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Thread: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

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    Default When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Hi ladies! I'm a journalist (and former dancer) working on a story about club creepshots.

    Have you ever found a picture of yourself online--a picture that was taken while you were dancing (or even naked) and that you didn't give permission for? Have you grabbed a cell phone out of someone's hand because they were being sneaky and trying to take your pics? Have you even had to threaten to sue or pay a lawyer to get your nude/nonconsenual photos taken down?

    The story I'm writing compares strip club creepshots with new, emerging revenge porn laws that make it illegal in many states to take nude or sexualized images and share them without the subject's consent. I've heard from dancers in Portland about this phenomenon, and am looking for dancers in other places to talk to as well. Most of the dancers I've spoken with have found their pics on Instagram or Facebook, often by searching for the club in the location search.

    Please respond here or with a DM if you are interested in being interviewed. The deadline is short, and I want to finish the piece this week if possible, so please get in touch now if you have a relevant story to share.

    Pseudonyms or stage names are OK if you don't want your real name published.

    Thanks!
    "If you can't love yourself, how in the HELL you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a amen!" -Rupaul

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    OK quick answer ... yes ... multiple times. Upload sites, tube sites, social media sites, etc. In the most extreme case, a strip club stage video of me wound up being broadcast by a foreign TV network without my knowledge or consent.

    I spoke with my attorney about available recourse, and his opinion was that uploads by scumbag strip club customers that did not attempt to profit from the clandestine pictures would fall under the 'fair use' doctrine thus making civil lawsuits unwinnable. After all, the law considers strip clubs to be 'public' places ... and, as such, the stage performers who are willingly performing in various states of undress in exchange for money have sacrificed any 'expectation of privacy'.

    This is, of course, a very different situation than clandestine pictures being taken of the same dancer within the confines of her own home, in a hotel room, etc., where an 'expectation of privacy' argument could plausibly be made. This is also a different situation from private / personal adult content being 'outed' by one partner for 'revenge' purposes, because both parties held an 'expectation of privacy' when the private video was originally shot ... thus one partner arguably has no right to unilaterally waive the other party's 'expectation of privacy' without knowledge and consent of the other party.

    The key legal point, of course, is that willing paid performers in 'public' places have no 'expectation of privacy'. They, or their club / producer / webcam host, do have an expectation ( via copyright ) that any images of said performances cannot be used for profit by 3rd parties without knowledge or consent ( and this eventually got me a 'few bucks' in settlement from the foreign TV network ). But the mere posting of clandestine images of said performances to the internet, without a profit motive, is typically considered to be 'fair use'.

    There have even been a couple of 'upskirt photo' cases dismissed recently because the clandestine photos were shot on a 'public' street. See . Again, the girl not being entitled to any 'expectation of privacy' in a 'public' place was the key legal issue.

    I would also speculate that the greatest worry in regard to clandestine pictures of dancers being posted to the internet actually is the possible use of facial recognition match software based searches to link the dancer's online 'stripper' images to a driver's license photo, social media photo, online high school / college yearbook photo, online local news report photo, straight job application photo, etc. This in turn would make the fact that person X, address Y has a work history as a 'stripper' available to anyone who has access to facial recognition software, access to the internet, and enough interest to run the search.

    In today's highly competitive 'straight' job environment, having such a facial recognition match turn up during a pre-employment background check could do a lot of potential financial damage to the former 'stripper' straight job applicant. In point of fact, the ex-'stripper' straight job applicant may never be made aware of the reason she hasn't been called back after submitting numerous straight job applications. But, under current law, there would appear to be no recourse available to that 'stripper' if clandestine images that were posted to the internet by 3rd parties without a direct profit motive were also used to 'deny' her straight job opportunities.

    Of course, to make matters even worse, the advancing 'state of the art' where virtually undetectable wearable cameras are concerned continues to get more 'ridiculous'. See and and
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-21-2015 at 12:28 PM.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    ^But isn't taking a photo of an individual in a "state of undress" without their consent illegal (a misdemeanor at least)?

