View Poll Results: What are your feelings on succeeding without a college education?

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  • A college education is an absolute requirement

    2 4.17%
  • With the right amount of skills and dedication, anyone can succeed in any profession

    12 25.00%
  • A college education is required for some professions

    31 64.58%
  • Other, please explain

    3 6.25%
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Thread: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

  1. #1
    Veteran Member MiraMichele's Avatar
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    Default Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    I posted this on Facebook yesterday and found most of my friends there feel very similar to me. I want to ask a broader range of people, so I'm posting here. I say that you can succeed in any profession based on skills and informal learning alone. What is your take on this?

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    Featured Member luvnrockets's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    No way you can succeed in ANY profession without a college education. You can't be a doctor or a lawyer, to name a few, without meeting ethics and licensing standards. Not to mention you won't be insured. No respectable employer will hire you. It's pretty silly to claim that you can be a doctor just by learning your own way. I mean, really?
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Well, this is tricky. Is a college education required for certain professions? To be employed, yes. To work in that profession, no, if you're the CEO. Unless you grew up around a family business, chances are you'll be a better CEO if you were an employee beforehand to see what that business was lacking in order to make a superior competitor. And if it's your passion, which is often the reason people start businesses, then chances are you will have taken college classes on that subject because it interests you. And you probably once were an employee.

    To answer this question, you have to ask if being an entrepreneur is considered a separate entity rather than a specific profession, or do you see it as a job in a profession? People will be viewing this question through different lenses so there will be no real consensus.

    A lot of people seem very opposed to college. Or they have their opinions on how stupid it is. I don't understand why people aren't audibly opposed to someone paying for yoga classes then when they can just do it online lol. I have gotten those type of responses, and others on here have too (there was just a thread on this). But is it the case? No. It can be. For the wrong reasons, yes. Maybe someone wants to pay 80k for an art degree and they see it as worth the cost. Maybe someone else in the same program thinks it was a bad investment.

    I went to public school for undergrad and it was a great investment because it was quality and cheap. Worth it for me? Yes. I still have received hate comments like oh you have to be dumb to go to college now it's just a business. Yes, it can be. But it depends. My nursing program cost= $6,600 for tuition and books for 2 years (total costs) and the average RN pay at Cedars-Sinai (a hospital near me) is 95k per year for 3 12h shifts per week, along with free tuition to continue your education. Bad investment? No. Personal opinion? Yes.
    Last edited by Velveteen.Rabbit; 03-22-2016 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    Veteran Member MiraMichele's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by Velveteen.Rabbit View Post
    Well, this is tricky. Is a college education required for certain professions? To be employed, yes. To work in that profession, no, if you're the CEO. If it's your passion, which is often the reason people start businesses, then chances are you will have taken college classes on that subject because it interests you. Is being an entrepreneur considered a separate entity than a specific profession, or do you see it as a job in a profession? People will be viewing this question through different lenses so there will be no real consensus.
    I like your explanation because it does explain opening up your other options. You can't be a doctor or lawyer usually because of having to have a degree, but you can find ways of by-passing the system, you can also move somewhere that it can be acceptable to not have a college degree to practice, and become highly successful there.

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    Veteran Member Dominic.2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    The answer is, in my opinion**, nuanced. It depends on what the degree is in and what field the person is achieving "complete success" as you put it. In entry level positions the degree can stand in for work experience, but that's not what you are asking. In scenarios where you 'run' and 'own' your own business, having a degree or credentials (IME, working with various founders as an independent contractor) isn't really required by your investors, partners, or your customers since they figure you have skin in the game, and are less likely to "walk away" or be fired like you could be if you were a "hired gun." Those types of people also figure you are going to work your ass off, since your company is your own baby. Whereas that "hired gun," brought in from the outside, would likely not even be considered, let alone succeed without degrees (BS/BA and an MBA) and credentials and verifiable past business successes. So it's not uncommon (IME) for a business owner to be "less degreed" than the staff he or she hires later.

