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Thread: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The Supreme Court has ruled religious beliefs or rituals are not exempt from the law. Congress then passed a law that they are exempt, except in cases where they're harmful. There's no question that holding in-person religious services during an epidemic is harmful.
    You may want to re-read those cases. First of all , state vs. religion cases are a confused quagmire of inconsistent jurisprudence. However the Supreme Court has made it clear that ANY state interference with religious activity of any kind is subject to strict scrutiny. The state must show much more than just a rational basis.Their reasons must be compelling AND they must show that there are no alternatives. Most , maybe not all , but most state regulation of church services fails the test.
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    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Oh my goodness NO! Why aren't CNN, CNBC and the other marginally more reputable national media outlets all over this??? This conspiracy has to be exposed immediately.

    Oh wait, that's because these conspiracy theories have been largely debunked. Local network news outlets have actually done a reconciliation between the 25 local ME offices' records and the statewide numbers and only found a marginal difference in reported cases. It also came out that the fired purported "data scientist" was a data input analyst with degrees in Journalism and Communications and had some mental issues that previously put her in criminal proceedings.

    Eagle, you really need to find better sources than Kronos and Puffpost, lol. <3.3 GPA journalism majors from C schools are not usually reliable sources of data analysis. Just sayin'.
    https://www.tampabay.com/news/health...ade-them-stop/

    https://www.wftv.com/news/local/depa...BPBJD3JIVYL4U/


    https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronav...zze-story.html

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You may want to re-read those cases. First of all , state vs. religion cases are a confused quagmire of inconsistent jurisprudence. However the Supreme Court has made it clear that ANY state interference with religious activity of any kind is subject to strict scrutiny. The state must show much more than just a rational basis.Their reasons must be compelling AND they must show that there are no alternatives. Most , maybe not all , but most state regulation of church services fails the test.
    When American Indians were arrested for smoking an illegal substance during a religious ceremony, the Supreme Court upheld the arrest. If states can legally ban certain substances from being smoked in religious ceremonies, they can certainly prohibit religious services when there is likelihood that a deadly virus will be transmitted at those services. As I said before, over 30 pastors in the Bible belt, who held in-person services, have died from the virus. Why would you want more of this?
    Last edited by eagle2; 05-29-2020 at 04:27 PM.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Oh yes there is. Services without adjustments and elementary are potentially risky. Those with parishioners wearing masks and gloves and at Communion taking the host from the priest's gloved hands into their gloved hands has ZERO risk.
    You don't know that. Gloves do nothing to prevent the spread of the virus. The virus can just as easily spread from a gloved hand as an uncovered hand. You can't take communion wearing a mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I am sorry but Covid is NOT cholera , typhoid , a norovirus or the flu. Yes it is highly contagious and potentially deadly IF you are old , already sick or have a weakened immune system. There are tests and effective treatments. Btw, I have spoken to a lot of treating doctors over the last two months. They ALL prescribe hydroxychloroquine , zinc and azithromycin to Covid patients with mild to moderate cases. They all say the regimen is effective and safe. The misinformation floating around thanks to doctors who do not treat and their media handmaidens has gotten out of control . ALL of the studies saying different are DEEPLY flawed.
    COVID-19 is far more contagious than cholera. Cholera is transmitted through human waste. COVID-19 is transmitted through breathing or talking. There are no treatments that are 100% effective. If there were, there wouldn't be thousands of people dying every day.
    Controlled tests have shown hydroxychloroquine is not only not effective, but can be deadly. What is your evidence that these studies are flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The chances of catching Covid OUTDOORS are almost zero. Wearing a mask except when actually eating and drinking while spacing limits the risk to almost zero.Yet too much of the country is still shut down. For how much longer ? At what cost ? We are already looking at permanent damage that will take years to repair and undo.
    No it isn't. The pandemic in Italy was traced back to an outdoor football (soccer) match. When Florida opened beaches for spring break, some of those students that went to the beaches, later tested positive. Businesses that can operate safely should be allowed to open. Businesses that can't, should not. Science should be the determining factor. Not politics. Wisconsin reopened two weeks ago and is now reporting its highest daily increase in COVID-19 Cases.