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    I know a girl who there is a video of on you tube. It sucks because people were making terrible comments about her and she was really nice.
    XoXo Gia
    Danielle Fishell (the Dish): "If the Super-Star thing doesn't work out, Gia makes a great stripper name"

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    But isn't taking a photo of an individual in a "state of undress" without their consent illegal (a misdemeanor at least)?
    This is conditional on the individual having a legal 'expectation of privacy' in the circumstances under which the photo was taken. The extreme example, of course, is attempting to charge someone for taking photos at a ( legal ) topless public beach ( i.e. every public beach in NY ). In legal terms, someone attempting to take photos in a ( legal ) strip club which is open to the public is no different. In both cases, being topless was legal in that particular 'public' place, in both cases the girls chose to be topless in that particular 'public' place, thus in both cases neither girl could claim she had any reasonable expectation that her bare breasts would NOT be seen by others present in that 'public' place.

    Again, legally speaking, it also doesn't make any real difference if the girl is seen by eyes alone or is photographed. Strip club customers or topless beach goers cannot be charged with being 'peeping toms', while a landlord COULD be charged with being a 'peeping tom' for looking through a peep-hole into a girl tenant's bedroom. The key issue is 'expectation of privacy'.

    In terms of legal 'evolution', my attorney pointed out that this may be a case of 'unintended consequences'. The same liberalization of laws which made topless / nude strip club performances legal, which made topless beaches legal, etc. also made it legal for guys to look at ( and photograph for non-profit 'fair use' purposes ) the topless / nude girls who chose to be topless / nude in those 'public' places - knowing that they would be seen by members of the 'public' who were present. Legally speaking, 'you can't have it both ways'.

    I also asked my attorney whether paid 'admission' makes any difference. Again, paying a charge for access to the public beach, like paying a charge for access to a strip club which is open to the general public, are legally the same and carries no 'expectation of privacy'. It was also pointed out that, over the years, a couple of busted dancers had tried to claim that a club's VIP / CR area was in fact a private space deserving of an 'expectation of privacy' between the dancer and paying customer. In every case, courts ruled that in the absence of being a registered 'hotel', VIP / CR areas of club are just as 'public' as the main room, thus carry no 'expectation of privacy', thus club / LE surveillance of VIP / CR areas was legal, thus evidence based on such surveillance was admissible, thus the busted dancers were found guilty.

    And again, the issue of taking photographs / videos without the subject's permission or consent and using them for non-profit 'fair use' purposes, versus taking photographs / videos without permission or consent and then using them in a manner that is intended to generate a profit for the person who took the photographs / videos, is a totally different legal matter. But in the latter case, the 'crime' is confined to copyright violation ... which is also conditioned by the 'fair use' doctrine in non-profit situations.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-21-2015 at 04:35 AM.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Yes. I saw someone record me and approached her and told her to delete the video, she claimed she did not record me and that her phone was dead.
    The next day I found the video of me on Instagram. Before commenting asking the woman to take it down I took screenshots of everything she had posted to Instagram. I found out about her family, her boyfriend, and where she worked. I even made sure I'd be able to keep track of her account once she blocked me (which she did) and in case she changed her IG name (which she did). She blocked me immediately after I told her to take the topless video of me down. I used my own IG to tag her in a post informing her I knew where she worked and who she was dating, and that I had zero qualms about showing up at her work place and recording an unpleasant interaction. She changed her IG name, I re-tagged her with the new one. This went on for a few hours before she finally took the video down and called me "crazy" and told me I took it too far.
    Inside of the club I do take phones and delete stuff regularly. I have been threatened but am not afraid. Most of the time it is actually women recording us. I warn them the first time that I will throw their phone across the room if they do it again. I also slap phones out of people hands and if nearby kick the closest drink onto it.
    I also report photos/accounts that I find have posted myself or other girls without our consent, but if it isn't explicitly nude IG won't take it down

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Yes, I actually got fired for taking the nasty slime's phone and smashing it to pieces. I said, dude, no don't take a picture please. And he laughed and took one anyway. I just went completely mad and grabbed his phone and smashed it with my heel. He actually went to hit me!! Total drama and I did end up getting fired (but rehired a week later)

    This is something totally unacceptable, I'm not going to have anyone expose me. Creeps!!

