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Thread: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

  1. #26
    God/dess Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel View Post
    And i would have done the same. How the fuck am i supposed to know who these dudes are. They were in plain clothes. They didn't announce themselves! I'm supposed to just Crystal Ball that they're cops? What idiocy is this?? You want me to lay out the Tarot deck before i do anything?

    These fucking idiots can't actually find her EX? Some Cops. Her ex Who DOES NOT LIVE THERE BTW! The Keystone Cops.
    I have agreed that the police were reckless. Which had a LOT to do with Louisville deciding to pay $12 MILLION to Taylor's estate. That's more than Louima got ; more than Diallo's family ; more than Garner's family. And Louisville reformed various raid procedures to try and avoid a repeat of this tragedy.
    I also agree that in some states this is a classic case of involuntary manslaughter. I have raised the issue as to whether, as written, Kentucky's statutes are flawed. To not indict for some sort of criminal negligence seems to be unjust imho. I was NOT on the grand jury. Neither was any other S-webber. There may be a chance of a second bite of the apple with a Federal Civil Rights investigation and prosecution. But that is a tough row to hoe. Obama's Justice Dept. did not decide to prosecute Pantaleo for killing Eric Garner. I thought they should have. Ask Loretta Lynch why they didn't when she was U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of N.Y. and then Attorney General.

    The police KNEW where Taylor's ex was. They had him in custody.

    Walker was NOT penalized. He was not prosecuted. Charges were never filed against him. Under Kentucky law he did not commit a crime. The same laws that protected Walker from prosecution also worked to keep the police from being indicted for some sort of manslaughter.

    This illustrates the problem with too many of these cases. The facts get ignored in favor of feelings and emotion. According to some BLM and Anti-Fa extremists ( cheered on by their media and political supporters ), current situations, incidents etc. must be filtered through past history and past grievances. That corrupts justice. It doesn't help us find it.

    For instance, 3 of the 4 Minneapolis cops charged with murder in the George Floyd case have a good chance of acquittal.
    Not Chauvin but the other three. Why ? Very little evidence of intent and they were overcharged by Ellison for political reasons. I am NOT saying they will be or should be but thanks to Ellison they very well might. There are facts that may mitigate their guilt. We will see.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 09-25-2020 at 10:48 AM.
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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    There are kernels of truth contained in the reports you cite. First things first - 1.Cameron was not the arbiter of whether or not there was probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. That was the sole province of the grand jury. 2. Walker was not charged with any crime. Under Kentucky law he was engaging in self-defense. Issues having to do with who said what ; whether the police AUDIBLY announced themselves etc. actually go more to the decision not to prosecute Walker than other issues in the case. And he only fired one shot. 3.The other ear-witnesses were asleep when the raid began. The police chose to conduct this raid AFTER Midnight. In almost every case where an innocent homeowner or occupant is mistakenly shot during a police raid ; it involves a warrant execution AT NIGHT. Often late at night or just before dawn. Louisville took this into account when they revised certain police procedures in the wake of Ms. Taylor's killing. 4. Taylor was NOT asleep. She was shot standing up BEHIND Walker. Only one of the six bullets that struck her was fatal. 5. At the time of the raid the EX-boyfriend was already in custody so he clearly was not the immediate target. According to the warrant application , HIS drugs and HIS drug money were. Again, this makes the timing of the raid highly questionable. Especially because no drugs were found and I guarantee you the police tried VERY hard to find something , anything to provide even a small legal fig leaf for what they did. I am sure they were not neat and did not clean up their mess. Despite their allegation that Taylor "stashed" her ex's drug money they did not recover any.

    I agree with you that there was recklessness by the police in this case. Which is why I said that in N.Y. there would probably be grounds for an involuntary manslaughter indictment. A conviction would be difficult but not impossible. ( I still think the Diallo case was very poorly prosecuted having listened to and/or watched most of the trial. The performance of the prosecution was poor . Particularly the cross-examination of the defendants. ) I also said that Kentucky law may be flawed. For instance, under Kentucky law it is crucial that none of the indicted officer's bullets struck Taylor and that the other two's bullets were the ones that did. It seems to me that they were acting in concert and that they may have lied ( intentionally or not ) to get the warrant . They were undoubtedly helped by the fact that Walker fired first and that his one shot struck one of the police officers in the leg.

    Before anyone gets their hopes up for a Federal Civil Rights prosecution please note that the Feds have to believe that there was INTENT to deprive Taylor of her Constitutional rights and that is not an easy hurdle to get over. If , IF it is shown that the police lied to get their warrant or relied on patently flimsy information that might be enough to at least get it before a Federal grand jury. Maybe but don't bet on it.
    I would say that the recklessness of the police and the police dept rises to the criminal level. If this was just about drugs, the police could have easily searched the apartment when nobody was there, especially, given that they lived in an apt. where the landlord probably would have had the key. Everyone involved should be prosecuted. There has to be price to pay when innocent people are killed as a result of reckless behavior by the police. The $12 million payment is meaningless because it comes from the taxpayers, not the people who were responsible. This payment sends a message to the police that they're free to engage in reckless behavior that endangers peoples' lives, and if someone is killed, the taxpayers will take full responsibility.

