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Thread: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

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    God/dess audrey_k's Avatar
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    Default arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    So I recently got hired to be a part-time nanny for a family-- the pay is good, the hours are good, the family is good, I'm happy to have found a job, especially as I'm going out of my mind from boredom from not working.

    When I accepted the job I fucked on a few things just because I haven't done this before, and I'm fine with letting most of them go (some tax stuff) except for this vacation days thing. My employer gets 5 weeks of vacation so she told me I can just take 5 weeks when she takes time off from work. I said OK at the time but it really didn't sit well with me. Like why should I have to take vacation when you want to? I can't plan any vacations or trips for myself? What if you don't want to take any vacation days during the summer and only during the winter, I can't have a beach holiday?

    However I said OK because I assumed that was just the way it works for nannies, but since then I've been told that a lot of nannies negotiate with their employers to do half and half-- the employer picks half the days and the nanny picks the other half. I feel like this is more reasonable. We haven't put any of this in writing or into a contract, and it was just briefly discussed during my first interview. The woman has never had a nanny before and she was pretty clueless about the whole process, so I don't think she was trying to fuck me over in regards to it, just assumed that's how it goes.

    I start work on Monday and the first few weeks are kind of trial days to show me how things work and get used to being around her kids before she begins work, so I don't see the point in bringing it up Monday since things may go horrible and we decide it doesn't work out. But I'm trying to think of the best way to bring it up? She wants to do a salary evaluation in three months to increase my salary by 15% if things are going well, but I don't really want to have to wait 3 months to bring it up.

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    God/dess shanna dior's Avatar
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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    I'd wait til the trial period is over. Well -- do you guys have date set for when it ends? If no, set that up asap or else you could be on trial period indefinitely. I assume once it's over, you're going to be signing some sort of contract? That's the time to bring it and any other negotiations up, because by then you are both clearly interested in continuing the relationship so you have a stronger position to negotiate from.

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    Banned Aniela's Avatar
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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Many of the straight jobs I've held had a 90-day 'probation period' b4 work benefits kicked in & vacation days started accumulating. I don't think 3mo is an unreasonable time to wait -- like you said, both you & the lady are new to this sort of arrangement, & it might not even work out anyway for any number of reasons. I say simmer down & just let it play out for right now, the beach isn't going anywhere & isn't it a bit chilly for the beach anyway right now? There's no reason bringing up your vacation arrangements later will be worse than now, in fact I think if you bring it up now, when you've not even really started, it could come across as being pushy & getting way ahead of yourself.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    I agree with Aniela. Just wait it out. Plus, once you two build a relationship and if she really starts to like you she will probably be more willing to be flexible in vacation days. If you're great with her kids and respectful and she loves you as a nanny she won't want to lose you over a vacation days dispute.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    The reason I'm thinking about it now is because my bf wants to buy tickets for a summer vacay before the prices go up-- we want to go to Asia. The trial period ends in the beginning of Feb once she goes back to work-- she's already hired me so unless I'm horrible with her children I'm set to begin since no one else is going through a trial period, she'd literally have to have someone start immediately without any break-in period (I'm still getting paid and working 30 hours a week during this 'trial period'). So I'll wait till then.

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    God/dess audrey_k's Avatar
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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Partly I don't want to invest all this time working for someone only to find out we disagree on something I'm not willing to budge with. She's supposed to be paying all my taxes as an employer (that's the arrangement here), I'm actually not even allowed to file taxes as self-employed as a nanny so will have to file as something else on my tax return, I'm letting that go which is saving her a few thousand pounds... so I feel like I should get to decide when I want to take time off. If I wait three months to bring this up with her, it leaves me in the position of having to look for a new job after investing a ton of time in this one. It seems to be a pretty normal arrangement to do 50/50 so I would rather just look for something else if she can't accept it (but I feel like that will be more difficult once I become attached to her kids).

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Just mention it if you get a chance. Maybe she already has time planned in the same timeframe your SO does. If nothing else mention that your BF wants to book tickets, could she give some advice? You might "hustle" her into thinking she is helping a young girl out.

    By the way, I am exceedingly pleased to hear that you found work, and have one more stressor off your back.

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    Banned Aniela's Avatar
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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Well since you're not in adult work anymore, unfortunately giving up sm freedoms come w/ the territory. I am not unsympathetic here, that's just what it is. I also get that you guys want to beat rising travel prices -- but your bf would do well to keep that in mind himself, considering that you not only gave up your adult-work gigs for him, but the disposable income & the time-related freedoms that come w/ it.

