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Thread: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ indeed there is a contingent of 'talking heads' who make that prediction. But their math draws questions when 2 million people are immigrating to the USA each year, when US companies are adding robots and automatic machinery at a record pace, etc. ... from http://www.robotics.org/content-deta...ontent_id/4648

    (snip)Ann Arbor, Michigan – Following a strong year in 2012, the North American robotics market recorded its best year ever in 2013 in terms of robot shipments, according to new statistics from Robotic Industries Association (RIA), the industry’s trade group.

    A total of 22,591 robots valued at $1.39 billion were shipped to companies in North America in 2013, beating the previous record of 20,328 robots valued at $1.29 billion shipped in 2012. These new records for robotic shipments represent growth of 11% in units and seven percent in dollars.(snip)

    Given that one robot or automatic machine ( with automatic machines vastly outnumbering the 22,600 actual 'robots' added by US companies last year ) can effectively replace multiple human jobs, the effect of this 'second wave' of automation is actually unknown at this point. But it certainly reduces present and future demand for US labor.

    ... and on the 'flip side' , when one looks past massaged and cherry-picked statistics, 'real' jobs data is a bit surprising. Per the BLS, total US non-farm payroll employment in 2000 was 130.8 million people. The most recent July 2014 BLS report shows total US non-farm payroll employment at 139 million people. Thus 8 million jobs were added during that period. But during that period, the US population went from 282 million to 319 million. Thus 37 million additional American residents got to 'fight' over 8 million additional jobs.

    In reality, the number is somewhat less given that newly born Americans and some number of new immigrants have yet to reach 'working age'. But that means that when they DO reach 'working age', they will instantly add to the supply of available US labor without an associated population increase. Again, this certainly doesn't appear to represent a 'tightening' of US labor supply. And it goes without saying that reaching 'working age' also means reaching 'voting' age.

    Yes, granted that more and more Americans are entering the arena of 'self-employment', which arguably adds jobs without adding payroll employment. But on the other side of that is the shrinking number of full time jobs, versus the rapidly expanding number of part time jobs. I'll leave the issue as a 'maybe' ... given that we really won't find out for another decade.

    However, in the shorter term, there's no question that America has an over-supply of available labor. But, as touched on earlier in this thread, there in fact may be a shortage of 'WILLING' labor !!! While the authors' 'theory' claims that immigrants / social welfare benefit recipients have, on average, lower IQ's, that certainly doesn't mean that they can't do some basic algebra and figure out that taking a $10 an hour unskilled job, but losing eligibility for medicaid, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities, SSI disability etc. leaves them 'worse off' by working than if they 'avoid' a job offer. And on the other end of the skills scale, some number of unemployed US skilled labor and/or 'professionals' may not be 'willing' to accept a replacement job offer - with a pay rate driven down by H1-B skilled immigrants, with after hours / travel requirements etc. which their previously eliminated job did not carry - versus collecting extended unemployment benefits and then filing for SSI disability ( or taking early retirement ).
    Immigration is way down, at least from Mexico.

    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/2...-perhaps-less/

    Approximately 80 million Americans were born between 1946 and 1965. Once these people start retiring in large numbers, the demand for workers should increase significantly.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^^ Maybe SAT scores are decreasing because people don't have to take them? They don't have to, and they don't need to.

    Many people have no need to take an SAT test if they plan to do technical jobs (manual labor, etc), entrepreneurial business, and even a lot of universities. I even made it into graduate school without ever taking an SAT or GRE test. Neither were ever required, for some reason.

    And I think a lot of other people just don't want to be book-smart, so those people also never take SATs or standardized testing after high school. There's really no point for them to do so if they don't want to. SAT scores were higher before now because not everyone attended college... and it was only the people that really wanted to be there.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    That is a good point about tests. I did take the PSAT in school but never took the ACT or the SAT because the schools I attended never required them, they had their own tests. When I got to graduate school some degrees required it but my degree didn't, just required a related undergraduate and a GPA of at least 3.0. If I go and get my Ph.D I'll have to take the GRE but otherwise haven't needed any of them.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    psshh when i took the SATs i was 16 or 17, stoned, daydreaming out the window half the time, they probably thought i had an IQ around room temperature.. i was a teenager, i couldn't have cared less about it at that time so those are probably not a good measure haha, i know i can't be the only kid who got a bad score because i just didn't care