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gia2608 View Post
    I know a girl who there is a video of on you tube. It sucks because people were making terrible comments about her and she was really nice.
    Mother Theresa could post a video on YouTube and people would make terrible comments about her. Hell, even cute baby animal videos have a large percentage of comments bullying the poster.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Inside of the club I do take phones and delete stuff regularly. I have been threatened but am not afraid. Most of the time it is actually women recording us. I warn them the first time that I will throw their phone across the room if they do it again. I also slap phones out of people hands and if nearby kick the closest drink onto it.
    This is another case where the 'letter of the law' works against dancers. The ( unfortunately pre electronics age ) case history on this topic basically boils down to this. In places which have a clearly posted policy of 'no cameras', the proprietor has the legal right to confiscate 'film' if cameras are used in violation of that policy. But proprietors do not have the right to confiscate or damage the cameras themselves. Thus according to my attorney, the extent of legal options is to try and get the club customer to delete the clandestine pics / videos they have shot ... providing that the club already had a 'no cameras' policy sign clearly posted which prohibit such pics / videos. In the absence of a previously posted 'no cameras' policy sign, the customer arguably has every legal right to take pics / videos inside strip clubs which are legally considered to be 'public places'.



    I actually got fired for taking the nasty slime's phone and smashing it to pieces. I said, dude, no don't take a picture please. And he laughed and took one anyway. I just went completely mad and grabbed his phone and smashed it with my heel. He actually went to hit me!! Total drama and I did end up getting fired
    This is particularly the case if the clubowner has NOT posted a 'no cameras' policy sign which is clearly visible to all club customers upon entering the club. Again, it is not inherently illegal for a member of the 'general public' ( i.e. club customer ) to take pictures in a 'public' place ( i.e. strip club ) !!! If being topless / nude is legal in that 'public' place, then it is not inherently illegal for a member of the 'general public' to take topless / nude pics or videos either. But it IS illegal for a dancer to damage a customer's cell phone.

    Also, given the online / cloud storage capabilities of most cell phones these days, even if the cell phone was confiscated or damaged, odds favor that the clandestine images / video were already uploaded by the cell phone ... and thus are still accessible for subsequent posting even if the club customer's cell phone was put 'out of commission'. Thus a dancer damaging a customer's cell phone arguably has no positive effects ( other than making the dancer feel better at that moment ), but several potential negative effects. In this modern world where a camera equipped cell phone may actually cost $500 or more, a dancer damaging a customer's cell phone could potentially result in anything from a $500 small claims court case to a criminal 'vandalism' charge. And in either case, the dancer's true identity would be 'outed' to both the customer, as well as to any other interested parties via public court records.

    Also, from a practical standpoint, any serious clandestine pic / video scumbag strip club customers are probably not going to be so obvious as to use their cell phone's camera. As shown in previous links, camera equipped pens, camera equipped watches, camera equipped glasses, 'stealth' camera rigs where the camera lens itself is only 1/4" in diameter thus can be pushed through a button-hole, etc. are now cheap and readily accessible. Arguably, it is these 'stealth' camera devices which dancers aren't immediately aware of that dancers now really need to worry about.

    Back to my personal example, the clandestine video of my strip club stage performance which wound up being broadcast on a foreign TV network was clearly shot from stage-side. However, I can absolutely swear that no 'obvious' camera / cell phone was being used stage-side on that particular night. From the angle of the camera shots, my guess is that either camera equipped glasses, or one of those 1/4" diameter cameras stuck through a shirt collar button-hole, was actually used.

    And just think ... next year we'll have to worry about these !!!

