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Thread: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

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    Default Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    At Planet Fitness you will be expected to make room for declared trangendered male-to-female even though they have not made the transition (they still have a penis).

    It's a business that sells itself on being non-judgmental but Planet Fitness has allegedly revoked the membership of a woman for complaining.

    Yvette Cormier, a member at the Midland location, says she had no idea what that meant until a few days ago.

    "I was stunned and shocked. He looked like a man.. He did not look like a woman," says Cormier. Cormier is talking about a man who walked into the woman's locker room while she was getting undressed. She says she couldn't believe her eyes.

    "This is very unprofessional. This is very scary," continues Cormier.

    Not knowing why the man was in the women's locker room, Cormier says she immediately complained to the front desk and eventually to corporate offices.

    "They told me the same thing, that he was allowed in there because that's the sex he wants to be," says Cormier.

    Cormier says she understands that some men self-identify as women and some women self-identify as men but says this man looked like a man and that caught her off guard.

    Cormier lost her membership for violating the company's no judgement zone policy.

    Moving forward, Cormier says she isn't concerned with getting her membership back. Her concern now is to warn other women at this gym to make them aware of this policy, because she says planet fitness failed to warn her.

    The company told TV5 that Cormier's concerns about the policy regarding gender identity was inappropriate and disruptive by complaining to other members at the gym.

    Representatives with Planet Fitness issued this statement:

    "Planet Fitness is committed to creating a non-intimidating, welcoming environment for our members. Our gender identity non-discrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity.

    In expressing her concerns about the policy, the member in question exhibited behavior that club management deemed inappropriate and disruptive to other members, which is a violation of the membership agreement and as a result her membership was cancelled."




    http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/p...tity-complaint


    TORONTO - A convicted sexual predator who falsely claimed to be transgender and preyed on women at two Toronto shelters could be declared a dangerous offender this month.

    Christopher Hambrook — who claimed to be a transgender woman named Jessica — has attacked four vulnerable females between the ages of five and 53 in Montreal and Toronto over the past 12 years.

    Justice John McMahon will decide Feb. 26 whether to declare Hambrook a dangerous offender, which carries an indefinite prison sentence.
    The prosecution is asserting Hambrook, a former stripper and escort from Quebec, simply cannot control his deviant sexual urges and that locking him up indefinitely is the best way to protect the public.
    Hambrook, 37, pleaded guilty in February 2013 to two counts of sexual assault and one count of criminal harassment involving two women — a deaf and homeless Quebec woman and a Toronto survivor of domestic violence — while he was living at a Dundas St. W. shelter and the Fred Victor women’s shelter in January and February 2012.
    All of the victims’ names are covered by a publication ban.
    Psychiatric and court records portrayed Hambrook as “hypersexual” and a sexual predator.
    He couldn’t control his deviant urges, inside or outside of jail, sharing his sick sexual fantasies and irritating other inmates during a four-year prison sentence served in Quebec and Kingston.
    He told grandiose lies, saying he once had a relationship with socialite Paris Hilton, earned $350,000 as an exotic dancer and that his mom died in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
    A self-described “heart breaker,” Hambrook said he’s had more than 80 male sexual partners in his lifetime, including “johns” in his prostitute days and that other inmates “made advances to him rather than vice-versa,” court heard.
    After moving to Toronto in 2009, he boasted that he’d received more than 800 e-mails from old Montreal friends “begging him to come home” for sex and shopping sprees.
    His latest crimes revealed a continuing trend of exploiting the vulnerable — this time women living at shelters.
    The first victim, a deaf and homeless woman from Quebec, checked into the Fred Victor shelter on Jan. 8, 2012. Hambrook had been staying there as “Jessica” since Dec. 23, 2011. She was soon terrorized by Hambrook’s unwanted advances.
    Hambrook wrote notes to the woman in French and learned both were smokers. Then, his notes took a creepy turn.
    “He asked her if she preferred men and if she wanted a sex change. She started to feel uncomfortable around ‘Jessica’ and was nervous about her behaviour,” said Crown attorney Danielle Carbonneau, reading an agreed statement of facts when Hambrook entered his guilty plea in February 2013.
    Hambrook made several unwanted sexual advances toward the woman over the next two or three days. He tried to isolate her in various rooms and she kept rebuffing him as she felt he was stalking her, court heard.
    Hambrook stopped her once, grabbed her hand and placed it on his crotch. She yanked her hand away and said, “No.” Hambrook started talking about her breasts and invited her to touch his “fake breasts (he had none).” She became scared and had trouble sleeping as his room was across the hall.
    The next day while she was in the shower, she noticed he was peering through the gap between the door and its frame. Hambrook vanished as soon as he realized she spotted him, court heard.
    The second victim sought refuge at a Dundas St. W. shelter on Feb. 11, 2012, after suffering serious domestic abuse, court heard.
    She remained there two weeks. Hambrook — who told people he was a transgender woman — was admitted there at the same time and ended up being his victim’s roommate.
    Hambrook was sitting on a third-floor balcony, smoking a cigarette, when the victim went outside for a smoke. He invited her to sit beside him. When she did, he placed his hand on the bench so the woman would sit on it. She rose quickly, asking him what he was doing and he replied, “It’s a bum warmer. It’s also a boob warmer.” Troubled by his comments, she went inside.
    When the victim found Hambrook was one of her three roommates, she had trouble sleeping. On Feb. 12, she left the shelter, consumed some drugs and returned to sleep.
    Early on Feb. 13, she awoke to discover Hambrook standing behind her in his underwear, attempting to sexually assault her.
    The victim shouted at him, demanding to know what he was doing. Hambrook “simply covered his face with his hands, said “Oops!” and started giggling, according to Carbonneau.
    The woman reported the assault to police and Hambrook has been in custody since. His DNA was found on her nightwear.
    Shortly after his mother died in Montreal in February 2002, Hambrook committed the first of his sex crimes by sexually assaulted a family friend’s five-year-old daughter. While on bail waiting for courts to deal with charges laid for that crime, he targeted a 27-year-old mentally challenged woman, by sexually assaulting her in his home and forcing her to smoke a joint.
    Hambrook received two years in jail for each of those crimes, for a total of four years.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15...sick-deception
    “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.” - ECKHART TOLLE