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    Search Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Immigration is way down, at least from Mexico.
    Agreed that this is a recent phenomenon ... with 'net' migration meaning that many illegal immigrants have recently chosen to return to Mexico because they couldn't find American jobs ( legal or illegal ) which made it worthwhile for them to stay in the USA. Arguably, this is the result of increased enforcement toward US employers who hire illegal immigrants, combined with automation continuing to reduce the need for low skill workers. Also, this mostly applies to single male immigrants who came to the US with the intention of 'remitting' their American earnings to families back in Mexico. See your same source

    It arguably does not apply where US citizen children, thus social welfare benefit eligibility for the entire household, are involved.


    Approximately 80 million Americans were born between 1946 and 1965. Once hese people start retiring in large numbers, the demand for workers should increase significantly.
    ... and, right now, there are 92 million Americans who are 'not in the workforce' - see . This means that a significant number of those born between 1946 an 1965 have already 'retired', and also means that ... in addition to ongoing legal and illegal immigration ... there will still be an overhang of tens of millions of Americans without jobs available to fill those future retirement based job openings.

    Of course, the real question is whether or not those tens of millions of unemployed Americans, or those 2 million legal and illegal immigrants per year, will be 'qualified' to fill those future retirement based job openings. Based on the author's 'theory', in many cases, the answer will likely be no !!! Based on the authors' 'theory', American companies will continue to reach out to foreign countries for more skilled H1-B workers to fill many of those future retirement based job openings ... because the vast majority of 'available' American labor either isn't qualified, or isn't 'willing' to deal with the employer's requirements of long hours, unexpected travel, putting job before family etc. As pointed out at , both doctors and engineers are now taking early retirements in unprecedented numbers for related reasons.

    The implied point, of course, is that the vast majority of Americans who have 'left the workforce', as well as the vast majority of legal and illegal immigrants, are not qualified to fill openings created when doctors and engineers ( or a host of other 'professions' and 'technical specialties' ) retire. Moreover, the vast majority do not have the prerequisites necessary to become qualified, even if they had the motivation to do so. Instead, what you have are tens of millions of unemployed US residents who do not have skills which are of 'value' to employers, and who also do not have the aptitude nor the motivation to acquire such skills.

    As the authors' 'theory' speculates, what many of those Americans who have left the workforce, and the majority of legal and illegal immigrants DO have motivation for is to make babies ... because additional children increases social welfare benefit amounts the household receives. Also, in the case of illegal immigrants, US citizen children provide protection against possible deportation.

    As the author's 'theory' implies, the additional costs associated with those increased social welfare benefits winds up causing increased taxes on US businesses and US workers, as well as causing increased costs for all Americans as a result of the gov't 'printing money out of nowhere' to help pay for social welfare benefit costs which tax revenues cannot cover. This in turn motivates US businesses to expect 'more' out of their workers. And with US workers thus facing both increased job pressures and increased financial pressures due to their own rising costs, the authors' 'theory' states that those US workers are less likely to disrupt their careers / earnings / standard of living by having ( more ) children.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-26-2014 at 05:33 AM.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Fascinating discussion. Just a few points if I may :

    I think there is a dietary connection.
    I think all this texting and gaming is limiting to children when it keeps them from THINKING and playing intellectually stimulating games.
    Part of it might be more intelligent women having fewer children. Genetics certainly plays a role.
    I think that education and intelligence ARE connected. Every brain study says "use it or lose it ". So the more intellectual stimulation the better. BUT then the question arises as to whether children are being taught to think ; to reason; OR just how to take tests .
    Are there any studies showing INCREASED I.Q. scores ? In Asia ? Anywhere in the world ? If so , how do we account for the increase ?

