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Thread: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

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    Default How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    I did the math and if we stay with my in laws another 4-6 months I could easily save up 20% down for a nice little house in Bloomington (where I want to move.) I've been looking at houses in the $80-$90k range that would be just fine for us. The thing is I haven't been back at dancing very long-only a few months. If I file my 1099 and build up some credit do you think that would be enough to get approved for a mortgage? I talked to another dancer who is in real estate and she told me I should start using my credit card (which I have only for emergencies) and pay it off to build up my credit. I don't have a car note or anything like that to prove how responsible I am. The husband pays all the bills and we don't pay rent obviously. I've never bought a house before and just wondering how hard it is for dancers?
    Last edited by wednesday86; 11-27-2014 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Generally speaking, lacking a 'vanilla' job and depending on 'self-employed' income places the would-be mortgage borrower in the 'sub-prime' category. This will likely result in difficulties with 'income verification', as well as higher costs for the mortgage ... higher down payment, higher interest rate, mandatory insurance, etc.

    see

    also

    Thus the 'sub-prime' classification for self-employed persons is likely to lead to the following issues for would-be dancer / camgirl mortgage borrowers ...

    - the need to show two years worth of tax returns ( with appropriate levels of income declared and taxes paid ) for income verification purposes

    - the need for a minimum 700 credit rating

    - the need for ~30% worth of down payment / closing cost money, with a documented history of how this money was earned

    Additionally, it's possible that would-be mortgage lenders are going to want to see some 'credentials' in regard to how the would-be mortgage borrower intends to continue making mortgage payments over the entire 30 year term of a mortgage. Bankers aren't stupid people, and realize that the high earnings potential of a dancer / camgirl isn't likely to continue until she reaches age ~50+. Thus some would-be mortgage lenders may want to see a college degree or other 'credentials' which would illustrate an alternative source of earnings as the dancer / camgirl 'retires' well before her 30 year mortgage has been paid off.

    However, the fact that you are married may help you side-step some of these issues, provided that your husband has a 'vanilla' job with sufficient income level to qualify for a mortgage without significant additional financial contributions from your ( in the lender's eyes questionable and unreliable ) dancing earnings.
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-28-2014 at 07:53 AM.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Does your husband have a job? You could just put it in his name. You need 3 years tax returns and decent credit. I own 3 houses and never had a problem getting a loan but I had all the documents they needed. Good luck.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Generally speaking, lacking a 'vanilla' job and depending on 'self-employed' income places the would-be mortgage borrower in the 'sub-prime' category. This will likely result in difficulties with 'income verification', as well as higher costs for the mortgage ... higher down payment, higher interest rate, mandatory insurance, etc.

    see

    also

    Thus the 'sub-prime' classification for self-employed persons is likely to lead to the following issues for would-be dancer / camgirl mortgage borrowers ...

    - the need to show two years worth of tax returns ( with appropriate levels of income declared and taxes paid ) for income verification purposes

    - the need for a minimum 700 credit rating

    - the need for ~30% worth of down payment / closing cost money, with a documented history of how this money was earned

    Additionally, it's possible that would-be mortgage lenders are going to want to see some 'credentials' in regard to how the would-be mortgage borrower intends to continue making mortgage payments over the entire 30 year term of a mortgage. Bankers aren't stupid people, and realize that the high earnings potential of a dancer / camgirl isn't likely to continue until she reaches age ~50+. Thus some would-be mortgage lenders may want to see a college degree or other 'credentials' which would illustrate an alternative source of earnings as the dancer / camgirl 'retires' well before her 30 year mortgage has been paid off.

    However, the fact that you are married may help you side-step some of these issues, provided that your husband has a 'vanilla' job with sufficient income level to qualify for a mortgage without significant additional financial contributions from your ( in the lender's eyes questionable and unreliable ) dancing earnings.
    Melonie that's not true. Any body with a job can be high risk. Hell my moms husband just lost his job. Entertainers can always get work. Also you don't need a 700 credit score. Most companies will do it with around a 650 if every thing else is in line.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    ^^^ yes anyone can be 'high risk'. But self-employed would-be borrowers are officially considered to be 'high risk' by potential lenders whether they actually represent a high risk or not !!! New post-2008 crash bank regulations / policies are responsible for that ... in particular, the new difficulty involved for the mortgage lender to 'off-load' risk of losses on a mortgage written for a self-employed borrower to FHA, to private investors, etc. See The link specifically mentions the case of ex-brokers who had established their own private investment firms. Despite having millions of dollars in the bank, they were denied new mortgages due to lack of sufficient documentation regarding the performance of their new business.