    In STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, math) a degree (BS/MS and less commonly a PhD) serves to show that you have a "rigorous" background in your field or related field. The undergrad curriculum teaches you how to think and learn and the graduate curriculum teaches you how to conduct research and develop ideas into something you can iteratively test and improve. ("science is falsifiable"). So in STEM careers, taking time to get a degree (over a high school education) is often worthwhile.

    In other scenarios, the degree might not be worth the paper it was printed on nor worth the cost you or your parents paid.

    **and free advice on the internet is worth exactly that.


    ETA: like luvnrockets said, for some careers, the degree is actually part of a long program that partly resembles an apprenticeship or a trade program (medicine and law fit here as does "Professional Engineer" P.E. types who certify their work, like some mechanical engineers or civil engineers do who are licensed -- same idea -- here you certify to the public that you are competent to perform this service according to public safety.)
    Last edited by Dominic.2; 03-22-2016 at 08:41 PM. Reason: added more, spelling

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by MiraMichele View Post
    I like your explanation because it does explain opening up your other options. You can't be a doctor or lawyer usually because of having to have a degree, but you can find ways of by-passing the system, you can also move somewhere that it can be acceptable to not have a college degree to practice, and become highly successful there.
    Im pretty sure you need to have completed medical school in every country you practice in. I have met doctors from around the world, and visiting ones.

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    Veteran Member Dominic.2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    tl;dr One common trait of (some) successful people is persistence. I'd rank that above degrees and education in achieving success, but I'd hate to do it without the education.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic.2 View Post
    tl;dr One common trait of (some) successful people is persistence. I'd rank that above degrees and education in achieving success, but I'd hate to do it without the education.
    Yasss! And a lot of people will be threatened by your persistence and try to bring you down by calling you names like arrogant, bigoted, and self-absorbed. Or they'll try to find some way to downplay your hard work. So not only persistence but also the ability to allow things to roll off your shoulders.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by MiraMichele View Post
    I like your explanation because it does explain opening up your other options. You can't be a doctor or lawyer usually because of having to have a degree, but you can find ways of by-passing the system, you can also move somewhere that it can be acceptable to not have a college degree to practice, and become highly successful there.
    Most people in the developed world don't consider success to be living in a 3rd world country making 3rd world wages.
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    No it's not if you're planning to be self-employed or perhaps to work your way up in a company from the bottom... It is for a lot of other things though. A lot of places you can't even get through the initial 'gatekeeper' without the degree, especially since EVERYBODY has one now.
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    So far, my Bachelor's Degree in Science (Environmental Management) has got me nothing but debt. Everybody has a degree these days, but employers all want you to have experience. There is currently a waiting list to do work experience (unpaid work) with my state Department of Environment. People I know who went to TAFE (community college) seem to actually have been taught practical skills. The TAFE certificate in Conservation and Land Management teaches things that employers are saying they want on job ads (like Driving a 4X4 vehicle, Undertake sampling and testing of water, Suppress wildfire, Recognise flora and fauna among other skills that I'm supposed to have for the jobs I'm applying for.

    I should also mention that Australia has higher wages for all jobs, so it's not a case of get a degree or be forced to work two jobs. An adult working at McDonald's makes AU$37,000 a year here, a bricklayer makes $47,000 and a plumber makes $52,000.
    Last edited by ShyStripper; 03-22-2016 at 07:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    I agree with Velveteen and Dominic. I think it depends on the profession itself. I wouldn't want a self-taught surgeon operating on me. Nor would I want a self-taught pilot who hasn't passed any sort of standardized exam to fly me anywhere (unless I was living on a deserted island in some sort of freak worst case scenario type of situation).

