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Thread: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

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    Default Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    from

    (snip)Credit Tina Fineberg for The New York Times

    The Columbia report cataloged a series of errors at Rolling Stone, finding that the magazine could have avoided trouble with the article if certain basic “reporting pathways” had been followed. Written by Steve Coll, the Columbia journalism school’s dean; Sheila Coronel, the dean of academic affairs; and Derek Kravitz, a postgraduate research scholar at the university, the report, at nearly 13,000 words, is longer than the 9,000-word article, “A Rape on Campus.”

    After its publication last November, the article stoked a national conversation about sexual assault on college campuses and roiled the university.

    The police in Charlottesville, Va., said last month they had “exhausted all investigative leads” and found “no substantive basis” to support the article’s depiction of the assault. Jackie did not cooperate with the police and declined to be interviewed for the Columbia report. She also declined, through her lawyer, Palma Pustilnik, to be interviewed for this article. She is no longer in touch with some of the advocates who first brought her to the attention of Rolling Stone, said Emily Renda, a rape survivor working on sexual assault issues at the University of Virginia.

    In a statement responding to the report, the University of Virginia’s president, Teresa A. Sullivan, described the article as irresponsible journalism that “unjustly damaged the reputations of many innocent individuals and the University of Virginia.”

    Mr. Wenner said Will Dana, the magazine’s managing editor, and the editor of the article, Sean Woods, would keep their jobs.

    In an interview, Mr. Dana said he had reached many of the same conclusions as the Columbia report in his own efforts to examine the article, but he disagreed with the report’s assertion that the magazine had staked its reputation on the word of one source. “I think if you take a step back, our reputation rests on a lot more than this one story,” he said.

    Ms. Erdely first heard Jackie’s account in a phone conversation last July, the report said. Jackie told her she had been lured to a darkened room at a fraternity party in September 2012, and raped by seven men, the article said, led by her date for the evening, a lifeguard at the university’s aquatic center identified only as Drew. Ms. Erdely hung up the phone “sickened and shaken,” the report said.

    Despite some misgivings about the vividness of some of the details, which included a smashed glass coffee table and an assault with a beer bottle in the published account, Ms. Erdely interviewed Jackie seven more times between July and October of last year.

    The first misstep during the reporting process, the Columbia report said, was that Ms. Erdely did not seek to independently contact three of Jackie’s friends, who were quoted in the piece, using pseudonyms, expressing trepidation at the idea of Jackie telling the authorities that she had been assaulted. The quotes came from Jackie’s recollection of the conversation. Those friends later cast doubt on Jackie’s story in interviews with The Washington Post and denied saying the words Rolling Stone had attributed to them. The three told the report’s authors that they would have made the same denials to Rolling Stone if they had been contacted.(snip)

    (snip)The reporting errors by Ms. Erdely were compounded by insufficient scrutiny and skepticism from editors, the report said. And the fact-checking process relied heavily on four hours of conversations with Jackie.

    Ms. Erdely, a contributing editor at Rolling Stone who has also written for GQ and The New Yorker, declined to be interviewed for this article. She said in her apology that reading the report was “a brutal and humbling experience.” She also acknowledged that she did not do enough to verify Jackie’s account.

    Rolling Stone’s fundamental mistake, Mr. Dana said, was in suspending any skepticism about Jackie’s account because of the sensitivity of the issue. “We didn’t think through all the implications of the decisions that we made while reporting the story, and we never sort of allowed for the fact that maybe the story we were being told was not true,” he said. That was compounded by the fact that any reporting on any purported crime that has not been reported to the authorities is difficult, he said.

    “Ultimately, we were too deferential to our rape victim,” Mr. Woods, the article’s editor, said in the report. “We honored too many of her requests in our reporting. We should have been much tougher, and in not doing that, we maybe did her a disservice.”(snip)


    This obviously relates to a number of previous Lounge threads relating to alleged rape victims who were ultimately found to be 'lying'. Every time such cases receive major nationwide publicity, it arguably weakens the credibility of future rape victims. Also, such nationwide publicity emphasizes the fact that unproven rape accusations alone can cause immediate and 'irreversable' damage to both accused rapists, as well as to the 'venue' where the alleged rape was claimed to have occurred, even if it is subsequently determined that no actual rape took place.