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^^ in regard to your question ... from


    (snip)If you look at the Wechsler [ Wechsler Intelligence Scale - sic ] gains abroad, they are pretty close to U.S. gains. There was a period of high historic gains in Scandinavia; these seem to have tailed off as the century waned. I thought that might be true of other countries as well. Maybe the engine that powers IQ gains was running out of fuel? But the latest data from South Korea, America, Germany and Britain show the gains still humming along at that same rate into the 21st century.(snip)

    (snip)The ultimate cause is the Industrial Revolution. It affects our society in innumerable ways. The intermediate causes are things like smaller family size. If you have a better ratio of adults to children in the home, than an adult vocabulary predominates rather than a child vocabulary. Family size fell in the last century throughout the Western world. Formal schooling is terribly important; it helps you think in the way that IQ testers like. In 1910, schools were focused on kids memorizing things about the real world. Today, they are entirely about relationships. There is also the fact that so many more of us are pursuing cognitively demanding professions. Compared to even 1950, the number of people who are doing technical, managerial or professional jobs has risen enormously. The fact that our leisure has switched away from merely recovery from work towards cognitively taxing pleasures, like playing video games, has also been important.(snip)

    (snip)The question is why are parents less capable of socializing their children into their own vocabulary than they were 50 years ago? I can only imagine that some cultural barrier has built up that insulates the speech of children from the speech of adults.

    Could teenage subculture be this barrier? The word “teenager” didn’t exist in 1950. I was a teenager in 1950, and like everyone else, I wanted to become an adult as quick as possible to get access to money, sex, privacy and a car. Today, teenagers have all of those things without becoming adults. They have enormous purchasing power, and they have developed their own subculture, which is often antagonistic towards their parents. They often have their own speech patterns from texting and slang. I suspect that at least for teenagers a cultural barrier has developed between parent and child. What has happened with younger children, I am still investigating.(snip)


    ... thus the Smithsonian author's analysis actually comes to similar conclusions as the original author's 'theory', but via the back door. Larger family sizes, as well as 'poor communications' between parents and children, contribute to lower IQ scores. By extrapolation, so does the presence / absence of the father in the child's household. These factors obviously directly correlate to the significant number of US citizen single mothers having Medicaid covered births, to the majority of legal and illegal immigrants having large family sizes once they are residing in the US, to a majority of US citizen single mothers and legal / illegal immigrants having a limited amount of formal education themselves, etc.

    Also, by extrapolation, parents who are not themselves educated or 'assimilated' are less able to communicate 'valuable' information ( valuable regarding IQ test results, at any rate ) to their children. Also, by extrapolation, the likelihood of ongoing increases in IQ's of foreign countries would appear to be related to the relative rates of immigration they allow, and the relative size of any 'unassimilated' immigrant groups present in those countries.

    Lastly, in regard to IQ scores no longer rising in Scandinavian countries, by 'pure coincidence' ...

    (snip)While the fifth night of unrest was not as bad as the previous four, signs indicate it may be spreading to other cities across the country.

    These riots are yet another social problem directly caused by Europe’s financial crisis.

    When times are good, EU nations are able to sustain high levels of immigration with relatively few problems. However, rising unemployment is fueling anger and even hatred among immigrants and natives.

    While Sweden’s overall unemployment rate is at 8.2 percent—well below the EU’s average of 10.9—its youth unemployment is high, at 23.5 percent. With unemployment at this level, people begin to blame immigrants: Our children can’t find work, because the immigrants are taking all the jobs.(snip)
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-26-2014 at 12:59 PM.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    This kind of relates to this but I saw something like this today. I had to take my mom to the doctor. The receptionist had an Indian accent and likely from India. There were several moms who came in who were receiving welfare. One had two small kids and pregnant with a third. She had trouble reading the papers she had to sign (no she wasn't an illegal). She's been on welfare a few years according to her conversation with the receptionist. This means someone too stupid to use birth control is also creating more who will also likely be stupid.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    This kind of relates to this but I saw something like this today. I had to take my mom to the doctor. The receptionist had an Indian accent and likely from India. There were several moms who came in who were receiving welfare. One had two small kids and pregnant with a third. She had trouble reading the papers she had to sign (no she wasn't an illegal). She's been on welfare a few years according to her conversation with the receptionist. This means someone too stupid to use birth control is also creating more who will also likely be stupid.
    Wait how can you look at someone and know they are receiving welfare? Even paperwork, that's typically general.

    And even with welfare, you can only be on it for a maximum of 5 years ever, regardless of how many kids you have.