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    The whole transgendered issue is out of hand. I get some want to be the other gender, they transition or at least live like the opposite sex. However if someone just thinks they are the opposite gender but doesn't live like it then nope they aren't. I would definitely complain if a person comes in to a locker and has a penis and looks like a man. They should be in a male locker not a female locker. That woman was right not Planet Fitness. We have to draw the line somewhere otherwise there will be more stories of people claiming it when they aren't.
    Last edited by Kellydancer; 03-06-2015 at 06:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I guess I don't get the controversy?

    in the case of planet fitness, the chica was upset about a club policy. there was nothing in the article that stated that the trans member was behaving inappropriately, the woman who complained simply objected to her presence based upon physical characteristics over which the trans member has no control. there are lots of clubs that set rigid gender roles/rules, I imagine the woman who complained won't have any trouble finding somewhere new to train. Props to PF for sticking with their corporate value system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    TORONTO - A convicted sexual predator who falsely claimed to be transgender and preyed on women at two Toronto shelters could be declared a dangerous offender this month.

    Christopher Hambrook — who claimed to be a transgender woman named Jessica — has attacked four vulnerable females between the ages of five and 53 in Montreal and Toronto over the past 12 years.
    I'm not sure what this story has to do with gender identity. Hambrook is a criminal who has a long history of assault. gender identity is not the issue here, the fact that he played the justice system for so long is the issue. He would be a rapist whether he called himself Christopher or Jessica, gender identity has no relevance in his propensity for violence.

    I grew up in Toronto and I can tell you that TO cops do not take sexual assault seriously. At one university gathering not too long ago dealing with campus safety, one of the cops told the female students not to dress like sluts. Seriously. A few years before that the TPS (Toronto Police 'Service') was successfully sued for using women as bait when they were trying to catch a serial rapist. Honestly I think they're too busy stopping peeps for walking/driving while Black to focus on sexually-based offenses. Then comes the woefully low sentencing guidelines for perpetrators of sexual assault.

    So yeah, I'm not sure how either situation discussed above is relevant to trans identity or acceptance (or lack thereof). Statistically trans individuals are far more likely to be the victims of crimes rather than the perpetrators, so what we have above are two anecdotes. One of an irate woman who would clearly be more comfortable somewhere else, and the other another episode in a long running saga of judicial ineptitude. Two years in prison for assaulting a 5 year old... THAT is the real outrage here.