    My obvious concern here is that the ongoing reduction in credibility of rape 'accusers' will work against future actual victims of rape !!! And this is likely to particularly be the case for exotic dancers, camgirls, escorts etc. - where their adult entertainment industry affiliation is likely to reduce credibility even further.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-06-2015 at 07:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    and this didn't take long ... from

    (snip)The fraternity at the center of a now-discredited Rolling Stone rape article says the story was defamatory and reckless and they are pursuing legal action against the magazine.

    Phi Kappa Psi said Monday in a statement that the article was viewed by millions, led to members being ostracized and there was vandalism of the fraternity house.(snip)

    (snip)The report said Rolling Stone's article may cast doubt on future accusations of rape. It also said the article damaged the reputation of the Phi Kappa Psi chapter at U.Va. and depicted the university administration as neglectful.

    Prior to the issuance of the journalism school's report, the fraternity called the Rolling Stone article defamatory and said it was exploring legal options. Neither the fraternity nor its lawyer would comment Sunday night.

    Dana said magazine officials are "committing ourselves to a series of recommendations about journalistic practices that are spelled out in the report."

    In her statement, U.Va. President Teresa A. Sullivan said the article hurt efforts to fight sexual violence, tarred the school's reputation, and falsely accused some students `'of heinous, criminal acts and falsely depicted others as indifferent to the suffering of their classmate." The story falsely depicted the university as callous toward sexual assault victims, reinforcing their reluctance to come forward, she said.(snip)


    This is arguably an outgrowth of de-facto precedents set during the Duke Lacrosse case etc. ... which acknowledge that, unlike other types of allegations / unproven charges, accusations of rape plus publication of such accusations can and do have immedlate negative effects on both the accused rapist(s), as well as upon the 'venue' where the alleged rape was claimed to have been allowed to take place, which cannot be 'erased' from the public consciousness, from the minds of prospective future employers, etc. - even if the accuser is later found to be 'lying'.

    Put another way, under this de-facto precedent, someone accused of rape charges - but later found to be innocent ( or not being found guilty at trial - which isn't exactly the same as being innocent ) now has legal 'standing' to sue the accuser for civil damages. In this particular case, the magazine exposed itself to such a civil damages lawsuit because it chose to report Jackie's accusations without adequate verification. Jackie has also exposed herself to similar civil damages lawsuits by her accusations having 'proved' to be bogus. Undoubtedly the fraternity chose to go after the magazine because it has far deeper 'pockets', as well as the potential for such a lawsuit to create additional publicity which further emphasizes the bogus rape report thus benefitting the fraternity and its members.

    However, this de-facto precedent is disturbing regarding its potential for future abuse. Imagine a case where an exotic dancer is in fact raped. She reports that rape to local police, names the alleged rapist, and the local DA decides to prosecute based mostly on 'she said, he said' evidence. However, at trial, the defense attorney paints a 'narrative' that the alleged rapist is in fact the 'victim' of an exotic dancer's 'pay for play' scheme gone bad - and the jury of retirees, civil servants and bible thumpers 'buys into' the defense attorney's 'narrative'.

    At this point, not only is the alleged rapist NOT found guilty, but the door is open for the accused rapist to sue the exotic dancer for civil damages resulting from the publication of the 'false' charges she made against him. If we're talking about an Ivy League college student, the existence / publication of rape charges could potentially result in that college student's future job opportunities thus annual earnings potential being reduced by $10k-20k-30k ( or whatever ) per year. Thus, assuming a 40 year career, the exotic dancer reporting rape charges might potentially face a $500,000 to $1,000,000 civil damages lawsuit as a result of bringing charges against the college student but the DA failing to obtain a conviction in court !!!

