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Thread: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

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    Default The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    The six-year-old bull market is boosting the ranks of newly-minted millionaires. Fidelity Investments reports that the number of workers with $1 million or more in a 401(k) retirement account has more than doubled over the past two years. Granted, those 72,379 accounts represent a small fraction of savers, but the growth has been big: Two years ago, Fidelity, one of the largest 401(k) plan providers, managing some 13 million accounts, reported only 34,920 one-million-dollar-plus balances.

    Read more:

    http://time.com/money/3700005/401k-m...id=yahoo_money

    This shows that you really can become well off, just by putting aside money every year into a mutual fund.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    I would comment that 72,000 out of 13 million is something on the order of 1/2 of a percent. It's certainly no secret that the 'top 1% earners' have done very well over the last few years. And big paychecks equals the ability to make big 401k contributions !!! However, the assertion that a bull market is responsible, as opposed to higher paychecks allowing higher 401k contributions, is unsubstantiated.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    A. It depends what kind of fund you put your money into. Generally the Index funds have the best results when measured over 10 , 20 and 30 years.

    B. Yes, the recent bull market ( since Spring 2009 ) has increased asset values but see "A" supra.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I would comment that 72,000 out of 13 million is something on the order of 1/2 of a percent. It's certainly no secret that the 'top 1% earners' have done very well over the last few years. And big paychecks equals the ability to make big 401k contributions !!! However, the assertion that a bull market is responsible, as opposed to higher paychecks allowing higher 401k contributions, is unsubstantiated.
    The maximum amount anyone can contribute to their 401k plan per year is $18,000, plus an additional $6,000 if you're over 50, regardless of how high your paycheck is. The people with million dollar accounts most likely did it by making regular contributions year after year.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    In any case...I've been neglecting my 401k the last couple years thinking I'll put it off until I hit 30 but this got me reconsidering and I'm going to start deferring again. So thanks
    Last edited by lynn2009; 02-11-2015 at 06:05 PM.
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I would comment that 72,000 out of 13 million is something on the order of 1/2 of a percent. It's certainly no secret that the 'top 1% earners' have done very well over the last few years. And big paychecks equals the ability to make big 401k contributions !!! However, the assertion that a bull market is responsible, as opposed to higher paychecks allowing higher 401k contributions, is unsubstantiated.
    Not entirely true Mel. If anything, the 401K arena is a more level playing field for the "lower 99%" in that :
    1) There is a maximum on combined total employee contributions, and 401K employer match. ($52K for 2014)
    2) There is a $260K income cap in place (2014 figure) for calculating the employer match.

    Lets say company has a 100% match for employee contributions, up to 6% of their income. So, an employee making 100K would get a 6K match, assuming he/she contributed at least $6K. CEO Warbucks may have a salary of $2M, but he can only have $260K of the $2M considered for calculating his match.

    In addition to above mentioned constraints, there are conditions imposed about having an equal number of "highly compensated participants" (defined as those making more than $120K), and those employees making less. I don't know exactly what those conditions are, nor the consequences of having participants too top heavy. Perhaps Eric, Rick, or Zofia could shed some light on this....
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The six-year-old bull market is boosting the ranks of newly-minted millionaires. Fidelity Investments reports that the number of workers with $1 million or more in a 401(k) retirement account has more than doubled over the past two years. Granted, those 72,379 accounts represent a small fraction of savers, but the growth has been big: Two years ago, Fidelity, one of the largest 401(k) plan providers, managing some 13 million accounts, reported only 34,920 one-million-dollar-plus balances.

    Read more:

    http://time.com/money/3700005/401k-m...id=yahoo_money

    This shows that you really can become well off, just by putting aside money every year into a mutual fund.
    Good link there, eagle. I'd say that its more than the bull market, per se, that has produced many more 401K millionaires since 2012. Its' the fact that there are 2 more years of the compounding effect of additional contributions/matches on top of the bull market that has added on.

    I'd be willing to wager that a vast majority of the 401K millionaires have been fortunate enough to be with the same "generous" (one that matches employee contributions, 49% of companies don't have any match) company for 2 decades, or more of consistent contributions/employer matches. It would be interesting to know the average amount of time the 401K millionaires took to reach this milestone. I would suspect that most, if not all, had employer matches.

