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Thread: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

  1. #301
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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You can't refute what was said, so you attack the source. You refuse to acknowledge that the policies you advocate have failed dramatically. It's not just the NYT saying this.

    https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...ge-anyway.html

    https://www.politico.eu/article/swed...9-light-touch/


    Now you're making up your own "facts". New York was hit much harder than FL and TX early on, which is why New York fared the worst. More international travelers go through NYC than probably any other area in the US. By the time the virus spread to FL and TX, measures were already being taken to prevent the spread. Right now, NY is faring much better than FL and TX. The only reason why FL and TX aren't doing as badly as NY did, is because many people are continuing to practice social distancing and are sheltering at home, even though those states have reopened. When NY was first hit, nobody was doing that.

    Even if you exclude all nursing home deaths, the US has fared far worse than countries that locked down early and took strong measures from the start.


    If they follow the advice of scientists as most European countries have done, instead of doing what you advocate, I'm sure they'll do much better. Here's a graph showing the difference.


    It's because you continue to make the same false claims and ignore facts you don't like. At this point, it's not worth even trying to reason with you. You're always going to ignore facts and instead make condescending comments. You're now being placed on ignore.
    I absolutely can argue with the so-called "source" and I did. They are cherry picking what they think is important and spinning it to support their beliefs, as are the other "sources" you posted. In doing so they are speculating on what-if death rate and economic differentials when they have absolutely no way of knowing if they are right or not.

    Sweden's death rate per capita is far lower than New York's as well as several European countries who fully locked down, including the UK, France and Italy. We don't know how much better it would have been if they have locked down, nor do we know how much worse the economy would have become had they done so. It is a failure of logic to try to compare Sweden to other cherry picked countries just because they happen to be close by. Each country is different and has its own unique circumstances. That goes not only to the NYT's article but to your EU chart too.

    I never make a false claim or use a smokescreen and, as a general matter, I detest sources that do a shoddy job or research and ignore what they don't like. The truth is that articles criticizing Sweden are horribly premature because we don't know how this is going to shake out yet almost anywhere. There is evidence that Sweden's curve is starting to flatten, while we and several other countries still have a long way to go becuase we have delayed the inevitable with these lockdowns. It will be at least a year from now before we are in a position to tell one way or another.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    What is this? I don't know what the hell Puffpost is but maybe it's some joke you are making.

    I don't always agree with the NYT (like FOX is any better ) but no need to get snarky: '...those rags you routinely post'.

    Maybe I missed something to provoke this but I won't have it.

    If it's getting circular better to just drop it man.
    No snark intended. Puffpost was a nickname for Huffpost. The NYT used to be a respectable source of information once upon a time, always a bit slanted but at least they tried to provide some balance in their stories. But over the last couple of years it has become increasingly shoddy. I guess that's what happens when you shit can a large percentage of your copy editors to make room for stream of consciousness bloggers. It has been sad to see such a storied institution fall so low.

    And on that note this will be my last post in this thread. Nobody's mind is going to be changed here. We will just have to see how things shake out over the coming months.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 07-11-2020 at 04:43 PM.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    I hear that GR. Our school system is offering this option for those who are not comfortable returning their kids to school in August, but the wildcard is how effective the distance learning version will be.

    It was crap when our kids were forced to do it for the last quarter of the 2019-2020 school year, so really it was a lost quarter. Our kids got about 40 minutes of "face" time with their teachers each week and they relied largely upon Khan Academy and other third-party materials. If it is similarly bad going into 2020-2021, then the total loss in education time could be as bad as three quarters of an entire school year, which is a disastrous loss of educational advancement time that they will never get back.

    Now maybe the Summer has provided some time to improve the model, but I doubt it. Most school systems cannot compel teachers to work over the Summer due to negotiated contract provisions with the teacher's unions, so I doubt that these educators have been hard at work for the last 6 weeks revamping curricula to more effectively teach in a remote learning model. For those kids who are held out of school for one reason or another let's hope that I am wrong.
    It wasn’t lost with us as my daughter-in-law got the comprehensive lesson plans from their teachers and we took the teachers place with the teachers spending face time with us to review we had taught the lessons well. If anything personal attention was more prevalent and we were even tougher than the classroom. The only thing they list out on was socialization.

    It took our time but it was worth it.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    In Sweden (pop. 10.25m) – where there was no lockdown– only 70 people under 49 years old have died of Covid-19, out of 5,482 total virus deaths (1.3%) so far. For context, average annual deaths in Sweden over the last 5 years for under-49-year-olds have been 3,417.