    Under this scenario, unless there is 'hard' ( video tape ) evidence of the rape being committed, it is arguable that an adult industry worker may now have far more to lose by reporting the fact that she was raped than she can 'afford'. It is also fairly probable that DA's may now decide not to prosecute in cases where an adult industry worker reports being raped, based on the reduced credibility of the accuser thus a low probability of the DA actually being able to obtain a court conviction in the absence of 'hard' ( video tape ) evidence.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-06-2015 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    It's karma....looks like RS will go out on a low note

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Rolling Stone is a sleazy cesspool pretending to matter. I had a subscrtiption for several years until they said "artists" like Britney Spears and all the no talent boy bands were important, while saying Duran Duran sucked. Proof that Rolling Stone Magazine is no good and offensive to the bands from the past but loves talentless wonders. I switched to the better magazines that actually profile rock bands, not manufactured shit. The politics are fake too and there is obviously an agenda promoted by that asshole Jann Wenner who has turned the Rock and Roll of Fame into shame. He's a horrible person who hates everything unless he gets something out of it.Before someone accuses me, I used to work in radio and saw a lot of corruption involving him. He's not well liked and it is known he "persuades" people to vote the way he wants, including illegal activities. I'd love nothing more than to see him lose his power and this rag to fold.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    Rolling Stone is a sleazy cesspool pretending to matter. I had a subscrtiption for several years until they said "artists" like Britney Spears and all the no talent boy bands were important, while saying Duran Duran sucked. Proof that Rolling Stone Magazine is no good and offensive to the bands from the past but loves talentless wonders. I switched to the better magazines that actually profile rock bands, not manufactured shit. The politics are fake too and there is obviously an agenda promoted by that asshole Jann Wenner who has turned the Rock and Roll of Fame into shame. He's a horrible person who hates everything unless he gets something out of it.Before someone accuses me, I used to work in radio and saw a lot of corruption involving him. He's not well liked and it is known he "persuades" people to vote the way he wants, including illegal activities. I'd love nothing more than to see him lose his power and this rag to fold.
    I believe you, one of my oldest friends was a radio DJ & got shafted by the de-regulation of radio com. (Lucky for everyone Satellite & Internet were around the corner!)

    Yeah RS needed to go the way of the hippie. They've done some great articles about the drug war & the music biz, but it seemed like RS was the "cool jock at school" who would ignore a lot of the more interesting things happening at the time.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    This is the SECOND high profile fabricated "rape" story. Remember Gail Mangum and the Duke Rape case ? Why not Google Gail and see how she's been doing ?

    This is part of the overall fabricated "rape epidemic " on college campuses. One problem - There is NO epidemic. Every genuine study and survey says that the rate of rapes and sexual assaults on college campuses has either gone down or is pretty stable over the last 20 to 30 years. The epidemic is the hysteria generated by various people with other agendas and biases. Rolling Stone permitted themselves to be swept up in the same hysteria. Just like they fail to vet a lot of Matt Taibi's stuff. I likeTaibi and think he's a good writer but a LOT of his Wall Street ; Big Bank ; political reportage is factually delinquent and/or shockingly incomplete. Worse than a LOT of stuff in the N.Y. Times.

    Here's another question : What about "Jackie " ? Is she being investigated ? Possibly prosecuted ? Why not ?

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    What about "Jackie " ? Is she being investigated ? Possibly prosecuted ? Why not ?
    ... in this case, 'Jackie' failed to name a specific accused rapist, and failed to actually make a police report. Thus no actual rape charges were leveed, and the local DA never had the opportunity to attempt to prosecute an accused rapist. Thus 'Jackie' legally escapes most potential liability for her false statements. Rolling Stone mag, as well as 'Jackie', did arguably inflict permanent, non-reversible damages upon the UVA fraternity as well as it's members ... thus the basis for the fraternity's civil damages lawsuit against RS ( which has much 'deeper pockets' than 'Jackie' herself, thus serving as a much better target for the lawsuit ). But those arguable damages are far less specific than would have been the case had 'Jackie' filed a police report, named an accused rapist, etc. resulting in criminal charges being brought against that alleged rapist thus the alleged rapist becoming part of the public record and the focus of media publicity.

    This could potentially be a very different situation if a future alleged rape victim names a specific accused rapist, actually files a police report, thus provides the local DA and grand jury with the option to prosecute the alleged rapist, but the DA fails to obtain a conviction in court. At that point, the alleged rape victim has set in motion a sequence of events which arguably resulted in permanent, non-reversible damages to the alleged rapist's reputation, future earnings potential, etc. as a direct and immediate result of the rape charge being publicized. And, as such, the alleged rape victim has exposed herself to possible civil damage lawsuits by the alleged rapist to 'recover' said lost earnings potential etc. if the accused rapist was not convicted.


