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Thread: Gay Marriage

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Let's also not forget about those Christians who minister to sex workers non-judgmental and help them access services. Let's not forget about those Christians who voted for same sex marriage and performed wedding ceremonies gratis, for couples who were afraid that their marriage license would be taken away. Let's not forget about those Christians who lobbied for same sex couples to be able to adopt.

    Let's definitely not forget about them, because stripping anyone of their rights affects EVERYONE in that class.

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  3. #102
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by kirakonstantin View Post
    Let's also not forget about those Christians who minister to sex workers non-judgmental and help them access services. Let's not forget about those Christians who voted for same sex marriage and performed wedding ceremonies gratis, for couples who were afraid that their marriage license would be taken away. Let's not forget about those Christians who lobbied for same sex couples to be able to adopt.

    Let's definitely not forget about them, because stripping anyone of their rights affects EVERYONE in that class.
    I'm not condemning all Christians. Only the ones who want to force their beliefs on everyone else, whether it's banning same-sex marriage or closing down all strip clubs. There are many Christians I respect and admire. I just don't want anyone forcing their beliefs on me or anyone else.

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  5. #103
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Please let's not get into a religious/political discussion on this.


    YAY FOR GAY MARRIAGE! THIS IS AWESOME! FOCUS ON THAT! YAY!


    Not gonna lied, I cried when I saw it on the news!





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    Audritwo's asshole sees all, knows all. Spurs on armies of orcs. Casts fear into the dwindling races of Middle-Earth. Fears hobbits.

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I'm not condemning all Christians. Only the ones who want to force their beliefs on everyone else, whether it's banning same-sex marriage or closing down all strip clubs. There are many Christians I respect and admire. I just don't want anyone forcing their beliefs on me or anyone else.
    Yet....you want to force someone to make a gay wedding cake despite their personal beliefs. Yup, makes sense.

    As a bisexual woman I'm elated by the Supreme Court ruling yet very sad some in our community are becoming/have become everything we have always been against.

  7. #105
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    If you have such a big problem with a baker being required to treat gay couples the same as everyone else, then you should talk to the Supreme Court justices. I had no say in the matter.

  8. #106
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    I'm Jewish and if I were to ever get married, I know I would not like it if one baker after another refused to bake a wedding cake for me because it's "against their religion" to bake a cake for a Jewish wedding.

  9. #107
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I'm Jewish and if I were to ever get married, I know I would not like it if one baker after another refused to bake a wedding cake for me because it's "against their religion" to bake a cake for a Jewish wedding.
    Ha, well I've experienced a Hasidic Jew completely ignoring me in a store and refusing to serve me because I was holding hands with my girlfriend. I've had the same thing happen in Chinatown when me and my black friend were browsing in a store and were actually refused service. So no, Christians are not the only ones who discriminate.

  10. #108
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I'm Jewish and if I were to ever get married, I know I would not like it if one baker after another refused to bake a wedding cake for me because it's "against their religion" to bake a cake for a Jewish wedding.
    How would you feel if a Palestinian went into a Jewish bakery and demanded a "Free Palestine" cake?

  11. #109
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    If I was the baker, I would bake it for them.

  12. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoolaTwister View Post
    Ha, well I've experienced a Hasidic Jew completely ignoring me in a store and refusing to serve me because I was holding hands with my girlfriend. I've had the same thing happen in Chinatown when me and my black friend were browsing in a store and were actually refused service. So no, Christians are not the only ones who discriminate.
    I'm just as much opposed to Jews who refuse to serve gays as I am to Christians who do that.

  13. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I'm not condemning all Christians. Only the ones who want to force their beliefs on everyone else, whether it's banning same-sex marriage or closing down all strip clubs. There are many Christians I respect and admire. I just don't want anyone forcing their beliefs on me or anyone else.
    What you're not understanding is that this is EXACTLY what you're doing. It's creating a hierarchy in protected classes, where none should exist.

    Your comments about Christians limiting access to contraception and who lobby to shut down strip clubs has nothing to do with same sex marriage and only serves to poison the conversation. You know that your audience is mostly young, female dancers and this is nothing more than an intellectually dishonest attempt to skew the conversation in your favor using a strawman argument. And even finishing it with the classic "I can't be anti Christian, because I have Christian friends."

    Forcing businesses to either service events that conflict with their religious beliefs or face bankruptcy and the loss of their business is more than forcing beliefs.

    We'd all be sympathetic with a gay owned bakery refusing to bake a cake for a "sanctity of marriage rally and we'd be fine with them turning it down. Turn it around the other way and that hierarchy becomes painfully clear.

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  15. #112
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Should a business be allowed to refuse to serve African-Americans or Jews if it was against their religion?

  16. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Should a business be allowed to refuse to serve African-Americans or Jews if it was against their religion?
    Two strawman fallacies here. The first being that the businesses have no problem with homosexual customers but are not willing to sell products for same sex weddings. Also, show me one legally recognized religion that openly espouses racism as a tenet of their belief.

    If you can't argue with out using logical fallacies, you have no argument.