    Trans people are not inherently dangerous or lascivious. They are human beings who happened to be born into a body that doesn't match their cranial wiring. That's all, there's really nothing to fear.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I think there should be a gender neutral changing room/bathroom to accommodate people in transition NOT give over the women's changing room. Once they've transitioned it's a different story. The point of the second incident is showing how any dirtbag can say he's trans and gain access to the intimate spaces outlined in the article. If the guy has not changed over as this guy was still a guy in every way, and he doesn't have to prove through a doctor that he's trans, and be visually changed, then we're opening up potential risk we don't have to. Would anyone like to have a rando from the audience walk into the ladies room/dressing room at work because he says he's trans? Do you want him walking into the locker room with your daughter in a state of undress? How about we keep OUR space until they have actually transitioned not at the point of declaration that he "feels" like a woman.
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I would think it was odd if I saw what looked like a man in the locker room. Post op or if they look feminine then that's different and would be more acceptable. Like if I saw Bruce Jenner in the locker room I'd be like WTF?!?
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    I think there should be a gender neutral changing room/bathroom to accommodate people in transition NOT give over the women's changing room. Once they've transitioned it's a different story. The point of the second incident is showing how any dirtbag can say he's trans and gain access to the intimate spaces outlined in the article. If the guy has not changed over as this guy was still a guy in every way, and he doesn't have to prove through a doctor that he's trans, and be visually changed, then we're opening up potential risk we don't have to. Would anyone like to have a rando from the audience walk into the ladies room/dressing room at work because he says he's trans? Do you want him walking into the locker room with your daughter in a state of undress? How about we keep OUR space until they have actually transitioned not at the point of declaration that he "feels" like a woman.
    I'd be for a gender neutral dressing room. I agree about a random guy at work and I was thinking about that. If a guy came into a dressing room when I was dancing I would be afraid. My first thought wouldn't be he was trans, rather he wanted to see dancers.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    y'all are aware of how much transition surgery costs, right?

    spend 10s of thousands of dollars and years of forced therapy and then we'll accept you, that's pretty much what your standards come down to in absence of spaces/avenues of acceptance that are specifically designed for trans peeps (which in most venues don't exist- sw included btw)

    tbh I'm gonna bail on this thread before I say something that warrants an infraction

    peace and $$$ y'all

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    The point of the second incident is showing how any dirtbag can say he's trans and gain access to the intimate spaces outlined in the article. If the guy has not changed over as this guy was still a guy in every way, and he doesn't have to prove through a doctor that he's trans, and be visually changed, then we're opening up potential risk we don't have to.
    This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP.

    The way I interpreted when the woman complained was because the guy looked like a man, not a feminine lady with a male organ, or looking in transition, but just a straight up dude who might be playing the trans card just to get access to a women's locker room.

    I've noticed that trans issues have become popular nowadays, and in a way that is a good thing for them. For example if what I remember is correct, trans people are diagnosed as having a legit mental disorder, and having that on paper can really screw up a lot of things for them. Obtaining certain jobs and adopting children for instance. So now this new interest in their struggles will raise awareness to the general public and help reduce some of the stigma.

    However with this rise in popularity there will always be sociopaths who will use this to get away with stuff. Like a get out of jail free card. In a way it's a double edged sword, and it is unfortunate.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    That's how I took it too. Reminds ms of a South Park episode where Cartman claimed to be trans to get into the women's restroom. Those who truly believe they are a gender (and live like it) is one thing but a man looking like a man with a penis is a man.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    The thing is if there will be gender neutral changing rooms, restrooms, and other public places, those guys can be just at risk for harassment than cisgender(?) people, if not more. It's really tricky. It would be interesting to see how other countries that recognize a third (or more) genders handle these types of situation.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I work w/ a lot of trans people both MTF and FTM- surgery and hormone therapy can be a really long fucked up process full of uncooperative doctors and insurance companies, not to mention the expense. One thing I do notice though is a legal name change/ driver's license sex can be a much faster and easier process...

    However, even if we start carding people for their gender would we then have to discriminate based on sexual orientation- should lesbians be banned from women's locker rooms, or gay men from the men's bathroom? I think the real issue is sexual assault...and the US is not very adept at handling that discussion to begin with. A rapist isn't going to care whether they follow a gym's policy or not.