    This is the SECOND high profile fabricated "rape" story. Remember Gail Mangum and the Duke Rape case ?
    This was the essence of my earlier point ... that the cumulative effect of these nationally reported 'false' rape accusations is now serving to change the basic mindset of DA's, of potential jury members, etc. such that the possibility that the alleged rape victim is in fact 'lying' now becomes a serious consideration. If you add in stereotypical ideas about 'strippers' and other adult industry workers, this promotes the possibility that not only would an exotic dancer reporting a ( real, but not caught on camera, and not corroborated by 'credible' witnesses ) incident of rape will not be taken seriously by LE, the local DA, or a grand jury, thus promoting the possibility that the DA and/or grand jury will refuse to prosecute based only on the 'word' of a 'stripper' or other adult industry worker.

    And in the event that the DA and a grand jury do decide to prosecute, but the DA fails to obtain a conviction because the rapist's attorney is successful at selling the narrative that a 'pay for play' transaction involving an adult industry worker may have been involved to the trial jury, that exotic dancer may subsequently face a civil damages lawsuit on the part of the un-convicted rapist. And that would obviously come on top of local news reports 'outing' the real identity of that exotic dancer ... since 'rape shield' laws do not apply to civil damages cases.

    This raises a very real question for future dancers and other adult industry workers who are actual victims of rape ( but rape not captured on camera or corroborated by 'credible' witnesses ). Will reporting said rape actually do more harm than good for the dancer ? Will reporting said rape actually result in a prosecution of the rapist ? Could reporting said rape, but the DA failing to convict the accused rapist in court, result in a huge future financial damages lawsuit against the dancer ? Will the dancer's true identity be plastered all over local media ? This situation SUCKS !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-07-2015 at 01:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by SnuffleUffleGrass View Post
    I believe you, one of my oldest friends was a radio DJ & got shafted by the de-regulation of radio com. (Lucky for everyone Satellite & Internet were around the corner!)

    Yeah RS needed to go the way of the hippie. They've done some great articles about the drug war & the music biz, but it seemed like RS was the "cool jock at school" who would ignore a lot of the more interesting things happening at the time.
    Yeah deregulation destroyed radio. Before that there were many radio jobs, now not many. I had a radio job and the same one is paying less than it was 20 years ago. Not to mention independent promoters who have paid off people to play certain artists. RS used to be a legit magazine but knew they changed when month after month had no talents on the cover.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Aside from the deep pockets aspect, it appears Jackie perhaps told her story to only one person, the Rolling Stone reporter. It was the Rolling Stone that published the story in thousands of copies of its magazine and distributed them nationwide, without checking the facts.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    The one thing I really don't get is why Jann Wenner won't fire the reporter and the editor most responsible for this mess.

    I also find it ridiculous that he needed a review by the Columbia School of Journalism to get to the bottom of this and tell him what went wrong ? He didn't know ? He couldn't talk to the editor and reporter himself ? Couldn't demand to meet Jackie ?

    Gail Magnum got herself in major trouble for unrelated stuff so prosecuting her for filing false reports might have been overkill. Nifong was disbarred.

    What about Tawana Brawley ? Why wasn't she ever prosecuted ?

    A friend of mine got arrested for allegedly violating an Order of Protection taken out by his ex-wife. He denied it and after being arrested a second time for an alleged violation , while he was sitting in the detective's office with his lawyer ( whom I also know ), his wife called the detective and said : " He's right outside my door right now, Come right away ! " the detective told her that her ex was sitting right in front of him so she was obviously lying. After calling the D.A. and reporting what had just happened and agreeing to get the charges dropped the detective was asked when the wife would be arrested ? He responded : " Oh we don't do that to domestic violence victims ." I am NOT making this up.

