Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 43 of 43

Thread: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

  1. #26
    Veteran Member SkyeSabrina's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2013
    Location
    BFE
    Posts
    459
    Thanks
    4,779
    Thanked 750 Times in 257 Posts
    My Mood
    Psychedelic

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/b...heyre-rapists/
    Found this and thought it was pretty relevant.
    And what causes rape is rapists. If there isn't a verbal, sober, enthusiastic consent the FIRST time you ask, that means no. If she doesn't answer back, it means no. If she is asleep, it means no. If you have to push at all, it means no.
    I'm in a long term relationship and we went through a period of about nine months where we were both celibate due to health problems on my part. And you know what my SO did? He respected that I didn't want to have sex. He respected my no. He supported me and stuck around.
    That's what real nice guys do. They respect your decisions about your body, whatever they may be. And they respect you as a person and your boundaries, no matter what you decide.
    Last edited by SkyeSabrina; 09-12-2014 at 02:58 PM.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SkyeSabrina For This Useful Post:


  3. #27
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    170
    Thanks
    44
    Thanked 140 Times in 72 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    There is no such thing as an accidental rapist. You're either a rapist or you're not. If the woman says no but stays the night it doesn't give you the right to force sex.
    Here is the scenario I am thinking of. Guy has girl over, they are making out, things are getting hot and start moving to sex. Girl says no, guy assumes it is token resistance. He backs off some, and goes for it again, she says no. And so on until she gives in for whatever reason. The next day she is overcome with regret/remorse and feels violated. That is Date Rape in one of its many forms, probably the most common form. The guy may not know and may never know unless she presses charges that she feels that way. Re-read the article, this is almost certainly the kind of Rape the author is referring to and not the violent or drugged kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    That attitude reminds me of a few guys I went out with one time. They tried to get sex from me, I said no then they claimed I was leading them on. What I did apparently was accept a date and in their twisted minds it meant sex. They didn't rape me but I made sure I never went out with them again.
    Going to have to call you out here. Guys don't go on dates to be friends with girls, ever. You know that. Heterosexual guys anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    This whole idea that a woman dumps a "nice guy" is bullshit. I don't know any woman who dumps a guy for being nice. She either dumps him because he's an asshole but thinks he's a nice guy or other reasons like she doesn't see a future. Also, when guys talk about the friend zone it usually means in my experience that the guy is trying to date above his league, the woman has no interest but he thinks if he's nice she'll give him a chance. Sometimes it happens, other times no. If a guy is friends with a woman hoping this will happen is really delusional.
    Well, we all wish this were true but it just isn't. You might be right on the Friend Zone issue for last least for yourself and some others, maybe the guys never had a shot. On the other hand it isn't fiction that failing to make a move will lead you straight to the Friend Zone when she is ready for sex (I've met just a hand full of women who verbalized it during make out sessions) with many women as well. Women in general do not prefer to initiate, simple as that. I am not sure what you are saying in your last sentence, so not to put words in your mouth. Yes, trying to win your way into a woman's bed from the friend angle is a slimeball move and doesn't work, at best some kind of short lived rebound/sympathy thing on top of being far from genuine. I am generally wary of the male friend of a girl I'm dating that isn't dating and hasn't dated anyone in a while for this very reason.

  4. #28
    God/dess simone87's Avatar
    Joined
    Feb 2012
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    5,171
    Thanks
    7,361
    Thanked 9,469 Times in 3,228 Posts
    My Mood
    Cheeky

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    if a girl says "NO" it means no, and the reason she's saying no is not up for debate, its not something that needs to be sifted through or analyzed..whatever her reasons, why is it so hard just to respect that. if you don't, then yeah you are a rapist. she told you NO, you heard it, no accident

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to simone87 For This Useful Post:


  6. #29
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    170
    Thanks
    44
    Thanked 140 Times in 72 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Some reading on this, the PDF version requires a login but the text abstract does not.

    http://psp.sagepub.com/content/21/3/226.short

  7. #30
    Banned
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    11,037
    Thanks
    1,891
    Thanked 5,124 Times in 3,086 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by invibe View Post
    Here is the scenario I am thinking of. Guy has girl over, they are making out, things are getting hot and start moving to sex. Girl says no, guy assumes it is token resistance. He backs off some, and goes for it again, she says no. And so on until she gives in for whatever reason. The next day she is overcome with regret/remorse and feels violated. That is Date Rape in one of its many forms, probably the most common form. The guy may not know and may never know unless she presses charges that she feels that way. Re-read the article, this is almost certainly the kind of Rape the author is referring to and not the violent or drugged kind.
    Simply put if she says no then it's rape but if she relents and says yes then it's not BUT this can be tricky because while it's not rape if she gives in she may feel remorse and feel like she was pushed into it because he refused to back down. Btw most rape is date rape, very few women are raped by strangers.