    You also don't want to dmg your professional relationship w/ this woman, even if the job doesn't work out, bc you run the risk of her informing other potential nanny-searchers that you're difficult to work w/.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unkle Fuzzy View Post
    Just mention it if you get a chance. Maybe she already has time planned in the same timeframe your SO does. If nothing else mention that your BF wants to book tickets, could she give some advice? You might "hustle" her into thinking she is helping a young girl out.

    By the way, I am exceedingly pleased to hear that you found work, and have one more stressor off your back.
    Me too. I can't wait to go back to work. At first it was nice having free time, but now I'm bored out of mind. Can't wait to go back to being occupied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniela View Post
    Well since you're not in adult work anymore, unfortunately giving up sm freedoms come w/ the territory. I am not unsympathetic here, that's just what it is. I also get that you guys want to beat rising travel prices -- but your bf would do well to keep that in mind himself, considering that you not only gave up your adult-work gigs for him, but the disposable income & the time-related freedoms that come w/ it.

    You also don't want to dmg your professional relationship w/ this woman, even if the job doesn't work out, bc you run the risk of her informing other potential nanny-searchers that you're difficult to work w/.
    I undestand what you're saying Aniela, obviously leaving sex work there are a lot of cons, one being money, and two being not being able to make your own schedule, which is probably the hardest part for me because part of the reason I moved here was so I could travel. But I don't feel like what I'm asking for is unreasonable. I'm not asking to have unlimited vacation days whenever like a stripper would, to just come in when I feel like it and leave early if need be. But if I was working in any office in London I would get 5-6 weeks of paid vacation to put to use whenever I please. Obviously that's not realistic in this situation because of the child care issue-- that would mean she can never pick a vacation day for her family-- but I don't feel like it's really reasonable to expect me to never pick a vacation day for myself either. I mean, even besides just wanting to go on a vacation, I've had to take days off from work for various, unexciting reasons (family stuff comes up, medical stuff, important event) and right now I don't even have that option. So I'm not really asking for anything that any non-sex worker would be granted, or that most people in my position would be granted (also, my boyfriend hasn't made any complaints... I mentioned it to him and he said he imagined she'd probably want to take a vacation during the summer so he didn't see why it would be a problem, I'm the one who's bothered by it).

    Like I said I don't want to show up Monday and say "so, we need to talk" but I'm thinking right before she goes back to work I'll ask if we can draw up a contract outing everything so there is no confusion (which we should do anyway) and bring it up then. I just feel awkward about it because we briefly discussed the topic and I didn't say my true thoughts on it, but I don't feel like it's such a huge issue that is should be a deal-breaker for her, hopefully anyway.

    Thanks for the advice everyone. <3

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Don't say you don't have that option, you don't know, it wasn't discussed.

    Do what I suggested and bring up your BFs plans for holiday, and see how she reacts. If she says no you can drop it or not, but she should not hold it against you for being unsure what to ask for in your contract.

    Don't sweat it, don't get yourself worked up I'm sure she plans some of her time enough in advance that you can make plans too.

    Chill
    Take deep breath
    Relax...

    You don't even know her well enough to worry about it yet.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    If she's paying you cash under the table, then I sincerely doubt that she's going to want any evidence of the arrangement in the form of a contract.

    As someone who had domestic help for many years when my older children were babies, I can tell you that it was not uncommon for us to insist that their vacation days sync up with ours. We tried to show some flexibility, but the whole point in hiring home help is to have them there when we needed coverage. It defeats the purpose if their time off does not sync up with ours. What were we supposed to do with the kids if she took time off when we did not? Put them in some type of temporary daycare? That's the only real alternative since finding someone that you can trust and who can take a week out of their lives to watch your kids is unlikely. The whole point in having a nanny is so that your kids never see the inside of that type of place.

    Conversely, what would happen if we planned a vacation and our help was not planning to be off during that time? Pay her anyway to sit at our house and do nothing? If that were the case, she'd really be getting additional weeks of paid vacation since she wouldn't be doing what we hired her to do, yet she'd be getting paid. Force her to take unpaid time off? Take her with us so that she could earn her pay, which would force her to be away from home?

    Idk. I wish you luck as you work through this audrey, but if this is a deal-breaker for you then I would suggest that you bring it up at the outset. Truth be told, working as a nanny can't really be compared to an office job. A nanny essentially serves as a surrogate for the mother, which means that long hours and scheduling inflexibility often come with the turf.