    However, I think that there are many ways to become successful and wealthy without a college education. But that isn't applicable to any profession.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShyStripper View Post
    So far, my Bachelor's Degree in Science (Environmental Management) has got me nothing but debt. Everybody has a degree these days, but employers all want you to have experience.
    I think one of the things that many colleges are terrible at is actually preparing you for employment once you graduate. The business school where I did undergrad pretty much tells students on day 1 that they will have a job upon graduation (and they do). Instead most schools and departments focus on academics and preparing for more academics (grad school) and thats it. The student has to pursue internships and additional training on their own time. On the other hand, trade schools are more focused on preparing the student for a particular trade. And for some folks that is the best option. I mean, if you want to be a welder why not just go to welding school?

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShyStripper View Post
    So far, my Bachelor's Degree in Science (Environmental Management) has got me nothing but debt. Everybody has a degree these days, but employers all want you to have experience. There is currently a waiting list to do work experience (unpaid work) with my state Department of Environment. People I know who went to TAFE (community college) seem to actually have been taught practical skills. The TAFE certificate in Conservation and Land Management teaches things that employers are saying they want on job ads (like Driving a 4X4 vehicle, Undertake sampling and testing of water, Suppress wildfire, Recognise flora and fauna among other skills that I'm supposed to have for the jobs I'm applying for.
    My first degree is also in Wildlife Ecology/Management and I totally agree about the practical skills.
    I got 3 interviews out of school, largely because I had already been lucky enough to have a summer job where I learned 4x4 driving, various trapping methods, etc. I also had a professor as a reference who they all knew taught that stuff, and did 2 semesters worth of practical experiences with him (he took us on a field trip every week to learn a new method). The kids who went to the other campus and got the 'book learning' Conservation Biology degree didn't stand a CHANCE and all have to work for free to get a foot in the door.

    Granted, the positions only pay like $13/hour so I'm MUCH better off just dancing!
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    Featured Member wish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Higher education doesn't hurt anything unless you choose the wrong school or run up too big of a bill perusing said education. I have 2 trades and an Associates degree. I'm not using my degree at the moment. It's in business management. I just don't have the entrepreneur spirt at the moment. Since I've seen life from all sides... Is it necessary... No but life is easier with higher education. Like I worked at a plant before I got my first trade. I made good money but the people with degrees made better money and when it was time to lay off workers with higher positions stayed.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    I would say that a college education and experience in your vanilla field could make you a success in the vanilla world. However, it depends on the field as well. For example, I got my Bachelor's of Science in Real Estate Management because I wanted to get into commercial real estate as well as luxury property management. Also I getting my real estate license as well However, I did several real estate internships and did a brief gig as real estate agent assistant. Meanwhile, I will be getting my Associate's in paralegal studies because I wanted to become a real estate paralegal. Currently, I am just looking for vanilla positions that offer the type of salary and benefits that I want. Sure, I get some good offers but I want the right offers for me. But my investment in my education was worth it But I also have 16 years of work experience in the vanilla work and 12 years of adult work experience. Sometimes, I just feel that I should be doing more but I have been working since I was 14.
    Last edited by DonaDiabla; 03-23-2016 at 04:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Of course it's required for certain professions, but a degree isn't required to succeed. I would say if you want to be an artist or an entrepreneur (for example) definitely take some college level courses to help you build your skill set, but don't go into a mountain of debt for a piece of paper. Among my friends that majored in liberal arts or got open ended degrees without a clear track, they are : teaching English overseas, working as baristas, bartenders, restaurant managers, selling make up from home or they're stay at home moms...paying off their student loans (or getting their hubby to pay them off lol). If a college education was free in the U.S then yeah, everyone should go for whatever they want. Sadly it's not (though it totally should be an our government could afford to make it happen, but whatever.)

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    No. College education is not required for complete success. Maybe back in the previous generations yes however technology is changing all of that.

    Now there are some professions that require degrees and advanced degrees but with or without the degrees you can still be successful. You're not doomed for a life of failure if you don't have a degree. Look at Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg. These men dropped out of freakin Harvard and still made billions. Steve Jobs also dropped out of college and still made billions.

    Yes having a degree is nice but having bankable skills that can take you anywhere is better.