    A phony report is a phony report is a phony report. Once we start excusing some phony reports and those that make them it's over. As Melonie has pointed out very well , it puts a lot of other people who are righteous victims in shadows of doubt that otherwise would not exist.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 04-08-2015 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    A phony report is a phony report is a phony report. Once we start excusing some phony reports and those that make them it's over. As Melonie has pointed out very well , it puts a lot of other people who are righteous victims in shadows of doubt that otherwise would not exist.
    This is the 'upside' of the de-facto precedent of accused but un-convicted rapists now being able to bring civil suits to recover damages to reputations, future earnings potential, etc. which resulted from said phony reports having been made. However, under the 'can't get blood out of a stone' theory, the deterrent factor regarding phony reports is directly proportional to how much money / assets the alleged rape victim might be putting at risk. In practical terms, this probably means that broke-ass girls still have nothing to lose ( and potentially much to gain ... i.e. if the alleged rapist offers an out of court settlement in exchange for withdrawing her report / testimony ), while a high earning 'stripper' / adult industry worker may have a great deal of money / assets which could become subject to a civil lawsuit jury approved damage award which she might be forced to pay to the accused rapist if a rape conviction could not be obtained during trial and the un-convicted rapist decides to file a civil damages lawsuit against his ( false ) accuser.

    But as is always the case, the devil is in the details. What constitutes a phony report ? Does a report of a rape by a 'stripper' / adult industry worker now 'automatically' result in said report being treated as phony in the absence of an incriminating video tape or corroborating witnesses who have absolutely no connection to that 'stripper' / adult industry worker ??? Or put another way, from the viewpoint of a bible thumping grand jury member who gets to decide whether or not charges will be brought against the accused rapist, is an assumed 'prostitute' a rape victim if her 'customer' doesn't pay her after having sex ? Or is she merely the victim of petit theft ... which is unenforceable since the assumed 'personal services' being sold were illegal ?

    Arguably, this is precisely where the cumulative effect of these widely publicized bogus rape charge girls is taking things !!!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-08-2015 at 08:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    You're making assumptions without knowing the facts. Do you have any statistics on how many times an adult entertainer has filed rape charges and what the conviction rate is?

    If a potential juror has an obvious bias against the victim, the prosecutor can choose not to select that juror.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Do you have any statistics on how many times an adult entertainer has filed rape charges and what the conviction rate is?
    Even if such historical data was available in the public domain, it would arguably be inapplicable today because these recent highly publicized media reports of false rape accusations ... and the recent de-facto precedent of the ( falsely ) accused now being able to ( more easily ) bring civil damages lawsuits against a ( false ) accuser ... have now 'changed the rules of the game'.


    If a potential juror has an obvious bias against the victim, the prosecutor can choose not to select that juror
    Again drifting toward minutiae, this is technically true - within limits - where a trial jury is concerned. However, subtle bias may exist against 'strippers' throughout the entire jury pool. And that is particularly true given the types of people who more frequently wind up as jury members for trials ... housewives, retirees, civil service workers, etc.

    Also, for a DA to actually be able to bring a rape case before a trial jury, an indibtment is first required from a grand jury. And grand jury selection doesn't offer the same potential for challenges, since in the vast majority of cases the grand jury is already selected and impaneled before the DA seeks an indibtment. Thus there is a fair probability that the grand jury members will now take into account the fact that an alleged rape victim is a 'stripper' / adult industry worker. And as a consequence, there is a fair probability that a DA will probably also take into account the fact that an alleged rape victim is a 'stripper' / adult industry worker before deciding to present a 'he said, she said' based request for a rape charge indibtment before a grand jury.

    Or put more bluntly, DA's across the country undoubtedly took notice of what happened to DA James Nifong as a result of 'failing to disclose' all of the facts about rape accuser Gail Mangum ... and, as such, the old days of alleged rape victims being able to avoid serious scrutiny of their own personal situations and backgrounds are arguably now over !!!

    Circling back to the topic of this thread, however, where RS and 'Jackie' are concerned there was no LE, DA or trial jury involvement. Instead the 'damages' to the fraternity and its members were the result of 'Jackie's' false accusations combined with RS's decision to publish her story without adequate investigation / verification of 'Jackie' and her accusations. As such, this is likely to reinforce future investigation / verification procedures when future alleged rape victims come forward ... where an alleged rape victim's 'stripping' / adult industry background will certainly receive increased attention.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-08-2015 at 11:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Melonie is right. With an adult entertainer as a victim there would already be built in problems with bringing a case - victim reluctance ; more fruitful areas for cross examination by the defense and jury bias. Is there less now than 20 or 30 years ago ? Probably but there would still be more than with a more "vanilla" victim.