    https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pan...covid-19-cases

    I don't think you or Rick understand how deadly or contagious this disease is. We've already experienced over 100,000 deaths over a 2 1/2 month period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Parts of NYC have already met all seven of Cuomo's metrics for reopening ( Staten Island ; parts of Manhattan , Brooklyn and Queens but sadly not the Bronx ).Cuomo says it is all or none. WHY ? Neither he nor the Village Idiot Mayor have ever worked a day in the private sector. They obviously think that Federal helicopters will be flying over NYC raining money. And most of the rest of the country justifiably asks : We should pay for that , why ?
    People from the Bronx could easily travel to Brooklyn or Queens.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You don't know that. Gloves do nothing to prevent the spread of the virus. The virus can just as easily spread from a gloved hand as an uncovered hand. You can't take communion wearing a mask.


    COVID-19 is far more contagious than cholera. Cholera is transmitted through human waste. COVID-19 is transmitted through breathing or talking. There are no treatments that are 100% effective. If there were, there wouldn't be thousands of people dying every day.
    Controlled tests have shown hydroxychloroquine is not only not effective, but can be deadly. What is your evidence that these studies are flawed?


    No it isn't. The pandemic in Italy was traced back to an outdoor football (soccer) match. When Florida opened beaches for spring break, some of those students that went to the beaches, later tested positive. Businesses that can operate safely should be allowed to open. Businesses that can't, should not. Science should be the determining factor. Not politics. Wisconsin reopened two weeks ago and is now reporting its highest daily increase in COVID-19 Cases.

    https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pan...covid-19-cases

    I don't think you or Rick understand how deadly or contagious this disease is. We've already experienced over 100,000 deaths over a 2 1/2 month period.



    People from the Bronx could easily travel to Brooklyn or Queens.
    Then why are so many people wearing gloves ? Especially every health professional ?

    Please re-read what I posted. Then look up the literature. When hydroxychloroquine is given to patients with mild to moderate symptoms it works. As much as 90% of the time. With zero to no side effects. If you LISTEN to doctors who actually treat covid patients they will tell you much better than I. They ALL prescribe it. The studies saying different like the V.A. study were skewed to have a much older than average patient group. And it included a LOT of patients with PRE-EXISTING cardiac and/or pulmonary issues not to mention circulatory and immune issues. In short the patients studied were VERY unhealthy to begin with.
    There is a laundry list of drugs in common usage that were never subjected to double blind testing that are used safely and effectively today such as penicillin, sulfa drugs and the polio vaccines.

    If you observe sensible spacing it is very, very hard to be infected with anything ( including covid ) outdoors. Italy got infected by an influx of covid positive people from CHINA !

    I am not afraid of Covid. Neither is Bill Maher or Michael Moore.

    One of the problems with assessing where we are and then deciding where and how we ought to go ( and WHEN ) is the stats have been put into a figurative blender and then poured out. We have stats for positive viral tests ; for anti-body tests BUT at least 65% of those people are NOT sick. They have no symptoms.And NEVER did.
    Having a positive test AND actually being treated for Covid are two different things. So is testing positive and being told to self-quarantine for ( now ) 10 days. It was 14 days but now the consensus is 10 days WITHOUT symptoms. The death numbers ; the ICU numbers ;the hospital admission numbers ( except for Alabama ) have all been going DOWN. The shutdown was sold by the CDC ; by Trump ; by our governors as a necessary evil to keep our hospitals from being overrun and overwhelmed with Covid patients. Except for Montgomery, Alabama that is not happening anywhere in the U.S. NYC came close but the situation now is like day and night. The Javits Center is closed and the Comfort has sailed away. Testing is way up. Especially antibody testing. All that tells you is whether or not someone was exposed to Covid. In dense urban areas like NYC it is possible that half of the total population was exposed. Afaic that is meaningless. What matters is whether or not you have active virus ; whether or not you are infectious.

    If you control for old age, pre-existing conditions and immune suppression the death rate from Covid is LOWER than that of the flu . California and Florida were very pro-active in protecting the elderly and locking down nursing homes and adult care facilities. Cali also used a very strict and comprehensive lockdown , Florida did not. Their covid numbers are comparable. Whether you look at overall death rate ; hospital admissions ; ICU stays ; any metric you like; their experiences have been comparable.

