View Poll Results: do you think the judge should release this spa surveillance tape?

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  • Yes, according to Public Records Act of Florida

    8 44.44%
  • No, according to fair trial rights

    10 55.56%
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Thread: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    florida has licenses for massage and spa from dbpr. They can operate in any normal commercial or business zone most are in shopping centers and strip malls, no adult zoning needed.

    if your employees go above and beyond the normal, it will fall back on the employee not the business. There have been many cases in the past that have done just that, its only the high profile nature of Kraft that took this beyond the evening news and forgotten by morning.

    Literaly the fines if it was to go to trial and be convicted is $1000 tops and no jail time, no probation, no anything.

    oh and his legal team is on retainer, so they get paid the same if they work or not

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Well I would think adult massage is under the umbrella of adult oriented business since they were doing more than traditional massages.

    I’ll have to do more research but I doubt businesses can just claim they’re ignorant of illicit activity just to avoid legal responsibilities and zoning restrictions

    The female owners themselves had clients. So they knew exactly what was going down.

    I also don’t think the prosecution was trying to lock him up i think they were simply too far down the hole to admit where they fucked up during the process of surveillance as part of the warrant.

    Anyways was trying to keep this thread about the video surveillance/warrant
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 05-15-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  4. #53
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    [URL]
    Former federal prosecutor Cynthia Alksne said cops should have known better to take “minimization” actions — making sure the surveillance only caught criminal activity and didn’t infringe on law-abiding people’s privacy.

    Both sides are due back in court Friday for a status hearing.

    Did she say how they were supposed to do that?

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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlerz View Post
    I have a hard time believing that place was legit, but ok..
    If you call your place/service massage & you're not licensed, that's illegal


    'Grasping @ straws' comes to mind
    Isn't grasping at straws what caused the problem?
    Last edited by slowpoke; 05-15-2019 at 06:59 PM.

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  7. #55
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    Did she say how they were supposed to do that?
    I believe an article I read said something about how they were supposed to turn the camera off when it was determined people were getting regular massages

    But you have a point

    That seems impossible to do because how you know if their getting serviced or not if you don’t record them? Like you would have to record the whole session cause you never know at what point the action will go down.

    I do know if I did a regular massage the week Kraft was there, I would not want the video out (well unless they paid me A LOT of money plus royalties lol)

    I’m guess that they never attempted to use undercover agents and went straight to hidden surveillance is also where the prosecution went wrong with their investigation. I do remember reading about the delayed search warrant and one of the criteria was using less invasive methods first.

  8. #56
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    Duh Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Lol, Pokey.

    I think RK. should hire Ms P, Pokey, & Omega!

    The whole thing is a sideshow!


    MANY MEN WANTED TO LAY ME DOWN, BUT FEW WANTED TO LIFT ME UP

    -Eartha Kitt

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  10. #57
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    ^lol! The legal stuff would annoy the hell out of me. I see why some of these lawyers be using cocaine n what not. I’d rather do pr cleanup - for a handsome retainer fee of course

    *still not sure why he had to go to the sleazy strip mall instead of just other options. Like what is the point of having a girlfriend if you can’t get some action every now and then.

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  12. #58
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Well, every once in a while, we all hit McD's, even tho.we prefer steak.


    MANY MEN WANTED TO LAY ME DOWN, BUT FEW WANTED TO LIFT ME UP

    -Eartha Kitt

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  14. #59
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    ^good point I suppose!

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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    ^lol! The legal stuff would annoy the hell out of me. I see why some of these lawyers be using cocaine n what not. I’d rather do pr cleanup - for a handsome retainer fee of course

    *still not sure why he had to go to the sleazy strip mall instead of just other options. Like what is the point of having a girlfriend if you can’t get some action every now and then.
    He probably literally went in for a legit massage one day and got upgraded to the extra stuff.

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  17. #61
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    The only thing that disappoints me about the judge's ruling, which I read word for word, is that he didn't go further in addressing the issue of "right to privacy" vs. the use of sneak and peak warrants to catch misdemeanors. The police screwed up so badly in failing to apply even the most basic required protections against capturing innocent activity that the judge's ruling was an easy one, especially when that innocent activity included nude people.

