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Thread: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

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    Default What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    So I came across the term MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) and just curious what you think?

    Here is a wikipedia definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

    From the article:

    MGTOW see feminists, "white knights", "social justice warriors", the LGBT rights movement and support for safe spaces as obstacles to male self-ownership.

    Kay Hymowitz has stated that some self-identified MGTOW express discontent because they see women as hypergamous and manipulative.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 02-16-2018 at 10:06 PM.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    It's the dating equivalent of "you can't fire me, I quit!", nothing but a bunch of misogynistic assholes nobody was going to date in the first place claiming its their choice.
    "Well done. Here are the test results: You are a horrible person. I'm serious, that's what it says: 'A horrible person.' We weren't even testing for that."

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    I'll have to look this up - I'm so behind on all this shit.
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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    My room mate was part of this movement. I think it was actually a good thing for him.

    To be brutally honest there are MANY heterosexual males who will put on act of respecting/liking a woman to fuck her for free....then these guys drop the act when they move on to a "better" target or find a more ideal host for their parasitic plans.

    My belief is there's nothing wrong with any person trying to build personal integrity to become a better human being. I have more loathing for weak men who used me without thoughtfulness than a man who chooses a personal code of behavior.

    edit to add- my first boyfriend was a product of the 1970s-80s and trust me, predatory/dishonest behavior towards women is not a new thing that happened with the Internet age and dating apps. He told me tons of things that were well known scams to manipulate women into meeting men's needs, with the aim of ditching the woman without much thought as soon as it was ideal for a man to do so.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    I have to say, I agree with Trem. Also, I think the MGTOW make the most unpleasant customers when they do decide to visit a strip club or book an escort. Those are the bitter types who will bitch about how women are manipulative, evil, all worthless whores, etc and you wonder why they bothered coming in to the club or booking you at all. I hate dealing with these types.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by WendiStarr View Post
    I have to say, I agree with Trem. Also, I think the MGTOW make the most unpleasant customers when they do decide to visit a strip club or book an escort. Those are the bitter types who will bitch about how women are manipulative, evil, all worthless whores, etc and you wonder why they bothered coming in to the club or booking you at all. I hate dealing with these types.
    When I told my room mate (the MGTOW guy) that I was a stripper he actually didn't react in a bad way. I was nervous he would have the type of reaction described by WendiStarr.

    Honestly the most emotionally violent experience I had with a man was a guy who openly rejected most masculine ideals (he kept insisting he "got along better with women" and "didn't understand male behavior.") He was so so messed up because all of his actions were predicated on weakness and primal emotional responses (keep in mind this was his idea of what "women" were all about.....weak emotional animals who were easily manipulated if they were cuddled properly.. I'm not kidding. That to me is more offensive than some Man Bro behavior.)

    Just my personal opinion but after all that MGTOW seems awesome to me.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    I think its sad that men can't get together and form a movement for men without being villified. When women form groups for women men don't say anything and it's seen as empowering but when men do it it's always seen as nefarious and that the men involved are losers.

    What gave birth to MGTOW is primarily the unfair Courts that strips the children away from their fathers and awards mothers child support and alimony so high the fathers go broke and/or face jail time.

    I have a friend in this situation right now. His wife cheated ON HIM with an old ex boyfriend. He was worth a lot of money, had his kids collage tuition paid for and was about to retire early.

    But NOW? He is broke, hardly ever sees his kids, and the his x wife lives in another state with the x bf who she had a baby with off of his dime all because of the divorce.

    Yea, he is angry and bitter, but you and anybody else would be too if your life got rail roaded, you're too old to recover the time and wealth you lost in someone you thought loved you and you don't see your kids.
    Last edited by Luckyguy09; 02-19-2018 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by Luckyguy09 View Post
    I think its sad that men can't get together and form a movement for men without being villified. When women form groups for women men don't say anything and it's seen as empowering but when men do it it's always seen as nefarious and that the men involved are losers.

    What gave birth to MGTOW is primarily the unfair Courts that strips the children away from their fathers and awards mothers child support and alimony so high the fathers go broke and/or face jail time.

    I have a friend in this situation right now. His wife cheated ON HIM with an old ex boyfriend. He was worth a lot of money, had his kids collage tuition paid for and was about to retire early.

    But NOW? He is broke, hardly ever sees his kids and the his x wife lives in another state with the x bf who she had a baby with off of his dime all because of the divorce.

