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Thread: Men's Rights Activists

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Nope. You can't be racist towards white people. Racism describes patterns of discrimination that are institutionalized as “normal” throughout an entire culture. It’s based on an ideological belief that one “race” is somehow better than another “race”. It’s not one person discriminating at this point, but a whole population operating in a social structure that actually makes it difficult for a person not to discriminate. It's when intolerance in government laws, attitudes and ideals of a society are ingrained in a culture to the point where patterns of discrimination towards a certain race are institutionalized as normal. White people will never have to worry about whether or not they'll be hired for a job just because they're white. Reverse racism doesn't and can't exist. Prejudice? Sure, but those aren't the same thing. Are they both wrong? Absolutely, but not the same thing. You can't be racist towards white people and that will probably never be a thing. When a POC is mean to you, they are JUST being mean to you. Their entire society is not ACTIVELY discriminating against and oppressing you.

    But back on the topic, no you can't be sexist towards men either. Same idea as above. Can you be biased towards men? ABSOLUTELY. But do we live in a culture that actively favors men? YES. White cis males have the entirety of the system, whether it is the government, employment, religion, health access, agency, geared in their favor. Does this make them bad people? No. But sexism is a system that privileges men over and at the expense of women and that's really important that people understand that. Reverse sexism will never exist.

    Being aware of these things doesn't mean that you don't want equal playing field, but denying these things isn't doing anyone any favors either. Wanting fair pay, etc is part of the whole point of feminism. As much as the legal system is bullshit and child support/custody are issues, that's not sexism. It's bias, but bias/sexism are not one in the same.
    Ever heard of affirmative action? Sounds wonderful in theory -- in practise tho, there's a reason it's also called 'reverse' or 'positive discrimination'. Leads to quotas being established & filled based more on race/gender/religion rather than on whether the candidates are actually qualified for the job. I have seen this described in my relatives' field (police work) where several ppl were allowed to join the force even tho they were literally barely able to write their own names, much less fill out an entire police report. I've seen it myself in sm of my own vanilla jobs. Personally, I'd be quite uncomfortable being hired where every1 thought/knew I was only hired bc I'm a female, not bc I'm actually qualified for the position.

    Sexism is a form of bias, so I think you're splitting hairs w/ the whole 'sexism isn't the same as bias' argument. I agree w/ the 'sexism is sexism is sexism' view, but 'reverse' sexism could absolutely be at play, in the case of a custody decision automatically favouring the mother w/o regard to the father's capability to handle sole-parenting duties. Granted, most of such laws were written in an era when women really needed that extra favour, but given the advancements that women have made in the public domain I think these decisions need to be examined more on a case-by-case basis.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Harmful and bigoted yes, but not sexist or racist. Bias and prejudice towards men and white people are just that. Bias and prejudice, but it isn't racism because white people don't live in a society where there have ALWAYS been patterns of discrimination against them. It doesn't make it okay, but it isn't racism however bad it may be. It's the same thing with sexism.
    As for your 'reverse racism' 'not being a thing' Again, racism is racism is racism, but I promise you honey, its expression is not confined soley to any 'dominant culture'. It's as much an individually-held concept is it is culture- or nation-wide.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarletKitten View Post
    Yes, they are all over Reddit. They have their own subreddit: . They are just as annoying and whiny as the extreme feminists, if not more so. They complain about ridiculous concepts such as being the "disposable" gender and other such things. Why can't people just call themselves HUMAN rights activists? Separating the genders into their own separate rights movements is just causing even more friction b/w the genders. Am I the only one who sees this?
    The thing about men's rights is that no matter what men will stand with one another to support the ideals as a whole movement even if it works counter productively toward their cause. The men's movement that we se on the internet is counter to a healty culture, misguided and wrong yet no one is willing to support a feminist movement with the same personal zeal because deep down no one is willing to support women. When it comes to sex, sexuality and gender equality in the Western world men currently have a social advantage. However it is true women go to college more and or therefore more likely to find employment the obstacles still remain. The wage gap, sexual assault and gender inequalities are issues we as logical humans need to address. Everyone should be feminists there's no question about it because a feminist is someone who fights for the equality of both sexes no matter what.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by simone87 View Post
    you should grow some "balls" because vaginas are weak and balls are strong? lmao.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniela View Post
    As for your 'reverse racism' 'not being a thing' http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism Again, racism is racism is racism, but I promise you honey, its expression is not confined soley to any 'dominant culture'. It's as much an individually-held concept is it is culture- or nation-wide.
    Any person of any identity can be an asshole to any person of any other identity, but that doesn't make it oppression. You're ignoring the reality of power structures and oppression, which white people and men definitely don't have the short end of the stick on. Racial prejudice and racism are not the same thing. Prejudice towards men and sexism are simply not the same thing regardless of how you want to slice or dice it.