    People from the Bronx can travel. They can also go Upstate and out to Long Island ; both of which are opening up so your point is what ? We should quarantine the entire Bronx ? For how long ? Will that include the Yankees ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-29-2020 at 11:30 AM.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    One farm in Tennessee distributed Covid-19 tests to all of its workers after an employee came down with the virus. It turned out that every single one of its roughly 200 employees had been infected.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...eve-of-harvest

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    When American Indians were arrested for smoking an illegal substance during a religious ceremony, the Supreme Court upheld the arrest. If states can legally ban certain substances from being smoked in religious ceremonies, they can certainly prohibit religious services when there is likelihood that a deadly virus will be transmitted at those services. As I said before, over 30 pastors in the Bible belt, who held in-person services, have died from the viurs. Why would you want more of this?
    Sadly, you are right that the Supreme Court upheld state and Federal drug laws interfering with Native American use of peyote in their religious ceremonies. Ignoring how during Prohibition sacramental wine was permitted. So what ?

    I am NOT advocating for carte blanche. I AM saying that religious ceremonies can occur with REASONABLE limitations and protective measures. It was not too long ago when police in Kentucky tried to break up outdoor , drive in services. And then they were writing down license plates. Do you support banning drive in worship ? What about Bible study in private homes ? Prayer circles on a beach or in a park ? How far do you want to go in your quest to suppress religious expression ? What about all the corollary benefits from religion ? The lower drug and alcohol use ? Less domestic violence ? Greater self-esteem and peace of mind ? Gee ! the same sort of corollary benefits we get from W O R K ! Wow ! Who'd a thunk it ?
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    One farm in Tennessee distributed Covid-19 tests to all of its workers after an employee came down with the virus. It turned out that every single one of its roughly 200 employees had been infected.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...eve-of-harvest
    No they were EXPOSED . How many are sick ? Sick with covid is NOT the same as exposed. How many have ACTIVE virus ? This is what I am talking about with blending and interchanging stats.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    No they were EXPOSED . How many are sick ? Sick with covid is NOT the same as exposed. How many have ACTIVE virus ? This is what I am talking about with blending and interchanging stats.
    The article specifically states they were infected.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Sadly, you are right that the Supreme Court upheld state and Federal drug laws interfering with Native American use of peyote in their religious ceremonies. Ignoring how during Prohibition sacramental wine was permitted. So what ?

    I am NOT advocating for carte blanche. I AM saying that religious ceremonies can occur with REASONABLE limitations and protective measures. It was not too long ago when police in Kentucky tried to break up outdoor , drive in services. And then they were writing down license plates. Do you support banning drive in worship ? What about Bible study in private homes ? Prayer circles on a beach or in a park ? How far do you want to go in your quest to suppress religious expression ? What about all the corollary benefits from religion ? The lower drug and alcohol use ? Less domestic violence ? Greater self-esteem and peace of mind ? Gee ! the same sort of corollary benefits we get from W O R K ! Wow ! Who'd a thunk it ?
    I don't have a problem with people staying in their cars. Approximately 90% of churches have stopped having in-person services. If they're able to do without it, I don't see why the rest aren't. I know people whose churches have online services and I know people who had their Passover Seder online. It's 2020. There are many alternatives to doing things in person.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Please READ your own link. They were infected i.e. EXPOSED to the virus. As in every other meat plant where at least one worker came down with SYMPTOMS. No surprise given the working conditions , lousy sanitation and lack of protective equipment. It does NOT say that they are all sick or that they all came down with symptoms. In fact it says nothing of the sort. It does NOT say how many have active virus i.e. are INFECTIOUS i.e. can expose someone else and make them sick.

    I am not trying to minimize this and other legitimate concerns. Afaic the whole plant should be shut down , deep cleaned and sanitized. All the workers ought to self-quarantine for at least 10 days BUT assuming that they live like many illegals and/or low income workers that will be difficult to impossible.

    Even if I had my druthers and most of the country reopened tomorrow with sensible measures taken and within sensible limitations there will be further outbreaks and hot spots. Which we have dealt with and can continue to do so. I am arguing for balance between self-protection and vital economic activity necessary to begin to repair the severe economic damage this country has suffered. One quarter of our workers are unemployed. That is unsustainable.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I don't have a problem with people staying in their cars. Approximately 90% of churches have stopped having in-person services. If they're able to do without it, I don't see why the rest aren't. I know people whose churches have online services and I know people who had their Passover Seder online. It's 2020. There are many alternatives to doing things in person.
    I am very sorry but WHO ARE YOU to dictate how people get to worship ? More to the point , where do Governors get authority to make those decisions ? The language of the First Amendment is very clear. There is no exception for war , fire, flood or pandemic.