    In fact, the police botched it so badly that PBC prosecutors are unlikely to appeal, which means that, while Kraft and the other defendants will likely walk, the broader constitutional issues around using "sneak and peak" warrants for this type of crap are not likely to be litigated. Now I have no doubt that this will also prevent FL LE from using this tactic again anytime soon for AMP busts, but eventually some clever person is going to find a workaround for the monitoring issue relating to innocent acts and will try it again, either in another AMP or in some other private setting. The judge hinted in his ruling that Kraft also had an expectation of privacy, but did not have the guts to go further with it.

  18. #62
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by SidneyPrescott View Post
    He probably literally went in for a legit massage one day and got upgraded to the extra stuff.
    That does make me curious now as to how he found out about the place. Yelp reviews? Word of mouth? Or just random events?

    I could be wrong but I think he went twice and both times he paid extra for.....extras

  19. #63
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by SidneyPrescott View Post
    He probably literally went in for a legit massage one day and got upgraded to the extra stuff.
    Kraft: massage me, everywhere

    Masseuse: Everywhere?

    Kraft: Yes.....EVERYWHERE (insert $100 plus wink face emoji here)

  20. #64
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Yea, my heart just aches for RK, I mean, the injustice of it all!

    NO ONE ELSE comes close to the suffering!!!

    How can such a fine, innocent, upstanding citizen bear it all!


    MANY MEN WANTED TO LAY ME DOWN, BUT FEW WANTED TO LIFT ME UP

    -Eartha Kitt

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  22. #65
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlerz View Post
    Yea, my heart just aches for RK, I mean, the injustice of it all!

    NO ONE ELSE comes close to the suffering!!!

    How can such a fine, innocent, upstanding citizen bear it all!
    The issues here go far beyond one billionaire NFL owner. To think otherwise is a bit shortsighted.

    What he did with this case has made things better for many of us on this board, from club junkies like me to escorts, body rub girls and strippers who may do other things from time to time - among others. Heck, even many dancers who consider themselves "clean" routinely violate one or more local ordinances because it is almost impossible not to.

    What he did will make things a little safer for all of us, not just in Florida, but nationwide since the applicable standards were federal and this case will be looked at by LE and prosecutors around the U.S. The publicity also highlighted the bogus nature of using "trafficking" as the fig leaf to pull out all the stops to catch adults having consensual commercial sex, which may also cause others to hesitate before trying the same thing.

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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    Kraft: massage me, everywhere

    Masseuse: Everywhere?

    Kraft: Yes.....EVERYWHERE (insert $100 plus wink face emoji here)
    Lol! I’m sure that he paid for happy endings every time he went there!

  24. #67
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Before I go bk to muting:



    MANY MEN WANTED TO LAY ME DOWN, BUT FEW WANTED TO LIFT ME UP

    -Eartha Kitt

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  26. #68
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Well the fact still remains that Commercial sex, even when consensual, is still illegal everywhere in us except Nevada

    Kraft knew that before he drove to the seedy strip mall to allegedly bust nuts.

    So when you do something against the laws even if you think it is harmless and should be legal you have to be ready for the consequences - part of which means having enough money for a Proper defense. Good for the billionaire but not so good for all the others caught up in spa stings that could not afford good defense attorneys

    It is my understanding that the delayed searches can be used to catch illegal activities even misdemeanors (such as pr*stitution) though they usually reserved for catching felonies (such as trafficking, drug rings, etc) and that the video was not able to be used because the authorities did not follow the escalation steps in a delayed search warrant (they were supposed to send in undercovers first before using video surveillance). This to me means that they will probably continue to investigate businesses moonlighting as adult businesses or adult businesses engaging in illegal activity but more likely using undercover agents. This does not mean adult industry workers in massage parlors etc can relax just that it is less likely they will be videotaped.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 05-16-2019 at 07:17 PM.

  27. #69
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    Well the fact still remains that Commercial sex, even when consensual, is still illegal everywhere in us except Nevada

    Kraft knew that before he drove to the seedy strip mall to allegedly bust nuts.

