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    Veteran Member Neonsugar's Avatar
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    Default Rental properties?

    So I have always wanted to have a few rental properties. I'd be "paying cash" (of course a few years from now) so I wouldn't have to worry about interest, payments, etc. so anyways the thought of bad tenants scares me, of course everything in life has pros and cons and a risk factor but I'm so intrigued about rental properties. I've also thought about owning a medical office and leasing it to a professional medical or dental team. It feels as though the risk with medical professionals vs Sally down the street so to speak is lower. I was also thinking of storage units. As you can see I'm all over the place but rental properties sparks such an interest in me. I'm only 20 as of now so have many years of deciding but any insight, first hand experiences etc would be awesome thanks!

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    ^^^ much will depend on what real estate market price levels, mortgage interest rates, property tax rates, market prices for rents, renter's rights laws, the state of your local economy, etc. will all look like 5 years down the road.

    In regard to commercial real estate, that can be an even more volatile market.

    My acquaintances in the commercial real estate business now tell me that the 'hot properties' are mobile home parks !!!

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    My acquaintances in the commercial real estate business now tell me that the 'hot properties' are mobile home parks !!!
    I have heard the same. Mobile homes, once they reach a certain age, cannot be moved on the roads and highways. Once that happens, the mobile home park can make a very low ball offer for a "home" and usually get it. Then, they can rent it and the lot for years for much more money than a lot alone.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    ^ Well most mobile home parks own the lot. You pay lot rent. After seeing what my mom and sister are going through I'd never own one. You can't insure them and yes a builder can come in and offer all who own their lots money and then your shit out of luck. They'll tear down and build nice condos or something and give you basically nothing. Also never buy in a deed restricted community with an HOA/ feel free to browse my thread and see what I'm going through.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Mobile homes, once they reach a certain age, cannot be moved on the roads and highways. Once that happens, the mobile home park can make a very low ball offer for a "home" and usually get it.
    ^^^ Indeed. In most US states, the age limit for public road travel is 10 years. However, the 'useful life' of a mobile home is easily 20 years. This has very positive results from the viewpoint of the mobile home park owner ...

    - unlike tenants renting apartments, mobile home owners who are renting lots in mobile home parks can't 'move out' once their mobile home becomes 10 years old. And even if the mobile home is newer than that, a significant expense is involved to disconnect services, hire a semi truck to move the mobile home, set the mobile home up in a new park, and reconnect services. With that expense amounting to one years worth of lot rent, very few mobile home owners ever do this. As such, mobile home lot renters are usually very long term tenants, meaning that tenant 'turnover' rates ( and thus lost monthly lot rent payments for the park owner ) are extremely low.

    - since most mobile homes are owner occupied, the associated maintenance and repair costs fall on the mobile home owners and not the mobile home park owner. This significantly reduces the risk of unforeseen maintenance and repair related expenditures as compared to a 'landlord' who must maintain and repair damage to rental apartments / houses.

    - as you pointed out, mobile homes which are too old to be moved over public roads amount to an 'unmarketable' commodity if the owner is forced to move. In the case of a job transfer or other need to relocate, the mobile home park owner is often the only willing buyer ... at a VERY low price. In the case of a bankruptcy filing, the mobile home park owner can usually take over title to the mobile home as compensation for unpaid lot rent. Either way, the mobile home park owner winds up with a very low cost asset which can then be rented out or resold to yet another 'captive' lot rent tenant !!!

    Also, from a completely different angle, unlike real estate mortgage financing which is heavily regulated, mobile home financing has more in common with auto loans. Indeed, 'vendor financing' is available via the mobile home manufacturers in the same way that 'vendor financing' is available from captive financing arms of auto manufacturers. This in turn means that 'deep subprime' borrowers with dicey credit histories and poor credit ratings are able to obtain 10 year financing to purchase a new mobile home where there is near zero chance they would ever be approved for a conventional real estate mortgage ( due to 'deep subprime' credit rating, high debt to income ratio, need for substantial down payment money, etc. ).

    From the viewpoint of a would-be mobile home owner / lot rent tenant, this arrangement arguably provides some semblance of 'home ownership', and does reduce long term total monthly costs versus renting ( versus future apartment rent prices which can be increased significantly from year to year ). In the case of mobile home owners renting a lot in a mobile home park, the lot rent price is a minor component compared to their mobile home loan payments ... and those mobile home loan payments cannot be increased in future years !!! Also, after the 10 year loan has been paid off, continuing to live in the now fully paid for mobile home only requires ongoing payment of lot rent. Thus mobile home ownership appears to be an increasingly popular phenomenon in today's 'new normal' economy.