    Quote Originally Posted by invibe View Post
    Going to have to call you out here. Guys don't go on dates to be friends with girls, ever. You know that. Heterosexual guys anyway.
    I disagree. I think men and women can be friends. I do have a situation like this in my life where I get together with a male friend but yes I am attracted to him. The question is he attracted to me? I think so but the timing hasn't been right (or he's just not into me). He is straight but a lot of family issues so who knows. Even if nothing comes of it we are still friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by invibe View Post
    Well, we all wish this were true but it just isn't. You might be right on the Friend Zone issue for last least for yourself and some others, maybe the guys never had a shot. On the other hand it isn't fiction that failing to make a move will lead you straight to the Friend Zone when she is ready for sex (I've met just a hand full of women who verbalized it during make out sessions) with many women as well. Women in general do not prefer to initiate, simple as that. I am not sure what you are saying in your last sentence, so not to put words in your mouth. Yes, trying to win your way into a woman's bed from the friend angle is a slimeball move and doesn't work, at best some kind of short lived rebound/sympathy thing on top of being far from genuine. I am generally wary of the male friend of a girl I'm dating that isn't dating and hasn't dated anyone in a while for this very reason.
    I've had strictly platonic male friends. Some were gay so dating them was never an issue (and sidenote: gay male friends are the absolute best because you can talk about men and know you aren't going for the same ones). For the straight ones yes most were interested in me but I was honest and told them we would never be more. Some eventually dumped meas a friend. I had other male friends who we both knew could never be more (in one case, too religious, in others they had kids, etc). I have several male friends but most are married and am usually friends with their wives too. My friend that I like doesn't have a wife or a girlfriend. He likes me, I like him and our families like each other too. It could be a platonic friendship but it does have some romantic undertones (like he constantly holds my hand when we are together and approaches me first at events).

  8. #31
    Senior Member DDuckworth's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    94
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 63 Times in 29 Posts
    My Mood
    Yeehaw

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by SnuffleUffleGrass View Post
    THIS!!!!!!!!

    & I personally feel many men cannot deal with the modern Westernized world as it is now (where women have almost equal rights to men.) They just cannot deal with feeling marginalized (whether they are or not.)

    edit to add- keep in minde waayyy back in the day (like your grandmother's day) women who were raped by suitors never said anything b/c the social consequences were too dangerous (at best she would be viewed as "damaged goods" and at worst labeled a whore who was trying to backpedal out of "making" the man attack her.) This is also how "Shotgun Weddings" happened...to protect the woman's honor, the rapist became a husband.
    Maybe there is a large group of men that feel this way, but there is no need to generalize.

    I am definitely NOT happy with the way the modern westernized world is now, and the sole reason is BECAUSE women do not yet have full equal rights to men. It really pisses me off, I feel like we are living in the 80's every time a woman is discriminated against.

    www.BabesForBitcoin.com - Sell videos and photos for cash, bitcoin, or both! 65% commission and up!

  9. #32
    Featured Member Tourdefranzia's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    1,445
    Thanks
    649
    Thanked 3,393 Times in 970 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by invibe View Post
    There has to be a better way to teach boys than anything this article is suggesting.

    The problem with No means No, is that in reality enough women play the "I'm not a slut card" on auto-pilot even while wanting to sleep with their date to give the "No means Yes" cliche some credit. This is so well known and so common that their are initialisms for it. What a refreshing world it would be if women actually said what they mean and mean what they say in the world of sex and relationships.

    I am willing to bet you can find a 20:1 ratio of guys who have had this experience. Girl is at guys place - guy makes a move - she says no - guy backs off - she doesn't leave, she stays the night or at least very late chatting guy up - then dumps him for being "too nice". Alternatively she makes the guy one of her "friends" because he is a beta male but great to talk to, i.e. not a candidate for a sexual relationship. Again, so common there is a term for it.

