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    Default "Carry That Weight"

    This very bright young woman was targeted by a serial rapist who was never prosecuted and still attends the same college.
    http://columbiaspectator.com/multime...ce-art-protest

    I am unable to find a blog or any way to follow her story. I'd like to follow her to see if there's a resolution, if any. This story brings me back to the 1980's when I was in college and in the police department with a friend of mine. The police officer (a female no less) literally laughed and told us it was not a police issue and told us since it happened on campus it was an issue for the school. The school refused to acknowledge it. I remember hearing countless stories that played out the same way. How is a violent crime not a police issue?

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    The issue of alleged rapes on college campi has drawn lots of attention lately ... see


    and a similar recent incident provides official answers to your questions ... from

    (snip)"LEXIE BRACKENRIDGE: In October of 2012 I was sexually assault by a member of the men's hockey team on campus at Williams.

    THYS: Lexie Brackenridge won't discuss details of what happened when she went to the student's room because she says she does not want to revictimize herself. The next day, her mother took Lexie home. She received medical attention. Her parents consulted an attorney. He advised against pressing charges, warning them that a trial could take two years and take their daughter out of college.

    After a couple of weeks, Lexie returned to Williams. She met with two deans who she says persuaded her file a complaint in the college's disciplinary system.

    BRACKENRIDGE: And they encouraged me that it would be very confidential. And the direct quote from the dean of the college, she said that, "we want him off campus by tomorrow."

    THYS: Lexie filed a complaint. The dean of the college investigated. But Lexie was frustrated that she was not able to read what witnesses had said. She was also frustrated with the number of witnesses, 30 she says. Word got out that she was accusing a popular hockey player of raping her. And students, even some she had thought were her friends, started to turn against her.

    Sarah Bolton, the dean who investigated the complaint, acknowledges maintaining confidentially during a thorough investigation is difficult.

    SARAH BOLTON: Often, the students know one another really well. They're parts of the same social circles. And in a small community, the social pressures that build around that, and the ways that that pushes against reporting are things that we're really concerned with.

    THYS: No one at Williams College will comment on this case with this exception. Last night, President Adam Falk posted a statement on the Williams website. In it, he says, we're confident that throughout our handling of the case in question, we adhered to all of our policies and to all applicable laws including our policies on the provision of housing for the survivor.

    The school investigated. There was an appeal. Eventually, Lexie was told the hockey player would be suspended for three semesters. She asked why he wasn't being expelled.

    BRACKENRIDGE: As they said, an expulsion would ruin their life and they weren't looking to do that,
    never mind the fact that my life had openly been ruined by this man.

    BRACKENRIDGE: WBUR is not naming the alleged assailant because no criminal charges have been filed. I exchanged messages on Facebook with him. I told him I wanted to interview him about his return to Williams in the fall. He asked me to tell him more, and what I would like the interview to be."(snip)


    Please understand that I am in no way trying to minimize the 'damages' experienced by actual rape victims. However, in this case, the alleged rape victim elected NOT to make an official police report nor to bring official criminal charges against the alleged rapist. Instead, she elected to utilize the college's disciplinary system. The girl in the OP's news blurb did attempt to make an official complaint after being unsuccessful with the college's disciplinary system ... but to date the DA has taken no action. Thus, so far, nobody has actually raised a 'criminal' issue ... thus no 'crime' exists.

    The likely more important 'new' legal fact is that, as the arguable result of the highly publicized Duke LaCross case, the Dominic Strauss Khan case, etc. - courts have now ruled that the mere leveling of official criminal charges against an accused rapist can cause 'irreversible damage' to the accused. As such, both the accuser, and any 'official bodies' who facilitate bogus charges being leveled against an alleged rapist, can now potentially be held responsible for the 'irreversible damage'. When those 'irreversible damages' amount to the loss of, say, $25,000 per year of potential income over a 40 year working career, a $1 million dollar 'damages' lawsuit could be involved. And no college dean, local DA's office, minor student's parents etc. wants to put themselves 'on the hook' for $1 million civil suit in the event that the accusations are either bogus or 'un-provable' !!!

    Essentially, the college took the alleged rape victim's claims under consideration, investigated via interviewing some 30 fellow students with some knowledge of the 'incident', and apparently decided that there was insufficient 'hard' evidence to indicate that the alleged rape incident was in fact a case of rape based on a 'preponderance of evidence'. The college was willing to suspend the alleged rapist for several semesters ... probably the result of a confidential settlement agreement. The college was NOT willing to expel the alleged rapist, because doing so would have exposed the college to a potential 'damage recovery' lawsuit.