    Being prejudice is a terrible thing just like being racist/sexist is. No one is arguing that, but there is a difference in societal structures, privilege, and power. Cis men have almost an entire system built in their favor and can't be oppressed. The legal system is fucked in a lot of ways, and custody laws and favoring the mother regardless of her competency, etc. are still not sexism.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Harmful and bigoted yes, but not sexist or racist. Bias and prejudice towards men and white people are just that. Bias and prejudice, but it isn't racism because white people don't live in a society where there have ALWAYS been patterns of discrimination against them. It doesn't make it okay, but it isn't racism however bad it may be. It's the same thing with sexism.
    You are arguing about semantics. What you are saying has absolutely NO logic whatsoever. It just makes my head spin.

    Asking to consult with the opinions ingrained within the mass populace is NOT a requirement in order to qualify someone as racist or sexist. Having that kind of attitude is dangerous. It just leads to more racism and confusion. Entitlement to racism or sexism should not exist. Women and people of colour need to RISE UP ABOVE racism and start a new world. Telling them it's ok to be racist/sexist against the "white male" does not solve our world problems. You need to sit down and seriously rethink your entire mind frame on this subject.

    If I applied your logic to other things, it would be like saying that men cannot be raped, because it happens more often to women (supposedly, but who's keeping tally?). So, because rape seems to happen more often to women, I guess it cannot happen to men, RIGHT?! Ummmm.....WRONG.

    WRONG LOGIC. TRY AGAIN.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarletKitten View Post
    You are arguing about semantics. What you are saying has absolutely NO logic whatsoever. It just makes my head spin.

    Asking to consult with the opinions ingrained within the mass populace is NOT a requirement in order to qualify someone as racist or sexist. Having that kind of attitude is dangerous. It just leads to more racism and confusion. Entitlement to racism or sexism should not exist. Women and people of colour need to RISE UP ABOVE racism and start a new world. Telling them it's ok to be racist/sexist against the "white male" does not solve our world problems. You need to sit down and seriously rethink your entire mind frame on this subject.

    If I applied your logic to other things, it would be like saying that men cannot be raped, because it happens more often to women (supposedly, but who's keeping tally?). So, because rape seems to happen more often to women, I guess it cannot happen to men, RIGHT?! Ummmm.....WRONG.

    WRONG LOGIC. TRY AGAIN.
    Absolutely not. Patriarchy and social systems are to blame for that, not sexism towards men.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Cis men have almost an entire system built in their favor and can't be oppressed.
    WRONG!!!

    Men can be oppressed in all KINDS of ways. First of all, men of colour. White males can be oppressed as well.

    Have you thought of the following in which WHITE MALES are oppressed?:

    -WAR
    -Homelessness
    -poverty
    -being abused (OMG shocker! White males can get abused too!)
    -Going to prison
    -having extreme feminists HATE on them just because they are a WHITE MALE, which continues the sexism cycle of hatred.

    Just because you are born a white male doesn't mean you get everything handed to you on a golden platter. Get that delusion out of your head.
    Last edited by ScarletKitten; 01-21-2015 at 01:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    @Kittyhawk My goodness … ease up on the pic there, love -- your defencive projecting tendency is showing.