    So I just don't think most of what I hear on rape prevention is practical, or realistic about either female sexuality, and especially not realistic about how women behave when being chased by men including ones they are attracted to. There has to be a better message that doesn't confuse people even more by pretending that some alternate reality exists where women don't expect to be chased and love sex more than men, and guys aren't ultimately looking for regular sex first and a companion second as the end game to all this dating stuff.

    If I were leading some kind of crusade to teach boys how to not be accidental rapists I would start by teaching them a little about how to make a move, and when in doubt just let it go. A girl who can't stop playing games isn't worth a rape charge and a girl who can't help a guy out a little by reciprocating enough to show interest deserves to be a little frustrated when guys don't get it and give up. I don't really know what I would tell my girls if I was a father. Maybe it would be kind of the flip side to what I would tell boys. Either help the guy out a little if it is really what you want, or be firm, don't mince words and get out of there.

    Long, controversial I am sure but by two cents anyway.
    All you have to do is use your words. If you make a pass and she says no, then you say goodnight and end the evening. This whole hanging around bullshit is just that. Walk her to the door, tell her you had a nice time and kick her ass to the curb.

    That kind of self confidence is sexy. Allowing her to linger in the hopes that she will maybe change her mind later is pathetic. The pass is an ultimatum. Any man who makes a pass and is roundly rejected shouldn't just wait it out and hope for pity sex. Leave the offer on the table, but take her home. Maybe you'll get lucky on the next date (that is, if you like her enough to try again).

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tourdefranzia For This Useful Post:


  11. #33
    Veteran Member azaleanola's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    720
    Thanks
    865
    Thanked 654 Times in 292 Posts
    My Mood
    Tired

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Someone acknowledges that rape exists, so a guy has to jump in to defend rapists. What a fucking surprise.

  12. #34
    Senior Member DDuckworth's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    94
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 63 Times in 29 Posts
    My Mood
    Yeehaw

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    if a girl says "NO" it means no, and the reason she's saying no is not up for debate, its not something that needs to be sifted through or analyzed..whatever her reasons, why is it so hard just to respect that. if you don't, then yeah you are a rapist. she told you NO, you heard it, no accident
    I'd just like to take a moment in light of some recent events i've come into contact with. If a girl OR a guy says no, it means no. Males can be raped too, yes I mean by females. I think we would see a lot more cases of rape by females come to light if there wasn't such a shaming aspect to it.

    www.BabesForBitcoin.com - Sell videos and photos for cash, bitcoin, or both! 65% commission and up!

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DDuckworth For This Useful Post:


  14. #35
    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    16,343
    Thanks
    1,395
    Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,768 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    I have never understood the guys that keep pushing when a girl says 'No', but there are a lot of them out there it seems.

    I agree that the use of the term 'accidental rapist' was really not wise, but we don't need to assume Invibe is a rapist himself or that he espouses any kind of rape because he made the (admittedly big) mistake of using it.


    I have known many people who were involved in 'date rape' scenarios. Almost always both parties were under the influence, and that tends to cloud things up a great deal.

    My second SO told me about a guy she thought more or less raped her before we met. But then it turns out she 'finally gave in because he just wouldn't take no for an answer'. I knew the guy also, he was serious player, very good looking, and very much used to getting what he wanted out of women. They were both drunk, he kept pushing, she gave in. What the hell was it then? She was pretty hurt when I told her I didn't think it was rape, though the guy was of course an asshole.

    Had a roommate who was a serious player; a very, very aggressive alpha male type. Very, very successful with women in the fucked up arena Daytona Beach offers to men & women alike. He was after one half of a lesbian couple and they both sucked up to him in a truly disgusting fashion. Which was weird, but everyone else played along with his uberstud image, so not entirely surprising. They also loved talking abut rough sex. Eventually he wound up getting her alone, they were both really intoxicated, and she claimed rape later. Rough rape, like he choked her in the process. In that case I believed her more than I believed him, when he claimed 'she loved it' & only changed her mind when she had to tell her lover the next day. Though if she'd been smart she would have stayed away from him altogether--which of course DOES NOT ABSOLVE him if he indeed actually raped her.