    In both of the above cases, the alleged rape victims had the option of making an official police report thus filing official charges. The girl in the OP's news story chose to do so ( with no action taken by the DA's office to date ), while the girl in my news story did not. Unless the local DA decides to throw out the charges altogether based on lack of 'hard' evidence, bringing official rape charges would set in motion 'irreversible damages' against the accused rapist as soon as an arrest is made. At trial, the alleged rape victim's identity will no longer be kept a complete secret. She will probably be subjected to a barrage of questions about her entire sexual history, her history of alcohol and/or drug use, etc. as the defense attempts to paint a picture for the jury that the accuser was a 'willing participant' who later changed her mind. And in the absence of 'hard' evidence, i.e. a security tape, 3rd party corroborating witnesses, etc. the defendant is likely to be found innocent on the basis of 'reasonable doubt'. However, once an arrest has been made and official charges leveled, from that point forward, if the crime of rape cannot be proven in a court of law, both the city ( via the DA's office ) and the alleged rape victim ( or her parents if she's their dependent ) become targets for a potential $1 million civil lawsuit for 'damage recovery'.

    Again I'm not taking any particular position that post-Duke Lacrosse case court rulings are a positive or negative development. Some pundits claim that it is a second direct 'assault' on rape victims. Other pundits claim that it is a welcome change because it now provides for accused rapists to be truly treated as 'innocent until proven guilty'. The court rulings are what they are. For a fact, the bogus charges brought against the Duke Lacrosse players 'cost' each of them ~$1 million in reduced earnings potential because the existence of the rape charge permanently limited their future career options. And the 'costs' to Dominic Strauss Khan are incalculable ( starting with the loss of his $500k per year job as head of the International Monetary Fund ! ) The awareness of new mechanisms for damage recovery is consistent with the college dean's comments explaining that expelling the alleged rapist would 'ruin his life'.

    Bottom line is that the recent lawsuits and court rulings officially recognize the 'irreversible damage' potential stemming from the initial leveling of rape charges, and now provide a legal means for those so charged to recover said 'irreversible damages' via civil suit should the charges fail to be proven. The real world effect has been for 'authorities' to now require far more than mere 'she said, he said' statements to proceed with official rape charges.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-03-2014 at 02:33 PM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    I'm pleased to say that my old college is now under federal investigation after I and a few other girls reported rape cases in the same month, and they all got turned down by prosecution for a lack of "hard evidence." I know the list of schools being investigated is growing as people become aware at how poorly these things are handled by administration and the university police, but I just hope something actually comes from it.

    The rumor is in my case is that the guy (who had exceedingly wealthy parents and had two weeks to get a lawyer after the report came out before he was found...only found him by chance through one of my "friends") threatened to sue the school and the police department if the case went to trial. While he wouldn't have had much friction at all suing the school, he could have done serious damage suing the police department. I believe it, too, because the evidence that the cops were telling me had a high probability of convicting him became the very evidence that they said made me look consenting. That change happened within the span of 2 days. On top of that, when my alcohol levels were tested the night of the incident, they were tested hours after the incident, so of course my levels changed. The police and doctors told my dad they didn't see the point in using the equation to figure out my alcohol level at the time of the assault (it was still ridiculously high when it was tested) even though my dad, a doctor, was pointing out that that affects the evidence's accuracy. The hospital also, I found out via my parents the other day, did the most rudimentary, basic drug test they could...hence my results coming back negative. My parents found out too late to demand a more thorough test. At the time, they told me I had the signs of being drugged, but of course that'd never hold up in court.

    There was other shit that went into it such as, on their brief list of flimsy reasons not to prosecute the assailant, I could open a door in one of the security tapes, so obviously I was still "functioning of my own will." What. Thankfully, when they were searching for the guy because I couldn't remember him, the cameras were so bad that when they put out pictures asking people to identify him way at the start of the ordeal (yes, the school was desperately trying to find him at the start because he was a stranger, and that's a more rare case and, in their eyes, more dangerous because he was still out there), students and their parents began complaining about the total lack of security and useless security cameras. It was even a fight to get the semester of tuition refunded since I was too messed up to function at the time. The school said the semester had started (we were 3 days in), so a refund wasn't possible. My parents got a lawyer, and they changed their tune. After my coming forth, I guess other victims decided to try, and three other rape crimes were reported that month alone. Within a year, students began making public displays about how the school handles rape cases. And now, the school is being investigated. It'd honestly been getting built up to an investigation for a long time.

    If I was asked to give a statement against that school, I would do so gladly. In the mean time, the only joy I get is knowing that everyone close to the assailant who heard his side of what happened will always have the seed of doubt in the back of their minds "Did he actually do it?" His reputation is forever marred among those who know, however slightly.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    ^^^ Sorry to hear that your situation was 'farted off' so easily. However, there is a reason this is happening at many colleges these days ... from

    (snip)Campus conduct boards are best suited for handling academic infractions such as cheating or plagiarism. But in 2011, the DOE’s assistant secretary for civil rights, Russlyn Ali, issued a directive warning colleges that failure to aggressively pursue sexual-assault offenders would be considered a Title IX violation punishable by loss of federal funds. As a result of this intervention by the DOE’s office of civil rights (OCR), there are conduct boards composed of English professors, librarians, and math majors across the country determining guilt for what is generally considered the second most serious crime known to man.