    I didn't see anything in the definition that even mentioned oppression. *goes back to re-read link* Nope, 'Oppression' is not a required component to make 'prejudice' cross-over into 'racism'. Did you just completely disregard the link I posted? … But really, no hard feelings if you simply weren't able to stomach a definition that contradicts your opinion.

    It sounds like you're trying to argue that whites are the only ppl who are truly racist, & men are the only ones who can be sexist.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Absolutely not. Patriarchy and social systems are to blame for that, not sexism towards men. No one is entitled to be racist and how you got any of that from my posts is baffling to me. It's not okay to be prejudice or racist towards anyone and that was the point I was trying to make.
    You are belittling racism/sexism towards white males. Which, in turn, excuses women and people of color to be racist/sexist. You are downgrading it to mere "prejudice" which is the same thing as racism/sexism, maybe to varying degrees, but it's the same meaning. So that is the same thing as saying it is more excusable to be racist as a nonwhite person, or be sexist as a woman. This line of thinking is not going to break the racism/sexism cycle in the world.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarletKitten View Post
    WRONG!!!

    Men can be oppressed in all KINDS of ways. First of all, men of colour. White males can be oppressed as well.

    Have you thought of the following in which WHITE MALES are oppressed?:

    -WAR
    -Homelessness
    -poverty
    -being abused (OMG shocker! White males can get abused too!)
    -Going to prison
    -having extreme feminists, such as yourself, HATE on them just because they are a WHITE MALE, which continues the sexism cycle of hatred. Feminists like you cause men to get furious and hate women EVEN MORE, or it makes them not take feminism seriously AT ALL, which makes our legitimate problems WORSE.

    Just because you are born a white male doesn't mean you get everything handed to you on a golden platter. Get that delusion out of your head.
    Right. So it's the fault of extreme, man hating feminists such as myself why men don't take feminism seriously? You do realize the whole point of feminism is to create a society in which individuals’ genders don’t restrict them from an equitable shot at success and happiness, right? Men included. Crazy, right? It's the patriarchal society that teaches men it's not okay for them to cry and they can't be raped. The fact that you'd actually think it's the fault of a "man hating feminist" that men (and other women because internalized misogyny is a real thing) don't take women seriously when feminist is FOR MEN just as much as it is for women is fucking nuts.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Right. So it's the fault of extreme, man hating feminists such as myself why men don't take feminism seriously? You do realize the whole point of feminism is to create a society in which individuals’ genders don’t restrict them from an equitable shot at success and happiness, right? Men included. Crazy, right? It's the patriarchal society that teaches men it's not okay for them to cry and they can't be raped. The fact that you'd actually think it's the fault of a "man hating feminist" that men (and other women because internalized misogyny is a real thing) don't take women seriously when feminist is FOR MEN just as much as it is for women is fucking nuts.
    I agree w/ you to an extent, Kitty -- I agree that a patriarchal, male-superiority complex is a HUGE reason for many of the problems in the world. But this is pretty much where my agreement w/ you ends.

    By saying that 'it's impossible to be racist, sexist, whatever-ist if you're not a member of the reigning male majority' you are completely glossing-over the smaller instances of racism/sexism/whatever-ism. I can tell you from experience that while affirmative action is a wonderful theory, in practise it leads to just as many (albeit different) problems. I also agree w/ Scarlet that you're completely minimalising the problems & inequalities that men face, as Scarlet listed above -- & while those problems she listed largely evolved as a result of supreme male-asshattery, suppressing them as patriarchal-minded men do does nothing but sink you to the same lvl. You're not doing any person, regardless of race or gender, a damn bit of good w/ that mentality. In fact, you're mirroring & thus perpetuating the very 'prejudicial'/'racist' behaviour you claim to despise so greatly.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    "create a society in which individuals’ genders don’t restrict them from an equitable shot at success and happiness"

    I agree 100% with this. The same way I think that someone can be sexist/racist regardless of their own race/sex. If everyone is inherently equal, then they can be bigoted as anyone else, regardless of the "white male" patriarchy that exists. I don't like it either, but I try to focus on solutions to our problems as a human species. I don't forgive continued hatred. I understand resentment and anger, but eventually you have to release that and become peaceful knowing that what we are as humans, regardless of our body parts or the colour of our skin, is AMAZING.