    As for Mr. Nifong that is an extreme case. Nifong broke about a dozen ethical rules for lawyers in general and prosecutors in particular and clearly did so for venal and political reasons - he was in the middle of a reelection campaign and made a patent play for the black vote. Failing to disclose "Brady" material was the LEAST of his sins. Other than him , when was the last time a prosecutor was disbarred ? This is a topic for another thread but it is a national scandal in this country that prosecutors get away with murder. Clear black and white ethical and legal violations are routinely ignored. Even members of the U.S. Justice Department nailed by the Inspector General are routinely given a slap on the wrist. At most. But I digress.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post

    If a potential juror has an obvious bias against the victim, the prosecutor can choose not to select that juror.
    If a member of the jury panel has an obvious bias either the prosecution or defense should strike him.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    ^^^ An obvious bias - " I can't be fair and impartial " is grounds for a challenge for cause i.e. the potential juror is SUPPOSED to be automatically excused.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    This is a topic for another thread but it is a national scandal in this country that prosecutors get away with murder. Clear black and white ethical and legal violations are routinely ignored. Even members of the U.S. Justice Department nailed by the Inspector General are routinely given a slap on the wrist. At most. But I digress.
    Actually, this is somewhat relevant. With the new de-facto precedent that un-convicted accused rapists can now bring civil damages lawsuits, even if DA's are immune from such lawsuits personally, the DA's 'actions' in regard to questioning / investigating / verifying the alleged rape victims and their 'stories' will certainly become a part of such future civil damages lawsuits brought against the accuser. As such, the past ability of DA's to keep such info out of the public domain will certainly change ... thus a strong probability that the DA's 'actions' will change as well to better withstand potential public scrutiny if the rapist cannot be convicted at trial and subsequently brings a civil damages lawsuit.


    If a member of the jury panel has an obvious bias either the prosecution or defense should strike him.
    Again, this only applies to trial jury candidates. It does NOT apply to grand jury members who must first decide whether or not to issue a rape indibtment against the alleged rapist before an arrest and trial can happen !!! My point was that, for adult industry workers who are future victims of rape, but where hard evidence is lacking thus the charge is mostly confined to 'he said, she said', that DA's / grand jury members will now be more likely to refuse to prosecute / indibt the alleged rapist if the accuser has an adult industry background. Put another way, it will now be all too easy for the possibility of a 'pay for play' scenario involving a ( prostitute ) 'stripper' and a 'paying customer' to cast reasonable doubt.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-09-2015 at 12:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Even if such historical data was available in the public domain, it would arguably be inapplicable today because these recent highly publicized media reports of false rape accusations ... and the recent de-facto precedent of the ( falsely ) accused now being able to ( more easily ) bring civil damages lawsuits against a ( false ) accuser ... have now 'changed the rules of the game'.
    It has ALWAYS been against the law to bring false rape charges against someone.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Again, this only applies to trial jury candidates. It does NOT apply to grand jury members who must first decide whether or not to issue a rape indibtment against the alleged rapist before an arrest and trial can happen !!! My point was that, for adult industry workers who are future victims of rape, but where hard evidence is lacking thus the charge is mostly confined to 'he said, she said', that DA's / grand jury members will now be more likely to refuse to prosecute / indibt the alleged rapist if the accuser has an adult industry background. Put another way, it will now be all too easy for the possibility of a 'pay for play' scenario involving a ( prostitute ) 'stripper' and a 'paying customer' to cast reasonable doubt.
    DA's fail to get indictments less than one in a thousand times.

    What is your proof?

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    ^^^ again more minutiae and 'that was then, this is now'


    It has ALWAYS been against the law to bring false rape charges against someone.
    Technically true. But prior to the recent de-facto precedent of un-convicted accused rapists being able to more easily bring a CIVIL damages case against the accuser, enforcement of false rape charges exclusively involved CRIMINAL law. This in turn set a much higher 'standard of proof', as well as also requiring a DA's decision to press such charges ( as well as a potential grand jury's vote to indibt ). Given the higher 'standard of proof', combined with the amount of systematic bias in favor of alleged rape victims which used to be the case, such enforcement actions were an extremely rare occurrence. Eric Stoner's earlier anecdote clearly illustrates the way things used to be, and arguably still are, in regard to criminal charges not being brought against a 'female victim' false accuser despite blatant proof of false charges having been made !!!