    To comply with the new rules of Title IX, universities have been frantically revising their policies. To be sure, many have added valuable resources and programs for victims of sexual assault. But for the most part, universities have responded to new federal guidelines exactly as you would expect — by hiring more bureaucrats to focus exclusively on Title IX compliance. The University of North Carolina has already hired five full-time Title IX coordinators since several students filed complaints, and they intend to hire more. UNC — a university with nearly 30,000 total students — had 21 reported forcible-sex offenses in 2012, according to its latest campus-security report. That comes to only about four cases of sexual misconduct per Title IX officer. (Meanwhile, UNC student activists have taken to protesting Robin Thicke’s “Blurred Lines” at bars and getting DJs fired for perpetuating “rape culture.”) Application of Title IX is complex, but it’s hard to imagine how hiring more college administrators will help solve the problem of campus rape.

    Despite the many resources expended in efforts to comply with Title IX, campus courts have unsurprisingly done a bad job adjudicating rape — not because they’re part of a conspiracy to silence victims or because they don’t take rape seriously, but because they’re charged with an impossible task.

    The result has been a surge of lawsuits from students who allege that their universities mishandled their sexual-assault cases and failed to protect them from gender discrimination. Many schools are being investigated by OCR because of such formal complaints, while others are subject to “proactive” compliance reviews. After a messy Title IX feud erupted last month between OCR and Tufts University, Terry W. Hartle, senior vice president for government and public affairs at the American Council on Education, told Inside Higher Ed, “Many universities that have found themselves in a conflict with the OCR believe that this agency does not act in good faith and that it’s little more than a bully with enforcement powers.”

    But university administrators aren’t the only ones troubled by OCR’s overreach. The DOE instructs colleges to use the lowest possible standard in our legal system — a “preponderance of evidence” — when adjudicating sexual misconduct. Because of the inadequacy of campus courts and lack of procedural safeguards in place to protect students, this has grave consequences for due process."(snip)

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    The reason I want to follow this case, outside of the fact she is carrying her burden with her is because, I remember back in the dark ages when I was in college something similar happened, only it wasn't on campus. A girl lived in an apartment two towns away from campus, was under her own lease and had no affiliation with the school other than the fact she took classes in the mornings. A boy she once dated from a different college she was attending, broke into her home through a kitchen window while she was at work. He was drunk, got tired of waiting for her, and ended up passing out in her bed. When she arrived home in the morning, she didn't pass through the kitchen, but instead went straight upstairs to the bathroom to brush her teeth. When she went to pick up her toothbrush, it wasn't in the holder where she left it. It was wet and laying on the side of her sink. She put it down and started looking around and noticed her answering machine light was blinking and had a high message count but the tape was flipped out of the answering machine. Then she realized he was sleeping in her bed. Since she knew who it was she felt safe enough to approach the bed and wake him up to ask him wtf he was doing there! He assaulted her.

    She left the apartment and went straight to the police who did nothing. They told the girl it was the schools responsibility. The police called the school and the school passed it off as a drunk college kid getting into mischief. No charges were filed. The girl continued to insist she wanted charges filed. The police department refused. That girl was me. That was 1988. Here we are more than 25 years later and police are still refusing to file charges on cases that involve college students and are washing their hands of all crime that has anything even remotely related to a college. WHY!?!

    A violent crime. Colleges are in charge of investigating, trying and punishing perpetrators of violent crime. It made no sense then or now!

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    I really don't want to cause upset here and I normally stay out of these types of discussions, but that article really disturbed me. Through all of the spin, through the multiple accusations of screw ups by the investigator and panelists, through the multiple excuses for why Natalie couldn't help herself more during the investigation, through the thin excuses for why none of them went to the police, and even through all of the other hyperbolic fluff thrown into the article about how these girls purportedly didn't get complete due process, a few things became clear in a hurry.

    First, each side got to tell its story, in full, and he was found not responsible in all but the kissing event. They all got to testify, in person. The accusers didn't even have enough to meet the "preponderance of evidence" standard, which is far lower than what would have been required had they actually tried to get this kid charged with a crime. In Sarah's case, the Dean agreed on top of the Investigator AND the independent panel.

    Second, this was a pile-on. Natalie didn't file until she learned that "Sarah" (who we now know is Emma Sulkowicz) did and Josie filed after she learned of the first two. What was really scary about the Natalie thing is that she filed months after it purportedly occurred, based upon sex that happened while they were in a relationship and sleeping together. Idk, but this sounds a lot like a few girls who simply didn't like the guy in question, including one that might have been mad because he broke up with her and another who might have felt used after inviting him to her bed previously and then again, just to have him take off when he was finished.