    So, in conclusion, nonwhites CAN be racist against whites. And women CAN be sexist against men. The end.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Recognizing that we live in a culture that actively favors white cis men/white people isn't excusing people to be prejudice towards others. There are extremest, man hating feminsts, but I'm not one for recognizing everything that I mentioned. This isn't a contest to see whose lives suck the most and listing ways cis men are "oppressed" doesn't really change that fact. Men being raped, abused (not just cis white males) isn't the fault of feminists who don't pay attention or think it doesn't matter because it happens more to women. This has nothing to do with marginalizing their experiences or saying poc/women have it so much worse so it doesn't matter.
    But I'm not going to win this one so sending good vibes to everyone, those darned men included <3 check out my blog, fam gothstvr.tumblr.com
    Last edited by Kittyhawk; 01-16-2015 at 04:52 PM.
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    ^^I read your post twice and I still can't comprehend. Maybe it's because I feel hazy at the moment, lol...

    I sincerely hope that one day, men and women of all kinds across the world, can live in peace and harmony. That would be awesome.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniela View Post
    I agree w/ you to an extent, Kitty -- I agree that a patriarchal, male-superiority complex is a HUGE reason for many of the problems in the world. But this is pretty much where my agreement w/ you ends.

    By saying that 'it's impossible to be racist, sexist, whatever-ist if you're not a member of the reigning male majority' you are completely glossing-over the smaller instances of racism/sexism/whatever-ism. I can tell you from experience that while affirmative action is a wonderful theory, in practise it leads to just as many (albeit different) problems. I also agree w/ Scarlet that you're completely minimalising the problems & inequalities that men face, as Scarlet listed above -- & while those problems she listed largely evolved as a result of supreme male-asshattery, suppressing them as patriarchal-minded men do does nothing but sink you to the same lvl. You're not doing any person, regardless of race or gender, a damn bit of good w/ that mentality. In fact, you're mirroring & thus perpetuating the very 'prejudicial'/'racist' behaviour you claim to despise so greatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Recognizing that we live in a culture that actively favors white cis men/white people isn't excusing people to be prejudice towards others. There are extremest, man hating feminsts, but I'm not one for recognizing everything that I mentioned. This isn't a contest to see whose lives suck the most and listing ways cis men are "oppressed" doesn't really change that fact. Men being raped, abused (not just cis white males) isn't the fault of feminists who don't pay attention or think it doesn't matter because it happens more to women. This has nothing to do with marginalizing their experiences or saying poc/women have it so much worse so it doesn't matter.
    But I'm not going to win this one so sending good vibes to everyone, those darned men included <3 check out my blog, fam gothstvr.tumblr.com

    I think we should focus on how to improve and achieve empowerment for women and girls and not on how to take power from cis gender patriarchal societies of old. This is a new world we are living in let us SJW for this day and age.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    I agree completely with the above two posts. Bless.
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Nope. You can't be racist towards white people. Racism describes patterns of discrimination that are institutionalized as “normal” throughout an entire culture. It’s based on an ideological belief that one “race” is somehow better than another “race”. It’s not one person discriminating at this point, but a whole population operating in a social structure that actually makes it difficult for a person not to discriminate. It's when intolerance in government laws, attitudes and ideals of a society are ingrained in a culture to the point where patterns of discrimination towards a certain race are institutionalized as normal. White people will never have to worry about whether or not they'll be hired for a job just because they're white. Reverse racism doesn't and can't exist. Prejudice? Sure, but those aren't the same thing. Are they both wrong? Absolutely, but not the same thing. You can't be racist towards white people and that will never be a thing. When a POC is mean to you, they are JUST being mean to you. Their entire society is not ACTIVELY discriminating against and oppressing you.

