IMO, $13 an hour is too high. I think $10 or $11 is reasonable, and $7.25 is too low. There needs to be a medium where workers get paid decent wages, but are still affordable for the business.





IMO, $13 an hour is too high. I think $10 or $11 is reasonable, and $7.25 is too low. There needs to be a medium where workers get paid decent wages, but are still affordable for the business.
They were surprised because that study was a complete anomaly based on previous studies. Looking further into it, it was also deeply flawed. It didn't include about 40% of the minimum wage workforce at all in the area, and it also eliminated most employers that operated across multiple sites for some reason (such as fast food chains and retailers). The very people we're supposed to be looking at in such a study were eliminated from it.
First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald's don't. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle's minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones -- right now, a worker at a company with more than 500 employees is guaranteed $13.50 an hour, while a worker at a company with fewer than 500 employees is guaranteed only $11 an hour -- these workers' exclusion from the study's results is an especially germane problem (note that low-wage workers in Seattle have had an incentive to switch from small firms to large firms since the minimum wage started rising).
There's also this:
http://www.epi.org/publication/the-h...mum-wage-incr/
But hey, who you gonna believe? A study that says everyone is losing money and it sucks...or your own lying ears when everyone you talk to there (except corporations) is pretty happy with the deal?
I'm personally tired of subsidizing fast food joints and Walmart with my tax dollars...if they aren't profitable without my tax money, they shouldn't be in business.
Seriously, why do anti-minimum wage people hate the free market?
Last edited by KatyBoleyn; 07-05-2017 at 05:29 PM.
"Daily pay ALL the things!"
[email protected] - Skype: BoleynModels - "If you haven't heard a rumor by 10am, start one."





The minimum wage here in Wisconsin is still $7.25. It hasn't been raised since 2008. I don't know how anybody can live on that. The cost of living here is cheap compared to a lot of places, but still.
MOOSE MUFFINS ! If you bothered to READ their study and the follow-up articles that Vigdor has submitted to a variety of media you would clearly see that A. the study was based on data collected by the State of Washington ( not the Club For Growth or Heritage Foundation ) covering almost every worker who receives a W-2. McDonald"s and other major franchises are well known for having EVERYONE work ON THE BOOKS. B. Vigdor's colleagues at the University of Washington (who worked with him on the study) conducted their own survey of 500 licensed Seattle businesses , many of them with MORE THAN ONE LOCATION ! Owners of these chains were MORE LIKELY to report cutting jobs compared to one location companies.
Where the potential gaps in the study exist ( freely admitted by Vigdor and his colleagues ) are with contractors i.e. people in the "gig" economy or those working off the books.
Were there prior studies showing that increases in the minimum wage had a minimal effect on employment ? Yes, but those studies involved STATE-WIDE increases and the increases were much more moderate than Seattle's jump to $11 and then $13 an hour.
If you have read MY prior posts in this forum over the years you would see that I have repeatedly and consistently supported sensible, moderate increases in the minimum wage putting me at odds with many conservatives and free-market economists. I support increases that employers can absorb and adjust to. As I've said : " O.K. so we pay a nickel more for a Big Mac and a dime more for a pair of shorts." Prior studies dealt with sensible , moderate increases in the minimum wage and showed that when one state had a sensible increase it did NOT result in an exodus of employers and jobs to neighboring states that did not have an increase. Contrast that with tax and regulatory policy which is much more likely to result in employers and jobs going to greener pastures.
The REAL problem is that most advocates of $13 or even $15 an hour tout it as a way to address income inequality. If that is the real objective then it is doomed to failure. Because that is neither the root cause nor the cure for income inequality. The REAL cure is corporate tax reform to enable them to give American workers the REAL wage increase they have been denied for going on 17 years. Real wages have not increased since 2000. Another REAL cure is Education Reform to train American workers to fill many good paying jobs that are currently unfilled. So is radical reform of the H1-B Visa program where American workers are forced to train their lower wage replacements before being laid off. So is radical tax reform that will force the Warren Buffets and John Kerrys of this country to pay more than 8 to 12 % of their income in taxes.
Last edited by Eric Stoner; 07-06-2017 at 10:06 AM.
I am sorry but it has been repeatedly reported and posted in this forum : You are not supposed to "live" on the minimum wage. That is why we have an Earned Income Tax Credit. And SNAP ( formerly known as Food Stamps ) and subsidized rents, Medicaid and other programs designed to help the working poor. And I have always supported helping the working poor. If for no other reason than to paraphrase the great Emil Faber : "Working is good. " It is a positive in and of itself for the individual and for society at large.
O.K. for extra credit - Who knows who Emil Faber was ? Cue the theme from Jeopardy.