    Now in the case of Josie, he made a hamfisted pass. He tried to kiss her and got handsy. Stupid yes, but if he really wanted to keep her in that room I'm betting that he could have. He made a pass, she rebuffed him and ran off.

    And I got this from an article by an author that didn't even pretend to try to scrutinize the facts or present a balanced perspective. I can only imagine what his side of the story looks like.

    Rape is a real problem in this world and cannot be tolerated. But when charges of rape are used to pursue personal agendas rather than to punish clear wrongdoing, it hurts everyone and makes it that much harder to identify true perpetrators.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 09-03-2014 at 04:46 PM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    Sorry, the article I'm talking about is this one:
    http://theblueandwhite.org/2014/02/1...and-equitable/

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    From the WBUR story: "The likely more important 'new' legal fact is that, as the arguable result of the highly publicized Duke LaCross case, the Dominic Strauss Khan case, etc. - courts have now ruled that the mere leveling of official criminal charges against an accused rapist can cause 'irreversible damage' to the accused. As such, both the accuser, and any 'official bodies' who facilitate bogus charges being leveled against an alleged rapist, can now potentially be held responsible for the 'irreversible damage'. When those 'irreversible damages' amount to the loss of, say, $25,000 per year of potential income over a 40 year working career, a $1 million dollar 'damages' lawsuit could be involved. And no college dean, local DA's office, minor student's parents etc. wants to put themselves 'on the hook' for $1 million civil suit in the event that the accusations are either bogus or 'un-provable' !!!"

    Gotta throw the red BS flag on this part of the story. Prosecutors and police enjoy absolute immunity from civil suit for criminal investigations and prosecutions. Anyone who has even the slightest inclination to check that out can find dozens of court cases where the courts have tossed out civil charges against police and prosecutors for that very reason, including the Duke lacrosse case. Further, most states limit the liability of minor's parents from civil judgments. Again, easily verifiable. So that leaves very well endowed colleges potentially on the hook. Duke paid out about $9,000,000 to the three wrongfully accused lacrosse players. Mainly Duke did that because Duke's President and a bunch of faculty members publicly stated the lacrosse players were guilty of unspeakable crimes. And they did so after evidence was building that those lacrosse players were innocent. For example time stamped ATM photos of one of the accused being well away from the scene of the non-crime when it was supposed to be taking place.

    Bottom line, the WBUR piece is full of assumptions that do not prove to be true. Don't believe a word of it.

    Z

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    ^^^ Zofia is of course technically correct. Indeed the main target of potential 'damage recovery' civil suits brought by unconvicted accused rapists is the deep pockets of the College. And while DA's themselves do have immunity from such suits, the cities which employ them may not.

    Ultimately, the main point is that the Duke Lacrosse case, the Dominic Strauss Khan case, and subsequent litigation, has made colleges and city gov'ts aware that there is now a potential risk of expensive 'damage recovery' lawsuits ( as opposed to actual 'damage recovery' lawsuits having been brought ) stemming from the 'new' legal precedent that just the charge of rape causes 'irreparable damages' to the accused ... damages which cannot be 'undone' by those charges later being dismissed or the accused being found innocent in a court of law. As such, college disciplinary boards and DA's offices have become much more 'cautious' in regard to taking actions against an accused rapist based solely on 'he said, she said' evidence. Additionally, college and local 'officials' have become much more 'cautious' in regard to any public statements made regarding alleged rape cases.

    The other coincident 'change' which exacerbates the present situation is that, post Duke, Dep't Of Education directives have essentially channeled college related rape cases away from the US criminal justice system, and into the college's 'disciplinary' system, as a result of title IX. As pointed out above, a major effect has been a lowering of evidential standards from 'reasonable doubt' to 'preponderance of evidence'. Also, another major effect has been to replace a 'jury of one's peers' with a panel of college officials as the decision-making 'body' in regard to whether or not official charges should be brought against the accused.-

    My personal opinion is that the DOE effectively placing college officials in a position of making decisions which could risk their 'employer' being forced to pay out huge sums of money ( as the result of future 'damage recovery' civil suits ) is a clear conflict of interest ... but, hey, I'm just a dumb blonde with big boobs.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-04-2014 at 03:19 AM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    I really don't want to cause upset here and I normally stay out of these types of discussions, but that article really disturbed me. Through all of the spin, through the multiple accusations of screw ups by the investigator and panelists, through the multiple excuses for why Natalie couldn't help herself more during the investigation, through the thin excuses for why none of them went to the police, and even through all of the other hyperbolic fluff thrown into the article about how these girls purportedly didn't get complete due process, a few things became clear in a hurry.

    First, each side got to tell its story, in full, and he was found not responsible in all but the kissing event. They all got to testify, in person. The accusers didn't even have enough to meet the "preponderance of evidence" standard, which is far lower than what would have been required had they actually tried to get this kid charged with a crime. In Sarah's case, the Dean agreed on top of the Investigator AND the independent panel.