    These articles make it seem like trans identity is a new clever rapist tool when in all actuality the rape and murder rate for trans people (especially people of color) is so sickeningly astronomical. Trans people are the ones who need to be protected from rapists and murderers. These articles are like putting a story about a gay man teaching kindergarten causing a fuss among the parents, alongside an article about a pedophile who raped young boys. They have nothing to do with each other and are offensive when linked.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    As the mother of a trans boy (ftm) I would like to point out that the OP was actually talking about trans women, not trans men. (imo)

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I guess the thing that would concern me is if a pre op transgender man is naked in the locker room do I really want my young child to see live penises?

    People do get naked in the locker room and sometimes young children are in there.

    I personally wouldn't care but if young female kids are in locker room then I would prefer post op only in women's locker room

    *hope this isn't offensive I'm just writing what comes to mind
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I should start by warning this is going to be long: and really if you can make it through , then you are a rock star in all ways and I love you forever no matter how you feel or think at the end:


    in reality? its push button issue for me BECAUSE I Myself am transgendered myself- and largely because there are sooooooooooooooooo many damn misconceptions and ignorance out there ( and not using that word in an insulting manner, being ill informed on something is a thing we ALL share as humans, however this is one topic area in which the ignorance comes from a taboo in most of western society and people rarely get taught anything and WORSE: Most people feel embarrassed or uncomfortable, or worry about being insulting if they ask questions. And to me, asking questions is vital to learning. so please if there is ANYTHING, ANYTHING anyone is curious about ask, Im insanely happy to answer anything and everything I can- no such thing as taboo or dumb questions at all. Id rather help teach or atleast broaden an understanding .


    just to clarify again : Trans-Male/men = Female to Male
    Trans- Female/woman = Male to Female

    To start, On the possibility of kids in the lockeroom I " personally" dont see the difference- mind you I was NOT raised with/around the north-american taboo of the body- much more wordly on that and as a parent myself have never shied away, and in that situation? I actually see a great opportunity to teach and educate: though most gyms Ive been to do NOT allow minors in the lockerooms at all but rather have built in daycare center rooms. I personally though welcome the ability to teach them about the body in a neutral/positive and or more open way, than having to answer questions of " whats that?" when they are seeing people being hacked up and so on in games/movies, even normal TV so thats just my spin.

    now AS a transwoman I do want to bring up a few things: The outside world, sadly is less safe for us than it is any cis male and or female regardless of ones orientation. the amount of beatings, murders, rape and so on within the trans community is sickening and staggering- and done purely because we are what we are, hell out here like 4 weeks ago there was a trans woman who got the shit beat out of her in a crowded bar with a ton of witnesses - simply for being different - and made worse is that until people packed a city council meeting to argue this case the law was purely taking it as an minor assault as opposed to a hate crime which, actually it very clearly was ( and no I would not have supported calling it that if the reasoning why she was attacked was different - regardless of what she was, Im NOT supportive of trying to hype situations like that)

    Now, MOST of us, and by that id say 19.5 out of 20 - in the early stages of transitioning, be it MtF ot FtM - will still use restrooms, lockerooms, and so on of the gender we most visibly resemble - There is a point however that this does change, regardless of having bottoms done or not ( which if fine for trans women, the vaginas they can make now are utterly - visually-indistinguishable from cis formed ones - However trans men usually CANT get any bottom work done, or at the best end up with decently looking fake testis, but a non functioning stump of a peen )
    With trans women? ONCE we start looking more female, carrying ourselves more feminine, body language etc, and more importantly start developing features? Its insanely dangerous for us MORE so those whom actually are blessed with the genetics to look more female naturally and passable from the start- the ones cursed with a very very broad, distinct male face/skull - will get crap abut being a sissy/crosdresser/drag queen a whole slew of other misconstrued terms- the passable ones? be they actual trans women and or " traps" get alot of aggression because they " fooled" a guy into getting turned on then he gets pissed and has to prove his case of the not-gays . This is again besides the general attacks and such again for simply not conforming to a specific role we already get.

    IF you havent, take peek at a thread I made here which is in the picture post, and remember that about half of the transwomen in there all still have their external plumbing , and some dont, some are still " functional" some are not etc etc- and remember that, yes while not all transpersons are this lucky genetically - there is a point most dont look like their birth gender at all, and how that forces changes in how they go about things publicaly. Now for a good example of a Trans male, I suggest looking up buck angel - and how amazing he looks.