    Presently, Sweden is very close to reaching herd immunity which is a condition in which the majority have developed antibodies that will help to fend-off similar sars-covid infections in the future. Absent a vaccine, herd immunity is the best that can be hoped for. It ensures that future outbreaks will be less disruptive and less lethal. Take a look at this excerpt from an article at the Off-Guardian which helps to explain what’s really going on:

    "Sweden’s health minister understood that the only chance to beat COVID-19 was to get the Swedish population to a Herd Immunity Threshold against COVID-19, and that’s exactly what they have done…

    The Herd Immunity Threshold (“HIT”) for COVID-19 is between 10-20%.

    This fact gets less press than any other. Most people understand the basic concept of herd immunity and the math behind it. In the early days, some public health officials speculated that COVID-19’s HIT was 70%. Obviously, the difference between a HIT of 70% and a HIT of 10-20% is dramatic, and the lower the HIT, the quicker a virus will burn out as it loses the ability to infect more people, which is exactly what COVID-19 is doing everywhere, including the U.S, which is why the death curve above looks the way it looks.

    Scientists from Oxford, Virginia Tech, and the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, all recently explained the HIT of COVID-19 in this paper:

    We searched the literature for estimates of individual variation in propensity to acquire or transmit COVID-19 or other infectious diseases and overlaid the findings as vertical lines in Figure 3. Most CV estimates are comprised between 2 and 4, a range where naturally acquired immunity to SARS-CoV-2 may place populations over the herd immunity threshold once as few as 10-20% of its individuals are immune….

    Naturally acquired herd immunity to COVID-19 combined with earnest protection of the vulnerable elderly – especially nursing home and assisted living facility residents — is an eminently reasonable and practical alternative to the dubious panacea of mass compulsory vaccination against the virus.

    One of the most vocal members of the scientific community discussing COVID-19’s HIT is Stanford’s Nobel-laureate Dr. Michael Levitt. Back on May 4, he gave this great interview to the Stanford Daily where he advocated for Sweden’s approach of letting COVID-19 spread naturally through the community until you arrive at HIT. He stated:

    If Sweden stops at about 5,000 or 6,000 deaths, we will know that they’ve reached herd immunity, and we didn’t need to do any kind of lockdown. My own feeling is that it will probably stop because of herd immunity. COVID is serious, it’s at least a serious flu. But it’s not going to destroy humanity as people thought.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Today Florida shattered the largest single-day record of coronavirus infections.

    https://www.foxnews.com/health/flori...navirus-record

    Florida set a new national record for the largest daily increase in coronavirus cases in the United States on Sunday, while infections continue to spike around the world.

    The state added at least 15,299 positive COVID-19 cases, for a total of 269,811, and recorded 45 more deaths, according to state Department of Health statistics.

    California had the previous record of daily positive cases — 11,694, set on Wednesday. New York had 11,571 on April 15.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
    In Sweden (pop. 10.25m) – where there was no lockdown– only 70 people under 49 years old have died of Covid-19, out of 5,482 total virus deaths (1.3%) so far. For context, average annual deaths in Sweden over the last 5 years for under-49-year-olds have been 3,417.
    How is someone over 49 years of old dying, more acceptable than someone under 49? So far, Sweden has one of the highest death rates in the world from coronavirus. One of the few countries with a higher death rate than the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
    Presently, Sweden is very close to reaching herd immunity which is a condition in which the majority have developed antibodies that will help to fend-off similar sars-covid infections in the future. Absent a vaccine, herd immunity is the best that can be hoped for. It ensures that future outbreaks will be less disruptive and less lethal. Take a look at this excerpt from an article at the Off-Guardian which helps to explain what’s really going on:

    "Sweden’s health minister understood that the only chance to beat COVID-19 was to get the Swedish population to a Herd Immunity Threshold against COVID-19, and that’s exactly what they have done…

    The Herd Immunity Threshold (“HIT”) for COVID-19 is between 10-20%.

    This fact gets less press than any other. Most people understand the basic concept of herd immunity and the math behind it. In the early days, some public health officials speculated that COVID-19’s HIT was 70%. Obviously, the difference between a HIT of 70% and a HIT of 10-20% is dramatic, and the lower the HIT, the quicker a virus will burn out as it loses the ability to infect more people, which is exactly what COVID-19 is doing everywhere, including the U.S, which is why the death curve above looks the way it looks.

