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Thread: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    The problem is that older people need, on average, much more than 3x the care that the younger people do. Shifting the premium multiple from 3x to 5x just allows insurance companies to more accurately allocate the true costs of care. That way I no longer have to pay higher premiums for five people just to pay for the care of early retirees and other "older" people.

    Oh, and the insurance for a 25 year old is not "free" just because she is on a parent's plan. If it is an individual marketplace plan, then the parent also has to pay a bloated premium on the child's coverage in order to finance the artificially low premiums charged to the aforementioned early retirees. But not all 25 year olds have parents who are able or willing to extend coverage anyway, so let's not assume facts not in evidence.

    Oh yeah, and those numbers are goofy for the following reasons: (1) Many young individuals can get coverage at far lower than 8k per year; and (2) tax credits would also apply unless the older person is wealthy, in which case he/she can afford to pay for his/her medical coverage anyway.
    and the CBO estimates that if that goofy plan you support gets passed, 24 million people will lose their health insurance. If you don't make enough money with your goofy business to make ends meet, then get a job with benefits, instead of taking health insurance away from 24 million people. You could also stop contributing money to your goofy church that protects priests who rape children and fights to take contraception away from women, and use that to pay for your health insurance.

    Since you're incapable of disagreeing with someone without making nasty, condescending comments, this will be my last response to you. I'm placing you on ignore. I should have done this long ago.
    Last edited by eagle2; 05-18-2017 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #102
    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    and the CBO estimates that if that goofy plan you support gets passed, 24 million people will lose their health insurance. If you don't make enough money with your goofy business to make ends meet, then get a job with benefits, instead of taking health insurance away from 24 million people. You could also stop contributing money to your goofy church that protects priests who rape children and fights to take contraception away from women, and use that to pay for your health insurance.

    Since you're incapable of disagreeing with someone without making nasty, condescending comments, this will be my last response to you. I'm placing you on ignore. I should have done this long ago.
    Eagle, as far as I know, the CBO hasn't scored the current version of the bill, which went through a lot of changes since the last version. We should probably wait before the CBO actually issues its score for the current bill before we debate how many people might lose insurance and whether that might be a net positive for many of them.

    As far as the rest, ouch. I just said that your numbers were a bit extreme and they were. I admit that I could have found a better word than "goofy" to convey that message, but there was no need for a meltdown over it.

    But I find your solutions interesting. My church, rapey priests and all, also happens to be the largest charitable organization in the world, doing more good works than I can count for the poorest in this country and in many others, including feeding hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, every single day. For that matter, my small business, as well as the many other small businesses that are being put under strain by all of this, also feed a lot of people in terms of jobs and payments to vendors. So are you suggesting that all of those people should be left hungry so that early retirees can lay on the beach instead of seeking out gainful employment? So these early retirees, many of whom voluntarily reduce their income in order to retire early because someone else now has to pay for their healthcare, have more of a right to my money than hungry children?

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    I've got a neurologist calling and ranting at me the past two mornings. Why can't a large group of people start an insurance company ourselves? One that won't cheat doctors to the point that they aren't making money on their services, but the tests instead. Medicare is being dropped everywhere because they aren't converting basic costs (it isn't just the doctor's time, it's also the time the staff spend on the patient, the insurance, the building and general costs, the training staff have to go through yearly,etc).

    Set this unit up so whoever is head has an income cap based on the economy. Cut out sales reps and keep everything streamlined. Start it so preexisting conditions aren't accepted into a predetermined threshold of money saved is hit. Over all have checks to make sure to make sure there isn't over formatting and everyone is paid fairly. Also have checks like I'm Europe that cap the amount that can be spent on a patient. If you pay $1000 for 60 years you will never pay in a million, so perhaps a million is a good cap. A little over, especially since hopefully premiums won't be $1000, but stops stupid crazy spending on one person.

    Perhaps also have it so insurance for each doctor is processed monthly to help reduce man power instead of per patient. Just some ideas. Anyone have thoughts?