    While you might be somewhat tolerant too many governors think they do have the right to stop ALL religious services and activity. Including drive in and/or drive by worship.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    "Infected" means they have the virus and can infect others.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=infe...q=infected+def
    (of a person, organism, etc.) affected with a disease-causing organism.
    All 200 workers were tested and all 200 were infected. Not everyone who's been infected has symptoms, which is why so many precautions are necessary. There's no way to know who has the virus.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Your link does NOT say that. But let's assume that it does. If true , they should all be quarantined. However given how the terminology has been mixed and matched so far , I have my doubts that all 200 are infectious. Possible but more likely they were all exposed. Infected and infectious are two different things. Your link does NOT say if they received anti-body testing or active viral testing.
    A
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    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I am very sorry but WHO ARE YOU to dictate how people get to worship ? More to the point , where do Governors get authority to make those decisions ? The language of the First Amendment is very clear. There is no exception for war , fire, flood or pandemic.

    While you might be somewhat tolerant too many governors think they do have the right to stop ALL religious services and activity. Including drive in and/or drive by worship.
    There are limits to how far freedom of religion goes. For example, human sacrifice is against the law. It is not protected by the First Amendment. Holding services in a crowded church during a deadly pandemic isn't much different than human sacrifice. Again, over 30 pastors have died, and probably countless parishoners. Just one single choir practice in Washington with 60 people, led to 53 hospitalizations and 2 deaths from COVID-19.

    One reason why church services could be especially deadly is because a disproportionate number of church attendees are elderly.

    Nobody is trying to stop all religious services and activity, only what is not safe.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    If you observe sensible spacing it is very, very hard to be infected with anything ( including covid ) outdoors. Italy got infected by an influx of covid positive people from CHINA !
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...adly-outbreak/

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I am not afraid of Covid. Neither is Bill Maher or Michael Moore.
    Not being afraid isn't going to protect you, and not being afraid doesn't change the fact that over 100,000 Americans have died from the virus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    If you control for old age, pre-existing conditions and immune suppression the death rate from Covid is LOWER than that of the flu . California and Florida were very pro-active in protecting the elderly and locking down nursing homes and adult care facilities. Cali also used a very strict and comprehensive lockdown , Florida did not. Their covid numbers are comparable. Whether you look at overall death rate ; hospital admissions ; ICU stays ; any metric you like; their experiences have been comparable.
    No it isn't. A higher percentage of flu deaths occur among the elderly than with COVID-19.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    People from the Bronx can travel. They can also go Upstate and out to Long Island ; both of which are opening up so your point is what ? We should quarantine the entire Bronx ? For how long ? Will that include the Yankees ?
    Far more people travel to local areas than distant areas. Yankees have cancelled all of their games so far.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    RN notes on exposed vs infected:

    You can be "exposed" with OR without becoming "infected".

    You can be INFECTED without showing SYMPTOMS.

    Another way of saying this is, infected does not necessarily mean they are showing symptoms, but they ARE CONTAGEOUS.

    So if 200 were infected, that means they were both exposed (meaning the point at which the virus makes contact with the person's outer boundaries, in this case mucous membranes) AND then that it got deeper into their body and started producing more virus, which is contagious WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOW SYMPTOMS.

    There's a lot of confusion about the virus, but one thing that is well known at this point for certain is that you can have the virus present and replicating in your body while feeling totally fine AND being able to spread it to others at the same time.

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    Default Re: As states reopen, here’s how you protect yourself from the coming surge

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You may want to re-read those cases. First of all , state vs. religion cases are a confused quagmire of inconsistent jurisprudence. However the Supreme Court has made it clear that ANY state interference with religious activity of any kind is subject to strict scrutiny. The state must show much more than just a rational basis.Their reasons must be compelling AND they must show that there are no alternatives. Most , maybe not all , but most state regulation of church services fails the test.
    Last night the Supreme Court ruled against a church in California that challenged the state's stay at home orders.

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