    Lastly, lots of people get pregnant on birth control, even with perfect use.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^^ if it involved a doctor's office, it would have been Medicaid ... which has no time limit. Also the 'clock' on other social welfare benefits won't 'expire' until the youngest child reaches age 18, and Medicaid eligibility goes hand in hand with eligibility for food stamps, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities, cash TANF, etc. But that's somewhat off topic.

    Also, the presence of a H1-B visa immigrant health care office assistant is no surprise. Medicaid / Public Exchange health insurance has reduced 'reimbursement' rates paid to doctors treating Medicaid / Public Exchange health insurance patients significantly ... thus doctor's offices need to cut costs wherever possible to counteract the reduced payments they are receiving ( which in many cases are now below the actual doctor's cost of providing that medical service ). An obvious way to do that is to replace native US health care workers with H1-B visa health care workers who are 'happy' to work for a lower hourly pay rate. Again this is somewhat off topic.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    I knew she was on medicaid because she mentioned it and showed a card. Yes birth control fails but THREE times? I call bullshit on that. She was probably getting pregnant for more welfare, that has been what I've seen.

    I suspect the worker was a visa worker because this system is known for bringing in visa workers. It goes without saying that perhaps this system is getting too many medicaid patients and yes they need to cut costs somewhere.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^^ again not wanting to drift off topic, but previous comments tend to indicate that the concept of 'reimbursement rates' might not be fully understood. Basically, Medicare, Medicaid and narrow network Public Health insurance, simply 'dictate' that they will pay a certain amount to a doctor for performing a particular service ... with no regard to the doctor's actual costs to provide that service. So, for example, the 'reimbursement rate' for a sonogram might be $250 ... while the all-in cost to the doctor's office to pay for the sonogram machine, the personnel costs for record-keeping and billing, the doctor's time, office utility bills and rent etc. might come out to be $350. The doctor's office would typically offset this 'loss' by charging a privately insured or self-pay patient $400 for the same sonogram. However, as the relative number of Medicaid, Medicare and Public Health insured patients increases, and the relative number of privately insured or self-pay patients declines, this cost shifting becomes less and less viable ( because the $400 overcharge might need to increase to $500 or $600 for the doctor's office to still 'break even' ) .

    Thus to reduce this 'loss' the doctor's office must find other ways to reduce their actual costs of providing the sonogram ... with one obvious way being replacement of a $20 per hour US citizen medical assistant with a $12 per hour H1-B visa foreign medical assistant. This phenomenon also creates pressure on a currently employed $20 per hour US citizen medical assistant NOT to 'quit' her job to have children ... since there is a fair probability that a $12 an hour H1-B visa medical assistant will be hired to replace her. And if the $20 an hour US citizen medical assistant does decide to 'quit' her job and have a child, when the child reaches school age such that she can again seek work as a medical assistant, the future 'going rate' for medical assistant job offers will likely be at the H1-B visa worker based $12 an hour level !

    Also, under current law, food stamp, TANF and other social welfare benefits generally continue to increase with the number of minor children ... up to 3 children. Some states provide further increases in benefit levels beyond 3 children, but many no longer do. Thus it is probably more than just pure coincidence that social welfare benefit recipient US citizen single mom birth rates, as well as legal and illegal immigrant birth rates, all hover near 3 children.

    circling back on topic, this is yet another specific example of the authors' 'theory' in action. And, as the authors' 'theory' implies, 18 years from now the single mom and her three children will probably be casting votes in favor of sustained or increased social welfare benefits via increased income taxes, while the childless $20 an hour US citizen medical assistant will be casting a vote to try and prevent her income tax rate from being increased.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-27-2014 at 12:47 AM.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    That is very true. It also explain when I had insurance or self paid why I was paying more. I changed dentists because of it.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^well at 38,400 a year before taxes...it put her in a middle class bracket... one that is a minority when we are discussing economic classes. If we tax the middle class(up to 160,000 yearly at the moment I believe) than we get a backlash because there are working class people who's lives would be changing for the worse. I think a good solution would probably(if we're still talking bout insurance):
    A)regulate the cost of medical care(i.e. flat rate care for everyone)
    B)tax the 1% (100,000,00 mil+ net worth)who currently hold 90% of the world's riches. Hardly make a dent in their wallets.
    C)provide mandatory universal family planning services{limit # o' kids}
    D)provide tax relief for business(doctors office) with 90% citizen employment.
    F) Verify financial needs in accordance to assets including cars...you can't drive a Bentley or have a mansion (like that lottery winner) and still be in financial need; despite not being liquid(cash) they can still be sold for $$$.