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  18. #114
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Forcing businesses to either service events that conflict with their religious beliefs or face bankruptcy and the loss of their business is more than forcing beliefs.
    ^^^ This was my intended point when I mentioned the first amendment's ( supposed ) protection of the free exercise of religion. The 'modern' question, of course, is whether the legal 'privelege' of being allowed to operate a business by the gov't now requires the business owner to 'leave his personal religious convictions' at the door. The recent court decisions in this regard, and recent enforcement actions by the gov't, have been contradictory to say the least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirakonstantin View Post
    Two strawman fallacies here. The first being that the businesses have no problem with homosexual customers but are not willing to sell products for same sex weddings. Also, show me one legally recognized religion that openly espouses racism as a tenet of their belief.

    If you can't argue with out using logical fallacies, you have no argument.
    No, they're not straw-man fallacies or logical fallacies. You're just saying that to avoid answering my question. All religions are"legally recognized" in the United States, based on the First Amendment. There are people who are racist, based on their religious beliefs. There are also people who are anti-semitic based on their religious beliefs. Now please answer my question. Should a business be allowed to refuse to serve African-Americans or Jews if it is against their religion?

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Kirakonstantin, let's get gay married

  21. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No, they're not straw-man fallacies or logical fallacies. You're just saying that to avoid answering my question. All religions are"legally recognized" in the United States, based on the First Amendment. There are people who are racist, based on their religious beliefs. There are also people who are anti-semitic based on their religious beliefs. Now please answer my question. Should a business be allowed to refuse to serve African-Americans or Jews if it was against their religion?
    No, no, no. Not all religions are legally recognized. http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm. You can't just decide that you're a Fonzarelite one day to excuse why you're entitled to something.

    You're pitching up a strawman, because there is no legally recognized religious organization in the US that includes racism as one of its tenants.

    This is about Christianity and same sex marriage.

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  23. #118
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    ^^^ also some religions are apparently more 'legally recognized' than others ... examples Amish are exempt from SSI tax, and some US courts have allowed decisions based on tenets of Muslim Sharia law.

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by HoolaTwister View Post
    Kirakonstantin, let's get gay married
    I'm down with one condition...


    I'm baking the fucking cake!

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  26. #120
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ also some religions are apparently more 'legally recognized' than others ... examples Amish are exempt from SSI tax, and some US courts have allowed decisions based on tenets of Muslim Sharia law.
    Amish is not a religion. The Amish are a culture who practice the Mennonite religion.

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    ^^^ you are semantically correct. But the US gov't uses the term Amish when referring to exemption forms for SSI, the ACA, etc.

    However, a Mennonite owned furniture business was recently refused an exemption from having to pay for ACA compliant contraception benefits for their employees ... which circles back to my point about the religious convictions of business owners now being forced to be 'left at the door' as a condition of operating said business.

  28. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ you are semantically correct. But the US gov't uses the term Amish when referring to exemption forms for SSI, the ACA, etc.
    It's slightly more than semantic. While Amish are Mennonites, not all Mennonites are Amish. It's also not just Mennonites who are exempted from paying Social Security taxes.

    https://faq.ssa.gov/link/portal/3401...Security-taxes

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe...cle/amish-who/

    Not posting this to be argumentative, but rather an educational post as these religions and cultures and not well known. It's always good to learn something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    However, a Mennonite owned furniture business was recently refused an exemption from having to pay for ACA compliant contraception benefits for their employees ... which circles back to my point about the religious convictions of business owners now being forced to be 'left at the door' as a condition of operating said business.
    You mean Conestoga Wood, the Mennonite cabinet company? They were involved in the same case as Hobby Lobby and the Court found in their favor.

    http://mennoworld.org/2014/06/30/new...for-conestoga/

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    I'm an atheist and an ally, but, IMHO, I still see a need for the state legislatures to try to create some sort of balance here. This isn't like a 7-11 refusing to sell a pack of gum to a gay couple. Making a wedding cake, playing music, performing a ceremony, all contain an element of personal, artistic creation. These things are not products to be sold, but services to be performed. Personal services contracts require two agreeing parties. There needs to be some accommodation and understanding from both sides and to recognize this slight, but important difference.

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage

    You mean Conestoga Wood, the Mennonite cabinet company? They were involved in the same case as Hobby Lobby and the Court found in their favor.
    Precisely. This was the basis for my earlier point that recent court decisions have been controversial ... and would appear to depend more on who the 'aggrieved' party is rather than the equal application of a common underlying principle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Precisely. This was the basis for my earlier point that recent court decisions have been controversial ... and would appear to depend more on who the 'aggrieved' party is rather than the equal application of an underlying principle.
    You said: "However, a Mennonite owned furniture business was recently refused an exemption from having to pay for ACA compliant contraception benefits for their employees ... which circles back to my point about the religious convictions of business owners now being forced to be 'left at the door' as a condition of operating said business."

    Do you have any idea what you're even talking about? Conestoga Wood won. They didn't have to leave their religious convictions at the door.

    I'm kind of starting to wonder about you...

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