    So when you do something against the laws even if you think it is harmless and should be legal you have to be ready for the consequences - part of which means having enough money for a Proper defense. Good for the billionaire but not so good for all the others caught up in spa stings that could not afford good defense attorneys

    It is my understanding that the delayed searches can be used to catch illegal activities even misdemeanors (such as pr*stitution) though they usually reserved for catching felonies (such as trafficking, drug rings, etc) and that the video was not able to be used because the authorities did not follow the escalation steps in a delayed search warrant (they were supposed to send in undercovers first before using video surveillance). This to me means that they will probably continue to investigate businesses moonlighting as adult businesses or adult businesses engaging in illegal activity but more likely using undercover agents. This does not mean adult industry workers in massage parlors etc can relax just that it is less likely they will be videotaped.
    You're getting circular now Miss. You've said all this before and we get your views on this, but it doesn't change the fact that many people here participate in it - on both sides - including many girls who either earn all or part of their livings from sex work. It also doesn't change the fact that we expect our police to use reasonable restraint in, and have boundaries for, pursuing stuff that involves how women decide to use their own bodies.

    And of course this doesn't mean that sex workers can relax, nor was I saying that. It does mean that another spa likely won't have to deal with this again anytime soon. Police also won't be tempted to take it just a half step further and start putting video surveillance in places like hotel rooms or even the bedrooms of suspected escorts, among other places where people are likely to get naked. That is a huge win.

    But as to the rest, their are broader constitutional issues that didn't get addressed in the ruling, probably because the judge found an easy out. Unreasonable search and seizure inherently includes a concept of proportionality, where the level of intrusiveness should correlate to the seriousness of the suspected offense. There are many judges who would never have approved video surveillance in private spa rooms to catch misdemeanor sex acts - period - but Jupiter police had a friendly local judge who wasn't so worried about that sort of thing. The reason that we've never heard of this before is precisely because it is that controversial, which is why I was hoping they would fight this all the way. But again, the police fucked up so badly that the judge had an escape hatch and prosecutors are in a bad position to appeal.

  28. #70
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    And you haven’t made redundant statements here?

    Anyways,

    I’m not talking about the people here per say....I’m talking about the Kraft and “Spas” and his decision to engage in an action he knew was illegal which does not make him “innocent” even thought the act itself some would believe is consensual and harmless thus innocent.

    How can law enforcement be expected to restrain themselves from enforcing laws? I get people make their living from xxx some of which just so happens to be illegal my point is they should exercise extreme caution 1. Learn about the adult business laws 2. Research local stings 3. have some money set aside and some lawyers on deck - just like Kraft did

    Your point about the correlation of intrusiveness makes sense

    However there are judges who did approve of such video surveillance in previous spa cases in Florida AND FL is ranked #7 with highest rates of delayed search warrants.

    It just seems to risky to work or procure services at spas in Florida.

    I would like to know the judges rational for approving the warrants in these cases specifically in krafts case.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 05-16-2019 at 08:59 PM.

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  30. #71
    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    How can law enforcement be expected to restrain themselves from enforcing laws? I get people make their living from xxx some of which just so happens to be illegal my point is they should exercise extreme caution 1. Learn about the adult business laws 2. Research local stings 3. have some money set aside and some lawyers on deck - just like Kraft did.
    How about by not trying to record people naked just to catch a few misdemeanors, just as one example?

    The good thing is now they won't be able to - thank you Bob Kraft. Other examples include not using S.W.A.T. teams to enforce pot laws, not using air support to pull over speeders, not draw guns on jaywalkers...do I really need to go on?

    And yes, Florida uses sneak and peak warrants more than many states, primarily for drug trafficking as FL is a major point of entry into the U.S. But it was never contemplated that such warrants would be used for nickel and dime crap like this, nor should we reasonably have to worry about police recording our private areas just to catch consensual commercial sex. Once again (third time now), police do not have the inalienable right to catch any crime by any means necessary. Proportionality matters in what is constitutionally "reasonable" search and seizure.

  31. #72
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    You can cut the negative tone. If you feel like you’re repeating then perhaps you can simply stop posting in this thread.

    I agree there are certain laws that imo should not be illegal and police enforcing them in such a stiff way is just ridiculous

    I get that they can’t just do whatever they want to catch unlawful activity so this is why they have lost their evidence here.

    Other spas in that area had been raided using the same tactics (and I believe they did have some trafficking charges) so they probably thought the same for this place since they found links to the other spas. Plus the judge approved in this case and the other spa cases.

    It seems to me they got overly confident, was unable to secure proof that back the trafficking, and did not have oversight on how to conduct the proper surveillance/follow the steps of the warrant.
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 05-17-2019 at 05:53 AM.

  32. #73
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    You can cut the negative tone. If you feel like you’re repeating then perhaps you can simply stop posting in this thread.