    Last edited by Melonie; 04-21-2015 at 12:44 PM.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Wow Melonie you are a PERFECT subject for this article! I'll try DMing you now, but I'm just going to ask if I can either quote from what you wrote there or contact you via phone or email for an interview (to basically get the same info). Depends on which you would be more comfortable with. I'll give you my info in the DM. Thanks for the amazing share!
    "If you can't love yourself, how in the HELL you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a amen!" -Rupaul

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Lokikola your story would make a great quote for the story too! I'll DM you today also
    "If you can't love yourself, how in the HELL you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a amen!" -Rupaul

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Quote Originally Posted by cometbus View Post
    Wow Melonie you are a PERFECT subject for this article! I'll try DMing you now, but I'm just going to ask if I can either quote from what you wrote there or contact you via phone or email for an interview (to basically get the same info). Depends on which you would be more comfortable with. I'll give you my info in the DM. Thanks for the amazing share!
    Help yourself to what I have posted. You can also PM me with additional questions. Since I now live 'way south of the border', phone will be problematic.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Clubs can post signs that picture taking and videoing is not allowed, I have seen this. And in this case I would imagine the club and individual dancer would have a stronger leg to stand on legally; the problem is without dancers implicitly putting their foot down about this very little is to be done.
    XoXo Gia
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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Clubs can post signs that picture taking and videoing is not allowed, I have seen this. And in this case I would imagine the club and individual dancer would have a stronger leg to stand on legally
    ^^^ precisely !!! Without the club having such a 'no cameras' policy previously posted, individual dancers have virtually no legal 'legs' to stand on if a club customer chooses to take pics / videos of them for non-profit 'fair use' !!!

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    A club in Austin does that. Its owner takes advantage of drunk dancers (and customers) and would take pictures of them while wasted. Some other dancer posted a link to that site on a "club chat" thread.





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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gia2608 View Post
    Clubs can post signs that picture taking and videoing is not allowed, I have seen this. And in this case I would imagine the club and individual dancer would have a stronger leg to stand on legally; the problem is without dancers implicitly putting their foot down about this very little is to be done.
    The way the club should handle this is with a ticket to enter that describes the license being granted. Specifically, the license should prohibit filming, photographing by any means, including digital. Further the license should prohibit posting of those images or rebroadcasting those images. Think of the back of you Symphony, NBA or NFL tickets. (The NFL and NBA do allow non-commercial photography, but, the symphony does not.)

    Of course, a license is only the first step. Then someone has to enforce it.

    Z

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    A club in Austin does that. Its owner takes advantage of drunk dancers (and customers) and would take pictures of them while wasted. Some other dancer posted a link to that site on a "club chat" thread.
    Don King of Yellow Rose.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    His name is Don King? I'm sorry but ahahahahahahaha
    "If you can't love yourself, how in the HELL you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a amen!" -Rupaul

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    I just picture Mike Tyson's manager walking around snapping cell pics
    "If you can't love yourself, how in the HELL you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a amen!" -Rupaul

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Gosh, I'm glad that my club prohibits phones even being out on the main floor. The owners are super big on dancer privacy and safety. It is posted in several places on large signs, the owner has the right to confiscate and search any phones that are out on the floor. If someone takes a phone out to text or something they will ask them put it away, explain that it is a privacy issue, and direct them to the areas phones are permitted.

    I actually saw a bouncer walk right up to a customer and take the phone right out of his hands one night when he wouldn't put it away. He checked the phone and there were tons of pics from the club across town (they allow phone use). The owner deleted all the pics and banned the guy from the club. When he called the other club to give them the guy's info they were like, "Well, you deleted the pictures so it's all good"

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    How do you know if someone posts a video of you after the fact?
    “Cook for him like a housewife, fuck him good like a nympho….pay the rent and the car note, he invests in me like crypto”

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Please, please, PLEASE be careful about posting legal advice or using legal advice posted on a forum. Every state has different laws governing video and audio recordings and what kind of consent is needed.

    However, privately owned businesses are considered private property in all 50 states and do not fall under laws governing the expectation of privacy in a public place. A strip club and a topless beach are two completely different things.

    While destroying a photo or video is well within a dancers right destroying a phone or camera is potentially a misdemeanor. It's best to allow club management to deal with it.

    I have been photographed and recorded while dancing. Given my history as a model, I could care less.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Please, please, PLEASE be careful about posting legal advice or using legal advice posted on a forum. Every state has different laws governing video and audio recordings and what kind of consent is needed
    ^^^ Agreed. Nobody posting in this SW thread is an attorney. The info I passed on regarding my own personal attorney's opinions obviously only apply to New York. And the opinion of one particular attorney may not agree with opinions from other attorneys on the very same issue. However, court case precedents are pretty solid ... and where the particular issue of this thread is concerned, those court case precedents aren't ambiguous at all. 'Expectation of Privacy', or lack thereof, is a key component.