    But back on the topic, no you can't be sexist towards men either. Same idea as above. Can you be biased towards men? Absolutely. But do we live in a culture that actively favors men? YES. White cis males have the entirety of the system, whether it is the government, employment, religion, health access, agency, geared in their favor. Does this make them bad people? No. But sexism is a system that privileges men over and at the expense of women and that's really important that people understand that. Reverse sexism will never exist.

    Not to mention, I've never seen a "mens rights activist" trying to fight for the rights of transgender and gay men.

    Being aware of these things doesn't mean that you don't want equal playing field, but denying these things isn't doing anyone any favors either. Wanting fair pay, etc is part of the whole point of feminism. As much as the legal system is bullshit and child support/custody are issues, that's not sexism. It's bias, but bias/sexism are not one in the same.
    Bullshit, you CAN be racist towards white people. I've encountered racism for being white. You can be sexist towards whites. I've lost jobs due to being white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aniela View Post
    I agree w/ you to an extent, Kitty -- I agree that a patriarchal, male-superiority complex is a HUGE reason for many of the problems in the world. But this is pretty much where my agreement w/ you ends.

    By saying that 'it's impossible to be racist, sexist, whatever-ist if you're not a member of the reigning male majority' you are completely glossing-over the smaller instances of racism/sexism/whatever-ism. I can tell you from experience that while affirmative action is a wonderful theory, in practise it leads to just as many (albeit different) problems. I also agree w/ Scarlet that you're completely minimalising the problems & inequalities that men face, as Scarlet listed above -- & while those problems she listed largely evolved as a result of supreme male-asshattery, suppressing them as patriarchal-minded men do does nothing but sink you to the same lvl. You're not doing any person, regardless of race or gender, a damn bit of good w/ that mentality. In fact, you're mirroring & thus perpetuating the very 'prejudicial'/'racist' behaviour you claim to despise so greatly.
    In theory affirmative action is a great thing to level the playing field but in reality what it has done is made unqualified people receive jobs they shouldn't have on the backs of the more qualified. I have lost government jobs due to being white and I know of a class action lawsuit from several white cops where they were bypassed because they were white. I know men who have lost jobs because being men. Speaking of men, what is rarely spoken about is how lower income working men often find no help with anything because affirmative action won't usually help them and their choices are limited.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    The tumblr "cis-white" hate attitude has got to stop. Ignorant. Ignorant. Ignorant.

    Hating on and attempting to oppress a group - in this case the "cis" "white" - is NOT the way to beget change in the system.

    if you want change, EMPOWER the people whom you call "oppressed". Hint: you can't do it by calling them oppressed.
    Last edited by NightGoddess; 01-17-2015 at 03:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    I never implied I "hate" men or cis-white men. But when it comes to the men's rights movement, I don't ever recall seeing the rights of gay or transgender men included in that. It's not a hate attitude or even an all men suck thing. This man-hating radical feminist thing is a lot more dangerous and ignorant than that. Not that that's a good thing because it's not, but feminists are literally the best men's rights advocates.
    I wasn't speaking of you, specifically, I'm quite sure you never implied that at all. I just see so much of that attitude in so many people and it is, frankly, ridiculous.

    I completely agree that MRA's do not include trans and gay men in their shpiel, another example of why they are, also, ridiculous.

    IMO, the whole social justice movement is well-intentioned, yet completely uninformed and off-base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGoddess View Post
    I wasn't speaking of you, specifically, I'm quite sure you never implied that at all. I just see so much of that attitude in so many people and it is, frankly, ridiculous.

    I completely agree that MRA's do not include trans and gay men in their shpiel, another example of why they are, also, ridiculous.
    My fault, I couldn't tell. I was in the men's rights subreddit and could literally feel my blood pressure go up. They're reaching so hard on some things it would be entertaining if it wasn't so sad and ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGoddess View Post
    The tumblr "cis-white" hate attitude has got to stop. Ignorant. Ignorant. Ignorant.