  4. #104
    Featured Member Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rispy_Girl View Post
    I've got a neurologist calling and ranting at me the past two mornings. Why can't a large group of people start an insurance company ourselves?
    That is what is known as a mutual insurance company. There are a few out there. The bottom line though is there are enormous state and federal law barriers to entry. This creates obstacles for new players to enter the field. Look at the new and even higher barriers imposed by the ACA. Now, on exchange lots of states are down to just two or even one company offering plans. Off exchange there are a few more, in some states. In a few states there are more companies offering health care savings account plans that are pretty good. (Unfortunately not so in my state.) Reducing legal barriers to entry, allowing companies and mutuals to offer either cafeteria plans or multiple plans might work. But, government doesn't like to reduce barriers to anything. Even the AHCA, which is a step in the right direction, doesn't really reduce the barriers to entry all that much.

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  6. #105
    Featured Member KatyBoleyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    The US is doomed on the whole healthcare thing until the public and medical workers of all stripes can accept that not all medicine is "for profit". In most of the rest of the world, you have a public option of some kind, and then private clinics. Private clinics are competing against the government option...and costs stay down for everyone. I had my second child in Ukraine, at a "Cadillac level" maternity clinic...$7000 total, all inclusive. Western doctors, ultrasounds every time I walked in the door, the latest cutting edge equipment and post-natal care...the works. Considering they had to import these things, its even more impressive.

    And this is where the US fails. ALL medical facilities are either "for profit" or paying prices for equipment and facilities to compete with "for profit" and paying the same costs...not the other way around. Doctors may also want to heal the sick, but primarily they need to pay for their million dollar homes, $200,000+ in med school bills, and fake wives with fake tits at the fake country club. European doctors do live much better than their neighbors...they have the nicer house, have the vacation home in the Alps or on the Black Sea, drive the high end Mercedes...but nowhere near the scale US doctors aspire to. They don't spend half their working hours sitting on the hospital boards scheming about how to jack up prices even more because they deserve it.

    It isn't just the doctors either. Medical technology/devices are surcharged 500-5000% more for the US market. Pharmaceuticals are insane. Medical schools aren't free (or extremely low cost) for anyone that can qualify like in most of the world - you get out of school $200,000 in debt and see what kind of arrogant jackass you become. I'm not invalidating their feelings at all.

    I never ever see that conversation though when we talk about health care. I'm not even getting into what's allowed into the American food supply that absolutely shits on your health in later life...chemicals and practices that are illegal in most of the rest of the world.

    Nope, people just want to debate how insurance works. There's no way out of the rabbit hole if you only limit the conversation to that. If the root causes of healthcare costs aren't addressed, no insurance program in the US will ever work in the long term.

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  8. #106
    God/dess baer45's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by KatyBoleyn View Post
    ............

    Nope, people just want to debate how insurance works. There's no way out of the rabbit hole if you only limit the conversation to that. If the root causes of healthcare costs aren't addressed, no insurance program in the US will ever work in the long term.

    Yes, you tell them girl!
    Everyone wants to take a piece of pie in this healthcare profit. Every ring of this system! Everyone is trying to use its power to make a profit. Insurance companies act like sole broker of this deal. Hospitals, doctors, pharmaceuticals, they all want to charge you a crazy amount because they can! They all have made up their reasons why their services are so expensive except the outside world all have done the same thing a few times cheaper. if you can't afford it, you are doomed. But don't worry, we can always spare a few trillions to feed these blood sucking vampires.



  9. #107
    Featured Member Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by KatyBoleyn View Post
    The US is doomed on the whole healthcare thing until the public and medical workers of all stripes can accept that not all medicine is "for profit".
    Profit is not the problem. Salaries, equipment, malpractice insurance, and the sort are far bigger problems than profits.

    " In most of the rest of the world, you have a public option of some kind, and then private clinics. Private clinics are competing against the government option...and costs stay down for everyone. I had my second child in Ukraine, at a "Cadillac level" maternity clinic...$7000 total, all inclusive. Western doctors, ultrasounds every time I walked in the door, the latest cutting edge equipment and post-natal care...the works. Considering they had to import these things, its even more impressive."
    Yep, and a Ukrainian M.D. makes about 1/3 what his/her American counter-part makes same for the nurses and other medical professionals. In Ukraine, there is very little medical malpractice cost because it is difficult to impossible to successfully sue a doctor, hospital, pharmaceutical company or medical device maker.

    And this is where the US fails. ALL medical facilities are either "for profit"...."
    No, really they are not. Much of the U.S. medical system is not for profit. Their charges are close to the same as the for profit hospitals. Profit or non-profit just determines your tax rate. (Hint, non-profits don't pay income taxes.) In fact, there are good and efficient for profit hospitals and not for profit hospitals.