    Second, this was a pile-on. Natalie didn't file until she learned that "Sarah" (who we now know is Emma Sulkowicz) did and Josie filed after she learned of the first two. What was really scary about the Natalie thing is that she filed months after it purportedly occurred, based upon sex that happened while they were in a relationship and sleeping together. Idk, but this sounds a lot like a few girls who simply didn't like the guy in question, including one that might have been mad because he broke up with her and another who might have felt used after inviting him to her bed previously and then again, just to have him take off when he was finished.

    Now in the case of Josie, he made a hamfisted pass. He tried to kiss her and got handsy. Stupid yes, but if he really wanted to keep her in that room I'm betting that he could have. He made a pass, she rebuffed him and ran off.

    And I got this from an article by an author that didn't even pretend to try to scrutinize the facts or present a balanced perspective. I can only imagine what his side of the story looks like.

    Rape is a real problem in this world and cannot be tolerated. But when charges of rape are used to pursue personal agendas rather than to punish clear wrongdoing, it hurts everyone and makes it that much harder to identify true perpetrators.
    girls know its unlikely any justice will be served. they dont want to have to repeat their experiences to a group of unsympathetic people. thats traumatizing. im not surprised the other victims remained silent until someone else came forward, and then decided that it might be worth it to go through all of that emotional turmoil in order to get some justice and prevent someone who is clearly a serial rapist from destroying more lives.

    "he tried to kiss her and got handsy" to the point that she had to run off. that is sexual assault. you need consent for every action you do to someone else. this is not normal behavior. this guy is a predator and fuck everyone who is defending him.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    I think that rapists are base scum who should feel the full weight of punishment against them. But there is a reason why due process exists for the accused. And I hate to say it, but thank goodness for it in this case. Honestly, this whole thing just stinks.

    Emma Sulkowicz slept with him twice before and even consented to sex on the night in question. She claims that she revoked consent when he got rough with her and stuck his dick in the wrong hole, but did she present any evidence whatsoever of that? The other girl, Natalie, filed based upon sex she kept having with him for months, over and over.

    In another article now floating out there, Emma admits that the girls collaborated in filing against this guy, many months after the alleged non-consensual acts occurred during the consensual sex.

    This is some Salem witch trial stuff. Seriously. How do we call someone who only got into these girls' beds with consent a "sexual predator?" Was this really a case of sex gone bad, even though both girls went back for it over and over (especially Natalie), or a case of buyers' remorse? Were these two girls simply jilted and getting revenge? I hate to ask these questions, but given the facts, it seems as likely, if not more so, that they are getting revenge, now with a potential civil suit sweetener at the back end. Emma has finally filed a joke of a police complaint against this kid, which has no chance of going anywhere, but is gaining much publicity. I have no doubt that a civil suit against the school is coming soon.

    I have to say that this whole thing is blowing my mind.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 09-04-2014 at 05:45 AM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    you can call him a sexual predator because there wasnt consent. you can rape someone youve consentually slept with before. someone can revoke their consent anytime they wish and if you ignore that, you are a rapist.

    oh how ironic that you are victim blaming two girls and then compare the case to the salem witch trials. hundreds of years later and women are still not granted the same bodily autonomy and due process as men.

    if the official estimate is that approximately 8% of all sexual assault claims are falsified, then why is the default position that the woman is lying or the incident occured in some "grey area?"

    legit question: if you were raped by someone who was in constant close proximity with you and shared many mutual friends, would you hesitate to press charges for the small chance that he is prosecuted even though there is a much larger chance this rapist would become agitated and take revenge?

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    Charlotte, I am not "victim blaming." I am questioning whether they were victims at all. We will never truly know what happened in those rooms, but what we do know is this:

    (1) they willingly had him in their beds when these supposed consent revocations occurred;
    (2) they have no physical evidence whatsoever that they were actually assaulted;
    (3) they both slept with him multiple times and one of them was his GF for over a year, who kept going back for this purported non-consensual sex over and over;
    (4) they did not go to the police, either before filing with the school or once they did;
    (5) they waited many months, one over a year and the other for an entire school year, before complaining;
    (6) the two girls who claimed to be abused collaborated on their stories and filed a week apart from each other; and
    (7) an independent investigator AND an independent panel found him innocent.

    Now you can rationalize, excuse and/or explain away any one of these, but all of them?

    Further, to believe this, you not only have to explain away everything above, but you also have to be willing to believe that Columbia University would willingly shelter a serial rapist on its campus, with all of the potential liability associated with doing so.

    Yes I did compare this to the Salem witch trials, because if you could convict a man for rape based upon these facts and circumstances, then you could convict almost any guy who has had multiple disgruntled sexual partners . Seriously now, if I was a college student today reading stuff like this, I'd be leery of ever having sex with a girl going to the same school. I might even set up a camera in my room in the event that I was ever forced to prove that sex was not rape. This is really scary stuff.