    For trans women whom have been on hormones? There are a few things the public really isnt largely aware of: That " burst of raw strength" all men have? It's gone. Muscle mass softens, lengthens and the energy/chemical surges that give Men their physical surges actually totally vanishes usually within the first few months to year of taking hormones. Bone mass ALSO starts to decrease. When it comes to the peen? Again, on hormones - UNLESS they are taking something ontop of it ( which most dont unless they are in this sorta line of work we do here) - they dont work after a while, the different chemicals effectively castrates and or at least makes it all very difficult to get working.


    There also is the issue of orientation. granted yes the " t" in LBGT is for the trans community: but in this " one of these things is not like the others" game - transgender/sexuality is NOT an orientation like the others. Most that Im friends with and come across would classify as " straight/hetero" because they are attracted to the opposite gender than they identify as ( IE, a trans women attracted to men, a trans male attracted to females) I personally am Demi Pan - But that said just like with CIS persons, there are trans persons whom are bi- those whom can be called " gay" because of their attraction to the same gender they identify as and so on. THat said: this also raises the flag then about how you approach a CIS Lesbian woman in the womens locker room? or a gay CIS male in the mens? .. Okay yes you are right, vast vast majority of them are not going to act on anything and just be normal people - so what makes it any different if a trans person is in there? does that mean they are more or less likely to act out?
    " but a trans woman is still stronger and more aggressive like a male" : usually false since hormones, even supplements heavy in estrogen family chemicals - will start to diminish drive and alot of that strength - but yes there is a period when they dont. But on the same coin whats being said here is one of those blips in rational logic, IE: Some men like sports therefore all men like sports, some women freak out over bugs, therefore ALL women freak over bugs. " - with zero variables. Now, lets go back to having a lesbian in a women's locker room. And lets say shes quite large muscle tone wise - so already stronger than the average woman , lets also say she has a hormone disorder ( akin to say the wrestler chyna and a few others) where hormonally they ARE much more male in stature and mass, and in many cases in signals and such, basically " a male chemically/mass/strength/sexdrive with a vagina" is that any different or any safer than having a CIS male in there to start with?

    its not really a black and white sort of situation when you really do sit and think this over, and this spans all the gender lines and all the orientation lines, and many times those lines blur.


    lastly, I saw it mentioned on how easy it is to get your ID changed: I want to sight that doing so differs state to state: it can be easy, or it can be very very very very difficult and have different requirements. and I note changing your gender on your ID requires an amendment to a birth certificate which is held by the state you were born in, so if you were born in oh, mississippi, but live in california, you have to go through mississippi's requirements to change it, not Cali.

    in my case, I live in Washington Sate. To get a name change? like a 10$ application and a statement for a judge that im not doing it for reasons of fraud and they are happy. Gender change on the birth certificate and ID? again easy: though annoying: you just need a letter from a doctor and or a therapist, and or some other professional to verify that you identify and in their opinion function daily as whichever gender.

    problem is, I was not born in this state, and the state I AM from - to change your gender on the birth certificate and such you need letters from doctors AND therapists and more over you HAVE to have had full reassignment surgery ( some states dont require that, and will be happy with castration be it physical or chemical, and or just unable to reproduce/sire normally)
    snag is here... that surgery is very expensive, and not something covered because insurances consider that elective, despite the psychiatric and most medical professionals considering it corrective medical need. The medications, the hair removals, the possible need for small cosmetic things here and there just to be semi comfortable in my own skin is already astounding - and that surgery is insanely expensive and way out of any financial budgeting. There is also another issue of doctors in my case " iffy" on if I even could/should because I have a long long history of abdominal hernias

    so yeah in my case it MIGHT not happen for a few reasons. I ideally want it to happen, I mean granted it sorta is the selling point as a cam girl but over all, its a foreign object I utterly am disconnected from and detect as see no differently than any of you would see a boil, or a parasite latched onto you.

    the issue here is though? there really is no protection. If I got for whatever reason arrested ( thankfully Im not into anything or involved i things that would lead to that) they can see I have an hour glass figure, lack of body hair, eve my scent and pheromones are female, see my breasts , hear my voice ( which is soft and girly, but more over NATURAL) even by cis female standards, including annunciation, afflictions, mannerisms, facial expressions body language and vocabulary - again all female)

    - they look at my ID, Female, name, photo looks female, they see that ( M ) there because my home state is one of the slow to adapt ones - guess where by law I have to go? thats right, in a cell with a bung of men who are there for any number of reasons - and it scares the shit out of me , given that on THIS side of the state ( WA being one of if not THE most liberal/progressives states in the country) is nestled up against one which is very very very fundamentally right...so the population is not usually as forgiving. thats not too bad on itself, words are one thing. However Northern idaho, which Im only a few minutes away from is also one of the strongholds for the neo nazi movement, a rather aggressive/violent branch.