    Profit is not a four letter word. Remember, without profits, there are no jobs.

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  11. #108
    God/dess Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Without profits there are no jobs ; no new drugs ; no medical advances ; no charity.

    Cuba has so called "free" medical care. How many medical advances came out of Cuba since the Revolution ? None.

    Single payer sounds great until you take a hard look at it. California and New York both have proposed plans. Jerry Brown vetoed the California version because it was simply unaffordable. Estimates of its cost range as high as another $100 Billion a year ( for starters and then it will increase ) depending on who is doing the math and how they are calculating. It is supposed to be affordable based on savings and efficiencies on administrative costs and massive tax increases on the so called "rich" i.e. anyone making over $100,000 a year.

    The big problem with single payer is that no one has any incentive to innovate or otherwise control costs. Look how Medicaid and Medicare have exploded in their 50 years of existence. Thus the only way to keep it anything resembling affordable is to control payments to doctors and other providers and ration care - "you are too old to get this cancer treatment " ; "too sick for a bypass" ; "don't perfectly fit the profile for this drug" etc. etc.
    A
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Profits aren't necessary for jobs, new drugs, or medical advances. You only need revenue. There are numerous corporations that aren't profitable, but still provide jobs and fund research. Amazon was unprofitable for many years. The US government is the biggest funder of scientific and medical research. There is also a significant amount of research that is done at non-profit universities.

    Cuba is a much poorer country than the US, but still has approximately the same life expectancy and a lower infant mortality rate.
    Last edited by eagle2; 06-28-2017 at 08:36 AM.

  13. #110
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Of course there's nothing wrong with businesses making profits, if it's done ethically, but it's not the only way to make advances.

  14. #111
    Featured Member KatyBoleyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Without profits there are no jobs ; no new drugs ; no medical advances ; no charity.

    Cuba has so called "free" medical care. How many medical advances came out of Cuba since the Revolution ? None.
    https://www.wired.com/2015/05/cimava...cer-institute/
    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cubas-m...ry?id=43844344

    Cuba spends a tiny fraction on healthcare what we do, and both quality of life and life expectancy are about the same...and they still manage to do some cool new things.

    Cuba is a bad example trying to make this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Single payer sounds great until you take a hard look at it. California and New York both have proposed plans. Jerry Brown vetoed the California version because it was simply unaffordable. Estimates of its cost range as high as another $100 Billion a year ( for starters and then it will increase ) depending on who is doing the math and how they are calculating. It is supposed to be affordable based on savings and efficiencies on administrative costs and massive tax increases on the so called "rich" i.e. anyone making over $100,000 a year.
    Single payer isn't the only solution, there are "public-private" models around the world as well. You don't like Romania or Ukraine, try Switzerland or France or Taiwan for more examples that are working well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The big problem with single payer is that no one has any incentive to innovate or otherwise control costs. Look how Medicaid and Medicare have exploded in their 50 years of existence. Thus the only way to keep it anything resembling affordable is to control payments to doctors and other providers and ration care - "you are too old to get this cancer treatment " ; "too sick for a bypass" ; "don't perfectly fit the profile for this drug" etc. etc.
    Now you're touching on much bigger issue...for profit blocs and their ability to throw money at politicians. We have one of the most corrupt political systems in the world due to the unlimited amounts of money anyone can spend to influence our politics...and its all legal. The government should be at odds with and using their power to collectively bargain on behalf of "we, the people". Instead, you get regulations and price controls written BY THE LOBBY that is receiving the money.

    As for rationing care, that's a complete non-starter. Care will always be "rationed" in the sense that there are not unlimited amounts of resources to make us all immortal. At the moment (or a few years ago anyways) it was rationed by how rich you were. Being poor means a much shorter life-span and QOL, and much of that is due to access to medical care. In any rational government system, the poor will get a sane baseline and the rich will still have the option to get the maximum...that's the difference.

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  16. #112
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by KatyBoleyn View Post
    https://www.wired.com/2015/05/cimava...cer-institute/
    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cubas-m...ry?id=43844344

    Cuba spends a tiny fraction on healthcare what we do, and both quality of life and life expectancy are about the same...and they still manage to do some cool new things.

    Cuba is a bad example trying to make this case.