    Good luck!

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    I agree that bringing up sooner is a good idea.

    Another solution is to offer a fill in babysitter for when you aren't available. You vet and introduce the casual sitter/s.

    I babysit occasionally for a couple of families. Friends from college are their regular carers but they introduce me for the casual days that come up.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    If she's paying you cash under the table, then I sincerely doubt that she's going to want any evidence of the arrangement in the form of a contract.
    She's not paying me with cash, that would be an absolute deal-breaker for me. The biggest plus for me in leaving sex work is having a job where is everything is on paper, where if I decide to rent a place, buy a car, whatever, I don't have to sit through another lecture of "you have no proof of income... you're the most irresponsible applicant we've ever had..." I absolutely would NOT take a job that does come with payslips that is paying in one day of work 50% of what I used to charge for an hour. She's very aware of this.


    Truth be told you really can't compare the vacation-days situation in the US with the way it is in this country. Maternity leave is a year here, many women take longer. I've never worked a job in the US where I was offered anything more than 2 weeks paid vacation, whereas 5 weeks is the norm here, with many high paying jobs giving you 6 weeks. So it's a lot of time we're talking about. When you're only talking about 2 weeks, and my parents always saved up those two weeks so that we could go on one long vacation a year, asking to split is different (and once again, what I am asking if not out of the norm here, so whatever the child care situation is in the US, it's not the same here. I doubt you paid your nanny's taxes in the US either). And perhaps it will never be an issue because we'll always have the same vacation times in mind, if she wants to take vacation during the summer in July but I want to go in June I'm not going to argue with her about something so trivial, but I feel like I at least need some days that I can take off if something I need to tend to comes up. Or I need to have an idea of when she is going to take a vacation so that I can plan accordingly and not find out, 'so in two weeks were gonna be gone for 3 weeks.' Cause what am I supposed to do with that? Just sit around for 3 weeks doing nothing?
    Quote Originally Posted by amberlly View Post
    I agree that bringing up sooner is a good idea.

    Another solution is to offer a fill in babysitter for when you aren't available. You vet and introduce the casual sitter/s.

    I babysit occasionally for a couple of families. Friends from college are their regular carers but they introduce me for the casual days that come up.
    I know she has a regular babysitter she's used for several months now, so that's an idea.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Audrey, you're going to have to talk with her. But before you do, you're going to need to know, in your own mind, which is more important to you; this great new job you just got, or this awesome trip you want to take with your bf. (even if you don't go this year, there is always next year)

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    ^honestly, picking my vacation days is more important to me-- it's not even just this trip, it's every trip. I know they took 4 weeks off this xmas, basically saved up all their vacation time for a trip, and that's not really something I want to do-- this weather is KILLING me and all that's getting me through these horrible freezing, cold, dark days (I'm from California) is thinking about being at the beach over the summer in the sunshine. The tax thing is also a major stressor for me and probably an additional reason why I'm not willing to budge, but I just feel like that was my fault for not knowing and it's too much of an issue to bring up now. Not to sound callous but there are lots of nanny jobs out there and I didn't really have a hard time finding this one, it was my second interview and I cancelled on 4 people because I wanted to just take it and that was after sending like 8 CVs out. So if it doesn't work out I feel pretty confident I'll find something else. Worst comes to worst if I stay with her for a few months and then have an additional reference I'm in a much better position to be applying for a new job. But I like her and I like her kids so I'm hoping she's open to working with me in some way around this issue, since I also don't like the idea of her kids becoming attached to me and then me taking off in a few months. She's said to my several times that as long as they're happy she really doesn't care, so hopefully if I do well in the next couple weeks she'll be open to working with me in some way on this issue, even if doesn't come down to a 50/50 split.

    I know some people may not agree with me but my issue right now is really thinking up a good way to discuss this with her and when a good time would be, not whether or not I should bring it up.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    This sounds like a deal breaker. Best to bring it up sooner rather than later then. Tuesday? Allow a day to settle in and feel each other out?

    That way it gets the issue on the table and you can determine if there's flexibility on the employer's end.

    If things can't be worked out you'll both be minimally invested and can move on.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Audrey, the fact that you have 5 weeks instead of 2 doesn't make dealing with the coverage misalignment any less problematic. If anything, it makes things worse. Even if you split 60%/40%, she'd have two weeks where she'd need to find alternative coverage, at additional cost and headaches, and two other weeks where she'd have to do one of the following: (1) pay you for nothing; (2) take you with her on vacation; or (3) make you take the time off unpaid.