    Scientists from Oxford, Virginia Tech, and the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, all recently explained the HIT of COVID-19 in this paper:

    We searched the literature for estimates of individual variation in propensity to acquire or transmit COVID-19 or other infectious diseases and overlaid the findings as vertical lines in Figure 3. Most CV estimates are comprised between 2 and 4, a range where naturally acquired immunity to SARS-CoV-2 may place populations over the herd immunity threshold once as few as 10-20% of its individuals are immune….

    Naturally acquired herd immunity to COVID-19 combined with earnest protection of the vulnerable elderly – especially nursing home and assisted living facility residents — is an eminently reasonable and practical alternative to the dubious panacea of mass compulsory vaccination against the virus.

    One of the most vocal members of the scientific community discussing COVID-19’s HIT is Stanford’s Nobel-laureate Dr. Michael Levitt. Back on May 4, he gave this great interview to the Stanford Daily where he advocated for Sweden’s approach of letting COVID-19 spread naturally through the community until you arrive at HIT. He stated:

    If Sweden stops at about 5,000 or 6,000 deaths, we will know that they’ve reached herd immunity, and we didn’t need to do any kind of lockdown. My own feeling is that it will probably stop because of herd immunity. COVID is serious, it’s at least a serious flu. But it’s not going to destroy humanity as people thought.
    From:
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/vaccine-re...ry?id=71662733

    Similarly, Sweden attempted to attain herd immunity through an approach that ultimately yielded among the highest per capita death rates from COVID-19 in the world, with no measurable associated economic gain, according to the European Commission. Only 6.1% of Sweden's population developed coronavirus antibodies by late May -- a number much lower than predicted.
    Sweden's 'herd immunity' hopes are fading as only a small fraction of the population has coronavirus antibodies

    https://www.businessinsider.com/coro...eriment-2020-6

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
    Good luck thinking the a rushed, unproven vaccine financed by Bill Gates will save us.
    Any vaccine would have to go through multiple trials before being approved by the FDA. If anyone wants to rush through with an unproven vaccine, it's Donald Trump. My biggest concern is that he will pressure the FDA to approve a vaccine before it's been through enough testing to show it's safe and effective.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Any vaccine would have to go through multiple trials before being approved by the FDA. If anyone wants to rush through with an unproven vaccine, it's Donald Trump. My biggest concern is that he will pressure the FDA to approve a vaccine before it's been through enough testing to show it's safe and effective.
    The FDA is not scared of Donald Trump.
    Now he said it a third time, and Ona drew a deep breath;

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    I hope not.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    A speaker at the Wisconsin Republican convention, which was held in-person:

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1282117207728836608
    Last edited by eagle2; 07-12-2020 at 08:45 PM.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    I worry more about what edicts these crazy politicians and bureaucrats will think of next more than I do of the virus itself.

    Good news (to me personally) is that the White House has been increasingly critical of Fauci. Fauci backed the Wuhan Lab with U.S. Dollars for risky Coronavirus Research and is now part of the Corona task force in the US. I want to know who created this virus in the lab with an HIV insert and how it "leaked".

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    My state is going up. It’s stressful that I can’t rely on authorities to the right thing. I’m constantly doing a gut check as I believe our intuition is extremely important to listen to since we’re being gaslighted on a daily basis. As cases rise, I’ll probably have to stay home even if there’s no official stay at home order. My governor is an idiot that’s going along with the toxic political BS. I feel like I’m walking on egg shells every day. All I do is I can’t wait for the vaccine. Until then everyday feels like walking through a mine field. This shit sucks. I will say a lifetime of being a survivor of crazy shit has given me bad ass coping skills.
    Last edited by moneybags; 07-14-2020 at 03:37 AM.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    ^our governor is an idiot too. His bitch ass waited so damn long to put orders in place. I think some of these “leaders” are mentally challenged