    Single payer isn't the only solution, there are "public-private" models around the world as well. You don't like Romania or Ukraine, try Switzerland or France or Taiwan for more examples that are working well.



    Now you're touching on much bigger issue...for profit blocs and their ability to throw money at politicians. We have one of the most corrupt political systems in the world due to the unlimited amounts of money anyone can spend to influence our politics...and its all legal. The government should be at odds with and using their power to collectively bargain on behalf of "we, the people". Instead, you get regulations and price controls written BY THE LOBBY that is receiving the money.

    As for rationing care, that's a complete non-starter. Care will always be "rationed" in the sense that there are not unlimited amounts of resources to make us all immortal. At the moment (or a few years ago anyways) it was rationed by how rich you were. Being poor means a much shorter life-span and QOL, and much of that is due to access to medical care. In any rational government system, the poor will get a sane baseline and the rich will still have the option to get the maximum...that's the difference.
    Katy- Quality of life in Cuba is comparable to that of the U.S. ? Set aside the income and material differences; but just living in an apartment in Havana presents the daily risk of a building collapse for many residents ; old buildings that haven't been maintained. For the elite in Cuba , medical care is good. For the average Cuban, not so much.
    Many drugs are not available ; routine treatments available in the U.S. and elsewhere are not available or limited. Plus the Cuban model doesn't seem to travel very well.
    Do a search on Venezuela's collapsing hospital and health care system.
    What drugs have the Cubans invented ? Medical advances ? What are they ?
    I agree with you on Taiwan and Switzerland. France's system is going broke.
    I personally want to see free markets and competition = co-ops ; pre-paid plans ; tax free health savings accounts and other market solutions. Obamacare has resulted in shrinkage of the insurance markets in most states. Most are down to one or two carriers. In many counties there is only ONE !

    Most single payer and restrictive systems expand the number of those subject to rationing. There are a myriad of reasons why health care in the U.S. costs so much and why as a result health insurance costs so much. NONE of them are the fault of a free market. One way or another it is government policy that jacks up costs.
    A
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Profits aren't necessary for jobs, new drugs, or medical advances. You only need revenue. There are numerous corporations that aren't profitable, but still provide jobs and fund research. Amazon was unprofitable for many years. The US government is the biggest funder of scientific and medical research. There is also a significant amount of research that is done at non-profit universities.

    Cuba is a much poorer country than the US, but still has approximately the same life expectancy and a lower infant mortality rate.
    Without profits just how exactly do the salaries and benefits get paid ? I am genuinely flabbergasted that YOU ( a liberal but with a healthy dose of sanity and some respect for facts ) would ever post something like that. These corporations that don't make a profit - you mean like Solyndra - Just how long are they going to last without showing a profit ? At some point the stockholders are going to revolt.

    Yes the government funds a lot of research. But as has been shown repeatedly that is a double-edged sword. Yes, we get advances but we also get a LOT of waste , boondoggles and inflated costs. Non-profit universities do a lot of research. I have no problem with privately funded research. For the government funded kind we get a lot of waste ( do fish get drunker on Tequila than Vodka ? - that is a Bill Proxmire "Golden Fleece Award " classic ), boondoggles , duplication , compounding of group-think, conventional thinking and inflated costs.

    Cuba's stats on life expectancy and infant mortality have been discredited by many researchers who went beyond the official government numbers e.g. A lot of dead babies were counted as aborted fetuses even though they were born alive but died within a week or so. There are a number of similar ways that the Socialist Paradise has cooked the books. Partly with U.N. connivance.
    A
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    Teddy Roosevelt

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  19. #114
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Stockholders are more concerned about stock price than profit. I don't think Tesla has made any profit yet, but I doubt their shareholders are complaining. I'm not saying businesses shouldn't be trying to make a profit, but that businesses can grow without showing profit, as long as they're able to cover their expenses. Just because a business isn't earning a profit doesn't mean they don't have revenue coming in. If a business uses all of their revenue to build the business or increase market share, over the long term, the business could be better off, as long as they're able to meet their expenses. A lot of business startups put all of their revenue into growing the business, rather than paying the owner(s) or shareholders.

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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Damn it! SB-562 was put on hold...

    "If there's a smart path to single payer healthcare in California, we haven't found it yet"



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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by baer45 View Post
    Damn it! SB-562 was put on hold...