    Just a few a of my ideas that I think would be applicable in the U.S. at least.

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    Post Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^well at 38,400 a year before taxes...it put her in a middle class bracket... one that is a minority when we are discussing economic classes. If we tax the middle class(up to 160,000 yearly at the moment I believe) than we get a backlash because there are working class people who's lives would be changing for the worse. I think a good solution would probably(if we're still talking bout insurance):


    A)regulate the cost of medical care(i.e. flat rate care for everyone)
    B)tax the 1% (100,000,00 mil+ net worth)who currently hold 90% of the world's riches. Hardly make a dent in their wallets.
    C)provide mandatory universal family planning services{limit # o' kids}
    D)provide tax relief for business(doctors office) with 90% citizen employment.
    F) Verify financial needs in accordance to assets including cars...you can't drive a Bentley or have a mansion (like that lottery winner) and still be in financial need; despite not being liquid(cash) they can still be sold for $$$.




    Just a few a of my ideas that I think would be applicable in the U.S. at least.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    ^^^ you're getting into areas of discussion which are 'political' rather than factual.

    All I can safely say in the way of a strictly factual response is that, where the 1% earners are concerned, expatriations are now at record levels. Same is true of high earning, high tax rate US corporations ( see today's news blurbs about the Burger King 'inversion' takeover of Canadian company Tim Hortons ). The point of course is that imposing high tax rates on 'rich' US citizens and corporations is already resulting in some of those 'rich' citizens and corporations no longer remaining in the US ... and as such, putting themselves beyond the reach of the IRS. This obviously defeats the purpose of US tax increases on those 'rich' citizens and corporations since US tax revenues collected from expat American citizens and 'inverted' former US corporations will be vastly reduced, along with creating other negative 'unintended consequences' to the US economy because they ( and their money ) have 'left the building'.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    The 1% can afford to hire the best lawyers, accountants, and other people to make their taxes as low as possible. The only way you can be part of the 1% is if you own a business or inherited the money. Inherited money cannot be taxed because its already yours. So unless you're doing some heavy investing or something, you are a business owner if you're part of the 1%.

    So the only other stupid shit that can be done is to pose additional taxes on business owners and the self-employed, and that fucks over sexworkers.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Although the 1% is 97% inherited riches and 3% self made...being a business owner doesn't mean you're in the 1% or are one of the few who are worth enough to be considered 1%. Even if you made a million a year (average life expectancy being 75 for females) you would still only have 75,000,000......25,000,000 short of being one percent.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    the only other stupid shit that can be done is to pose additional taxes on business owners and the self-employed, and that fucks over sexworkers.
    Again not wanting to stray off topic, but you actually understate this point. Dancers, camgirls, escorts etc. wind up being 'fucked twice' in this scenario. The first is via the fact that business owners and other high earners have less money left to spend on lap dances, paid webcam, escort bookings etc. thus directly reducing sex worker income. The second is that a higher effective tax rate would be applied to the income which sex workers are still able to earn.

    Similarly, rich Americans who choose not to leave the country to escape increased taxation have a number of other options available to avoid an increase their actual effective tax rates ... among these are triple tax free municipal bonds, tax favored investments in 'green energy' partnerships, and a host of other alternatives that 'average' Americans can't afford to get involved in directly.

    Again, can we please try to stay away from 'political' issues such as theoretical future tax policy ...