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
    I worry more about what edicts these crazy politicians and bureaucrats will think of next more than I do of the virus itself.
    Over 138,000 Americans have died from this virus, and your biggest concern is what the government will do to stop it from spreading?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
    Good news (to me personally) is that the White House has been increasingly critical of Fauci. Fauci backed the Wuhan Lab with U.S. Dollars for risky Coronavirus Research and is now part of the Corona task force in the US. I want to know who created this virus in the lab with an HIV insert and how it "leaked".
    You think it's good news that the one who suggested injecting disinfectant into the lungs to cure the virus, is being critical of the person with the degrees in science and with the scientific training? It's very well established that this virus wasn't created in a lab.
    Last edited by eagle2; 07-14-2020 at 10:27 PM.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by miss.a.p1600 View Post
    ^our governor is an idiot too. His bitch ass waited so damn long to put orders in place. I think some of these “leaders” are mentally challenged
    Our whole society is mentally ill, but that’s a whole other conversation.
    Last edited by moneybags; 07-14-2020 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Things are bad here.we had 2000 new cases in this city yesterday. Our Mayor wants another full shutdown but it will be up to our Idiot Governor .
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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by chanzep View Post
    Things are bad here.we had 2000 new cases in this city yesterday. Our Mayor wants another full shutdown but it will be up to our Idiot Governor .
    I thought the Gov of Texas had a change of heart and decided to start listening to the medical professionals, or was that someone else?
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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    I read a statement today from the Gov. of North Carolina that I found to be impressive. I'm not in North Carolina and I don't know his politics but this is what I would like to see more of here in Florida. More humility and accountability instead of defensive statements to cover ones butt.

    You can read it here if you like: https://twitter.com/NC_Governor/stat...480749056?s=19

    I'll be even more impressed if the individual districts and superintendents actually listen to the teachers when they decide the corriculum. Gov Cooper is leaving it up to them to ultimately decide what is best.
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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Over 138,000 Americans have died from this virus, and your biggest concern is what the government will do to stop it from spreading?!



    You think it's good news that the one who suggested injecting disinfectant into the lungs to cure the virus, is being critical of the person with the degrees in science and with the scientific training? It's very well established that this virus wasn't created in a lab.
    Trump NEVER said that. He was talking clumsily and inarticulately about various treatments SOME of which are like chemotherapy and at least one of which involves germicidal or antiseptic aerosols inhaled at NON -Toxic levels.

    Fauci deserves a LOT of criticism. Having fallen in love with the way he was lionized in the media and anxious to say something rather than wait for more definitive data , Fauci said a LOT of things THEN that are not accurate or just plain wrong NOW. Inter alia, he admitted at one point that he discouraged mask usage to try and reserve limited supplies of PPE for first responders and hospital staff.

    As for the ultimate source of Covid - Who Knows ? We know it started in China and that most likely it escaped from a lab in Wuhan. And China lied about it. Repeatedly.
    Was a Chinese scientist playing with various mutations of corona viruses ? Almost certainly. Was it thus "created " in the lab ? No but it probably originated there.
    So what ?
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Speaking of slow to act governors

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ve-updates-us/

    Oklahoma governor....tested positive for coronavirus

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Trump NEVER said that. He was talking clumsily and inarticulately about various treatments SOME of which are like chemotherapy and at least one of which involves germicidal or antiseptic aerosols inhaled at NON -Toxic levels.
    Yes he did. It's on video. Go to 23 seconds.



    Even Trump doesn't deny saying this. He tried to lie his way out by saying he was being sarcastic. He clearly wasn't.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...tants-n1191991


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Fauci deserves a LOT of criticism. Having fallen in love with the way he was lionized in the media and anxious to say something rather than wait for more definitive data , Fauci said a LOT of things THEN that are not accurate or just plain wrong NOW. Inter alia, he admitted at one point that he discouraged mask usage to try and reserve limited supplies of PPE for first responders and hospital staff.
    I have a lot more confidence in Fauci than in Trump, who tells one lie after another, and whose response to the pandemic has been worse than doing nothing. He is actively trying to spread the virus. He's holding rallies in crowded indoor arenas. He's pressuring states to reopen before it is safe. He denied it was a serious threat, even though he was warned it could kill up to 1/2 million Americans. He did nothing to prepare for it, even as we saw some European countries being overwhelmed. Practically every other western country is seeing their number of cases plummet, while in the US, we're seeing record numbers. His response has been so horrendous, that Europeans won't even allow Americans to enter their countries.

    There was a major shortage of PPE, so Fauci was right to discourage people from wearing masks at the time, when healthcare workers didn't have enough for themselves. They were at much greater risk than anyone else. Some of them died. The shortage was so bad that on Twitter, a doctor was pleading with people who knew how to sew, to make masks for healthcare workers.