    If you go to college to get a degree (just know you're being trained to work FOR some CEO) - also investing in college has to make financial sense (don't rack up six figure debt then major in some low paying career field). You also have to be certain you will have a job lined up after college. Something like 45% of college grads don't even work in careers that they got their degree in - ex. how many psych major are actually practicing psychology?

    If you don't have a degree then you better learn a trade or hustle and become an entrepreneur - so those are the other two ways to become successful without a degree.
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by wish View Post
    Higher education doesn't hurt anything unless you choose the wrong school or run up too big of a bill perusing said education. I have 2 trades and an Associates degree. I'm not using my degree at the moment. It's in business management. I just don't have the entrepreneur spirt at the moment. Since I've seen life from all sides... Is it necessary... No but life is easier with higher education. Like I worked at a plant before I got my first trade. I made good money but the people with degrees made better money and when it was time to lay off workers with higher positions stayed.
    I've been thinking about this a lot after that other thread. So many people get upset when you tell them you have a degree to where they are just angry about it. But where is the actual harm in having one? College courses are fun! Even if you don't use a degree, if you go to an inexpensive school, what is the loss? I swear no one gets enraged over people paying to go to physical fitness classes when there are free YouTube videos online! So is it not the cost, and is it feeling like "wasted" time instead? No one gets enraged when other people read mediocre books. It can't be time either!

    Ive even had people say in front of me "I'm hot so I didn't have to go to college!" Lol, how are those correlated in any way? You won't be hot forever, so then what will you do? Why does college mean you aren't hot? Wouldn't a triple threat (beauty, brains, ambition) outshine a single threat (beauty)? People are weird AF about their insecurities.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by Velveteen.Rabbit View Post
    I've been thinking about this a lot after that other thread. So many people get upset when you tell them you have a degree to where they are just angry about it. But where is the actual harm in having one? College courses are fun! Even if you don't use a degree, if you go to an inexpensive school, what is the loss? I swear no one gets enraged over people paying to go to physical fitness classes when there are free YouTube videos online! So is it not the cost, and is the time "wasted" instead? No one gets enraged when other people read mediocre books. It can't be time either!

    Ive even had people say in front of me "I'm hot so I didn't have to go to college!" Uhh how are those correlated in ANY way? You won't be hot forever, so then what will you do? Why does college mean you aren't smart? Wouldn't a triple threat (beauty, brains, ambition) rather than just a single threat (beauty)? People are weird AF either insecurities.
    Didn't you already make an entire thread about this?..By the way education =/= ambition or intelligence...the "harm" is a mountain of debt for people who will only make $12/hour or remain unemployed after getting their degree. Not everyone is willing to strip or be an escort and pay those loans off...and if have chosen sex work as a career then wouldn't your time be better spent working, saving and investing? I don't have a problem with anyone who has a degree but I do think they should have realistic expectations and know what they're getting into.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by wednesday86 View Post
    Didn't you already make an entire thread about this?..By the way education =/= ambition or intelligence...the "harm" is a mountain of debt for people who will only make $12/hour or remain unemployed after getting their degree. Not everyone is willing to strip or be an escort and pay those loans off...and if have chosen sex work as a career then wouldn't your time be better spent working, saving and investing? I don't have a problem with anyone who has a degree but I do think they should have realistic expectations and know what they're getting into.
    No that was someone else lol but I commented a lot. Finishing a degree is ambitious and learning does make you intelligent. Other things can do this too but this should all be obvious. No I think all people benefit from schooling whether formal or informal. It's not practical to think you'll be working save days a week to save. Everyone has down time. Stripping and sexwork is hard on the body and you never know when you'll be forced to quit. I don't see very many 40+ women in strip clubs or doing sexwork so that alone should prove this point. Yes any age can make money but most people those ages aren't in adult anymore.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Tbh, the only people I know who have succeeded without college degrees are those who: (1) have very specialized skills who either opened their own businesses or became indispensable in existing ones; (2) commissioned salespeople with a real gift for selling; and (3) girls who married guys who were successful in their careers. But the number of people I know who fall into one of these 3 categories is a lot smaller than the number of people I know who used college degrees to get onto good career tracks. I also know far more people who tried and failed to make it into one of those 3 categories than those who succeeded.