    I agree there are certain laws that imo should not be illegal and police enforcing them in such a stiff way is just ridiculous

    I get that they can’t just do whatever they want to catch unlawful activity so this is why they have lost their evidence here.

    Other spas in that area had been raided using the same tactics (and I believe they did have some trafficking charges) so they probably thought the same for this place since they found links to the other spas. Plus the judge approved in this case and the other spa cases.

    It seems to me they got overly confident, was unable to secure proof that back the trafficking, and did not have oversight on how to conduct the proper surveillance/follow the steps of the warrant.
    Miss, I'll use whatever tone I want within reason. If you don't want a negative reaction, consider where you are when you start trotting out the sanctimonious "Law & Order" card in relation to how women, including many who post on this board, choose to use their own bodies.

    In yet other examples, we will readily kick the doors in when we are pursuing violent felons, pedophiles and drug traffickers, but not for outstanding speeding tickets or even bench warrants for moving violations. Police pull weapons and/or get physical when they are concerned about their safety, but not in ordinary traffic stops or even other minor misdemeanor situations. I could go on, but you get the picture. Proportionality.

    And yes, other spas in the area were raided using the same tactics. Ever wonder why prosecutors offered all of the Johns the same diversion deal in those cases? Some of their lawyers wanted to fight too, but their clients were too scared, especially when they had the chance to get out without a criminal record. We talked about this before too. Then came Bob Kraft, who wasn't scared and stood against them - ultimately for all of us.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 05-17-2019 at 06:19 AM.

  33. #74
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Miss, I'll use whatever tone I want within reason. If you don't want a negative reaction, consider where you are when you start trotting out the sanctimonious "Law & Order" card in relation to how women, including many who post on this board, choose to use their own bodies.

    In yet other examples, we will readily kick the doors in when we are pursuing violent felons, pedophiles and drug traffickers, but not for outstanding speeding tickets or even bench warrants for moving violations. Police pull weapons and/or get physical when they are concerned about their safety, but not in ordinary traffic stops or even other minor misdemeanor situations. I could go on, but you get the picture. Proportionality.

    And yes, other spas in the area were raided using the same tactics. Ever wonder why prosecutors offered all of the Johns the same diversion deal in those cases? Some of their lawyers wanted to fight too, but their clients were too scared, especially when they had the chance to get out without a criminal record. We talked about this before too. Then came Bob Kraft, who wasn't scared and stood against them - ultimately for all of us.
    No you can use that tone elsewhere and on someone else.

    You are more than welcome to stop ‘trotting’ into threads I create if you know your opinion is vastly different from mine. You are only doing that to get a reaction

    And the women on the board can speak for themselves they don’t need you as their spokesperson. Besides I’m talking about Robert Kraft, the sunshine laws in Florida, and the delayed search warrant. So I would appreciate if you would stop making generalizations

    Notice how you consistently barge into threads I create (knowing your opinion is different and you will be triggered) then resort to name calling to get your opinion across? This is the 5th time you’ve done this and at this point you are harassing.

    Here is this thread everyone, except you, has been responding with their opinions in civilized manners and you are expected to do the same or you can exit the thread or be reported. Which would you prefer?
    Last edited by miss.a.p1600; 05-17-2019 at 06:57 AM.

  34. #75
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    Default Re: Robert Kraft Prosecution ..... Release the Nudes....

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    No you can use that tone elsewhere.

    You are more than welcome to stop ‘trotting’ into threads I create if you know your opinion is vastly different from mine. You are only doing that to get a reaction. This is the 5th time you’ve done this and at this point you are harassing.

    And the women on the board can speak for themselves they don’t need you as their spokesperson. Besides I’m talking about Robert Kraft, the sunshine laws in Florida, and the delayed search warrant. So I would appreciate if you would stop making generalizations

    Notice how you consistently resort to name calling to get your opinion across?

    Here is this thread everyone, except you, has been responding with their opinions in civilized manners and you are expected to do the same or you can exit the thread or be reported. Which would you prefer?
    Miss, I didn't call you any names and you don't get to control how others respond to your opinions. Report away if you must.

    Or better yet, you could stop implying that every woman on this board who derives some or all of her income from p4p is a hardened criminal who should fully expect police to record her in private or even kick down her door. After all, in your view, police should not have to show restraint in how they enforce the laws, right? Thank goodness that most constitutional scholars and judges don't agree with your sentiments.

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