    Lastly, good for lynn2009 for revisiting her 401K contributions. Being that you are under 30, you have many more years of compounding value potential than a lot of people who start late.
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by lynn2009 View Post
    In any case...I've been neglecting my 401k the last couple years thinking I'll put it off until I hit 30 but this got me reconsidering and I'm going to start deferring again. So thanks
    That's great that you're thinking about the future now. With the tax deduction and employer contributions, you can put away a decent amount of money each year without taking too big of a hit on your paycheck. After a while, you probably won't even notice the difference.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Agreed that a 401k plan with 'employer match' contributions essentially amounts to 'free money'. Also, no denying that raising the top tax bracket on ordinary income from 33 to 36%, that raising the top tax bracket on capital gains earnings from 15 to 20%, and creating a new 3.8% ACA Medicare 'surtax' on capital gains earnings, provide an increased tax 'advantage' for 401k contributions made by the 'rich'.

    Lets say company has a 100% match for employee contributions, up to 6% of their income. So, an employee making 100K would get a 6K match, assuming he/she contributed at least $6K. CEO Warbucks may have a salary of $2M, but he can only have $260K of the $2M considered for calculating his match.
    Yes but CEO Warbucks can add $54,000 in contributions to his 401k balance every year. In comparison, even a very optimistic 10% return on a $500k pre-existing 401k balance would add ~$50k.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    How soon we forget ....

    "Recent research finds 401(k)-style defined contribution plans have lost their shine. IRAs and 401(k) plans lost a combined $2.8 trillion, or 47% of their value, between September 2007 and December 2008, the height of the economic recession." http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/08/opinio...er-retirement/

    Fidelity is the company the employer chooses to manage their 401k. Which means the customer for Fidelity is the employer. The employer determines which investment vehicles (mutal funds, stocks, accounts, etc) are within the 401k. That limits your options which in turn limits your possibility for growth and increases your chance for loss. Not all 401ks are made equal either.
    Every 401k is different based on your company and position within the company. CEOs and executives have a completely different 401k than the average line employee. Which means they have a broader range of choices with their 401k. Which increases their chances of growth. That is not to mention the stock option bonuses that are put into 401ks.

    Back to the OPs article.... Out of 13 million accounts there are 72,379 that have a balance of over a million ... that is less than 1% lol
    Yet Fidelity has record profits. To me it just shows who Fidelity really works for.
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    ^^^ Just because someone hasn't reached $1 million in their 401k plan doesn't mean they haven't done well. People who have been contributing into stock funds over the long term have done well, especially over the past 5 - 6 years, even if they haven't reached $1 million. 401k plans are one of the best ways for middle class people to accumulate wealth over time. It's true that some fund managers are better than others. Vanguard has lower fees than Fidelity.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Yes but CEO Warbucks can add $54,000 in contributions to his 401k balance every year. In comparison, even a very optimistic 10% return on a $500k pre-existing 401k balance would add ~$50k.
    If you're under 50, the most you can contribute to your 401k is $18,000. If you're over 50, you can contribute an additional $6,000.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    [QUOTE=Melonie;2726003



    Yes but CEO Warbucks can add $54,000 in contributions to his 401k balance every year. In comparison, even a very optimistic 10% return on a $500k pre-existing 401k balance would add ~$50k.[/QUOTE]

    Where did you get the $54K figure from ? The max combined 401K limit is $53K for 2015.($52K 2014 limit) In my hypothetical example, (using 2014 limits) the max company match for CEO Warbucks would be $15,600 (6% of $260K limit) plus $23K contribution (assuming 50 or older) for a grand total of $38600.
    Silly me , CEO probably has a plan written just for him to assure he'd get the statutory max. Yet, it isn't too much of a stretch to picture a 50-something "H.I.C.E." contributing the 2014 max of $23K. Assuming he/she makes $150K, and has the company match of 6% of income, a company match of $9K would yield $32K total. While not equal to Warbucks $52K, you'll have to admit that the 401K annual total isn't nearly as lopsided as the ~ 13 fold difference in annual salary between CEO and line employee. I personally know many of the "H.I.C.E." crowd who are 401K millionaires, or nearly so.
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    People who have been contributing into stock funds over the long term have done well, especially over the past 5 - 6 years
    True on the surface, if one doesn't count ...