    lets talk about not feeling safe and being in real and very statistically high degree of incidents danger in any setting, even going outside - as opposed to perceived and conceptualized fears of danger in a controlled and very public setting with very little to no statistical levels of threat.





    so yea, imho, I detest the notion some " and again your looking at a very very very very very small minority of a few individuals out of hundreds of thousands in any population whom MAY or may not want to abuse a system, or make a big fuss amount something, or be up to no good. But thats also not gender or orientation based in reality- and really a almost non existent chance of actually happening to a wide degree.

    NO I personally don't think, from what I can gleam that one whom is by default still Cis male in all ways chemically and hormonally and physically - really in " need" of using a restroom or locker rooms however again to not paint a broad stroke here.. Im also going to say that there is a point where its not safe for us to be in the other either - despite staff patrolling locker rooms and so on.

    as is right now? you can be gay, or lesbian, or bi, or pan or a sexual or whatever pretty openly and without too to much of a fuss in most places.. hell look at the big political push button issues of same sex marriages, survivor benefits/rights parental rights and so on. Thats going someplace, thats a major major shift in our rather overly dogmatic western mentality , thats a big opening in seeing humans as humans.

    for the trans community? were are still taboo, not understood, nobody really spearheads big pushes to afford us even basic protection, not many real pushes to fund research on the topic. To many were still sub human, we suffer an " illness" be it physical or mental, and sexual deviants ( much like how being gay was largely seen in the 40's and 50's - seriously watch some of the educational shorts they showed kids back them about the " gay menace" and see how bad it was - the trans community is STILL there for the most part )
    YES some may have " developed" because of trauma and or abuse and such... but what little research has been done lately? showing many of us legitly are different...

    there MIGHT be some early suggestions that are currently being tested in the UK that some of these situations could be a result of being a chimera ( a combination of two or more different creatures. in mythology in biology it is found mostly in mammals when in a fetal state one twin consumes the other, however the DNA from the consumed twin continues to grow - much like a case in WA where a woman couldn't get benefits for her children because she failed a DNA test on all of them, and was even taken to court for fraud. Later was discovered the DNA from her blood samples, did NOT match the DNA of her uterus - which her reproductive systems were genetically that of " her sisters" - now what if in my case its similar? we dont know, because the willingness to study the issues at all is still one of hands off by large

    sorry about the small book. I'll shut up now, but again....if anyone does have any legit questions or curious about something, please feel free to ask - Even if I dont represent ALL the trans community? Im still an individual who lives this, and have since I can recall going back to when I was 5, or 6 ish and can at the very least open one aspect of a greater whole
    Last edited by Morrigan; 03-09-2015 at 09:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    i would think it was odd if i saw what looked like a man in the locker room. Post op or if they look feminine then that's different and would be more acceptable. Like if i saw bruce jenner in the locker room i'd be like wtf?!?
    Thank You!

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Quote Originally Posted by loveshooks View Post

    Trans people are not inherently dangerous or lascivious. They are human beings who happened to be born into a body that doesn't match their cranial wiring. That's all, there's really nothing to fear.
    I agree 100%. But there is certainly nothing to fear from people not wanting to see penis in a woman's locker room, either.

    You are a better moderator than I am, you don't have to worry about stifling your opinion here.
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I just want to say a HUGE thank you to Morrigan for weighing in. While not trans myself, I am hugely sensitive to what the trans community goes through because I struggled with gender identity for years before coming to grips with being cisfemale.

    Personally, I am of the opinion that "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck" it should be in the "duck" locker room. However, there comes a point in the transition phase where it may still look and walk "like a duck," but "sing like a canary" and it's no longer safe to group the "canary" with the "ducks."

    The problem with this article is that it doesn't clarify how the apparently trans individual "looked like a man." Being familiar with Midland, I know that the time to move to the female locker room comes MUCH sooner than is realistically possible to meet most peoples' opinion of "passable."
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Some colleges and universities are starting to come out with gender-neutral bathrooms, in addition to men's and women's restrooms.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5597362.html

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    I would LOVE to see more gender neutral areas.
    Exotic dancing is like any other job.
    If you work in an office, you wear dress shoes and a suit.
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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    At some point common sense has to take over. We have a family gym membership and my wife and little girls use the female locker rooms. If my gym ever adopted a policy of allowing grown men to enter the womens' locker room we'd be gone. My wife and princesses change and shower in that locker room and I don't even want to think about how I'd react if I actually saw a man try to enter that locker room while they were in there.