    I can't for the life of me, see how anyone could defend Trump's response to the pandemic, after more than 139,000 deaths, more than any other country. Do you really think this is the best we can do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    As for the ultimate source of Covid - Who Knows ? We know it started in China and that most likely it escaped from a lab in Wuhan. And China lied about it. Repeatedly.
    Was a Chinese scientist playing with various mutations of corona viruses ? Almost certainly. Was it thus "created " in the lab ? No but it probably originated there.
    So what ?
    Adelina said it was man-made. It wasn't. There's no evidence that it escaped from a lab.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Trump certainly didn't mean to suggest we take chlorine or disinfectants internally. He used the incorrect words but he didn't suggest we poison ourselves with chlorine. It's a fact that Dr. Fauci backed the Wuhan Lab Coronavirus Research. He was one of the guy who were working on an AIDS vaccine years ago. The vaccine was never developed.

    https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-ba...search-1500741

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Yes he did. It's right there on the video.

    There is zero evidence the virus came from a Wuhan lab.

    https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...id-19-came-lab

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Yes he did. It's on video. Go to 23 seconds.



    Even Trump doesn't deny saying this. He tried to lie his way out by saying he was being sarcastic. He clearly wasn't.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...tants-n1191991



    I have a lot more confidence in Fauci than in Trump, who tells one lie after another, and whose response to the pandemic has been worse than doing nothing. He is actively trying to spread the virus. He's holding rallies in crowded indoor arenas. He's pressuring states to reopen before it is safe. He denied it was a serious threat, even though he was warned it could kill up to 1/2 million Americans. He did nothing to prepare for it, even as we saw some European countries being overwhelmed. Practically every other western country is seeing their number of cases plummet, while in the US, we're seeing record numbers. His response has been so horrendous, that Europeans won't even allow Americans to enter their countries.

    There was a major shortage of PPE, so Fauci was right to discourage people from wearing masks at the time, when healthcare workers didn't have enough for themselves. They were at much greater risk than anyone else. Some of them died. The shortage was so bad that on Twitter, a doctor was pleading with people who knew how to sew, to make masks for healthcare workers.

    I can't for the life of me, see how anyone could defend Trump's response to the pandemic, after more than 139,000 deaths, more than any other country. Do you really think this is the best we can do?



    Adelina said it was man-made. It wasn't. There's no evidence that it escaped from a lab.
    Sigh. You have demonstrated occasional difficulty with reading comprehension. NO I am not attacking your intellectual abilities. Imho it results from your ideology driving your reading i.e. you are prone to cherry picking and ignoring information you do not like or which does not fit your preferred paradigms. Now you exhibit apparent difficulty in listening to the spoken word and WATCHING the speaker. Who do you think Trump kept turning to for affirmation and confirmation of what he was saying ? It was FAUCI and BIRX neither of whom corrected him and both were nodding their heads. More importantly he was clearly speaking about EXPLORING , TESTING various modalities. He was clearly spitballing ideas. He NEVER suggested snorting or drinking bleach or any other disinfectant yet the "drive by , fake news " media continually says that he did. There are some internal DISINFECTING therapies that have been around for years to treat various types of infections. How do you think we treat amoebic dysentery for instance ? What do you think is in the enemas the patients are given ?

    Fauci , Trump , Birx , Hannity , Limbaugh, Maddow, Lemon , Blitzer, Fox News , MSNBC , CNN, Pelosi , Schumer , BIDEN ( just let me know when you want me to stop ) lots of Governors and Mayors and dozens of so-called experts have repeatedly been WRONG about Covid. So was Cuomo and his idiot Health Commissioner who virtually welcomed Covid into nursing homes and now refuse to take any responsibility but instead have tried to blame Trump. Do I think they did that deliberately ? Highly unlikely but they certainly acted with arrogance and with heads well up their asses. But let's just focus on Fauci. If you track what that man has said about Covid since it popped up on the media radar around the beginning of the year he has been consistently wrong and off-base. About its potential severity ; ease of contagion ; impact ; treatment ; available resources ; treatment and most importantly about how the public ought to react and behave in response. He went from a "What me worry " Dr. Feelgood to a doom and gloom Cassandra . With occasional revisiting of both extremes from time to time. He is the supposed expert yet he has been wrong and said things that are no longer valid just as much as Trump. It's there in the record. Just a superficial google search will give you dozens and dozens of examples.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Yes he did. It's right there on the video.

    There is zero evidence the virus came from a Wuhan lab.

    https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...id-19-came-lab
    OK fine. You tell us. Where did it come from ?
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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