    Now I'm not trying to talk you out of having the conversation with her as this is clearly important to you. But I would suggest that you talk to her about it right away. If this is going to be a deal breaker for both of you, and I'm guessing it very well may be for her, it would probably be better to find that out now.

    One thought as you approach this is whether you could ask her to spread her vacation time out a bit more rather than proposing something that would create the coverage misalignment. Perhaps she could take 3 weeks around Christmas and 2 in the summer rather than taking almost all of her vacation in one shot? Idk, but I suspect that a solution that involves working collaboratively to plan time off might be more palatable for her than the thought of dealing with these scheduling issues. Just a thought.

    In any event, good luck and please keep us updated!

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Audrey, the fact that you have 5 weeks instead of 2 doesn't make dealing with the coverage misalignment any less problematic. If anything, it makes things worse. Even if you split 60%/40%, she'd have two weeks where she'd need to find alternative coverage, at additional cost and headaches, and two other weeks where she'd have to do one of the following: (1) pay you for nothing; (2) take you with her on vacation; or (3) make you take the time off unpaid.
    No, two weeks of her vacation days are on my schedule and 3 weeks are on her schedule? I don't know why on Earth she would go to work during those two weeks, since she'd just end up using her two weeks later and be gone and have to pay me for that time anyway? Maybe I'm not being clear about what I'm asking because I'm a bit confused by your response.

    Anyway, my first day with her was a bit rough. Her kids are difficult to say the least, she has not done a great job of socializing them over the past year-- it seems they have basically been stuck in the apartment with her, alone, as they scream bloody murder when even their father picks them up (they only want to be around her). I told her on the first day we should do 15 minutes of her going into her bedroom each hour where I would be alone with them, I was hoping to do a half day but after an hour could see that was not going to be an option. Oh my lord... I tried everything, walking around the room, cuddling with them, singing to them, putting the TV on, every toy in the room and they got so upset they were burning hot like with a fever from literally screaming their lungs out for 15 minutes. She admitted to me at the end of the day they've been kicked out of every daycare anytime she takes them to thus far as they just caaaaannot be away from her and just cry the whole time. I've dealt with separation anxiety before with children, but this is to a really extreme level. They cried for at least half of the day I was there. So, really having second thoughts on keeping this job anyway, and I definitely need to make up my mind as it's going to take a really long break-in period for her to get any nanny to settle them down, so I don't want to leave her high and dry before she goes back to work. They are adorable and when they're not crying they're really sweet, but having two screaming babies crying in your ear for hours on end is not an easy day to say the least... I'm going to finish the week and hope for an improvement and do some research into what I can do to help the situation.

    I really, really wanted to nanny for older children, like 7-10, because I have always enjoyed being around older children more, but no one wants nannies unless you're willing to be a nanny/housekeeper (which I am not) for kids that age except in the evenings, obviously since they're in school, and I gave up sex work to have a normal schedule.
    Last edited by audrey_k; 01-12-2015 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Oh goodness...your day sounds like it was an absolute nightmare! I wouldn't have lasted ten minutes there - I would've had a panic attack (hello, misophonia) and left the building...

    Is there any way you could dance once a week and update your resume by finding a volunteer position / internship related to your field? I know you're hella burned out, so I feel terrible for even suggesting that. When I went from sex work to straight work, my biggest issue was not the decrease in money, but the scheduling restrictions. So I totally feel you on this one.

    And I know this isn't helpful, but I'm still getting the sense that London doesn't seem like a great long-term match for you (weather- and work-wise). That said, you seem very determined to be there and stay there, so I'll stop bringing this up. And anyway, we probably get that sense mostly because you come here to vent and don't talk as much about the things you love about living there.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Having raised 4 siblings, and my own child, I would recommend she leave when you get there. They need to learn they can depend on you also. They have learned in the past that throwing a tantrum gets them what they want.

    I will bet she picked them up every time they fussed.

    Sometimes you just have to let a child cry it out and get over it. 15 minutes at a time just lets them think crying brought her back. Have her leave, and try to stay gone until you call her, the kids will quiet on their own, or cry until they fall asleep. If the latter, she can return while they are sleeping and let them wake on their own. I have done this before, and it is best to get it over with ASAP so the kids can get on with a normal life.

    Don't give it up yet, these kids abviously need your help.

    Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. This can be traumatic for you and mum too so you need to discuss and make sure you have a set game plan. It may not work the 1st day, but the kids WILL adapt.