    However, privately owned businesses are considered private property in all 50 states and do not fall under laws governing the expectation of privacy in a public place. A strip club and a topless beach are two completely different things
    You're mixing apples and oranges. If strip clubs were in fact treated differently than public beaches in terms of 'expectation of privacy', it would be just as difficult for a DA to make a prostitution charge stick for busted dancers as it is for escorts doing business in hotel rooms. Because hotel rooms carry an undisputable 'expectation of privacy', collecting evidence first requires a judge to sign a warrant based on 'probable cause'. No such requirement exists for gathering evidence in strip clubs because no 'expectation of privacy' applies.

    However, there may be an exception for strip clubs which are operated on a 'private club' basis ... thus technically only open to officially registered club members, and not open to members of the general 'public' walking in off the street.


    While destroying a photo or video is well within a dancers right
    Your statement cannot be taken as a given. However, considering that digital photos or videos create no costs or other consequences to the camera owner if deleted, the camera owner doesn't have any effective recourse if such photos or videos are in fact deleted. Agreed that destroying a photo or video might be within the rights of the proprietor of an establishment which has posted a 'no cameras' policy ... but dancers aren't proprietors ! Thus I totally agree with your advice to dancers to let club management handle such issues.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-22-2015 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    I actually saw a bouncer walk right up to a customer and take the phone right out of his hands one night when he wouldn't put it away. He checked the phone and there were tons of pics from the club across town (they allow phone use). The owner deleted all the pics and banned the guy from the club. When he called the other club to give them the guy's info they were like, "Well, you deleted the pictures so it's all good"
    This arguably raises a somewhat 'disturbing' point about clubowner motivations these days. In regard to posting a 'no cell phones' policy, in point of fact the clubowner is creating an inconvenience for certain strip club customers ... particularly high income business and professional customers whose phones don't stop ringing after they leave their workplace. In regard to posting a 'cell phones will be confiscated' policy, the clubowner is also creating a potential security risk for club customers i.e. whatever data present in their cell phones potentially being available to the clubowner or bouncers. Thus a clubowner posting such policies now creates the potential risk of alienating some ( typically high spending ) strip club customers.

    While some clubowners may place a higher value on dancer privacy than on the potential loss of some strip club customer spending dollars and agree to enact such policies, with today's difficult economy many other clubowners now value potential additional customer spending dollars more highly than any non-monetary concerns involving dancers. Thus the two very different reactions by the two different clubs.


    How do you know if someone posts a video of you after the fact?
    ummm ... some possible answers ...

    - every one of the prospective 'straight job' employers you submitted a job application to fails to call you back

    - 'normal' world male friends and acquaintances start being more sexually 'forward'

    - 'normal' world female friends start treating you like trash

    - lurid comments start appearing on your social media pages
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-22-2015 at 10:40 AM.

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    Default Re: When customers take your photo secretly and post it online...

    Just to clarify the legal stuff, I just interviewed an attorney that specializes in 'nonconsensual pornography' or revenge porn. She said that in most states, it would be illegal to photograph or film a dancer in a club. For two reasons: most states have a voyeurism law that protects women from being filmed in partial states of undress when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and also most states have unlawful recording laws that ban filming or photograph of performances like dance, concerts, movies, etc. The lawyer (Carrie Goldberg) said that most dancers would actually meet the reasonable privacy expectation rule because of either a) the club has 'no photo' signs or other posted codes of conduct banning it b) the dancer signed a contract in which the use of photography by customers is mentioned as not allowed or c) the 'industry standard' is that dancers do not expect to be secretly photographed or filmed at work. State laws vary, and there's a difference between civil law (in which you sue someone) and criminal law (in which law enforcement brings charges against someone), but between the various remedies it's most likely very illegal to photograph a stripper. I'll post a link to the article here when it's finished!
    "If you can't love yourself, how in the HELL you gonna love somebody else? Can I get a amen!" -Rupaul

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