    You can't insure them and yes a builder can come in and offer all who own their lots money and then your shit out of luck. They'll tear down and build nice condos or something and give you basically nothing.
    Indeed any would-be mobile home owners also have the option of purchasing their own piece of land upon which to site their mobile home. However, most cities / counties have strict zoning regulations in place which limit use of land for this particular purpose. Also, besides ponying up many thousands of dollars to purchase the land, it is also necessary to pony up many more thousands of dollars to install your own electric service pole, your own water well, your own septic system etc. ... none of which can usually be financed, thus all of which must usually be paid for out-of-pocket if the person income / credit situation falls into the 'deep subprime' category. Thus, with a handful of exceptions, most would-be mobile home owners these days cannot 'afford' to pursue this option.

    This situation also gives a mobile home park owner a major cost advantage due to 'economy of scale' ... i.e. a park containing 25 mobile homes will probably only require one central well water system and one central septic system. Mobile home parks are also much more likely to be granted a zoning variance approval from cities / counties than individual properties, which may in turn allow the mobile home park to connect to municipal water and sewer systems.

    While details vary hugely from park to park, typical cost ballpark for 'no frills' lot rents are in the $200 per month ballpark ... which typically covers water, sewer, garbage etc. Typical cost ballpark for 'package deal' lot rents are in the $400 per month ballpark ... which typically covers the above plus electricity, basic cable TV, etc. Given that the park owner's property tax costs are on the order of <$200 per lot per YEAR, and given that the park owner's imputed costs of providing water, sewer, and garbage pick-up are on the order of <$400 per lot per YEAR ( and much less where municipal water and sewer service are available ), mobile home park ownership can be highly profitable !!! In comparison, an individual mobile home property owner would wind up having to pay the $2500+ per year in property taxes, having to pay their own electric and cable TV bills, having to pay for their own garbage removal, having to pay for any necessary repairs to their water or septic systems, etc., in addition to the necessary initial investment to buy the property and install an electric service, plus water and septic systems, in the first place.

    Even so, spending $200 a month for 'no frills' monthly lot rent, plus spending perhaps another ~$600 a month on a 10 year 7.5% 'deep subprime' loan on a new $50,000 mobile home, is still very affordable versus outright apartment / house rental options presently running significantly more than $800 per month for the same amount of square feet / number of bedrooms etc. And unlike the outright apartment / house rental options where rents can increase by 10% or more year after year, the ~$600 monthly mobile home payment is fixed for the next 10 years. Thus as long as one can handle the restricted location options, mobile home ownership appears to be beneficial for both the mobile home owner and the park owner.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-07-2015 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    I didn't read through all that but if you want to buy mobile homes the first one my mom bought for 1000. Yes. You can get mobiles here for cheap. The park their in now they paid 8 and 10,000 for them and there not as nice as the other park nor is the location. Almost all parks here you need to be 55 or over. I wouldn't buy one. But i'm kinda sick of the home thing ATM. I've owned them for 25 years. Too much stress all at once.
    Last edited by michele11; 06-07-2015 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Added info

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Warren Buffett himself said if he could he'd buy 100,000 rental homes. This becoming a rental society.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    I've got one and my family has done many of them as family projects throughout the years ( we focus on long term 10 year plus projects ).
    I'm personally glad I got mine. It's about 8 years old and 40% paid off.
    My goal was to outright own it ( place to live myself for free plus income generation by age 45 ish ). Not sure if I'll be right on time but I havent done too bad.
    Ask away if you have any questions.

    I'll update soon with some of my tips to put mine as much on auto pilot as possible . For me, " auto pilot " is truly a goal for the property and a requirement for my tenents as I'm currently a long distance land lord over 3,000 miles from it!

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    This becoming a rental society
    This is absolutely true.

    Part of the reason seems to be a different 'approach' to life by younger people. They have arguably dropped the geographic 'linkage' which was important to their parents and very important to their grandparents. Instead they have arguably accepted the 'new normal' where financial and career opportunities are likely to require them to relocate. As such, home ownership can be viewed as a potential complication / problem.

    Of course, on the pragmatic side, most younger people now have less ability to save up down payment money than their parents or grandparents did, due to stagnant / lower pay rates but rising costs of 'necessities'. And, obviously, the 'easy credit' era NINJA mortgages their parents were able to obtain have now given way to income verification, debt to income ratio analysis, credit rating checks, etc. Thus for younger people who do wish to 'stay in one place', the 'hurdles' which must now be 'jumped' to gain approval for mortgage financing are higher.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahuba View Post
    Warren Buffett himself said if he could he'd buy 100,000 rental homes. This becoming a rental society.
    If you know about rentals can you please go read the thread I started and see if you can offer advice. Thanks. Updates on Hoa issue.
    Last edited by michele11; 06-08-2015 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Added info

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    I'm just gonna say. As someone who's rented property for 13 years. You better make sure you don't buy in an HOA and you better have lots of money. I had to spend over 15,000 2 years ago to gut it after tenants destroyed it. Also it sat vaccant for a year ( hence I was paying two mortgages, electric and water). It's not as easy peasy as people think.