    The incidence of 'Date Rape' is indeed very high. And almost always both parties are intoxicated. Personally, I believe 'No means NO.' and it should always mean no regardless of all other consequences.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

  15. #36
    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    16,343
    Thanks
    1,395
    Thanked 5,487 Times in 2,768 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    As far as the article goes, 'playing hard to get' makes about as much sense as the PUA shit, and is directly related to it. The more honest people are with each other, the better off we would all be.

    I remember when that book for women playing hard to get came out--'The Rules' I think it was called. The PUA guys just love these types because they are equally shallow. But it's really hard to break out of these ridiculous human mating games, it seems.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Djoser For This Useful Post:


  17. #37
    Banned
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    11,037
    Thanks
    1,891
    Thanked 5,124 Times in 3,086 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Ugh, I HATE the Rules. I couldn't begin to mention all of the people who claimed it worked. Yeah right, that's why one of the women divorced. In general I hate most of the self help books except for the Why Men Like Bitches, but that one had a lot of things about not allowing yourself to be a doormat. In general people who take advice from books are idiots. I've never played games. I'm too much to the point and don't see a reason to do so. It's why I generally tell a guy if I'm interested or am not.

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    170
    Thanks
    44
    Thanked 140 Times in 72 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Poor phrasing to use the term accidental in this case. The book "The Rules" seems like a mostly pointless book since conventional wisdom almost the world over is to play hard to get.

    For the data miners and post skimmers, quote from the article.

    “When he calls, tell him you’re busy even if you’re not. Make him work for it.”

    By far, the most popular relationship advice I never take.

    “Don’t say ‘I love you’ first. Keep him guessing or you’ll come on too strong.”

    Yup. I’ve done this zero times in my life.

    “If you sleep with him tonight, he might think you’re a slut. Always leave him wanting more.”

    In other words, good girls, say “No” even when you want to say “Yes”. He’ll get the idea.

    The Dating Game. The Chase. Playing Hard To Get. All my life, I’ve been told that the best way to win a man’s Yes is to tell him No. Popular wisdom warns that a woman who veers from these guidelines is sure to meet a lonely doom, remembered only as “that desperate, clingy psycho who has sex on the first date.” And I’ll admit, in my loneliest moments, I’ve often wondered if my failure to follow the fold–bat my eyelashes, bow my head, and beat around the bush–was responsible for my solitude. But aloof never looked good on me. And, more importantly, it felt wrong–dishonest, inauthentic, manipulative. So I kept answering calls, saying ‘I love you’ when I damn well felt like it, and sleeping with men when I wanted to, without the whole ‘Oh my goodness! I never do this!’ apology.

    Despite my adherence to the honesty policy, the dudes I dated still had trouble discerning my Nos from my Come On, Convince Mes. And the lines they crossed in theirs quests for Yes were darker because of it. When I turned to my friends, they repeated back the same advice as before, only slightly scrambled: “Well, what did you do to make him think you wanted it?”

    And here’s why The Dating Game, The Chase, and Playing Hard To Get are all candy-coated pills of the same toxic poison: rape.
    I read her point as "The Chase" creating the problem where the guy may continue to believe that No is still part of the game. Plenty of "dating material" for men refer to this by various names as something to break through. To further confuse the issue many women engage in token reistance (said no but wanted to have sex), as an indirect assurance that they are nice girls that don't do this kind of thing with just anyone. She has a great point.

    The unfortunate side effect of this poison is the implication that consent can exist between two people even when one says otherwise. This idea is the fount of victim-blaming and the seed from which Todd Akin grows his thought crop. When we structure romantic relationships so that one party is considered a prize of conquest, won only by someone strong enough to fight past objections and overcome enough Nos to reach the Holy Grail of Yes, how can we expect that this blurred view of consent won’t bleed into our sexual relationships, as well? If No means Maybe, I don’t know, I mean… at a bar, in a text, or on a date, when does it starting meaning No again?
    This plays out all over the world every night, because it is the norm in almost every society that dates. Girls are raised to be chased, won, by a deserving guy who tries hard enough.