I see you're a fan of 1 of my 3 top favorite comedy movies. "Emil Faber" was a fictitious founder of "Faber University" in the movie "National Lampoon Animal House." Opening scene shows the statue with "knowledge is good" quote.
Another bit of trivia: Much of the college scenes in Animal House were filmed in Boring, Oregon. How apropos !!
I'm right 96% of the time.I don't sweat
the other 5% .......................
All of these things are subsidies paid primarily by the middle class to support unprofitable corporations. The people that should be supporting the "working poor" are their employers. I don't shop at Walmart or eat at McDonalds. Why should the Walton family get a thin dime of my money by virtue of the fact they don't pay their workers enough to live? This is pure anti-capitalism bullshit...social welfare for the rich and poor and the middle pays the price.
It also simply sucks for the poor getting these things. They have that much extra paperwork and people to answer to just to stay alive and on the straight and narrow. So many extra hours per day wasted on just keeping up. Then they can't even enjoy a good spliff or some random pee test will take it all away. Its degrading and humiliating...and pointless.
The solution is simple...a rule that says if you employ someone, you owe them a living wage. If you can't hack it, you will be replaced by a business that can. I won't shed a tear if poor Walmart goes under and my town square shops return.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm all about some good social welfare...as a fallback position though and not a default one for those that are working.
"Daily pay ALL the things!"
[email protected] - Skype: BoleynModels - "If you haven't heard a rumor by 10am, start one."
I am sorry but again you are deliberately misunderstanding me and misrepresenting my positions. It is NOT the job of an employer to pay a "living wage " or be "socially responsible ". It is their job to make money. Period. Legally and ethically ( broadly defined ) but that is their function.
We are all responsible for helping the poor. Why are they poor ? Because they don't have enough money to live decently. So the best way to help them is to GIVE THEM MONEY. I have long supported a negative income tax to make sure that the poor , preferably the working poor , have a decent life. We could replace a laundry list of government programs and do more good at a lower cost.
Who has ranted about corporate welfare and crony capitalism more than me ?
I don't shop at Walmart either but it's because for the most part they sell cheap garbage.





Minimum wage is damn near impossible to survive on. You have to work a full-time and part-time to survive here. That's what I did until I went to sw full-time. Going up to $8.50 in my state. I still have no interest in returning to the vanilla job market.
And that's where we fundamentally disagree.
A reasonable degree of a person's time and efforts ("full time") should translate to a wage that's enough to provide all their basic needs. In the US, this is pegged at 40 hours a week without allowance for anything. In Europe, its fewer hours with generous allowances for child-rearing, vacation, and sick days.
Employers need to bear the "true cost" of having an employee at a minimum standard determined by current law. Being mandatory, everyone is playing by the same rules so competition is a level playing field. Companies are absolutely still free to make a profit any way they wish, without government subsidies that we pay for.
I'd say in most job markets, $13.00/hr + basic benefits is a good start. In urban areas, you can afford to go a lot higher. I've done the books for fast food restaurants...I know exactly what they can afford.
If you want to talk about negative taxation and universal minimum income, we can talk about that also. I'm right there with you. Right now though, minimum wage increases are what would play better in Peoria.
For what its worth, I also support schemes where corporations are monetarily (at least partially) responsible for the true costs of their environmental damage as well. Again it comes down to why the middle-class taxpayer should be responsible for cleaning upper-class messes.
"Daily pay ALL the things!"
[email protected] - Skype: BoleynModels - "If you haven't heard a rumor by 10am, start one."
^^^ You are entitled to your opinion but the facts and history bear me out.
There was just a study published that showed that an excessive minimum wage results in LESS employment.
You are right that many European countries have much more generous social welfare than we do. They also have much higher taxation and stagnant economies.
And the benefits that you applaud are provided for the most part by GOVERNMENT , not employers.
Your proposals and philosophy have directly led to increased out-sourcing ; more hiring off the books and increased use of the um , er, undocumented.
Increased minimum wages may play better but NOT when people know all the facts. In Maine, restaurant workers lobbied for a LOWER minimum wage. Why ? Because they feared exactly what happened in Seattle. Fewer jobs , fewer hours and less income.
Rather than worry so much about the minimum wage the objective ought to be to get people OUT of minimum wage jobs. Which is why it is much more cost-effective to focus on education and job training.
What is wrong with paying minimum wage to trainees ? They don't know anything and COST the company money until they learn how to do their job.
Or high-schoolers ? Or retirees who want to earn a little extra money ?
For those dependent on a minimum wage job for survival ( and there are too many such folks ) a negative income tax would be the best way to help them maintain a decent standard of living. And yet we ought to be careful not to destroy the incentive to move on and UP.Most minimum wage workers are NOT earning minimum wage within two years of being hired. They get raises and promotions and/or move to better paying jobs.
Rather than focus on punishing success ( higher taxes on the top 10 % ) why not focus on raising the condition of the bottom 90 % ?
If ,as you say , fast food eateries can afford to pay $13 an hour , plus benefits then why are they automating so much ?
As to your last point , which btw is beyond the scope of THIS topic and discussion , I agree with you. Polluters ought to pay for cleaning up their own mess.
^ That is true. I wasted 2 and a half years at a minimum wage job with no significant raises. A 5 cent raise means nothing after that long with the cost of rent, food, and utilities rising. It's a shame, really. Unfortunately I do not see things improving for the poor.
According to Bankrate.com 44 million Americans have "side hustles ". 86% work at their second job or sideline at least once a month and 36% of them earn at least $500 a month. Baby boomers aged 53 to 62 are most likely to earn AT LEAST an extra $1000 a month. Most analysts say that a lot of this is "off the books" and some is dancing and ahem other "adult activity" engaged in anywhere from once a week to once a month.
I TOLD YOU SO ! :
The $15 minimum wage in NYC is killing vulnerable small businesses . Especially in the restaurant biz. thanks to a separate wage hike for tipped workers. 3/4 of the restaurants in NYC have had to cut employee hours. 1/3 eliminated jobs last year and plan to cut staff this year.
Then there are the dozens of retail stores closing. And many others that have reduced hours and laid off personnel.
And last but not least are the businesses that never started. Storefront vacancies in SOME NYC areas ( including the 50's in Manhattan ) are at near record levels. Now , not all of that is a result of the increased minimum wage. Much is a result of overbuilding of commercial space , high taxes ( especially the commercial real estate tax passed on to tenants ), high rents and utilities and a labyrinth of rules and regs.