    The sad thing in all of this is that a couple of girls on a college campus can drum up so much press over a claim of consensual sex gone bad, despite all evidence to the contrary, while so many real rape victims, most especially girls in the adult entertainment industry, cannot get anyone to take them seriously. It is a twisted state of affairs.

    Anyway, I've said my piece now and I'll stay out of this any further.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 09-04-2014 at 06:35 AM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    My takeaways from the article Rick linked:

    The guy raped one girl, was fairly abusive to another, and groped a third. He is a piece of shit

    The college reporting system is broken pretty seriously and does not live up to the expectations one would have of such a system

    On the other side of it:

    Two women waited over a year to report anything to any authority figure. The most serious case, was still over 6 months.

    Two of them did not follow through fully on their complaints.


    The fundamental basis of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. I completely understand that many women do not want to report, do not want to deal with the system that is only going to let them down, but in failing to do so immediately, it is quite likely that they are going fail to get any satisfaction from that system.

    Were the college system not screwed up and if it was completely fair it is unlikely that any of these women would get satisfaction through that system simply because of the length of time that passed between the events and their reporting of them.

    The reason for this is that you have taken away the accused persons ability to defend themselves, and that is in our system considered more important than the conviction of every criminal.

    From the personal stories in this thread and others it is apparent that timely reporting of a sexual assault is no guarantee of legal satisfaction, but it is the only hope you have. It appalls me to see in this day and age what I would consider neanderthal behavior by police and prosecutors.

    This is a flawed story , and it worries me that so many of the similar stories have similar flaws, because it allows the deniers and slut shamers to write off the whole business as a bunch of bitter women scorned seeking retribution, where the truth is in your own first person accounts and these are the stories that need to be told and held up as examples of what needs to be fixed.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    The sad thing in all of this is that a couple of girls on a college campus can drum up so much press over a claim of consensual sex gone bad, despite all evidence to the contrary, while so many real rape victims, most especially girls in the adult entertainment industry, cannot get anyone to take them seriously. It is a twisted state of affairs.
    Arguably, this is the real 'tragedy' resulting from the Duke Lacrosse and Dominic Strauss Kahn cases and subsequent court rulings. In the absence of 'hard' evidence ( i.e. security tapes, independent 3rd party witnesses, etc. ), the 'authorities' now view every girl's 'he said, she said' rape accusation with suspicion. Additionally, if the girl has a documentable 'adult' industry background, the 'authorities' arguably now view 'he said, she said' rape accusations with de-facto prejudice based on the plausible defense that the girl with the 'adult' industry background may have been involved in 'pay for play'. Same is probably true for girls who had previous sexual contact with their alleged rapists also being subject to de-facto prejudice, based on the plausible defense that the girl was 'willing' in the past was also 'willing' at the time of the alleged rape, but changed her mind later.

    It is a tragic turn of events that rape prosecutions are now increasingly based on 'ability to actually obtain a conviction' factors, as well as financial risk factors if the decision is made to level charges but a conviction cannot be obtained.


    The fundamental basis of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty
    Well, this is the underlying principle behind the recent court rulings acknowledging that - in today's 'connected' world - a rape charge / arrest, in and of itself, inflicts 'irreparable damage' upon the accused rapist. This now serves to establish a much higher de-facto evidential requirement on the part of the alleged rape victim before the 'authorities' will be willing to move forward with levelling an actual rape charge against the accused. Unfortunately, where the alleged rape victim has an 'adult' industry connection, or has a previous sexual history with the accused, the 'real world' situation is that the probability of a prosecution taking place based on 'he said, she said' evidence now appears to be near zero.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-04-2014 at 07:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Charlotte, I am not "victim blaming." I am questioning whether they were victims at all. We will never truly know what happened in those rooms, but what we do know is this:

    (1) they willingly had him in their beds when these supposed consent revocations occurred;
    (2) they have no physical evidence whatsoever that they were actually assaulted;
    (3) they both slept with him multiple times and one of them was his GF for over a year, who kept going back for this purported non-consensual sex over and over;
    (4) they did not go to the police, either before filing with the school or once they did;
    (5) they waited many months, one over a year and the other for an entire school year, before complaining;
    (6) the two girls who claimed to be abused collaborated on their stories and filed a week apart from each other; and
    (7) an independent investigator AND an independent panel found him innocent.

    Now you can rationalize, excuse and/or explain away any one of these, but all of them?
    The maturity level and decision making skills of college age women/men is a very important factor here. These aren't under educated kids who don't understand the meaning of the word, "no" as it associates to their boundaries. That said, here is my response to you:

    In the college setting (which is a culture all of it's own and based in part on old tradition):

    1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with having someone of the opposite sex in your bed without he intention of having sex. It's called, "petting" and "courtship". It's innocent, and for most an introduction to their sexuality and a part of the bonding process of forming a healthy relationship.

    2) Just because there is no physical evidence, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    3) Just because they have a history together does not mean it didn't happen. Domestic violence between a married couple is a perfect example.