    Agreed that the credit score 'cutoff' varies among different lenders, and also varies with time based on changing market conditions. While a 650 score may be considered sufficient for approving a mortgage for an 'employee' with a regular, predictable paycheck, it may not be sufficient for a self-employed applicant whose future income can go up and down 'at random'. Again this is driven by lender policy ... from

    (snip)"HUD does not reference any credit score requirement for approving financing for an FHA insured mortgage. Again it is the money sources and/or investors providing funds for the lenders that is placing these 700 credit score requirements on the system.(snip)

    (snip)" If a homeowner or homebuyer has a few late payments on some consumer debt; however has never been 30 days late on a mortgage or rent payment within the past several years, the statistical expectation of default from such particular “credit score below 700 borrower”, could be even less than that of many 800 credit score borrowers. There are a few of the right lenders which are set up to address this issue in a securitization; while most others are not. Thus having a low credit score, below 700, need not always impact one's cost for financing a home if the right lender can be identified. (snip)

    Thus 'most' mortgage lenders being willing to write mortgages for self-employed persons below a 700 credit score is actually just 'a select few' mortgage lenders ...
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-30-2014 at 05:05 AM.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by michele11 View Post
    Does your husband have a job? You could just put it in his name. You need 3 years tax returns and decent credit. I own 3 houses and never had a problem getting a loan but I had all the documents they needed. Good luck.
    Yes he does, but obviously doesn't make nearly as much as I do. We could always try to do it in his name,..of course I'll be the one with the cash for a down payment. Thanks

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Melonie, I was thinking of paying the house off within 3-4 years, saving up and putting an extra $20k or so down every year on top of mortgage. I know loans are usually 15 or 30 years but I could pay it off sooner than that right? Do you think we would be more likely to get approved for a 15yr loan?

    Edit: What about even buying a fixer upper in cash and getting a loan for renovations? There are a lot of extremely old/cheap houses in the neighborhood I want. Or is getting a reno loan the same as mortgage?

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Generally speaking, lacking a 'vanilla' job and depending on 'self-employed' income places the would-be mortgage borrower in the 'sub-prime' category. This will likely result in difficulties with 'income verification', as well as higher costs for the mortgage ... higher down payment, higher interest rate, mandatory insurance, etc.
    This is a big deal we had to put up with. Granted we got in before the last major change to it several years back ( like 6 or 7 now I think) when we bought this house, both being self employed and incorporated together we had to have almost double the tax records and statements in years than anyone else would to prove our stability.

    we lucked out though and ended up with an insanely good deal and very very low rates and such on a decently sized house in a good area - but had I lived say closer to seattle it would have been a lot more difficult so region can also add to the difficulty
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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Melonie, I was thinking of paying the house off within 3-4 years, saving up and putting an extra $20k or so down every year on top of mortgage. I know loans are usually 15 or 30 years but I could pay it off sooner than that right? Do you think we would be more likely to get approved for a 15yr loan?
    Yes you can pre-pay a mortgage. However, doing so may result in monetary 'penalty' charges because this deprives the mortgage investors of expected interest income. This can also negatively impact credit rating. Definitely check the 'fine print' regarding mortgage terms.

    In regard to a 15 year mortgage, where dancers are concerned this is an easier 'sell' to potential lenders, because it reduces awkward 'ability to repay' questions ( i.e. lenders are smart enough to realize that there are extremely few 'strippers' who can keep working, and earning good money, into their 40's and 50's to repay a 30 year mortgage via dancing earnings ). However, on the 'flip side', going with a 15 year term increases monthly payments by 60-70% vs a 30 year term - which also increases the necessary documented income level for loan approval by a similar 60-70%.

    In regard to paying cash to purchase a low priced home, doing so provides a large amount of equity which greatly reduces lender risk where a future home equity loan is concerned. However, even home equity loans have 'proof of income' requirements, debt to income ratio requirements etc. But, generally speaking, this approach should be much less problematic than seeking mortgage financing. Obviously, having a couple of years pass between the home purchase and the home equity loan application would also allow you to generate the tax returns proving your dancing income.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by wednesday86 View Post
    Melonie, I was thinking of paying the house off within 3-4 years, saving up and putting an extra $20k or so down every year on top of mortgage. I know loans are usually 15 or 30 years but I could pay it off sooner than that right? Do you think we would be more likely to get approved for a 15yr loan?

    Edit: What about even buying a fixer upper in cash and getting a loan for renovations? There are a lot of extremely old/cheap houses in the neighborhood I want. Or is getting a reno loan the same as mortgage?
    If your going to pay cash your going to need bank statements showing you have quite a bit and tax returns in case the I.R.S. Comes calling. Here in Florida we have so many houses in foreclosure it's easier to get a loan.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    ^^^ agreed that such a large 'cash' expenditure is going to need business record 'backup' to prove that said cash was earned legally. This means depositing dancing earnings into a separate 'business only' bank account, keeping a 'set of books' for your dancing business, filing Schedule C's and paying appropriate taxes etc.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    I just saw this news and I don't know if it is even helpful... but if it does, yay.

    http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/08/real...html?hpt=hp_t2




    Your Camming Bookmarks!