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    Post Re: Rental properties?

    Quote Originally Posted by michele11 View Post
    I'm just gonna say. As someone who's rented property for 13 years. You better make sure you don't buy in an HOA and you better have lots of money. I had to spend over 15,000 2 years ago to gut it after tenants destroyed it. Also it sat vaccant for a year ( hence I was paying two mortgages, electric and water). It's not as easy peasy as people think.
    As OP said, she plans on paying in cash. This greatly reduces the risk because if you have to go without tenants for a time, you won't be paying a second mortgage. Running actual credit checks, checking with past landlords, and regular check-ins with the tenants will help to make sure tenants don't destroy the place. You do have to treat it as another job, especially if you have multiple properties. Even though it's a lot of work, the payoff can be huge - by the time you're retired, you can have completely paid off properties so you still have an income from renters. Just be prepared for the worst and don't get get in over your head.
    The whole world steps aside for the one who knows where she's going.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    ^ yes. I now. As I've had rentals for 13 years.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    My late uncle was a landlord/house flipper- yes it is harder than it seems. He had a full time job, his wife did too. He never spent money on himself in order to have enough savings to cover renter-related emergencies. (& Yes they do happen.)

    Sadly his wife doesn't want to keep doing that- she said it's too much hassle & she worries about legal issues.

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    Sadly his wife doesn't want to keep doing that- she said it's too much hassle & she worries about legal issues.
    Potential legal issues are indeed a growing concern ... and particularly so for 'absentee' landlords who cannot provide a 'real time' personal observation based dispute of the 'claimed' events involved with a tenant incident. This translates into the landlord needing to spend additional money to create and 'maintain' an LLC or S-Corp for their rental business to protect personal assets from potential tenant / visitor lawsuits. This also translates into increasingly expensive landlord insurance premiums.

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    Yeah well. The checks to remax were certified so I guess i eat the 1100. When I had no issues rentals were great ATM they're a fucken PIA! I really wouldn't recommend it to anyone who hasn't owned a home and seen what home ownership is about.

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    ^^^ that sucks ( eating the cost of returning the tenant's security deposit while your rental agent books a 'windfall profit' )

    Indeed owning, maintaining and administering a rental property is an even larger A$$ Pain that owning and maintaining the home you reside in !!! The major 'kickers' are tenant problems which can lead to high repair costs and zero revenue months as the property remains vacant while a new tenant can be found, unpredictable 'big ticket' maintenance items like a leaking roof or a dead central air conditioner, unexpectedly large future increases in property tax rates, unexpected negative local economic conditions depressing local property prices thus rent price levels, unexpected legal fees if a tenant decides to sue, unexpected passage of local rent control laws, etc.

    Put simply, these days being a landlord involves risk. As with any investment, the degree of risk should balance out versus the amount of financial reward. In some local markets that is definitely the case. But in other local markets landlords may struggle to break even. Personally speaking, IMHO there are other types of investments which provide a better risk versus reward equation with far less 'stomach acid' potential.

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    Funny true landlord story- my uncle ate $3K + in losses b/c he had a renter with a wife and kids who was late on rent- he couldn't pay up and my uncle felt bad for the renter. Luckily my uncle could absorb the loss without too much hardship but it was upsetting to see his kindness abused.

    Amusingly enough, 20 years later me and my brother ended up losing a few thousand over trying to help a homeless friend of his with four kids. Life is tough that way, no good deed goes unpunished. I'm just happy we've *been* in the position to lose that kind of money. (lol)

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    ^^^ both of your examples emphasize the plus side of using a rental agent like ReMax or Century21 to 'interface' with your tenants. It keeps the landlord - tenant relationship professional, as well as maintaining 'distance'. Yes it costs a bit of extra money, but it also spares the landlord personal pleas / excuses from still resident tenants, spares the landlord the need to impersonate 'Snidely Whiplash' regarding back rent or other 'enforcement' measures, as well as sparing the landlord potential revenge by ex-tenants.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    ^ Lol. I used Remax. The lady( wouldn't recommend to anyone). You have to pay them a 20% fee every moth to manage the property. I didn't opt for that because my tenants were in their late 60's and the best ones I've had.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Of course, on the pragmatic side, most younger people now have less ability to save up down payment money than their parents or grandparents did, due to stagnant / lower pay rates but rising costs of 'necessities'. And, obviously, the 'easy credit' era NINJA mortgages their parents were able to obtain have now given way to income verification, debt to income ratio analysis, credit rating checks, etc. Thus for younger people who do wish to 'stay in one place', the 'hurdles' which must now be 'jumped' to gain approval for mortgage financing are higher.
    Bingo! Right on the money. Add to that, the tremendous under-employment our new college graduates are experiencing and you have a generation that is putting off accumulation of wealth while they just deal with diminished incomes and expanded student debt.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Melonie,

    Is there much of a demand for rentals 'south of the border'?