https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/r...stry-thriving/
REPORT: AFTER FIVE YEARS OF MINIMUM WAGE INCREASES, NEW YORK CITY’S RESTAURANT INDUSTRY IS THRIVING
INFLATION-ADJUSTED WAGES RISE 20-28% FOR RESTAURANT WORKERS
New York, NY—Five years after New York State passed the first of several laws to gradually raise its minimum wage to $15 an hour, New York City’s restaurant industry continues to thrive, with strong growth in restaurant industry employment, wages, and the number of establishments around the city, according to a new report released today by the Center for New York City Affairs at The New School and the National Employment Law Project.
The report’s findings of a prospering restaurant industry are in sharp contrast to the “sky is falling” rhetoric of industry lobbyists who warned of massive job losses, $20 Big Macs, and shuttered restaurants. The report offers a first-of-its-kind assessment of restaurant employment and earnings over the entire period of the city’s historic minimum wage increases, during which the wage floor rose from $7.25 to $15.00 an hour.
The restaurant industry has the highest proportion of workers affected by the minimum wage of any industry. Researchers analyzed comprehensive employment, wage, and restaurant establishment data between 2013 and 2018 to assess the impact of the higher minimum wage on New York City’s restaurant industry. They found that during this period, New York City saw a strong economic expansion of the restaurant industry, outpacing national growth in employment, annual wages, and the number of both limited- and full-service restaurant establishments.
Read more:
https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/r...stry-thriving/





and in Maine, where the minimum wage was raised to $11 an hour:
https://mainebeacon.com/maine-breaks...ases-continue/
Maine breaks new employment record as minimum wage increases continue
Despite dire predictions from opponents of the 2016 minimum wage referendum, the Department of Labor announced Monday that Maine’s unemployment rate has stayed below four percent for nearly four years. In August, unemployment dipped to 2.9%, a new record low.
This streak is double the previous state record of almost two years, when the unemployment rate in Maine remained below four percent from September 1999 to July 2001.
Maine’s unemployment rate has remained under the national average since the minimum wage law took effect in 2017, after a successful referendum in November 2016, when the wage was $7.50 an hour. Last January, the minimum wage increased from $10 to $11 an hour. It will reach $12 next year, with subsequent yearly increases based on the cost of living. The DOL noted Monday that the non-agriculture and private sectors have each seen a gain of almost 7,000 jobs respectively since August 2018.
Read more...
https://mainebeacon.com/maine-breaks...ases-continue/





