge, opened in Illmenau, Germany, and several start-up companies including Monsieur are developing more utilitarian robot bartenders for use at bars and at home.(snip)

    The robotic mechanism at the base of this new bar is shown in action below ...




    ^^^ obviously, the setup shown above is both expensive and space consuming. Thus the number of applications is likely to be very few. However, scaling back from 'full' robots, automatic machines designed to mix drinks are now available and affordable, and are selling out faster than the manufacturer can produce them. From

    (snip)"People crowd the bar on a Saturday night; you can see a sheen of sweat forming on the bartender’s forehead as he hurries to complete the latest in a long line of drink orders. You wait behind a group of raucous women who don’t seem to understand the concept of “indoor voices.” Sighing, you look to your right and behold a most welcome sight.

    “Monsieur,” you cry out, gasping with delight. “I have been searching for you my whole life. And—forgive my forwardness—may I say you are looking quite dapper this evening.”

    Monsieur does not answer, nor does he acknowledge the gentle caress of your hand across his top. This is because—naturally—he is not human.

    Barry Givens, CEO of Monsieur, designed the robotic bartender, which can not only create drinks from up to eight mixers and liquors (and soon will offer beer, wine and champagne) but can also measure your blood-alcohol level, send you a text when you are over the legal limit and prompt you to call a cab.

    You can also program Monsieur to have your favorite cocktail ready for you when you arrive home after a long day at the office, although the robotic bartender comes at a price: $5,000, a set-up fee of $1,000, and a $299 monthly subscription fee.

    The Monsieur may have all the right bells and whistles and a fancy touch screen, but the average bartender need not view his robotic compatriot as competition. In this writer’s mind, nothing can truly replace a quality, human bartender. The best that any drinker can expect from the Monsieur is adequacy. The Monsieur will never laugh at your feeble jokes, nor offer you a drink on the house, nor even complain to you about the other patrons of the bar, encouraging your deluded belief that you are his favorite customer. And if we’re being honest, that’s what really matters in a bartender.

    So, for now, let us eagerly await the arrival of such mediocre bartenders as the Monsieur, who will offer us a drink when no one else is able but who will never truly hold a place in our restless hearts.(snip)





    Obviously, unlike the full-on robotic setup, automatic drink mixing machines like Monsieur aren't aimed to totally replace human bartenders. Instead, they are intended to replace SOME of the human bartenders who would normally be needed to keep up with the 'demand' of a fairly busy bar ... or to allow a waiter / waitress to 'mix' their own drinks for restaurant ( and potentially strip club ) customers. Monsieur is actually built in Atlanta GA by a privately held company that has something like 12 total employees.

    If one Monsieur ( or competitor automatic mixing machines ) is able to replace one or two human bartenders ... at a cost of $6,000 up front plus $3600 per year for contract 'maintenance', versus a cost of $16k+ per year in human bartender wages, plus employer SSI taxes etc. ... it's pretty easy to understand why they can't build these automatic drink mixing machines fast enough. And that's without also factoring in 'over-pouring' of expensive spirits, 'free' drinks being given away, etc. by former human bartenders !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-25-2014 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The feedback I have heard from many 'businessman' acquaintances in this regard is that they tend to try and avoid hiring applicants who are 'overqualified' for the job they need filled. Their reason is economic based ... that, no matter how educated / talented the person is, there is still a 'cost' to the employer during the new employee's training / learning period ( i.e. reduced productivity, mistakes which cost the company money, etc) . Thus replacing an employee involves not only these learning curve related indirect 'costs', but also the direct costs of advertising the job opening, performing background checks, drug tests, initial gov't paperwork filings, etc. for the newly hired employee, etc.

    My 'businessmen' acquaintances always make the assumption that any 'overqualified' applicant they hire will still continue looking for a better, higher paying job which would better utilize their college education and skills. Thus, hiring an 'overqualified' applicant is very likely to result in that employee quitting after a few weeks or months as the result of actually finding that better, higher paying job. <<Snip>>
    Mel, do you realize how incongruous that last highlighted statement is with your incessant stream of posts/pastes proclaiming the disappearance of good paying middle class jobs ? Which is it- are your acquaintances concern on employee retention unfounded, or do good jobs actually exist for people to move up/into ? Why not just come out and say that your bean counter acquaintances (or the bean counter in them) simply abhor the thought of actually having to add 1 new human being to the payroll ?
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    Why not just come out and say that your bean counter acquaintances (or the bean counter in them) simply abhor the thought of actually having to add 1 new human being to the payroll ?
    Actually, my 'greedy' 1% earner acquaintances ... and their lawyers and accounts ... LOVE the opportunity to add a highly paid 'professional' employee to the payroll. However, this now only happens if adding that 'high tech' employee also means that they can drop several low skill level employees from their payroll !