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Oh forgot to mention even inheritance is taxed...at least in the U.S.
    Although you can receive 5,000,000(each) with out tax from any person who leaves you inheritance, but after 5 mil it's a 15% tax rate.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow X View Post
    Although the 1% is 97% inherited riches and 3% self made...being a business owner doesn't mean you're in the 1% or are one of the few who are worth enough to be considered 1%. Even if you made a million a year (average life expectancy being 75 for females) you would still only have 75,000,000......25,000,000 short of being one percent.
    What? I never said you are part of the 1% if you're a business owner. I just said if you didn't inherit the money or get it through investing, the only way you can possibly earn millions per year (needed in order to be apart of the 1%) is by being a business owner. If you work for someone else, you won't be making that kind of money.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Again not wanting to stray off topic, but you actually understate this point. Dancers, camgirls, escorts etc. wind up being 'fucked twice' in this scenario. The first is via the fact that business owners and other high earners have less money left to spend on lap dances, paid webcam, escort bookings etc. thus directly reducing sex worker income. The second is that a higher effective tax rate would be applied to the income which sex workers are still able to earn.
    Exactly




    Rich are getting richer, poor are getting poor (well, middle class is the new poor due to debt). Definitely a big impact on IQ for sure.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Quote Originally Posted by GlamourRouge View Post
    Rich are getting richer, poor are getting poor (well, middle class is the new poor due to debt). Definitely a big impact on IQ for sure.

    ... which very conveniently brings us back to the central topic, because this is yet another aspect of the authors' 'theory'. Middle class Americans are now having fewer children because they cannot afford the costs of raising children while at the same time being able to afford to make student loan payments, mortgage debt payments, car lease payments, paying higher prices for 'necessary' items like food, energy, health care etc.

    On the 'flip side', social welfare benefit recipient single mothers, and immigrants with US citizen children, don't share these concerns because ... in lots of cases ... there isn't any student debt ( thus there isn't any college education either ), and 'someone else' is paying for at least part of their rent, food, utility bills, and health care. And, as mentioned earlier, the more children they have ( up to 3 anyhow ) the more 'someone else' pays.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-27-2014 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... which very conveniently brings us back to the central topic, because this is yet another aspect of the authors' 'theory'. Middle class Americans are now having fewer children because they cannot afford the costs of raising children while at the same time being able to afford to make student loan payments, mortgage debt payments, car lease payments, paying higher prices for 'necessary' items like food, energy, health care etc.

    On the 'flip side', social welfare benefit recipient single mothers, and immigrants with US citizen children, don't share these concerns because ... in lots of cases ... there isn't any student debt ( thus there isn't any college education either ), and 'someone else' is paying for at least part of their rent, food, utility bills, and health care. And, as mentioned earlier, the more children they have ( up to 3 anyhow ) the more 'someone else' pays.
    According to this study, 13 percent of children are born poor.

    http://www.urban.org/publications/901356.html

    That's pretty close to the percentage of Americans who are poor, so poor people are having children at about the same rate as the rest of the country.

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    idk what welfare is like in other states, but in mine its certainly nothing to write home about. if you want housing, you best get on a fucking FIVE TO TEN YEAR waiting list. you don't just show up and say "boohoo i'm poor help me" and they hand you a free apt. lmao. food stamps are extremely hard to be eligible for unless you are unemployed. tanf ( cash benefits) you can only get up to 5 years, and its only enough to buy diapers, formula, and possibly gas. for one child you may get 2 or 3 hundred BUT you must log 20 hours a week of job searching, and yes you have to prove this. welfare isn't what it was in the 80s where you could just live off of it. my friend just got a job making 14 or 15 bucks an hour, and she has been completely cut off from all forms of assistance. making 14 an hour, you are still in poverty.
    once again this has turned into some bullshit welfare debate, and its unfortunate..i thought this was going to be an intelligent thread

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    Default Re: IQ scores are Decreasing in Western Countries

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    making 14 an hour, you are still in poverty.
    maybe with a kid, but I lived off 15/hr for about a year, for a position that required a bachelor degree (and the school loans to go with it). and this was not in a cheap area, all I could afford for housing was to rent a room in a house, not a real apartment. this is actually when I started moonlighting at clubs.

    do agree that the value of welfare programs is overstated. but as someone from the outside sometimes it is hard not to get frustrated.
    "There are different kinds of darkness. There is darkness that frightens, the darkness that soothes, the darkness that is restful. There is the darkness of lovers, and the darkness of assassins. It becomes what the bearer wishes it to be, needs it to be. It is not wholly bad or good."
    - The Court of Mist and Fury

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