    There are just too many ways for devious men to abuse that type of policy. Now you can argue that he really feels like a woman on the inside, but how in the world can anyone verify something like that? How can a gym prevent sexual predators and other disingenuous perverts from abusing a "we are what we say we are" policy? The simple answer is that they can't.

    The reason that we send people with cocks and balls to one room and those with vaginas to another is that it is an objective way of ensuring the privacy and safety of the vast majority of participants. I have no problems with my gym making special accommodations for pre-op transgender folks who feel uncomfortable using the facilities designated for their plumbing. Indeed, it is both humane and may even make good business sense. But allowing men to roam female locker rooms, based solely upon their claims that they feel like women, is both ludicrous and a recipe for disaster IMO.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    The transphobia on this site is insane. Not everyone can afford to transition. Not everyone WANTS to transition. Invalidating someone's gender identity because you don't think they 'look right' is disgusting tbh. How would you like it if someone said they're taking away your woman card because you don't look like the right type of girl? Trans people are far, far more likely to become the victims of violence for using the proper restroom (AKA the one that matches their gender identity) than cis people are for being in the bathroom with someone who 'claims to be trans'. ffs

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    If that person hasn't even began to transition on the outside, I would assume he's a straight man wandering in the wrong bathroom. It's not transphobia though. Privacy is being talked about, not regular/censored events.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Quote Originally Posted by caramelDip View Post
    If that person hasn't even began to transition on the outside, I would assume he's a straight man wandering in the wrong bathroom. It's not transphobia though. Privacy is being talked about, not regular/censored events.
    Privacy is secondary to safety though. 50% of trans people will be violently harassed attempting to use facilities like locker rooms. What you assume someones gender to be has no baring on their right to use the proper facility. It takes years to transition, even without considering passability. At what point is it 'safe' to allow them to use the proper restroom? After they've began taking hormones? What about older trans folk? Modern medical transition is very new field. Hormones only result in 'high passability' when started early. When they've saved for and underwent multiple very expensive, very invasive medical procedure to look more passable? Someones genitals are really not your concern if you aren't sexually involved with them. If they do decide to get surgery what do they do when they now have breasts but still 'look like a man' and it's no longer safe for them to use either restroom without threat of violence? Either way, they were just as female before transition, you simply couldn't 'tell' by looking at them.

    Putting a 'women only' sign doesn't actually do anything to protect women. Basing who can use their gender's facilities on looks does however contribute to a worrying cissexist culture that poses a serious threat to the lives of trans people and gender-nonconforming women. Predators will still enter female spaces like they always have, by sneaking in and waiting for unsuspecting victim. Preventing transgender people from using the proper restroom is hardly the way to solve that.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Obviously we don't know the exact details of this case but honestly if I saw what I thought was a man (meaning he was tall, broad, short hair, masculine features, hairy, with a beard/stubble), I would be a little weirded out and ask what is going on. My first reaction wouldnt be "he must be trans", I'd think "what is a man doing in here?!" I don't really think that's transphobia tbh.

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    Default Re: Trans Men - Where Do Businesses Draw the Line

    Quote Originally Posted by AlicexEden View Post
    Putting a 'women only' sign doesn't actually do anything to protect women. Basing who can use their gender's facilities on looks does however contribute to a worrying cissexist culture that poses a serious threat to the lives of trans people and gender-nonconforming women. Predators will still enter female spaces like they always have, by sneaking in and waiting for unsuspecting victim. Preventing transgender people from using the proper restroom is hardly the way to solve that.
    This, 100%. Short of putting a guard outside the door to check each person's "woman card," a little triangular woman sign on the door is not going to stop predators. You can't argue "safety" when talking about what basically amounts to the honor system. Knowing firsthand what it's like in Midland, I CAN argue that no woman in that locker is in more danger than the trans individual just because she walked into it, than she is the moment she's outed as trans to that community.
    Exotic dancing is like any other job.
    If you work in an office, you wear dress shoes and a suit.
    If you work in a restaraunt, you wear skid resistant shoes and a uniform.
    If you work in a strip club, you wear 7" stilettos and lycra g-strings.

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