    Hating on and attempting to oppress a group - in this case the "cis" "white" - is NOT the way to beget change in the system.

    if you want change, EMPOWER the people whom you call "oppressed". Hint: you can't do it by calling them oppressed.
    Believe it or not, we still are oppressed to an extent. I don't mean that just for black people, but most or all poc. I've felt it and I'm sure that there are blacks who feel completely different, but trying to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist by not talking about it isn't going to change anything. Do you know what a white ally is? Maybe instead of trying to make it a contest on whose lives suck the most, maybe try to understand where I'm coming from. White people are part of the solution to that and I see way too much of trying to make the conversation about them instead of trying to really understand it and understand their role in the whole thing. It's really interesting to see how much feminism and racial issues are connected and how relevant to each other they are. At the end of the day, this is my life and the lives of my relatives and friends, and oppression is something I deal with every single day of my life. Trying to ignore that or for non poc to say that it isn't real is like saying my experiences aren't real. At this point I really don't expect anyone to even remotely attempt to understand this, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm very much so empowered, but change isn't going to happen without having conversations about it and sometimes those conversations might include words you don't like. Whatever, down with the patriarchy.
    Last edited by Kittyhawk; 01-17-2015 at 04:25 AM.
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  34. #49
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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyhawk View Post
    Believe it or not, we still are oppressed to an extent. I don't mean that just for black people, but most or all poc. I've felt it and I'm sure that there are blacks who feel completely different, but trying to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist by not talking about it isn't going to change anything. Do you know what a white ally is? Maybe instead of trying to make it a contest on whose lives suck the most, maybe try to understand where I'm coming from. White people are part of the solution to that and I see way too much of trying to make the conversation about them instead of trying to really understand it and understand their role in the whole thing. It's really interesting to see how much feminism and racial issues are connected and how relevant to each other they are. At the end of the day, this is my life and the lives of my relatives and friends, and oppression is something I deal with every single day of my life. Trying to ignore that or for non poc to say that it isn't real is like saying my experiences aren't real. At this point I really don't expect anyone to even remotely attempt to understand this, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm very much so empowered, but change isn't going to happen without having conversations about it and sometimes those conversations might include words you don't like. Whatever, down with the patriarchy.
    The main problem I have w/ your posts here is that you are displaying the exact behaviours I bolded, & which you claim to hate so much. You're the one making it all abt how 'OMG, everyone who ISN'T a white male has it sooooooooo horrible, white males couldn't possibly know what REAL suffering is bc they are white+male & they all have all the control' You're the one making it a 'whose life sux worst' contest & in the process you are marginalising the real problems that white men face -- I refer you again to ScarletKitten's list. You are the one saying these problems don't exist, thus saying those problems are not real. You are like the opposite side of the same high&mighty patriarchal coin -- literally mirroring that 'my position & my suffering are inherently more important & real than yours bc I'm _______ & you're ______' mentality. It's just as pointless & disgusting coming from you as it is from any white male, & it's why ppl are having a hard time taking you seriously in this thread.

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    Default Re: Men's Rights Activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniela View Post
    The main problem I have w/ your posts here is that you are displaying the exact behaviours I bolded, & which you claim to hate so much. You're the one making it all abt how 'OMG, everyone who ISN'T a white male has it sooooooooo horrible, white males couldn't possibly know what REAL suffering is bc they are white+male & they all have all the control' You're the one making it a 'whose life sux worst' contest & in the process you are marginalising the real problems that white men face -- I refer you again to ScarletKitten's list. You are the one saying these problems don't exist, thus saying those problems are not real. You are like the opposite side of the same high&mighty patriarchal coin -- literally mirroring that 'my position & my suffering are inherently more important & real than yours bc I'm _______ & you're ______' mentality. It's just as pointless & disgusting coming from you as it is from any white male, & it's why ppl are having a hard time taking you seriously in this thread.
    You're completely right and i give up.
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