    "If there's a smart path to single payer healthcare in California, we haven't found it yet"
    Be glad. Be VERY glad.
    A
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  23. #117
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Stockholders are more concerned about stock price than profit. I don't think Tesla has made any profit yet, but I doubt their shareholders are complaining. I'm not saying businesses shouldn't be trying to make a profit, but that businesses can grow without showing profit, as long as they're able to cover their expenses. Just because a business isn't earning a profit doesn't mean they don't have revenue coming in. If a business uses all of their revenue to build the business or increase market share, over the long term, the business could be better off, as long as they're able to meet their expenses. A lot of business startups put all of their revenue into growing the business, rather than paying the owner(s) or shareholders.
    Hmmm. Yeah. Up to a point. But be careful and try to avoid a myopic focus on just stock price. Remember the Internet Bubble ? A lot of those companies ( most of which should NEVER have publicly issued stock ) never showed a profit ; some never even had earnings and collapsed.

    Growth and reinvestment are fine but at some point a company MUST be profitable. Otherwise where would they get the money for pay increases ; money for R & D ; charity ; income TAXES and dividends ?
    A
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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    What the hell is going on now?



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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by baer45 View Post
    What the hell is going on now?

    Good question. It LOOKS like the Republicans may be stumbling into a place where THEY own the current situation. That's as far as I dare go on that subject because of the politics ban.
    A
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    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    'We had a wonderful life': Mother and father jump to their deaths 'because they can't afford health care leaving their children behind in Manhattan office building'

    Just be clear, they can't afford the " Affordable health care".


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...are-costs.html



    I am going to say it:

    Republicans, if you don't have anything good to replace obamacare, stop playing games, you are useless to us Americans.

    Trump, stop being an asshat. Your promise was not repealing obamacare or wait for its doom day. your promise was replacing dying obamacare with something better. You failed. Don't even try to sugar coat it.



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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by baer45 View Post
    Trump, stop being an asshat. Your promise was not repealing obamacare or wait for its doom day. your promise was replacing dying obamacare with something better. You failed. Don't even try to sugar coat it.
    Not that two wrongs make a right, but who's the bigger asshat: the pathological liar who made empty promises in exchange for populist support, or the throngs of people who believed a pathological liar and trusted emotion over mounds of evidence?

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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpacrkk View Post
    Not that two wrongs make a right, but who's the bigger asshat: the pathological liar who made empty promises in exchange for populist support, or the throngs of people who believed a pathological liar and trusted emotion over mounds of evidence?
    This!!!! Yes!!! They're easily brainwashed cult members. As stated roughly by Bill Maher.
    There's no shame in the game!

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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpacrkk View Post
    Not that two wrongs make a right, but who's the bigger asshat: the pathological liar who made empty promises in exchange for populist support, or the throngs of people who believed a pathological liar and trusted emotion over mounds of evidence?
    I hope you didn't vote for anyone just like me. Otherwise, you do need to ask yourself that question. And I hope you have answer for it. either in 2008, 2012 or 2016.



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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by baer45 View Post
    I hope you didn't vote for anyone just like me. Otherwise, you do need to ask yourself that question. And I hope you have answer for it. either in 2008, 2012 or 2016.
    I did vote, and although the question was rhetorical, for sake of this exercise, my answer would be the latter. But what exactly is the relevance and for what am I answering? I didn't vote for a pathological liar, and I used a completely objective and candidate-agnostic methodology to determine and vote for the candidate who shares the most common ground with my desired platforms, instead of giving into baseless emotion or misinformed partisan identification.
    Last edited by dpacrkk; 07-28-2017 at 01:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Obamacare insurance premium increase.

    Everyone has his/her own opinion. So you are entitled to yours. For the sake of exercise, I did vote for obama in 2008 and did not vote in 2012. I didn't vote in 2016. I dislike Hillary and trump both. Ididnt bother to vote.

    I accept trump when he became the president and hope he can do something about the healthcare ( it's not looking good so far). To me, Hillary is proven sociopathic liar. Trump, he has a couple more years to prove he's not a lair. If he turns out to be a lair. I have no trouble to call him POS, as I stated at very beginning. To get back to your rhetoric question, i don't have an answer. At least not a meaningful one. I am going to stop right here. Too much politics.
    My original comment is still healthcare related. Trump and republicans failed. What's next? Try again?



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