    I say all of this not to sound remotely elitist or discouraging, but to be realistic. A college degree is by no means a guarantee of future success, but not having one stacks the odds heavily against you. Of course the right degrees help as well. It is amazing to me how many people pick degree paths that lead almost nowhere, something which a little advance research should have told them could happen.

    So, in short, IMHO if you don't want your income and/or lifestyle chocies to peak in your 20s (or maybe a little older) and then start a rapid descent soon thereafter, then you either need to have a useful college degree or be REALLY good at something else that you can sell to others.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Tbh, the only people I know who have succeeded without college degrees are those who: (1) have very specialized skills who either opened their own businesses or became indispensable in existing ones; (2) commissioned salespeople with a real gift for selling; and (3) girls who married guys who were successful in their careers. But the number of people I know who fall into one of these 3 categories is a lot smaller than the number of people I know who used college degrees to get onto good career tracks. I also know far more people who tried and failed to make it into one of those 3 categories than those who succeeded.

    I say all of this not to sound remotely elitist or discouraging, but to be realistic. A college degree is by no means a guarantee of future success, but not having one stacks the odds heavily against you. Of course the right degrees help as well. It is amazing to me how many people pick degree paths that lead almost nowhere, something which a little advance research should have told them could happen.

    So, in short, IMHO if you don't want your income and/or lifestyle chocies to peak in your 20s (or maybe a little older) and then start a rapid descent soon thereafter, then you either need to have a useful college degree or be REALLY good at something else that you can sell to others.
    Same here. It's not meant to sound elitist, but there are far too many people who are anti-college and end up unsuccessful to the point where they are in poverty or barely making ends meet. In theory it's a great idea to skip college and open a successful business, but most businesses fail. You have to really know how to run a business, know what the market is missing, and get really high amounts of funding to open the business. That's before you even know if it's successful or not. That seems more risky to me than getting an inexpensive degree or trade from a public school.

    With number 3 on your list, I know a lot of people who did marry rich (common in the older generation of Bay Area people), but most of them ended up divorced with the woman living in a tiny apartment on a budget. Many are extremely depressed because they ended up having a life of luxury and losing it when the man traded her in for someone younger. Those are my moms friends and what I saw growing up. Unhappy, 40+ women who had it all and lost it, who now struggle hard to make ends meet with 2-3 jobs. They weren't expecting to ever be divorced and most took care of themselves. If they had training and experience in a specific career field, this wouldn't have been much of an issue. In fact, I think this is exactly why degrees were pushed on women in my generation (I'm pushing 30). Men are barely marrying and divorcing often. Prenups are the norm. So what will a woman inherit from the wealthy man? Not much.

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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    Neil Gaiman, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Oprah, and plenty others who are considered completely successful dropped out of college. Is it a requirement? No. However, if you aren't naturally brilliant and talented, a college education will certainly help you get ahead.

    Going into debt to get some bullshit online degree could actually work against you. In that case, just skip it and put in the work instead. I've met many people who had online degrees who are working $10/hr. jobs that they could have landed without the online degree.

    There are also plenty of cases where people with little to no college education have made major scientific discoveries that have changed the world. Hedy Lamarr for instance. You can thank her for wireless communication technology.

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  40. #25
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    Default Re: Do you think that a college education is a requirement for complete success?

    A college degree is required for acceptance and advancement in every section of life by the upper middle class and wealthy. Its one of those things that isn't spoken out loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Tourdefranzia View Post
    Neil Gaiman, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Oprah, and plenty others who are considered completely successful dropped out of college

    There are also plenty of cases where people with little to no college education have made major scientific discoveries that have changed the world. Hedy Lamarr for instance. You can thank her for wireless communication technology.
    Aren't those blue moon examples? Very uncommon

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