Yup.
https://nypost.com/2019/09/29/15-min...c-restaurants/
Notwithstanding the powder puff piece that eagle posted, which went through ridiculous mental gymnastics in bootstrapping apples to oranges national stats and a 6% NYC sales growth statistic, the Post actually dug in by surveying over 300 NYC restaurants. The overwhelming majority have cut staff and reduced hours. Some are even cutting more labor intensive menu items or closing altogether. This makes sense since restaurant margins are always razor thin under the best of conditions and even more so in NYC, where food competition is fierce.
Oh, and as far as his Maine post goes, what was not answered is how much lower unemployment could have been in the absence of the higher minimum wage. Maine is a tiny state to begin with, with only 1.33 million people, so it's questionable how many people were even impacted to begin with. But the most telling stat is the unemployment rate of 16-24 year olds, which has actually risen since the minimum wage hikes started. I guess he missed that too in his hard hitting research.![]()
Easy does it. No need to get personal. You are right that the studies Eagle cited to are incomplete. They say nothing about restaurant profitability and nothing about REDUCED hours and REDUCED incomes for restaurant workers.
Just in the last two years New York has seen legendary restaurants close : Le Cirque , Public , Nick and Toni's ( sniff - a personal fave ),Pok Pok Ny ( great low cost Thai that just couldn't pay higher wages and stay open ). I am leaving others like The Four Seasons and Carnegie Deli off the list because they had other issues than just labor costs.
Nationwide some major chains have folded or gone into bankruptcy : Bob Evans , Ruby Tuesday's, Logan's Road House among more than a dozen major chains to go el foldo.
It also increases the incentives to hire the um … er … partially documented.





I read that the primary reason why some restaurants in New York City, including Nick and Toni's, closed is because of rising rent costs.
https://patch.com/new-york/upper-wes...des-will-close
The following article has some of the figures:"The cost of doing business in the city no longer allows us to operate our business,'' managing partner Mark Smith told Eater. "I'm proud of what we accomplished but our lease was up and we tried to negotiate, but the economics have become untenable."
https://www.foodrepublic.com/2016/09...just-the-rent/
A rent increase from $784k to $3.7 million or from $350k to $1.1 million probably has a much bigger impact on a restaurant business, than increasing the pay for the lowest paid workers by $5 to $7.The Seagram Building’s owner, RFR Holding, is said to have wanted to raise the Four Seasons’ annual rent to a market rate of $3.7 million from $784,000. Mark Grossich, who took over the Campbell Apartment space 17 years ago, was paying $350,000 a year and offered to pay his landlord, the MTA, $800,000 per year to save his bar. Not enough. Nightlife guru Scott Gerber made a bid for $1.1 million a year, and after a contentious lawsuit with the MTA, Gerber got the deal. Union Square Café’s rent was tripled.
EAGLE ! - Not only did I leave restaurants like The Four Seasons OFF the list of restaurants forced to close but I said it was because they had OTHER ISSUES besides just higher labor costs.
You are partially correct that higher rents are a major issue in NYC restaurant closures BUT when you pile increased labor costs on top of higher rents it accounts for almost ALL of the major closures of otherwise profitable , successful and POPULAR places.
More importantly , NYC has raised the minimum wage a LOT higher than $7. For "fast food " workers who generally do not get tips the minimum wage is now $15 an hour . For food service tipped workers it is $10 an hour with a $5 an hour credit for tips.
The big takeaway is the REDUCED hours for many waiters , waitresses and bartenders resulting in a net loss of income. That's for those whose employer did not lay them off.
Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-03-2019 at 09:33 AM.





I was only using the Four Seasons as an example of how much the rent had increased. A restaurant in a similar situation that was earning $2.5 million a year profit, would go from earning $2.5 million to losing $200,000 a year under the new lease terms offered, based on the Four Seasons rent increase.
The previous article I linked to, stated the New York City restaurant industry was seeing strong growth in employment, wages, and the number of establishments around the city, according to a new report released today by the Center for New York City Affairs at The New School and the National Employment Law Project. Here's the report:
https://www.nelp.org/publication/new...ment-earnings/
Perhaps there were some individual restaurants that were negatively affected by the increased minimum wage, but according to the report, the overall restaurant industry in NYC is doing well. The economic expansion that has been going on for the last 8 - 9 years has helped.
1. You did not consider the source. NELP is far from dispassionate or unbiased. NELP has been lobbying for increased wages for restaurant workers for some time.
Yes, I will acknowledge that they also bring lawsuits to benefit exploited workers which is fine afaic.
2. NELP does not say what methodology they used ; who they surveyed and how. What data are they relying on for their broad pronouncements ?
3. My focus was on the WORKERS and neither you nor NELP say a word about decreased hours ; lay-offs and reduced earnings.
4. Restaurant owners have clearly said that the higher wages have had an impact.
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