    Yea, he is angry and bitter, but you and anybody else would be too if your life got rail roaded, you're too old to recover the time and wealth you lost and you won't see your kids.
    A lot of women choose not to act this way with co-parenting because really, it seems like a manipulative/malicious woman gets less out of this....On the flip side a lot of women who refuse extra money after a divorce do so in exchange for having the kids spend more time with the father (any sane female would jump at the chance to save thousands of dollars on child care expenses.)

    & Honestly in some US states it's fairly easy for a spouse to re-arrange finances to insulate the shock from a long draw out divorce.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by WendiStarr View Post
    I have to say, I agree with Trem. Also, I think the MGTOW make the most unpleasant customers when they do decide to visit a strip club or book an escort. Those are the bitter types who will bitch about how women are manipulative, evil, all worthless whores, etc and you wonder why they bothered coming in to the club or booking you at all. I hate dealing with these types.
    I really don't see how you know when a customer is a MGTOW because MGTOWs don't go around advertising that they're MGTOWs. It's not that kind of fraternity, and the hardcore of em completely avoid women altogether.
    Last edited by Luckyguy09; 02-19-2018 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    After reading about Leykis I'm more appalled by things he's said and done entirely un related to women.
    edit to add- this Leykis guy seems like a mega loser compared to Howard Stern. They have some similarities but Stern can be realistic/rational. It seems Leykis let himself be defined by painful experiences & anger.

    I'm more disgusted that Leykis has shown less than zero respect for his peers in radio. Not a big surprise he's not a bigger name in media. He doesn't know how to do himself a favor.

    Lucky for us Internet is changing the social dynamic of how radio talk show hosts can spread messages and reach people.
    Last edited by SnuffleUffleGrass; 02-19-2018 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by Luckyguy09 View Post
    I think its sad that men can't get together and form a movement for men without being villified. When women form groups for women men don't say anything and it's seen as empowering but when men do it it's always seen as nefarious and that the men involved are losers.

    What gave birth to MGTOW is primarily the unfair Courts that strips the children away from their fathers and awards mothers child support and alimony so high the fathers go broke and/or face jail time.

    I have a friend in this situation right now. His wife cheated ON HIM with an old ex boyfriend. He was worth a lot of money, had his kids collage tuition paid for and was about to retire early.

    But NOW? He is broke, hardly ever sees his kids, and the his x wife lives in another state with the x bf who she had a baby with off of his dime all because of the divorce.

    Yea, he is angry and bitter, but you and anybody else would be too if your life got rail roaded, you're too old to recover the time and wealth you lost in someone you thought loved you and you don't see your kids.
    ???

    Dude when people get married they should know what they are getting into and running the numbers. They rush into marriage, rush into parenthood, then suddenly realize their decision making skills were shit! No one wants to be held accountable for their actions and the children should not have to suffer as a result of their parents shitty decisions. This is like saying I take a mortgage out, decide I'm done with this house and just bounce but Oh the foreclosure I caused shouldn't mark me credit because I'm that special.

    The problem is people treat the marriage contract they willingly agreed to way too lightly. They have no qualms about breaking up families and putting themselves before their kids lives. Meaning they don't GAF. Courts make people accountable and sometimes it has to be done with money/skin in the game.

    Most courts don't just give irresponsible parents jail time. They give people something called due process and chances to get themselves together for sake of their children. The children's rights are more important than irresponsible parents. The parents going to jail are the ones who are 1. highly uneducated/ignorant 2. extremely selfish 3. No regard for court authority 4. would rather sit in jail to prove a point

    The court also does not "strip children away from their fathers" - a person has to be deemed "unfit" and again they are given chances - ex reformed drug addicts are getting visitation. Nowadays, child support and visitation are two separate issues. Courts are more likely to award divorced or seperated parents joint visitation/custody. And Either parent can be held in contempt if they behave in ways not conducive to the wellbeing of child/children.



    Your friends situation

    HE chose to marry in a no fault state

    And when you divorce a person in community property states you split assets in half - so why is he broke? He should be doing fine with his Half and getting back up financially so may that is something he should work on instead of blaming

    Also why is he not seeing his children? He could be making excuses and playing victim. All states have some form of laws granting both parents custody so most likely he is not taking initiative to claim the rights he has.

    Did he have a lawyer or study the laws there locally?

    I highly doubt your 'friend' is giving you the entire picture.

    Please state more factual info that is not extreme situations with the purpose of perpetuating fear-mongering.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 02-19-2018 at 11:03 PM.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    I dunno....I just learned this term and only know it as tied to incel which I find pretty disturbing. Talking about raping women and killing them openly. Elliot Rodger identified as an incel and murdered a bunch of people- they talk about him and others like him in a positive light. Toxic masculinity at its finest.

    It isn't that men are vilified for forming groups- its that they are vilified when they form groups that support rape and violence. Women form groups often out of necessity for change. I am part of some women tech groups- why do they exist? Because the amount of women in tech has gone down drastically since the 80s and they want more equality in tech. Men are often exclusionary/old boy's club mentality so these are safe groups for women and girls to learn in a comfortable environment from other women or men who support the cause. These groups are not man hating groups by any means and often welcome men, too. Women just want to be treated with respect, paid fairly, and offered the same opportunities that men are. If we were, I somehow doubt so many women's groups would exist.

    I also agree that the friend is either bitter or not telling the whole story. My current guy was married for nearly 22 years before me. His wife cheated on him with another married guy that they were friends with. He is a great guy, always took care of the kids and pays for everything. She still took him for child support, alimony, and half his pension. Because she refused to get a better job he made much more than her and got screwed in his divorce. He is not rich but he does well enough that he can recover from this- just can't retire as comfortably as he would like at 55. His situation sucks and he has a right to be pissed...but guess what? He let it go. Instead of dwelling on what a shit person the ex is, he focuses on how to recover what he lost. To him it just is not worth it to waste energy on being upset over. And to be clear, I do think the system is broken in a lot of ways and is often unfair towards men when it comes to children/marriage....but still... what stemmed from this movement is disturbing. Change is not brought about by bitching about women and supporting violence against them.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    I've been slut shamed more times by feminists than any MGTOW. I'll take them over feminists ANY day. I always say why let a man police your body when there's plenty of feminists to do the job?
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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    To be fair, those types aren't what I would call feminists. They give what it means to be a feminist a bad name.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by Luckyguy09 View Post
    I think its sad that men can't get together and form a movement for men without being villified. When women form groups for women men don't say anything and it's seen as empowering but when men do it it's always seen as nefarious and that the men involved are losers.
    Lol I don't know what youre talking about regarding men not saying anything when women form groups. I've been called a "dumb feminist" more times than I can count for simply pointing out something sexist or telling someone not to slut shame. I honestly think mainstream feminism bitches about the wrong things most of the time, but if you think women standing up for themselves does not often result in endless bitching from men, look around a little bit harder.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Lmao. Lucky, Men being “unfairly tweated” by the courts in regards to child visitation literally stems from the patriarchy brain washing everyone to believe children are “women’s work” and that’s all women are good for and should be doing. Women are also paid less and not hired /promoted as much for good paying jobs AS WELL AS having to give up financial and career security when we become pregnant and give birth (not to mention years afterwards) so that’s also why traditionally they were awarded alimony (I don’t agree w alimony just for the sake of it though, only for cases like these)
    And that’s changing too, courts now are doing their best to award both parents equal custody more and more.

    I think men having a movement is great, there are a lot of issues that need addressing..like male rape victims, boys being told they can’t cry or be emotional or sensitive, all the force-feeding of macho womanizing BS etc. but I don’t think they need a group that centers around hating other historically marginalized groups or a movement that centers around crying they are being called out on sexism and bullying/abuse/oppression

    Also lol at “hypergamous” that’s what happens when you beat down a group of ppl, they do what they can to rise up and feed themselves. Men have been sexually objectifying women for how long, but when they’re objectified for their money they don’t like it. Doesn’t feel good on either end , does it

    I should probably just exit this convo altogether, it’s getting harder and harder the older/more experienced I get to put up with these types
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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    All I know is, I've seen a few very happy marriages of people less than 50, a good number of lives wrecked by divorces including children, quite a few unhappy marriages, and more than a few "zombie" marriages where one or both of the partners is going through the motions but doesn't actually love or sometimes even like their partner.

    I've had very good friends I trust tell me how they were so amazingly happy, and then 5 years later ask me if I knew any hitmen. I've seen married men and women desperate for any outside affection do a number of stupid things to get it.

    As unpopular as this will be, I'm not settled on marriage as we know it. I know we need to have children to propagate the human race. I know true love is possible. Hell I even like wedding cake. I'm just not sure that marriage as we know it is what works best.
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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahuba View Post
    I'm just not sure that marriage as we know it is what works best.
    I noticed when I was younger that a lot of people I met who were in a hurry to be married were looking for a babysitter. That is, they needed someone to take care of various needs with ZERO intent of reciprocating. I think a lot of very young people expect things to work out (especially if their parent stayed married.) That is youthful naivete & innocence.

    Marriage is now as disadvantageous to women as well as men now so I don't even see what the fuss is about.....

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    ???

    Dude when people get married they should know what they are getting into and running the numbers. They rush into marriage, rush into parenthood, then suddenly realize their decision making skills were shit! No one wants to be held accountable for their actions and the children should not have to suffer as a result of their parents shitty decisions. This is like saying I take a mortgage out, decide I'm done with this house and just bounce but Oh the foreclosure I caused shouldn't mark me credit because I'm that special.

    The problem is people treat the marriage contract they willingly agreed to way too lightly. They have no qualms about breaking up families and putting themselves before their kids lives. Meaning they don't GAF. Courts make people accountable and sometimes it has to be done with money/skin in the game.

    Most courts don't just give irresponsible parents jail time. They give people something called due process and chances to get themselves together for sake of their children. The children's rights are more important than irresponsible parents. The parents going to jail are the ones who are 1. highly uneducated/ignorant 2. extremely selfish 3. No regard for court authority 4. would rather sit in jail to prove a point

    The court also does not "strip children away from their fathers" - a person has to be deemed "unfit" and again they are given chances - ex reformed drug addicts are getting visitation. Nowadays, child support and visitation are two separate issues. Courts are more likely to award divorced or seperated parents joint visitation/custody. And Either parent can be held in contempt if they behave in ways not conducive to the wellbeing of child/children.



    Your friends situation

    HE chose to marry in a no fault state

    And when you divorce a person in community property states you split assets in half - so why is he broke? He should be doing fine with his Half and getting back up financially so may that is something he should work on instead of blaming

    Also why is he not seeing his children? He could be making excuses and playing victim. All states have some form of laws granting both parents custody so most likely he is not taking initiative to claim the rights he has.

    Did he have a lawyer or study the laws there locally?

    I highly doubt your 'friend' is giving you the entire picture.

    Please state more factual info that is not extreme situations with the purpose of perpetuating fear-mongering.
    Ms. Ap, life isn't that simple where everything you do is carefully thought out and understood beforehand. My friend got married in the 90s before the internet was around where he and anyone else could easily search information on his own pertaining to such matters.

    Furthermore, although marriage is a legal contract, it's treated as just another milestone in life just like going to the prom, or getting your drivers licence, so most young people sign up for for marriage without even thinking about it. In fact, Americans talk of marriage as some kind of fulfilling experience as if it were traveling to Paris and that one should at least do it once.

    My friend was a much younger man, in love, and very native with all of secioty telling him how it's the next step in life he should take, and it utterly destroyed his life, but it's all his fault that he didn't do any research?

    As far as children, whoever gets stuck with child support can easily wind up in jail for non payment if they loose their job or just can't pay for whatever reason. Child support is based on your income and your earning potential and not what it actualy takes to raise a child on average so if you have a history of making 6-7 figures and you loose your job and can only find a job and make 50k a year, you can still be stuck with high monthly CS payments. Child support punishes the breadwinner and high income earners.

    And yes, he had a lawyer but it doesn't help that much as the lawyer is part of the scam itself. The Courts including the lawyers are all in a scam committing legalized theft. 5-10k retainers, 50$+ just to read emails, 1000s spent to defend yourself and fight for 50/50 custody.. It's a racket...

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by SnuffleUffleGrass View Post
    Marriage is now as disadvantageous to women as well as men now so I don't even see what the fuss is about.....
    Yep, because women now make as much money as men, or even out earn men, so if a breadwinning woman goes through a divorce she will be on the hook to pay an egregious amount of child support and/or alimony just like a man. Britney Spears, Mel B, and Mary j Blige are just a few examples and without a doubt Oprah never married for this reason.

    That said, it's rare to see a woman raked over the coals in Court because women primarily marry for money over love so they don't marry poor men, or say, a female doctor would not even think to marry a bus driver so by that women AVOID the disadvantages of marriage. Women just make better decisions and are more strategic in relationships then men who just marry for looks and sex.

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    ^^^Yes. I've posted many sugar mommy divorce horror stories...

    However these ladies make up the minority in the average city/town except major metro cities. It's rare to see sugar mommies. Your more likely to see it in reverse where the man outearns the woman. And of these male breadwinner families a percentage of the women are homemakers. Any couple who agrees to a marital contract should be aware of these financial details past, current, future - and if they agree to a marriage contract then they agree to the financial terms. Same for children. You kind of sign a contract when they come out that you provide them rights they deserve.

    And what are you talking about? These so-called women marrying for money over love (so people can't have both in their marriage)? And where is the gun put to these mens heads forcing them to marry these types of women????

    Men marrying for looks and sex? (so again they can't love these women also)?

    MGTOW - what other beliefs do they have aside from the marriage thing? I'd imagine many of them would not marry or of they did they would make sure the woman would not benefit (esp. financially) from the marriage?

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    The other tragic spin to marriage these days is a lot of young people who had parents go through bad divorces or abandonment carry those learned attitudes over into their own lives.

    & Let's be honest in the US for young males everyone tolerates their desire to "sow wild oats." Sadly shotgun marriages aren't in style anymore & not even reasonable. So you end up with single moms falling into the poverty gap & fatherless children.

    Marriage is not what it used to be (marrying within one's own community/ knowing about future in-laws through the local grapevine.)

    OTOH people are still very needy & human and want long term arrangements. We all have to negotiate for our own needs.

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  40. #23
    God/dess miss.a.p1600's Avatar
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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Quote Originally Posted by Luckyguy09 View Post
    Ms. Ap, life isn't that simple where everything you do is carefully thought out and understood beforehand. My friend got married in the 90s before the internet was around where he and anyone else could easily search information on his own pertaining to such matters.

    Furthermore, although marriage is a legal contract, it's treated as just another milestone in life just like going to the prom, or getting your drivers licence, so most young people sign up for for marriage without even thinking about it. In fact, Americans talk of marriage as some kind of fulfilling experience as if it were traveling to Paris and that one should at least do it once.

    My friend was a much younger man, in love, and very native with all of secioty telling him how it's the next step in life he should take, and it utterly destroyed his life, but it's all his fault that he didn't do any research?

    As far as children, whoever gets stuck with child support can easily wind up in jail for non payment if they loose their job or just can't pay for whatever reason. Child support is based on your income and your earning potential and not what it actualy takes to raise a child on average so if you have a history of making 6-7 figures and you loose your job and can only find a job and make 50k a year, you can still be stuck with high monthly CS payments. Child support punishes the breadwinner and high income earners.

    And yes, he had a lawyer but it doesn't help that much as the lawyer is part of the scam itself. The Courts including the lawyers are all in a scam committing legalized theft. 5-10k retainers, 50$+ just to read emails, 1000s spent to defend yourself and fight for 50/50 custody.. It's a racket...
    interesting! you make good points

    However, I don't think child support punishes the breadwinners and high income earners. I don't think it's intention is to punish parents

    You said yourself your friend got married and divorced a while back. I would think law are always changing n updating and it's not like how he describes.

    If people remember to focus on the child's needs. I would think that if a parent really has a financial hardship then they can do like they would if they were having trouble paying a car note and notify ahead of time and get temporarily get some relief. There is a percentage of parents in the court systems who really DGAF about their kids and intentionally don't attempt to provide for their kids in the way they deserve. Some parents quit their jobs or work under the table to intentionally to avoid having to give money to the other parent which is probably the parent who has the kid and the kids are affected by that. So maybe the justice system is flawed in how they tell difference between the two types. Some deadbeats get off scott-free while some genuine temporarily down on their luck parents get dragged to hell - IDK

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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    Interesting thing- divorces between homosexual men can be as potentially ugly as a traditional man/woman marriage. Meaning that we always assume people fight over kids primarily but there is actually so much more for people to get wrecked over in a divorce.

    In my world I tend to see women who invest NO effort in getting some schooling in a viable career or saving some money as the ones who get trapped in very bad marriages. They get "stuck" for lack of a better term.

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  43. #25
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    Default Re: What Do You Think - MGTOW???

    I honestly don’t know much about it. There was this TED talk about being able to create your own belief systems with the internet. So basically anyone can create their own alternate reality.

    Martin Luther King inspires me to not hate men because he said “hate it to great a burnden to bear.” I don’t think the problem is us. VS. them-not to minimize the historical effects of patriarchy, but we have to heal and forgive one another and be honest about our part in creating pain and suffering in this world. My fear would be that they validate each other-women are convincing bitches- and not look at their part. In the Netflix show-the mask you wear-it talks about how men are not able to express their emotions except anger. This contributes to mental health problems. So I’m all for men healing, not for hating on women.

    It’s pretty fucking simple do unto others as you would have done unto you. Creating a better world isn’t rocket science. Empathy and equality would solve a lot of problems. We need a social movement for empathy.

    Black communities talk about white lash. Similarly, it sounds like this is men lash instead of an honest attempt to solve social issues.

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