    - taking a ~40%+ 'loss' in principal value during the 2008 crash ( which offset the next ~5 years worth of gains to make good those losses )

    - measuring how 'well' one is doing on the basis of constant US dollars ( which in reality were steadily losing 'purchasing power' )


    While not equal to Warbucks $52K, you'll have to admit that the 401K annual total isn't nearly as lopsided as the ~ 13 fold difference in annual salary between CEO and line employee. I personally know many of the "H.I.C.E." crowd who are 401K millionaires, or nearly so.
    So do I !!! As I mentioned earlier, the IRA / 401k business for 'high' earners has gained a lot of additional appeal since higher income tax rates, higher capital gains tax rates, and the new ACA medicare 'surtax' have increased the net tax advantage of IRA / 401k contribution tax deferrals. However, 'regular' American earners do not share the same net tax advantage since they aren't subject to the same increased tax rates nor the new ACA medicare 'surtax'. And indeed there is a niche market for consultants to advise corporations on ways to amend their 401k plans to take 'maximum advantage' of statutory limitations ... which obviously primarily benefits the HICE crowd.

    But one thing which both high and average earning IRA / 401k contributors do share equally is a future risk that the 'rules' will be changed for these programs. On more than one occasion, a 'trial balloon' has been floated to forcibly convert IRA / 401k asset holdings into 100% US treasury bonds ... which certainly 'spooked' a couple of my rich acquaintances who have substantial 401k assets.
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-13-2015 at 04:33 AM.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Just to be clear, for current 401K rules, an income above $120K would be considered "HICE". (Highly Compensated Employees). The ones I speak of (401K millionaires that I know of) are more in this (120K qualifying cutoff) realm than the 7-figure "Warbucks" category. True it took over 20 years to get there, but it can be done by some of the "Bottom 99%ers".
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    If anyone invest properly after 20 years they should have reached a million...

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    If anyone invest properly after 20 years they should have reached a million
    ^^ that is true enough, providing that the person's earnings are in the ballpark of $50k per year AFTER TAX, that the person avoids big debt and big consumer expenditures during those 20 years, etc.

    It's certainly possible to pocket above average earnings ... but this typically involves the assumption of significant loss risk. Remember that, under ZIRP, the 100% 'safe' earnings on $1 million worth of assets has now become something like $2,500 per year ( = 1/4% ) !!!

    And, as alluded to earlier, a key question when considering tax deferred IRA's / 401k's is what are you potentially giving up 20-30-40 years down the road in order to defer X dollars worth of taxes today ?

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^ that is true enough, providing that the person's earnings are in the ballpark of $50k per year AFTER TAX, that the person avoids big debt and big consumer expenditures during those 20 years, etc.

    It's certainly possible to pocket above average earnings ... but this typically involves the assumption of significant loss risk. Remember that, under ZIRP, the 100% 'safe' earnings on $1 million worth of assets has now become something like $2,500 per year ( = 1/4% ) !!!

    And, as alluded to earlier, a key question when considering tax deferred IRA's / 401k's is what are you potentially giving up 20-30-40 years down the road in order to defer X dollars worth of taxes today ?
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    My point in this is to a devil's advocate.

    Fidelity is thrown about this forum so much, one might think someone works for them around here.

    You can loose money with Fidelity. If you dont understand the markets it is much easier for these companies to take advantage of people. The numbers in 2008 show that they did. Managing my own 401k at the time, I didnt loose money.

    Which is why I always encourage people to gain some financial knowledge before jumping into markets. Read books, websites, etc do not take anyone's word above research.
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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    True on the surface, if one doesn't count ...