    However, civil lawsuits are now able to side-step such DA's office / LE 'policy'. While a successful civil damages lawsuit still may not result in criminal charges being brought against the ( false ) accuser, being ordered to pay the ( falsely ) accused rapist a fat monetary damages award will nonetheless get the ( false ) accuser's attention.


    DA's fail to get indictments less than one in a thousand times.
    Even if this were true in the past, the 'failure rate' would have been an overall average for all types of crimes. Where assaults, robberies, drugs, thefts, prostitution etc. are concerned, there is virtually always a large amount of incriminating evidence in the form of physical evidence, undercover LE investigations, uniformed LE reports, independent 3rd party statements, etc. available to the DA and grand jury which establish a 'reasonable suspicion of guilt'. However, in cases absent such hard evidence, i.e. a rape charge based mostly on 'he said, she said' statements, logic would dictate that the 'failure rate' would be significantly higher than the overall average. However, the DA's ability to 'pre-select' which cases will and will NOT be presented to a grand jury for an indibtment certainly reduces the 'failure rate' to zero for cases the DA decides not to prosecute.

    Also, and perhaps of greatest relevance to this thread, recent changes and de-facto precedents have certainly reduced the former ability of alleged rape victims to 'remain in the shadows' under the protection of 'rape shield' laws, media editorial policy, etc. Defense attorneys are now able to thoroughly 'explore' the histories and backgrounds of their client's accuser. And as such, DA's and grand juries must now also take into account the history and background of alleged rape victims ... because said history and background WILL now be explored during court trial if the DA and grand jury allow such a court trial to take place.

    Thus, as asserted earlier, if the alleged rape victim has an adult industry background, in a 'he said, she said' based situation lacking 'hard' evidence, the alleged rape victim's adult industry background may now significantly increase the degree of 'reasonable doubt' regarding the guilt of the accused rapist. This in turn arguably reduces the probability that a DA will seek an indibtment in the first place, reduces the probability that a grand jury will issue an indibtment if the DA decides to seek said indibtment, and reduces the probability that the accused rapist will actually be convicted by a trial jury if the case is allowed to go to trial. And, similarly, if an un-convicted accused rapist brings a civil damages lawsuit after the fact, his attorney can again thoroughly 'explore' the accuser's adult industry background before the civil trial jury.

    If you're waiting for statistical proof that this will in fact be the case going forward, unfortunately this is likely to be a long wait. Statistics aren't kept in regard to DA's decisions not to prosecute. Thus any such statistics would have to come from future adult industry worker rape victims themselves ... since no public records or news reports will be generated when DA's refuse to prosecute and/or grand juries refuse to indibt. Criminal rape trials and civil damages trials will of course become part of the public record and the topic of news reports ... so time will tell. But we'll still never know if future criminal rape trials will actually result for 50% or 5% or 0.5% of future rape victims who have adult industry backgrounds !!! My obvious concern is that the 5% or 0.5% figure now appears far more probable than the 50% !!! However, we may eventually be able to get statistics on the conviction rate of accused rapists for those cases where an adult industry worker rape victim's charges actually result in a criminal court trial of the accused rapist. Again my obvious concern is that future conviction rates will be reduced as the result of defense attorney's ability to thoroughly 'explore' the alleged rape victim's adult industry involvement, thus painting a narrative for the trial jury that the circumstances of the alleged rape involved 'pay for play' instead.

    And while we're speculating, I'll state that my greatest concern of all is that future adult industry worker rape victims will be e confronted with so much potential 'official bulls#!t', in addition to warnings of a low probability of actually obtaining a conviction of the accused rapist, on top of the warnings about civil damages liabilities if the accused rapist is not convicted, on top of warnings about the rape victim's personal details and history being 'explored' in detail during both the criminal trial of the accused rapist and any subsequent civil damages trial, that the adult industry worker rape victim will be much more likely to withdraw her statements or not report the rape in the first place. And THAT possibility would effectively make adult industry workers 'easy targets' for would-be rapists !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-10-2015 at 12:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    <snip>

    What about Tawana Brawley ? Why wasn't she ever prosecuted ?