    In fact, I found out about the Monsieur drink mixing machines from just such an acquaintance who owns two upscale restaurants ... who recently purchased four of the machines ( two for each location ), and hired one new employee to travel between the two locations, clean the machines out, fill them up, and keep them working correctly ... as well as maintaining the two restaurants' point of sale computers and other equipment ( which also means he's on call 16 hours per day 6 days per week ). But my acquaintance was also able to fire two bartenders on day shift plus two more bartenders on night shift ( again, one at each location ). Thanks to the Monsieur machines, day shift waitstaff can now operate without a bartender present ( thus pocketing larger tips ), and the two remaining night shift bartenders ( one at each location ) are able to both push more drinks across the bar faster with two Monsieur machines behind him than with a second human bartender working beside him, and are also able to pocket 'twice as many' tips from bar patrons.

    Granted that day shift restaurant customers are now limited to the 20 or so different drink recipes the Monsieur machines are set up to mix ... but my acquaintance said that only a couple of customers have commented about it. In fact many day shift restaurant customers aren't even aware that the human bartender is no longer there. From the customers' perspective, they give their order to their waitress the same as always, and watch her walk over to the side of the bar like always, and return with their drinks as always.

    My acquaintance commented that, as the result of the Monsieur machines, the waitstaff is happier ... the two remaining human bartenders are happier ... the new technician is happy ... the customers are happy ... and of course my acquaintance and his investors are VERY happy. But I doubt my acquaintance has asked the four ex-bartenders how happy THEY are right now.


    In regard to the highlighted statement you refer to, it is true ... but must be kept in perspective. If a college graduate with a teaching degree applies for a $10 an hour job as, say, a shipping clerk working for one of my 1% acquaintance's companies ... and later receives an offer for a $12 an hour job as a day care center assistant ... it's highly probable that she'll quit the $10 an hour job and leave my 1% acquaintance having to cover the absence + spend additional money to check out, hire, and train a 'replacement' shipping clerk. However, this does NOT mean that she was actually able to land the $25 an hour job as a teacher she spent 5 years becoming qualified for.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-27-2014 at 03:51 PM.

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That really didn't answer my question. Namely, the duplicity of being concerned that an overqualified low level employee would leave for a better job, yet the automation "rage" is eliminating several of those supposed better jobs. I would wager that a good bartender would make more (especially with tips) than the $10 and $12/hr examples that you provide. Then again, your acquaintance could raise the wage to $12/hr, and worry less about turnover.

    Lastly, for an "overqualified" graduate taking whatever comes along, there's a certain hazard to job hopping too much. Someone having 3 different employers within a 6-9 month period in jobs that don't really improve the teachers credentials may be viewed as a less stable/reliable candidate. Granted, a 20% raise is significant, but teacher degree person would be overqualified for either job. In the meantime, several graduates have to pay their dues in jobs below/outside their degree specialty. Maybe the day care assistant job came open as a result of prior assistant getting a bartender job, or even a teacher position.

    I have seen automation reduce total employee headcount which is easy for a bean counter to go gaga over. Just remember that robots don't buy products, or win new customers over for a business. I don't recall a voicemail maze ever convincing me to choose one product/service over another one.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: What Are the Options for Those Who Can't/Won't Get a Corporate/Government Job?

    ^^^ I'm certainly not in a position to try and tell my very successful businessman acquaintances how to run their businesses. And I would speculate that my businessman acquaintances would respond to a 'duplicity' charge by pointing out their 'fiduciary responsibility' to investors. Paying workers 20% more money than competing businesses do would arguably be a breach of 'fiduciary duty'. The 'high roller' investors who actually put up the bulk of the venture capital to fund new business operations expect to see high profits in return for the 'risky' investments they are making. No high profits = no ( additional ) investor capital = no ( additional ) 'new' jobs.

    Or put another way, private sector businesses and investors have no duty whatsoever to help 'overqualified' workers - who chose to go into debt to obtain educational credentials which are 'unmarketable' - to pay off that debt. Arguably, gov'ts and gov't funded 'crony corporations' might have such an objective in the 'back of their minds'. This is why the OP author differentiates the two. Arguably, govt's and 'crony corporations' are not held to the same standards of 'fiduciary duty' in assuring that taxpayers receive maximum 'value' in exchange for their money.

    When a development comes along like robots or automatic machinery, businesses who choose to 'embrace' such new developments are likely to prosper ... while businesses who do not embrace it are likely to begin a higher labor + benefit cost driven 'death spiral'. There is 100+ years worth of history in this regard involving manufacturing industries. The change which is now taking place with today's 'second wave' of automation, however, is that the workers now being 'targeted' by automation are primarily in service industries.

    I would also point out that private sector businesses do not operate in a 'vacuum' ... they operate in a competitive environment versus similar businesses across the street / across town / across the country etc. Thus when a new development like robots and automation comes along, if just one or two new businesses embraces the new technology it provides that business with a lower cost structure ... thus the ability to lower prices to customers and/or improve quality provided to customers. If a competing business chooses not to embrace the same new technology their cost structure remains high ... thus making it increasingly impossible for that competing business to simultaneously remain profitable, while also providing equal customer prices / quality, while also continuing to pay their human workers the same amount.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-28-2014 at 09:46 AM.

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