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Bloomberg had this to say ... from

    (snip)Lenders have said that these rule changes won’t have a significant impact on lending. Brian Moynihan, the chief executive officer of Bank of America Corp., said his company won’t be extending credit to a broader range of borrowers.

    “You won’t see us start to expand our criteria much past what we’ve done today,” Moynihan, 55, said Nov. 12 at a New York investor conference. “I don’t think there’s a big incentive for us to start to try to create more mortgage availability where the customers are susceptible to default.” (snip)

    (snip)While 3 percent down loans will appeal to buyers who haven’t saved enough money for a larger deposit, borrowers will probably still need to have a high FICO credit score. Applicants approved for mortgages to purchase homes had an average score of 755 in August, according to Ellie Mae (ELLI), a mortgage technology company.

    That’s well above the average score for Americans, which was 692 in April. (snip)

    (snip)Watt has also been negotiating with banks and adjusting rules for most of 2014 to resolve the biggest road block to home lending -- who pays for loans backed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that go bad. Lenders have stiffened mortgage requirements above what the two government-controlled companies require -- so-called overlays -- to reduce the possibility of defaults and loan losses. (snip)

    (snip)Starting on Dec. 13, Fannie Mae will back loans with a 3 percent deposit and permit borrowers who refinance to reduce their equity to 3 percent to cover closing costs, the company said in a statement. Freddie Mac will begin in March to buy 3-percent down mortgages to borrowers with below-median earnings.(snip)

    (snip)Codel said Wells Fargo would be carefully scrutinizing borrowers who opt to put only 3 percent down.

    “The customers are going to be fully underwritten,” he said. “We’re going to be looking hard for sustainability and ability to repay when you don’t have as much equity in the product.” (snip)


    While none of this is final, it would appear that to be eligible for one of these new 3% down mortgage loans ...

    - your median income needs to be below the national average, which is about $29k for a single person or $53k for a household

    - your credit score needs to be above 700 ... perhaps significantly above

    - your 'ability to repay' and 'sustainability' will need to pass serious lender scrutiny ... i.e. income now derived primarily from dancing or camming not explaining how mortgage payments are still going to be made 10, 20, 30 years down the road.

    - the purchase price of the home being bought will need to be comparatively low, given that Fannie / Freddie and/or the mortgage lender are still bound by a 31% regulation. In other words, at just below the $53k median income cutoff, the maximum amount of household budget which can be allocated to a home mortgage + property taxes + related insurance costs is about $1350 per month. Assuming that maybe $1000 of that can be used to pay the mortgage alone, that translates into a maximum property purchase price in the < $200k ballpark.

    As alluded to in the Bloomberg piece, this new 3% mortgage program, while making for a nice headline, isn't likely to actually 'help' a significant number of new home buyers. Large mortgage lender banks are still antsy that Fannie and Freddy may force THEM to actually take the losses when such mortgages go into default ( vs Fannie / Freddie = the US taxpayers ) ... and as a result will still be 'overlaying' strict requirements which will likely disqualify the vast majority of would-be borrowers under this new program.

    However, it's also likely that some specialty 'subprime' lenders will offer these 3% down payment mortgages without 'overlaying' stricter requirements, but it's also likely that those 'subprime' lenders will jack up interest rates, require mortgage insurance be paid for by the borrower, etc. But, given the 31% regulatory limit, the resulting extra / higher costs will also further reduce the maximum purchase price of houses which can be purchased under this program.
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-09-2014 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Listen to Melonie she is right on, hubby is a Doctor with his own practice he had to provide 2 years of tax returns even after we got his credit score back to 720. 20% down payment and we had to show where the money came from.We still ended up with a higher interest rate of 8.5 which he will refi in 3 months, our mortgage broker tracked down an investor who agreed to keep us in his portfolio. ( jumbo loan)

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    ^^^ indeed ! An 8.5% mortgage interest rate is definitely in 'subprime' territory. But many doctors are self-employed, and there also is some question about the present versus future earnings potential of doctors. Thus it's not surprising to hear this.