    She later says...
    When we send the message that resistance is a form of flirtation—a strategic move in the game of love—we romanticize the imposition of one human being’s will on another. The building block of violence. By looking at love and sex as a game, a chase, a fight, we give violence our social permission, cultivate a rape culture, and throw consent out with the bathwater. If, as Rhiannon says “I don’t know means No. I’m drunk means No. Maybe means No. I don’t seem into it means No,” then that should apply to every aspect of the dating experience. Hard To Get and No Means No don’t—can’t—exist together. One lives in a world of conquest and the other of communication. And if you say No when you mean Yes or infer Yes from another person’s No, I’d say you’re not really communicating.
    No means No and token resistance can't exist together because it keeps the game going. No means No doesn't work if it ever means maybe, convince me, I'm not easy but want to have sex so keep getting me horny, or anything other than No.

    Guys need to be taught where the gray line of rape exists and because it is usually not how it is depicted in movies. No means No, but there is more that would need to be done here to educate young men. A crystal clear definiton of date rape is a start.

    Changing the use of the word No, to not be part of the chase is the role of women. Men don't play any direct part in a woman's social development. Whatever indirect part we play is passed on by women interpreting success with men and sharing that.

    If you took anything about me being a rapist or describing rapes I was condoning or involved in, or defending men who rape, you just plain can't read.
    Last edited by invibe; 09-08-2014 at 01:23 AM.

  19. #39
    Banned Euellgigi's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2014
    Location
    US
    Posts
    32
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by DDuckworth View Post
    All I want to say is all of the times I've ever slept with a girl on the first date, I've never lost any respect for her...she wants it, so do I - seems to me we are on equal ground, if she's dirty then I'm dirty, who cares.
    Amen! Amen! Amen!

  20. #40
    Veteran Member BlondebombGA's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    513
    Thanks
    1,005
    Thanked 880 Times in 262 Posts
    My Mood
    Yeehaw

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by Airrrie2 View Post
    I have to respond to this separately. What you are describing here is called dating. A woman is at your place because she likes you. The two of you are establishing trust and a relationship. If she stays the night it's because she is still interested. If she's not ready to sleep with you its because... she's not ready to sleep with you. No ulterior motives there! You are translating your personal sense of entitlement into a meaning that is not at all related to her behavior.
    THIS THIS THIS THIS THIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSS! You really encapsulated the modern issue of intimacy not having to equate to sex perfectly here.


  21. #41
    Banned
    Joined
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    11,037
    Thanks
    1,891
    Thanked 5,124 Times in 3,086 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by BlondebombGA View Post
    THIS THIS THIS THIS THIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSS! You really encapsulated the modern issue of intimacy not having to equate to sex perfectly here.
    I'll be honest and this whole idea of sex is really disturbing. I don't mean sex obviously or sex in a relationship, I'm talking how people expect sex right away, sometimes on a first date even if you never met before. It's so common that there is a thing called the 3 date rule some guys have. Call me old fashioned but I don't want to sleep with a man until we have an actual relationship where we love each and are together.
    Last edited by Kellydancer; 09-12-2014 at 04:52 PM. Reason: It's met, not left, duh.

  22. #42
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    May 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    598
    Thanks
    409
    Thanked 259 Times in 136 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Quote Originally Posted by Trem View Post
    A million times this. If you go out of your way to attract guys who "like the chase" what do you think is going to happen once the chase is over?
    I'm going to post that quote on my facebook page tomorrow. Thanks. I'm suffering from a guy who refuses to date me because we just tumbled into bed together and he didn't have to chase me - that is totally the way i see it - what happens when the chase is over? Do you get bored and move to chase someone else? Do you expect me to play silly games forever to 'keep you on your toes' - that's not a relationship, that's torture!

  23. #43
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    291
    Thanks
    193
    Thanked 359 Times in 174 Posts

    Default Re: A darker look at 'playing hard to get'

    Men of the rapist persuasion will use any excuse to blame the victim rather than take full responsibility for their vile actions!

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. clubs that have bed dancing and/or playing pornos playing in lap dance area
    By bubblegumbitch in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-01-2013, 09:57 PM
  2. The darker side of Barbie
    By smeca in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-04-2012, 04:54 PM
  3. I think I want to go darker
    By lolagetz in forum Body Business
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-18-2008, 03:41 PM
  4. Darker skintone *down there*
    By pink_staR in forum Body Business
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-16-2005, 04:21 PM
  5. Tanning, how to get darker?
    By Vyanka in forum Body Business
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 09-20-2004, 06:32 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •