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Thread: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

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    Default Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lient-son.html


    • Chasity Carey, 42, was acquitted on Friday of first-degree murder in the August 2017 shooting death of Brandon Williams in Oklahoma
    • Williams, 38, was a suspect in a burglary and marijuana possession case
    • Payne County District Attorney's Office on Monday released video from Carey's office recorded by her 19-year-old son showing the shooting
    • It shows Carey grabbing a gun from her desk drawer and shooting Williams in the back as he attempts to flee through her office window
    • During her trial, Carey claimed she shot her client in self-defense after he tried to grab her gun
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    They must have some sort of protection because

    1. They tricked him/lured him under false pretenses into that office - isn't that entrapment?
    2. She did not appear to be in 'self defense' - he did not lay a hand on her/her son and was in fact running AWAY from them - so her shooting the guy in the back is nothing more than an execution
    3. That's false imprisonment

    Then not only does she seem cold/unemotional/dont gaf a man is dying on her balcony, she tells her son 'don't go out that window' so he can't even try to help asses injuries/administer aid ==== cold world!

    His family should appeal and file a civil suit for wrongful death

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    http://okcfox.com/news/local/family-...eek-civil-case

    McIntyre told KOKH the family wants justice, even if there is no money to collect in this case.

    "The next logical question would be... why would the family put themselves through a civil case to relive all of this if there's no eventual money for the child who now no longer has a father?" McIntyre said. "And the answer is this simple, they don't want this to happen to somebody else's family member. Yes, there's a place in society for bail bondsmen and for people helping people out in that way, but if you're going to go into that line of business, you've got to be smarter and you can't do things that will ultimately lead to the death of people needlessly."
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    He walked in, all smiling, shaked hands with the son.


    The document said, "She remembered shooting the gun towards Williams and when she looked up, she realized she had shot him in the back."

    This not guilty verdict just got shadier when I google it.
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    I'm thinking this may be a case of "Money talks and shit walks". She must know someone in a position of power and with money to have gotten a not guilty charge.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    One less shitbag in the world.

    This is a guy who intended to skip skip out on his bail, which she had posted. Bail agents have a legal right to apprehend the violator at that point and take him into custody. He was also much bigger and stronger than either she or her son and went nuts when they tried to cuff him. We also couldn't see what happened off screen, but he should never have been behind her desk where her firearm was.

    If I was on the jury, I sure as fuck would have acquitted her.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    A former cop I knew told me that women are able to the use the "I was scared" defense when discharging guns.

    OTOH bail bonds agents deal with very scummy people and she might have had reasonable fear the guy was coming back with friends or an assault rifle.

    I grew up around a lot of scummy people so this doesn't really surprise me. Made me think of the movie "Jackie Brown"...lol

    edit to add- let's be real...aside from her gender she had reasons to be fearful. I personally wouldn't allow my kids to be around wanted felons. Let's hope this woman never faces this sort of scenario again....

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    God/dess Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    I blame the overzealous prosecutor on this one. This was murder but NOT first degree murder. If I were on the jury, I would have acquitted too if only given the option of 1st degree murder or acquittal. 1st degree murder implies he was lured there precisely to kill him, and that's pretty clearly not the case. She should have been charged with 2nd degree murder or at the very least, manslaughter. This lady should be in jail.
    Last edited by Raziel; 03-17-2018 at 08:21 AM.
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    God/dess miss.a.p1600's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    One less shitbag in the world.

    This is a guy who intended to skip skip out on his bail, which she had posted. Bail agents have a legal right to apprehend the violator at that point and take him into custody. He was also much bigger and stronger than either she or her son and went nuts when they tried to cuff him. We also couldn't see what happened off screen, but he should never have been behind her desk where her firearm was.

    If I was on the jury, I sure as fuck would have acquitted her.
    Of course you would....not surprising coming from a dude who once asked the rhetorical question 'am i a sociopath'

    1. you would 'go nuts' too if you had be tricked and forced to be facing incarceration in some shithole prison
    2. he did not touch them, he didn't destroy their property - he was running away from them
    3. how hypocritical of you to say some guy is a shitbag, and therefore deserved to die as if your sins are any better than his
    4. Dude having muscles is no match for a firearm - that was clearly excessive force
    5. You can see the woman and her son clearly (unharmed, unscathed, untouched) on screen the entire time

    the woman got off on a technicality because of how Raziel described.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    They must have some sort of protection because

    1. They tricked him/lured him under false pretenses into that office - isn't that entrapment?
    2. She did not appear to be in 'self defense' - he did not lay a hand on her/her son and was in fact running AWAY from them - so her shooting the guy in the back is nothing more than an execution
    3. That's false imprisonment
    In criminal law, entrapment is a practice whereby a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit a criminal offence that the person would have otherwise been unlikely or unwilling to commit.[1] It "is the conception and planning of an offence by an officer, and his procurement of its commission by one who would not have perpetrated it except for the trickery, persuasion or fraud of the officer."[2]

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel View Post
    I blame the overzealous prosecutor on this one. This was murder but NOT first degree murder. If I were on the jury, I would have acquitted too if only given the option of 1st degree murder or acquittal. 1st degree murder implies he was lured there precisely to kill him, and that's pretty clearly not the case. She should have been charged with 2nd degree murder or at the very least, manslaughter. This lady should be in jail.
    I'm going to have to disagree with most of this. I do agree that the prosecutor was dumb in not providing the jury a manslaughter option. But as far as the rest, she had a legal right to take him into custody once he made it clear that he intended to flee and he was clearly agitated and resisting. At that point, she had every reason to believe that he was an imminent threat and she had to make a split second decision after he had gone behind her desk. Seriously now, did anyone else see the size of that guy? It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback in a situation like that, but when you watch it in real time the whole thing went down in seconds and we don't know what moves he made off camera.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Well she was claiming her life was 'in danger' so....as soon as she locked that door she is trying to insinuate he harmed her (which would be harassment or something) in some way

    She appears to me to be unskilled.

    I am not saying he did not deserve to be incarcerated for committing whatever original crimes he committed, I just don't think he deserved to die that way and if she knew he was a big burly dude who was not going in easy, she should have arranged for a team to take him in - like how tactical force teams take in dangerous fugitives.

    She did not have a right to execute/murder him.

    That is all.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    ^ I agree. Also, kind of off topic but I feel sorry for her son for having to witness that. You can tell that he was obviously distraught by what happened.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel View Post
    I blame the overzealous prosecutor on this one. This was murder but NOT first-degree murder. If I were on the jury, I would have acquitted too if only given the option of 1st-degree murder or acquittal. 1st degree murder implies he was lured there precisely to kill him, and that's pretty clearly not the case. She should have been charged with 2nd degree murder or at the very least, manslaughter. This lady should be in jail.

    I agree it might not be the first degree, but it's a murder.

    1)The decision to handcuff him was made before he came to the office. Now think, would you have your teenage son sit over there? This argument can help both ways if you know what I mean.

    2)He was not aggressive and when she tried to reach him, he avoided any physical contact and steered away from the son as well. He turned his back on them and tried to get away. he wasn't an imminent threat. Yes, she can say, I am afraid he will come back with an AR15... But unless he serves a life sentence, she could have that excuse for the life, couldn't she? So she just saved some trouble and killed him?

    3)She had time to turn her back on him, open draw, shoot him in the back while he's climbing out of the window (according to the statement). "She remembered shooting the gun towards Williams, and when she looked up, she realised she had shot him in the back." That is a very bad "self-defence" situation.

    4)She's not a cop but my feelings is more related to cops in some situations we see on the news. "I am scared" is the defence that you read about in 99.9% of the police shooting cases. When a cop asks you to do anything, you could get killed by doing nothing. Trigger happy cops are getting away from all these cases. Sometimes, people more focus on white cops kill black suspects. But it's not racism that causes the trouble here; it's "I feel threatened"defence with no restrictions that gives cops license to kill. I am not an expert of this, but we need to draw a line somewhere... I hope.
    Last edited by baer45; 03-17-2018 at 09:48 AM.
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    It's probably not racism because they appear to all be the same race but it could be classism. As some other member describes the guy who got shot and killed as a 'dirtbag' or whatever, as though certain types of people (with exception of rapists/murderers) are less human than others and they have no rights of due process.

    I actually think this woman just had a huge ego and did not like the fact she gave a command, this guy disregarded, and her reputation/money was on the line. She did not know what to do and did the first and only thing she knew to immobilize him.

    She didn't even warn him like 'freeze or I'll shoot" and she used the most excessive/dealiest means of force first.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Miss, let's stow the personal attacks. You don't know the totality of what I do in this life. Also, comparing a question of conscience that I raised with respect to who and what I pay to what this guy has done is asinine. I doubt that this guy is overly burdened with any conscience whatsoever. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just didn't bother to see why this guy was in that spot in the first place.

    This credit to humanity decided to bust into a number of small restaurants, usually by shattering glass doors or windows, and rifle through them for whatever he could find that might be worth something. We're not talking about mega corporations here, but rather small businesses whose owners did not deserve to have that done to them. Obviously this perp just didn't care.

    But that wasn't enough for our boy wonder. Not to be outdone, he was then planning to hurt yet another small business owner by leaving her holding the bag for his unwillingness to face the consequences of his own actions. He was planning to do to this to the very person who staked $35k of her own money to get him out of jail in the first place and who relied upon his promise to appear in order to do so.

    So imagine what was going through her head when that big shit bird was losing his mind in her office. This is a guy who has demonstrated, time and again, that he cares about nobody but himself. I have no doubt that, at that moment with all the drama in play, she felt imminent danger. I think that we'd be hard pressed to find any jury almost anywhere, except maybe in CA or NYC, that would have convicted her of murder given all of the facts and circumstances of this case.

    And for those who trot out his kid as now fatherless, what kind of fathering does anyone suspect he was going to be doing while on the run in Florida? Or even in jail for that matter? This is a guy who just takes and hurts, over and over. Good riddance.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    The kid is better off.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Dugans - I don't have time to rehash all your conscience-questionable posts but I will note that in one breath you say 'let's stow the personal attacks', next breath you slick slide in an "asinine" personal attack, so now... lets stow the hypocricy

    I am not condoning crimes.....but I am saying the criminal "justice" system is flawed

    a person owe you 35k and dont pay they deserve to die??? This is hood mentality.
    petty theives punishment is death? Probably in North Korea.

    Plenty of celebrity kleptomaniacs get slap on wrists - hell predators like Harvey Winestein walking around scott-free and he was out here taking pussy not inanimate objects.

    Did Winona Rider deserve to die for stealing from Nordstroms?
    Did Courtney Love deserve to die when she stole 110K in clothing?
    Do all the corporate thieves on Wall Street deserve to die?

    One thing is clear though ---- you think poor people are more deserving of harsh punishments such as life in prison or death.

    How do people like him get like this and can they turn their life around? I am assuming this guy was poor if he was resorting to stealing. Most people do this if they are hard core drug addicts - which can be treated with detox not death. Or maybe he was broke and needed job skills. Or maybe he was just a klepto which could be treated with therapy.

    There was no imminent danger - dude was unarmed, faced away from her, shot in the back execution style. That is simply a piss poor excuse to justify murdering someone execution style. She saw her 35K running out the window and decided he was more valuable dead than alive then devised the "self-defense" scheme to keep herself out of the place she was trying to send him to.

    Technically, her life is in 'imminent danger' every day and if she can't handle that by following same protocol (by hiring task force for men who seem threatening to her) then what is she doing in that line of work?

    The woman got off like same reason OJ simpson and Casey Anthoney did. Murderers acquitted of murder because there is not enough evidence for the actual charge against them like Raziel said.

    Just because a person/people are incarcerated does not mean they don't have rights. Incarceration (except maybe rapists, child abusers, murders, etc) does not equal signing over parental rights. If people in military or whatever careers where they are forced to be away long periods of time away from their families can still be parents so can people who are incarcerated.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 03-17-2018 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Miss, I called the comparison asinine, not you yourself, despite what seemed like a rather hamfisted attempt to take the discussion into the gutter. See the difference?

    As far as the rest of your post, he didn't die simply because he was a thief or because he was poor. He died because he was a hurtful thief and because he let the bail bondsman know that he intended to leave her holding the bag and because he flipped out when they attempted to exercise their lawful right to revoke his bond and take him into custody. Last I checked, none of those other people you mentioned attempted to flee or pulled that crap with their bail bondsmen.

    Now with that said, I'm going to agree with you on two things. First, our criminal justice system sucks and we throw way too many people in jail with no real hope of rehabilitation. Second, I couldn't agree more that she did a crappy job of preparing to take that guy into custody and that she should have had more help present when she tried.

    But none of that, nor any of the other 'shoulda, coulda, woulda' stuff you can drum up, changes what was happening in that moment or what she already knew about him when it was happening. It's easy to sit behind a computer screen and make relaxed statements about whether a big ass guy spazzing out was an imminent threat to a woman and a scrawny kid. But it's something else altogether when you are in the moment and the big guy, a suspected thief who is obviously feeling desperate, is already behind your desk and you have a split second to act. What if he couldn't get out the window and turned on them? I doubt that the two of them together could have overpowered him. Was she really supposed to wait and just hope for the best? A jury of 12 people heard the arguments from both sides, saw the tape, and could not convict her.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Dugans, I don't just "sit behind a computer and make relaxed statments" like you do.

    There is usually a protocol in which the least amount of force is used first.

    Also if she had to use a gun because that's all she had and according to her her life was in danger then why did she need to fatally shoot him vs. shooting him in the foot, arm, etc? You hit a person in their back and it's highly likely the bullet sever the spine killing them or paralyzing them

    If he couldn't get out the window and turned on them, then he would have done just that. But you never see him physically attack them at all in the video. He didn't even enter their personal space.

    No you don't wait and hope for the best but you also don't go around shooting everyone you THINK is going to come after you. Now if someone runs up on you, enters your personal space, points a gun at you, etc. then yes you should blast them to smithereens.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 03-18-2018 at 02:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    A jury of 12 people heard the arguments from both sides, saw the tape, and could not convict her.
    Correction, they couldn't convict her of first degree murder. Which was the right verdict in this case. Had she been charged more appropriately, or at the very least the Jury been allowed to consider lesser charges, it's likely we would be having an entirely different conversation. It's possible this case was tanked from the start by a prosecutor that didn't want this woman convicted. It boggles my mind how a prosecutor could look at that tape and insist on 1st degree murder as the only option. The Jury shouldn't have even been able to even consider 1st degree since it clearly doesn't apply, here.

    That one choice on the prosecutor's behalf was practically a get-out-of-jail-free card. It begs the question of either incompetence, or intent.

    And i don't usually suspect shenanigans with the criminal justice system all that often. However, in this case i wonder....
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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Miss, you are indeed making those statements from a relaxed place if you are talking about shooting him in the leg or foot. That makes for great TV on shows like Person of Interest, where the hero shoots ten people in the leg in a matter of seconds. Pretty cool, huh? But as you should know from your "resume", law enforcement programs and even civilian gun defense classes do not train people to try stunts like that in real life. Instead they all train shooters to aim for center mass, for reasons too numerous to list here but which include adrenaline spiking and poor aim under stress, gun kickback, the need to fully disable a dangerous perp, etc.

    As far as the rest, she was almost off the video herself and it was a tiny office. How can any of us know what he was doing? He couldn't have been more than a few feet from her. You're really suggesting that she wait until he turns around and gets within arms reach to defend herself? Just so you know, though I'm sure you must with the "resume" you have in these matters, that's yet another thing that LE and others are taught not to allow in these situations.

    More than anything though Miss, I am amazed at those who want to shift the blame from the person who was most at fault for all of this going down in the first place, which was the dirtbag himself.

    If he wasn't a serial thief, he wouldn't have been in this spot in the first place.
    Even if he was a serial thief, but he didn't try to leave others in the lurch in an effort to flee from the consequences of his own crimes, he wouldn't have been in that bails bondsman's office in the first place and he would still be alive.
    Even if he was both a thief and a flight risk, he would yet still be alive if he hadn't flipped his shit when she revoked his bail.

    Beyond that I'd say fuck him and good riddance again, but it's Sunday and I feel like I should be a good Christian for at least one day of the week.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel View Post
    Correction, they couldn't convict her of first degree murder. Which was the right verdict in this case. Had she been charged more appropriately, or at the very least the Jury been allowed to consider lesser charges, it's likely we would be having an entirely different conversation. It's possible this case was tanked from the start by a prosecutor that didn't want this woman convicted. It boggles my mind how a prosecutor could look at that tape and insist on 1st degree murder as the only option. The Jury shouldn't have even been able to even consider 1st degree since it clearly doesn't apply, here.

    That one choice on the prosecutor's behalf was practically a get-out-of-jail-free card. It begs the question of either incompetence, or intent.

    And i don't usually suspect shenanigans with the criminal justice system all that often. However, in this case i wonder....
    I'm well aware of the legal distinctions Raz. I should just add that the prosecutor actually did try to convince the judge to allow the jury to consider first degree manslaughter, but it was an 11th hour request and the judge denied the request.

    But I am not convinced that the jury would have convicted her either way. I can tell you that if I was on the jury, I'd have had a hard time of convicting the woman for shooting a physically imposing scumbag like that who was spazzing out in her office and even went behind her desk.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Miss, you are indeed making those statements from a relaxed place if you are talking about shooting him in the leg or foot. That makes for great TV on shows like Person of Interest, where the hero shoots ten people in the leg in a matter of seconds. Pretty cool, huh? But as you should know from your "resume", law enforcement programs and even civilian gun defense classes do not train people to try stunts like that in real life. Instead they all train shooters to aim for center mass, for reasons too numerous to list here but which include adrenaline spiking and poor aim under stress, gun kickback, the need to fully disable a dangerous perp, etc.

    As far as the rest, she was almost off the video herself and it was a tiny office. How can any of us know what he was doing? He couldn't have been more than a few feet from her. You're really suggesting that she wait until he turns around and gets within arms reach to defend herself? Just so you know, though I'm sure you must with the "resume" you have in these matters, that's yet another thing that LE and others are taught not to allow in these situations.

    More than anything though Miss, I am amazed at those who want to shift the blame from the person who was most at fault for all of this going down in the first place, which was the dirtbag himself.

    If he wasn't a serial thief, he wouldn't have been in this spot in the first place.
    Even if he was a serial thief, but he didn't try to leave others in the lurch in an effort to flee from the consequences of his own crimes, he wouldn't have been in that bails bondsman's office in the first place and he would still be alive.
    Even if he was both a thief and a flight risk, he would yet still be alive if he hadn't flipped his shit when she revoked his bail.

    Beyond that I'd say fuck him and good riddance again, but it's Sunday and I feel like I should be a good Christian for at least one day of the week.
    However, none of that is worth a death sentence. You are right, rickdugan, in that if this guy hadn't ripped anyone off he wouldn't have been in that bail bond agent's office in the first place. I think we can all agree that he screwed up pretty badly to even need one for those types of crimes. That's as far as it goes. Nothing on that tape shows anything approaching the standard for lethal force. It just doesn't show the standard for 1st degree murder, hence the reason why this agent is not locked up for 25 years. Any other prosecutor would have gone for a slightly lesser charge that the tape could support. That's what makes me wonder if it wasn't a bit of activism on this particular prosecutor's part.


    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    I'm well aware of the legal distinctions Raz. I should just add that the prosecutor actually did try to convince the judge to allow the jury to consider first degree manslaughter, but it was an 11th hour request and the judge denied the request.

    But I am not convinced that the jury would have convicted her either way. I can tell you that if I was on the jury, I'd have had a hard time of convicting the woman for shooting a physically imposing scumbag like that who was spazzing out in her office and even went behind her desk.
    11th hour requests like that are usually not granted. Whoever had the case had also seen the tape, probably 100 times. One look shows it wasn't 1st degree murder.
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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    Default Re: Oklahoma bond agent fatally shot man, not guilty.

    Well, I haven't yet watched the vid, so maybe I shouldn't comment, but..we all know me better than that, right?
    I agree w/Ms. P & Raziel..
    Ok, now back to listening to Tubular Bells, which kinda makes a good background for RD's comments, (he is on ignore, but I had to have a look).


    MANY MEN WANTED TO LAY ME DOWN, BUT FEW WANTED TO LIFT ME UP

    -Eartha Kitt

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