    - taking a ~40%+ 'loss' in principal value during the 2008 crash ( which offset the next ~5 years worth of gains to make good those losses )
    People who have been contributing on a regular basis have done very well. Not only have they recovered from their 40% loss in 2008 with the money they contributed before the crash, they have also made very big gains on everything they've invested over the following 5 - 6 years. What they invested in 2009 has more than doubled.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    - measuring how 'well' one is doing on the basis of constant US dollars ( which in reality were steadily losing 'purchasing power' )
    You're contradicting another statement you made when discussing gold, where you said the dollar has increased in value over the past few years. Which is it?

    https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/sh...=1#post2707501

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Lacking any objective 'yardstick', it's equally accurate to claim that the US dollar has increased in 'value' over the past few years
    Last edited by eagle2; 02-15-2015 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    My point in this is to a devil's advocate.

    Fidelity is thrown about this forum so much, one might think someone works for them around here.

    You can loose money with Fidelity. If you dont understand the markets it is much easier for these companies to take advantage of people. The numbers in 2008 show that they did. Managing my own 401k at the time, I didnt loose money.
    It's true you can lose money with Fidelity or any other investment, but in general, over the long term stocks have done better than most other asset classes. I don't use Fidelity myself. I use Vanguard, because of their low fees, and T Rowe Price, because their funds seem to perform above average. For money that you expect you will need sometime in the near future, stocks probably aren't the best investment choice. If you're saving for retirement, and aren't expected to need the money for another 20 or 30 years, stocks are probably the best place to put your money. As you get closer to the time you expect you will need the money, it's probably a good choice to start moving your money to less risky investments or savings accounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    Which is why I always encourage people to gain some financial knowledge before jumping into markets. Read books, websites, etc do not take anyone's word above research.
    I agree.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    The answer, of course, is that US dollar 'purchasing power' has varied significantly at different times. The US dollar index fell to extremely low 'purchasing power' levels immediately post-Lehman ... but has now risen to 'record' high levels ( in terms of the past decade, anyhow)



    Arguably, the recent trend change in US dollar 'purchasing power' was at least partially linked to the US Fed's announced end of QE money printing last fall.

    It should be pointed out that the US dollar index is a relative measure ... which compares the relative 'strength' of US dollars against the strength of other major world currencies.

    As to attempting to accurately measure ACTUAL increases or decreases in the US dollar's 'value' / purchasing power, that's a much more difficult task. One method is the infamous 'Big Mac Index' ... see .

    Another method is to attempt to reference changes in the prices of global market commodities. However, this is increasingly problematic ... given that global commodity market prices have become increasingly subject to 'financial engineering' versus simple supply and demand forces.
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-16-2015 at 08:09 AM.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Is the "401k" your superannuation?
    If so, My hubby is 44 and has $2.7M in his.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    ^^^ partially. My understanding is that 'superannuation' is an account which is contributed to by the gov't, the worker, and the employer. In the USA, the gov't portion remains separate ( Social Security ).

    Over the years, I have probably already been required to pay over $250,000 in Social Security taxes. In exchange, I have received zero 'cash value' for my payments, and also have no guarantee that I will actually receive Social Security payouts when I finally reach legal 'retirement' age.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-07-2015 at 03:07 AM.

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    Default Re: The Number of 401(k) Millionaires Has Doubled. (for Fidelity)

    Come come Melonie. Nobody can read a balance sheet better than you. Or look at basic actuarial facts. Or count the number of retiring "baby boomers " against the number of new workers entering the U.S. work force. At the risk of being a bit ( God help me ! ) "political" those that want to see the U.S. become more like European social democracies ( Paul Krugman et. al ) should have been more careful what they wished for. We're well on our way to national bankruptcy. Social Security ? I'm not counting on seeing a dime and I KNOW that you waved it off a LONG time ago. Bought any gold lately ? lol.

    I'm being alarmist ? Hysterical ? I'm sorry but all you have to do is add up future obligations for Federal , state and local pensions AND Medicare ; AND Medicaid ; AND local , state and Federal health care AND Social Security and then look at future revenues EVEN WITH massive tax increases and/or average economic growth of about 3.5 % per year. Forget the "color of your parachute ". More like what kind of carpeting do you want for your bunker ?

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