    4) Because it's new and we're learning our personal boundaries, some people don't realize the full magnitude of what happened because sexuality within their relationship is happening at a rate of progression. Often guys (and gals) will pressure their partner to take it further than intended. It's enough to raise anxieties but because the "victim" is in a situation where a bond is being formed, it's easy to confuse innocent surges in hormones and overt aggression.

    5) See #4. The situation made the girls feel uncomfortable, it pushed their limits and in all of the confused feelings they have, they may not know it was wrong until someone who has had the same experience with the young man speaks up. The 2nd young lady then relates her own experiences to the situation and either decides it was an innocent surge of hormones in an acceptable sexual situation or she comes to the realization the reason she felt uncomfortable is because he aggressively bypassed her comfort level to the point where it became an assault.

    6) In this case, collaborated is not what I am thinking, more like, comparing their experiences and making a joint decision on an appropriate course of action.

    7) I don't know if you went to college but there are unwritten rules between colleges and law enforcement. This is a good ole boy deal made years ago between the college board of directors and the police commission. Police will not get involved with on campus crime until the school has first had the opportunity to respond. The school, thinking only of recruitment and reputation will do everything in it's power to keep it quiet. The police will honor the schools decision. It is a VERY RARE case when police will prosecute crimes committed on campus. Usually, they will only become involved if the situation is so overwhelming that they are literally forced to respond.

    I lived in a dorm. I was a little sister at a fraternity. I was very involved with college life. I was very (and still am today) involved with tradition. This is not the hood. This is a place where there is a complete order in which things should happen and a set of rules that applies only to their own, and everyone involved knows exactly what those rules are.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post

    .. but you also have to be willing to believe that Columbia University would willingly shelter a serial rapist on its campus, with all of the potential liability associated with doing so.
    Not just Columbia but the majority of colleges across the country. Colleges will take every possible step possible to squash it before it goes off campus. They will outwit, outsmart and out do any young individual who lacks experience. Colleges have much more experience at it than do the victims.

    My answer is an unequivocal YES!

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    ^^^ I would acknowledge that the 7 responses, while technically accurate, miss the 'real world' point. And that 'real world' point does NOT involve whether or not a rape actually occurred ... but instead involves whether a charge of rape has a reasonable probability of resulting in a 'conviction' of the accused given the available evidence.

    I would add to that the fact that Title IX has served to shift investigative responsibility ... as well as the initial decision whether or not to level rape charges ... away from regular LE and toward the Colleges.

    Also, as I pointed out earlier, Colleges now have a 'vested interest' in finding some means of not having to level rape charges ... because if the College does level rape charges there is a significant probability the accused will be found innocent and the College subsequently sued.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-04-2014 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Also, as I pointed out earlier, Colleges now have a 'vested interest' in finding some means of not having to level rape charges ... because if the College does level rape charges there is a significant probability the accused will be found innocent and the College subsequently sued.
    On this, we agree. The colleges do have a vested interest in avoiding false charges. They are expensive. As they should be.

    Where we differ is municipalities and states response to rape charges. The police, which are employed by the cities enjoy the same absolute immunity as prosecutors. The cities get the benefit of that defense as well. Where governments are potentially liable is under Section 1983 of the Civil Rights act. The wrongfully accused would have to prove the police violated a well established constitutional principal to prove liability. That's a tough standard. There have been very few successful Section 1983 false charge/arrest/imprisonment verdicts. In North Carolina where we are unfortunately all too familiar with false convictions, there have only been a relative few civil judgments and settlements. So far, the settlements have not been enough to convince the cities and the state to bring the police and prosecutors under control. Although that may be changing, but not fast enough. We keep finding new innocent people to let out of prison after years of incarceration.

    Z

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    ^^^ agreed, and also agreed to a degree at least. Indeed colleges have a 'vested interest' in avoiding bringing false rape charges. However, some would argue that colleges also have a 'vested interest' in not bringing rape charges at all, regardless of whether the charges are true or false. The recent rash of Title IX based investigations unofficially acknowledge this is the case. Whether those Title IX based investigations result in any actual changes remains to be seen.

    Indeed, city / state gov'ts are far more difficult for 'falsely' accused rapists to successfully sue than colleges. Nonetheless, they are increasingly aware of the ( admittedly remote ) possibility. Also, DA's, cops, and even public officials not directly involved in the prosecution are increasingly aware that they must now be extremely careful in regard to any public statements made regarding the case. As such, generally speaking, DA's, cops and city officials are even more willing to let the Colleges deal with on-campus rape accusations.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-04-2014 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    ^^^ It depends. In North Carolina, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has historically been reluctant to handle on campus rape cases through the university disciplinary process. When they have, the results have been somewhat unsatisfactory, leading to the Department of Education investigating UNC-CH. What the new chancellor will do, remains to be seen. She's got a reputation from Dartmouth for being more than willing to pursue false charges to the detriment of all concerned. But, so far she's been quiet. Bigger problems at Carolina.