    The bottom line seems to be that, since the subprime loan debacle of a few years ago, both new gov't regulations and new lender policies have tried to saddle the actual lenders with losses when a loan defaults. This isn't altogether surprising since Fannie, Freddie, the FHA etc. are collectively on the hook for hundreds of billions of dollars worth of earlier defaulted loan losses ( which the US taxpayer will eventually have to pay ). Thus the lender banks / financial institutions are now very focused on evaluating the actual risk involved for any new loan in an effort to minimize their own future loss risk. Being self-employed automatically creates a high risk situation in the minds of those lenders ... leading to heavy scrutiny in regard to the self-employed person's 'proven' income level, ability to repay vs current income and other current financial liabilities, ability to sustain future repayments over the entire term of the loan, etc.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    As a business owner, I can verify what Melonie says above. I went to the same bank where I have my business account, so they had years of proof of my gross income, and they still put me through the wringer. I had to do accountant statements, personal and business taxes, and what no one has mentioned so far, a 4506 to the IRS so that the bank can see your submitted tax returns. They also needed a 719 (??) FICO.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    ^^^oh yeah, signing an IRS 4506-T 'disclosure' form is now pretty much a routine requirement for self-employed loan applicants.

    I will also carefully attempt to add the comment that, as the result of potential lenders seeing the names of the 'payer' companies the loan applicant received money from on 'disclosed' IRS 1099 forms, additional questions and/or problems might arise.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninelives View Post
    Listen to Melonie she is right on, hubby is a Doctor with his own practice he had to provide 2 years of tax returns even after we got his credit score back to 720. 20% down payment and we had to show where the money came from.We still ended up with a higher interest rate of 8.5 which he will refi in 3 months, our mortgage broker tracked down an investor who agreed to keep us in his portfolio. ( jumbo loan)
    My rate is 4%. I find that hard to believe. I also built a house from the ground up ( construction loan) which are extremely hard to get. and I've never had a rate that high. except my very first house I bought when I was 21. it was 10% but loans were at about 8% then. My gf just bought a house here in florida. Her first house and her credit score is about 700 she said and he rate was 5%. and I own several homes and refi all the time...

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahuba View Post
    As a business owner, I can verify what Melonie says above. I went to the same bank where I have my business account, so they had years of proof of my gross income, and they still put me through the wringer. I had to do accountant statements, personal and business taxes, and what no one has mentioned so far, a 4506 to the IRS so that the bank can see your submitted tax returns. They also needed a 719 (??) FICO.
    It's always been that way. Every house I've bought I signed a 4506.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahuba View Post
    As a business owner, I can verify what Melonie says above. I went to the same bank where I have my business account, so they had years of proof of my gross income, and they still put me through the wringer. I had to do accountant statements, personal and business taxes, and what no one has mentioned so far, a 4506 to the IRS so that the bank can see your submitted tax returns. They also needed a 719 (??) FICO.
    Never go to your own bank for a loan. I have 5 times enough over to pay for a car and got denied at that bank. I have 4 bank accounts by the way. I had trouble years ago trying to go through banks. I never had a problem with wells, chase, other that didn't have banks in the area then.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Which part is hard to believe? If you see my previous thread on dollar den you will see I asked for help on this forum for this very loan. I'm a real estate agent so the last thing I would want to do is mislead anyone, it is hard to get a loan in this environment, especially this year because of more stringent regulations, so unless you bought land and built this very year, your past real estate dealing are not relevant to this arguement. On a different note, what you have done is very impressive .

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    That does seem to be the case but I can't figure out why. In my mind, my years of being a verified stable customer with strong, growing revenue would make getting a jumbo a snap, but no. This was B of A, btw.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    ^ I know exactly. You would think so but it's not the case.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninelives View Post
    Which part is hard to believe? If you see my previous thread on dollar den you will see I asked for help on this forum for this very loan. I'm a real estate agent so the last thing I would want to do is mislead anyone, it is hard to get a loan in this environment, especially this year because of more stringent regulations, so unless you bought land and built this very year, your past real estate dealing are not relevant to this arguement. On a different note, what you have done is very impressive .
    Thanks. I didn't mean to offend you but I have several rental properties and have refinanced many times over the years to get lower rates. I just refinanced my one rental with chase( after years of trying to get them to but they wouldn't because it was a rental) down from 7 3/4 down to 4% last year. I don't know where your located but here in Florida they are a lot mote lenient.

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    Default Re: How difficult is it to buy a house these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by michele11 View Post
    Thanks. I didn't mean to offend you but I have several rental properties and have refinanced many times over the years to get lower rates. I just refinanced my one rental with chase( after years of trying to get them to but they wouldn't because it was a rental) down from 7 3/4 down to 4% last year. I don't know where your located but here in Florida they are a lot mote lenient.
    No it's ok, I'm in Las Vegas, we were at the center of a lot of the subprime stuff, could be why. It also sounds like you have a really good track record with these rentals, my husband hasn't bought property since 2006. The company or investor was Oaktree funding, who I hear is one of the few who will still offer a short term product (as we will refi in 3 mths)

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