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    Is there much of a demand for rentals 'south of the border'?
    When I first moved down here a few years back, the main demand for rental units came from short term vacationers ... i.e. rent by the week was common.

    However, these days, there is a growing demand for long term rentals. This is, at least in part, due to the increasing number of ex-pats. As a result, local rent prices for 'nice' furnished apartments have now risen to the $5-600 per month ballpark, and whole house rent prices have risen to the $800-$1000 ballpark. These price levels are about double what they were a few years ago.

    As far as real estate investing goes in this 'neck of the woods', the latest trend is for a well 'connected' developer to buy an Oceanside tract of land a mile or so outside the town / city, to gate off the property, to put in proper paved roads, street lights, water and septic etc., to invest in a marina + seaside bar and restaurant, and to then sell parcels of land for residential construction to ex-pats with money. Part of the purchase deal is for the buyers to commit to paying the 'compound' owner a monthly fee for water, sewer, 'security', etc. In other words, an upscale version of the 'mobile home park' business model.


    Add to that, the tremendous under-employment our new college graduates are experiencing and you have a generation that is putting off accumulation of wealth while they just deal with diminished incomes and expanded student debt.
    Some would argue that it is no longer a matter of 'putting off' accumulation of wealth, but an out and out inability to accumulate wealth under today's 'globalized' economies and labor markets. Obviously, carrying a significant amount of student loan debt only compounds the problem.

    But, whatever the actual reasons may be, younger Americans being unable to set aside enough money to amass a $40,000 ( or whatever ) down payment, and younger Americans being unable to earn enough after-tax money to be able to afford a $1000 a month mortgage payment on top of 'necessary' expenses, pretty much prices them out of real estate markets in any 'desirable' areas. This essentially leaves two alternatives, renting or continuing to live with parents.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-14-2015 at 03:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    All true. The rate of home ownership in the U.S. has been going DOWN. Is that a good or bad thing ? Depends who you talk to. Banks generally say: " GOOD " cuz they like a low rate of mortgage default. So do their shareholders. But community banks are failing and closing at the rate of one per day.

    In NYC , 2/3 of the residents rent. In the Bronx the rate is 80 %. One problem is that NOT owning a home makes wealth accumulation very difficult. The average net worth for blacks and Latinos is currently about 10% that of the average white in the U.S. The difference is the glaring disparity in the rates of home ownership among these groups.
    Likewise the richest age group in the U.S. is people aged 65 to 74 and a big reason is how many of them own at least one house.

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    Default Re: Rental properties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    All true. The rate of home ownership in the U.S. has been going DOWN. Is that a good or bad thing ? Depends who you talk to. Banks generally say: " GOOD " cuz they like a low rate of mortgage default. So do their shareholders. But community banks are failing and closing at the rate of one per day.
    Here's a brief breakdown of what has faced the smaller banks:
    [snip]
    Ten states concentrated in the western, midwestern, and southeastern United States--areas where the housing market had experienced strong growth in the prior decade--each experienced 10 or more commercial bank or thrift (bank) failures between 2008 and 2011. The failures of small banks (those with less than $1 billion in assets) in these states were largely driven by credit losses on commercial real estate (CRE) loans, particularly loans secured by real estate to finance land development and construction. Many of the failed banks had often pursued aggressive growth strategies using nontraditional, riskier funding sources and exhibited weak underwriting and credit administration practices. The Department of the Treasury and the Financial Stability Forum's Working Group on Loss Provisioning observed that earlier recognition of credit losses could have potentially lessened the impact of the crisis. The accounting model used for estimating credit losses is based on historical loss rates, which were low in the prefinancial crisis years. In part due to these accounting rules, loan loss allowances were not adequate to absorb the wave of credit losses that occurred once the financial crisis began. Banks had to recognize these losses through a sudden series of increases (provisions) to the loan loss allowance that reduced earnings and regulatory capital. In December 2012, the Financial Accounting Standards Board issued a proposal for public comment for a loan loss provisioning model that is more forward looking and would incorporate a broader range of credit information. This would result in banks establishing earlier recognition of loan losses for the loans they underwrite and could incentivize prudent risk management practices. It should also help address the cycle of losses and failures that emerged in the recent crisis as banks were forced to increase loan loss allowances and raise capital when they were least able to do so.[snip] http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-13-704T
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