    At Duke, there is no hesitation what so ever to pursue false rape charges. The more false, the better the administration and faculty seems to like the charges. When they get caught, the administration of Richard Brodhead just hands out money to the falsely accused and then engages in a little gratuitous character assassination after the fact. It's not his money after all. And, as long as the Ivy League doesn't have enough spots for the stupid sons and daughters of all the Wall Street types, Duke will always be able to fill its freshman class. (The smart children of the Wall Street types have no difficulty getting into the Ivies.)

    North Carolina State has followed the UNC line with better results. Generally, NCSU defers to the Raleigh Police and Wake County District Attorney. So far, that has worked well. It should, that's how the system is designed to work.

    As far as DAs not speaking out about cases pending before them, that's the rule. It has been since who knows when, long ago. But, the rule wasn't really enforced until Mike Nifong saw a TV camera and couldn't tell the truth. He got what he deserved. A bunch of other DAs need the same treatment, if you ask me. We just released two more guys from prison who didn't rape some kid but got convicted for it. Turns out the real rapist was wandering free for years. As far as I'm concerned dishonest lawyers who let rapists run free while convicting innocent men deserve a special spot in hell.

    Z

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    The more false, the better the administration and faculty seems to like the charges. When they get caught, the administration of Richard Brodhead just hands out money to the falsely accused and then engages in a little gratuitous character assassination after the fact. It's not his money after all
    ... I guess that's one approach ! And, as you imply, some colleges do have plenty of money to 'throw away' to cover their own a$$es ( and if they don't they can always raise next year's tuition cost ). But many colleges aren't so well financed, and as such have an arguable 'vested' interest in avoiding the leveling of actual rape charges which could in turn result in a future damage recovery lawsuit.

    As far as I'm concerned dishonest lawyers who let rapists run free while convicting innocent men deserve a special spot in hell.
    ... total agreement !!! I suppose this ties back to an 'unstated' point of this thread, i.e. that justice and money are inversely proportional.

    But, the rule wasn't really enforced until Mike Nifong saw a TV camera and couldn't tell the truth. He got what he deserved. A bunch of other DAs need the same treatment
    ... well, at minimum, the recent civil damages suits and settlements have made other DA's aware that the rule still exists ... thus making them more likely to control the content of public statements !


    Unfortunately, none of this alters the fact that, as an 'unintended consequence' of recent civil damages suits and settlements, rape victims who also have an 'adult' industry work history are arguably less likely than ever to have their complaints taken seriously.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-07-2014 at 03:15 AM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ....rape victims who also have an 'adult' industry work history are arguably less likely than ever to have their complaints taken seriously.
    No question about that. Not that women in the adult industry should be looking to colleges for justice. Colleges are not very practical places. The good ones will give you a good education in exchange for your dollars. In my experience, most college administrators and faculty are almost worthless when it comes to practical problems. Relying on them is sort of like expecting a city bus to take you to a suburban country club.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    in the way of an update ... from


    (snip)At Ohio State University, to avoid being guilty of “sexual assault” or “sexual violence,” you and your partner now apparently have to agree on the reason WHY you are making out or having sex. It’s not enough to agree to DO it, you have to agree on WHY: there has to be agreement “regarding the who, what, where, when, why, and how this sexual activity will take place.”

    There used to be a joke that women need a reason to have sex, while men only need a place. Does this policy reflect that juvenile mindset? Such a requirement baffles some women in the real world: a female member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights told me, “I am still trying to wrap my mind around the idea of any two intimates in the world agreeing as to ‘why.’”

    Ohio State’s sexual-assault policy, which effectively turns some welcome touching into “sexual assault,” may be the product of its recent Resolution Agreement with the Office for Civil Rights (where I used to work) to resolve a Title IX complaint over its procedures for handling cases of sexual harassment and assault. That agreement, on page 6, requires the University to “provide consistent definitions of and guidance about the University terms ‘sexual harassment,’ ‘consent,’ ‘sexual violence,’ ‘sexual assault,’ and ‘sexual misconduct.’” It is possible that Ohio State will broaden its already overbroad “sexual assault” definition even further: Some officials at Ohio State, like its Student Wellness Center, advocate defining all sex or “kissing” without “verbal,” “enthusiastic” consent as “sexual assault.”(snip)

    ... talk about the 'law of unintended consequences' !!! It appears that Ohio State has gone from a scenario where a sexual assault / rape complaint from a female student against a male student received little credibility and attention, to a new scenario where a male student virtually needs a signed 'pre-nuptual' agreement with a female student to avoid potential 'sexual assault' charges being successfully levelled over a kiss.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-18-2014 at 12:03 PM.

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    Default Re: "Carry That Weight"

    We should all just keep a note pad beside our bed. Sign on the dotted line please!

    *snicker*

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