    I just changed my notifications so I can get back to you quicker if you need advice.
    Last edited by Unkle Fuzzy; 01-12-2015 at 03:37 PM. Reason: changed notifications.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Yikes, how old are the kids? I agree with having her leave the house for at least part of the time, or the kids are just not going to adjust to being without mommy. Do you have a lot of experience with kids? This sounds like they are going to need A LOT of help breaking the extreme mommy attachment, which is hard enough to do with your own kids let alone another persons. It can be done, you just have to basically do it "cold turkey". Mommy leaves, that's it. They will adjust but not without a lot of screaming and crying at first. If you stick it out you could really be doing these kids a huge favor.

    About the vacation, what Rick said makes sense to me. The vacation time seems like it would have to be on the same weeks for both of you, or else she will have to find someone else to watch the kids when you are on your vacation time and that will be very hard for her to do.

    One of the biggest plus sides to adult work - never having to ask someone to take a day off!
    xoxo ~ Sarah




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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    I'd recommend giving it least two weeks where show how helpful you are and then ask about vacation. I say it speaking from an employer perspective ( handled multiple contractors this year ). There's always a period of " getting to know " the person.
    I'd give it time to settle before bringing up a change.
    Once established you can ask tactfully too ... " I know planning ahead is always what's most convenient " ect.... Then ask.

    Man .. Day 1 sounds rough.
    Last edited by carmen_b; 01-13-2015 at 02:07 AM.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Audrey,
    Good morning and good luck on day 2. Just remember, "They can smell your fear"

    Have a great day.

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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    You aren't an "adult worker" anymore sooo you pretty much just signed away your freedom with this one. That's the beauty & fun that comes with having a normal job, which is just one huge reason I refuse to have one. If I were you I'd just either go back into adult work where you can have your freedom or just look for something else bc if you are already unhappy with the fact you can't have a "beach day" you aren't going to last long with this family. This might sound harsh but it's the truth of the "vanilla" world.
    "Alot of people are afraid to say what they want, that's why they don't get what they want"~ Madonna




    "Respect is a dying art"

    "Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box"


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    Default Re: arguing with my employer about vacation days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unkle Fuzzy View Post
    Having raised 4 siblings, and my own child, I would recommend she leave when you get there. They need to learn they can depend on you also. They have learned in the past that throwing a tantrum gets them what they want.

    I will bet she picked them up every time they fussed.

    Sometimes you just have to let a child cry it out and get over it. 15 minutes at a time just lets them think crying brought her back. Have her leave, and try to stay gone until you call her, the kids will quiet on their own, or cry until they fall asleep. If the latter, she can return while they are sleeping and let them wake on their own. I have done this before, and it is best to get it over with ASAP so the kids can get on with a normal life.

    Don't give it up yet, these kids abviously need your help.

    Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. This can be traumatic for you and mum too so you need to discuss and make sure you have a set game plan. It may not work the 1st day, but the kids WILL adapt.

    I just changed my notifications so I can get back to you quicker if you need advice.
    Day two was much better, we were able to do a couple half hours of just me and them and they were fine, just kept them reeeeeally occupied. It was a major improvement from Monday, I felt like going home and crying after that long day of crying and a part of me was thinking "am I just shit at this?" even though no caretaker has managed to win them over thus far. But they were excited to see me when I got there this morning so it looks like I'm making headway.

    God though, the days just go by SO slow. Just trying to come up with a list of places we can go during the day because playing indoors, 3 minutes feels like 3 hrs.

    @Charlie-- if it wasn't for my bf I would consider moving outside of London, I wouldn't want to retun to the U.S. but I would go somewhere with a lower cost of living and clubs that I can stand (I would have to commit to 3 nights in London and I honestly just hate the clubs here, it's such a high stress, negative environment). But for my bf's industry he really has to be in London, the financial district is in London. We've talked about relocating to the U.S. where he would have more option of locations, but that's a conversation for down the line since we would have to be married for him to move. It's not great here but it's OK and I love my bf and don't want to leave him, and before I hear "well if he loves you then he would..." he paid for 95% of the expenses so I can work a part time job, do volunteer work and focus on applying to graduate school, I would say money has been my #1 stressor since I got here and I don't really worry about it now that we're together. There are a lot of things I love about London, but SW is more my place to vent. Also, I think we need a more positive thread in "Ladies Section" like "great things that happened to you" because it's all pretty negative! But I guess thats the nature of a support board.

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