    <snip>
    Many weren't around when this happened, but her lawyer / 'advocate', Al Sharpton admitted he knew that the charges were false, but still promoted it and used it as a vehicle to gain notoriety. Was he ever punished or called to account? Last I saw he's still shoveling it in an MSNBC talk show.
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    ... Kittens are assholes but they're just so darn cute.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    ^^^ again, failing to recognize the distinction between the long-standing but almost never happening possibility of persons who have made and publicized false accusations of rape being criminally prosecuted, and the recent de-facto precedent that persons making and publicizing false accusations of rape can now be sued in civil court for 'damages' to the reputation, future earnings potential, etc. of the person falsely accused ... 'damages' which were the immediate result of such false charges being made public, and which cannot be totally 'undone' by the accused later being found innocent in a court of law.

    These are the 'new wrinkles' which have resulted from the aftermath of the Duke Lacrosse case, and which are reinforced with every new incident of 'false' rape charges being widely publicized - with the latest obviously being 'Jackie' and Rolling Stone magazine.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-10-2015 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    I think there is a difference between a false allegation like that told by "Jackie" and Crystal Mangum and a failed prosecution because there is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. "Jackie" and Crystal just made up stories about things that never happened. Those are and should be punished. That Crystal didn't end up in jail for false reporting is a minor miracle. It's a good thing that the prosecutor was disbarred and Duke's reputation was smeared. (An undeserved reputation for eliteness, I might add.)

    Z

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ again, failing to recognize the distinction between the long-standing but almost never happening possibility of persons who have made and publicized false accusations of rape being criminally prosecuted, and the recent de-facto precedent that persons making and publicizing false accusations of rape can now be sued in civil court for 'damages' to the reputation, future earnings potential, etc. of the person falsely accused ... 'damages' which were the immediate result of such false charges being made public, and which cannot be totally 'undone' by the accused later being found innocent in a court of law.

    These are the 'new wrinkles' which have resulted from the aftermath of the Duke Lacrosse case, and which are reinforced with every new incident of 'false' rape charges being widely publicized - with the latest obviously being 'Jackie' and Rolling Stone magazine.
    They're not 'new wrinkles'. It has always been legal to sue somebody for making false claims.

    The Duke case happened close to 10 years ago. Please cite all of these rape cases that have been affected by the Duke case.

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    Default Re: Rollong Stone Magazine Admits UVA Rape Story Bogus

    They're not 'new wrinkles'. It has always been legal to sue somebody for making false claims.
    The 'new wrinkle' takes the form of a de-facto acknowledgement by the courts that false charges of rape ... in and of themselves ... result in monetary damages to the accused which cannot be fully 'reversed' by a later finding of not guilty. Those monetary damages can take the form of the cash value of future 'lost opportunity' costs i.e. the accused but un-convicted alleged rapist being passed over for future 'prime' job opportunities as a result of the rape charge showing up during internet searches / background checks, etc. They can also take the form of damage to 'reputation' ... which are the grounds the fraternity's civil suit is based on.

    Prior to this new 'wrinkle' getting started after the Duke case, and becoming more established with each passing year, successfully launching a civil damages suit which would result in a 'meaningful' monetary damages award placed a heavy burden on the ( falsely ) accused party to prove actual monetary and/or reputational damages incurred, which were in turn a provable direct result of the false charges having been made. The new 'wrinkle' has lifted the vast majority of that former burden of proof.

    An obvious example of this difference would be a ( falsely ) accused college student who, after graduation, was passed over for a job by every big name legal partnership in town, and who wound up having to accept a community legal aid job. Prior to the 'new wrinkle', there was virtually no way for the ( falsely ) accused to absolutely prove that his failure to be hired by a big name legal partnership was the direct result of the ( false ) rape charges. Nor was there any way to prove that the $75k versus $50k = $25k per year 'differential' in pay was an actual 'damage' caused by the false accuser, since the falsely accused never held the $75k per year job to start with. Under the 'new wrinkle' de-facto precedent, civil courts now readily accept such aftermath as 'damages' attributable to the false accuser.


    Please cite all of these rape cases that have been affected by the Duke case
    How about citing all of the subsequent rape cases which have NOT been affected by the Duke case ! As I clearly stated earlier, there won't be any 'hard' proof available for some time to come. And even then, some portion of that 'hard' proof would have to come from adult industry worker rape victims themselves ... since a DA refusing to prosecute or a grand jury refusing to indibt is not going to show up in official statistics.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-11-2015 at 05:05 AM.

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