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  5. #28
    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Walker was NOT penalized. He was not prosecuted.
    She, the most innocent, sure as fuck was. She paid for this shit with her LIFE!!
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Eric,

    BTW, GOD you write essays for free.

    Silly if you ask me. Never catch me doing that.

    I expect to be PAID for my writing. This is why my posts are so short.
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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  9. #30
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    OP, we will never agree on this topic. Breonna's family would rather have her home and alive than any dollar amount. These cops fucked up the execution of their no knock warrant. FOR WHAT? Some dumb narcotics arrests? So goes the giant waste of US taxpayer dollars known as "The War On Drugs."

    It's a great and terrible miscarriage of Justice.

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  11. #31
    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Honey, I"M THE OP, and i fully agree with YOU.
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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  13. #32
    God/dess Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel View Post
    Eric,

    BTW, GOD you write essays for free.

    Silly if you ask me. Never catch me doing that.

    I expect to be PAID for my writing. This is why my posts are so short.
    I'm sorry but it takes time and space to post facts that support my opinions.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    God/dess Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I would say that the recklessness of the police and the police dept rises to the criminal level. If this was just about drugs, the police could have easily searched the apartment when nobody was there, especially, given that they lived in an apt. where the landlord probably would have had the key. Everyone involved should be prosecuted. There has to be price to pay when innocent people are killed as a result of reckless behavior by the police. The $12 million payment is meaningless because it comes from the taxpayers, not the people who were responsible. This payment sends a message to the police that they're free to engage in reckless behavior that endangers peoples' lives, and if someone is killed, the taxpayers will take full responsibility.
    Sad but true. It has been that way for generations. The constables blunder and the taxpayers foot the bill.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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  16. #34
    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I'm sorry but it takes time and space to post facts that support my opinions.
    Yeah, i feel like that as well. It's not worth it, the other poster can either do their own research, or just disbelieve You/Me.

    I got nothing against that answer.
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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    Veteran Member kamiliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    “Kevin Glogower, the juror's lawyer, told the Times that the juror approached him after Cameron claimed during a news conference that state law prevented him from charging Mattingly and Cosgrove.“
    https://www.salon.com/2020/09/29/bre...-who-shot-her/

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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ......To not indict for some sort of criminal negligence seems to be unjust imho. I was NOT on the grand jury. Neither was any other S-webber.....
    Grand jury testimony being released may expose that the witness who said he heard the police announce themselves, said he did not hear it on the two previous interviews. The only 1 witness that said they heard the police announce themselves before they broke in. It is unclear if the grand jury knew they changed their story.
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I was NOT on the grand jury. Neither was any other S-webber.
    It's very unlikely but this is a rather bold statement in my opinion when it's impossible for you to verify. The grand jury roster for this case is not public. And even if you did for some reason have access to the roster, SW is an anonymous website and you have no idea who is using it.
    Now he said it a third time, and Ona drew a deep breath;

  21. #38
    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by CFMNH44 View Post
    Grand jury testimony being released may expose that the witness who said he heard the police announce themselves, said he did not hear it on the two previous interviews. The only 1 witness that said they heard the police announce themselves before they broke in. It is unclear if the grand jury knew they changed their story.
    One. Others didn't hear it. There were more than one witness, and all but one didn't hear shit. Cops SHOUT when they are letting you know they're Cops. So unless they whispered that they were cops, it looks like we've got a Police Fan, here.
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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  23. #39
    God/dess Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by lynn2009 View Post
    It's very unlikely but this is a rather bold statement in my opinion when it's impossible for you to verify. The grand jury roster for this case is not public. And even if you did for some reason have access to the roster, SW is an anonymous website and you have no idea who is using it.
    You have a technical point. AFAIK , no S-webber was on the grand jury. Nobody has come forward to say that they heard the evidence that the grand jury did in the way that they heard it.

    According to some news accounts from yesterday it may ( repeat MAY ) be the case that the Kentucky A.G. Daniel Cameron queered the pitch in his grand jury presentation. Apparently he did not present homicide charges to the grand jury. It appears, repeat APPEARS, that he and he alone determined that the police who fired the fatal shots were justified in using their weapons. With a grand jury it is all in the presentation. It is a one-sided process. The D.A. determines what evidence to present and what to leave out.

    Now before anyone has a knee jerk reaction I strongly urge them to READ the recent analysis by Professor Michael Mannheimer of the Salmon P. Chase College of Law at Northern Kentucky University. While explaining the logic behind the grand jury decision he holds out the possibilities that they got the facts wrong and that Taylor's 4th Amendment rights may have been violated e.g. by a dead of night warrant execution ; that it may have lacked probable cause to believe there were drugs in the apartment ( and there were NOT ! ) and it may have been based on an inadequate or even perjurious affidavit.

    In medicine , the first rule is " Do no harm ". Why shouldn't police work have the same basic tenet ? In too many departments police are judged on volume. Quantity of arrests vs. their quality ; quantity of drugs seized vs. how much ended up being admissible because all the 4th Amendment boxes were checked. That's how they get promoted and commended. Not to mention civil forfeiture which has led to far too many gross abuses and miscarriages of justice.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 09-30-2020 at 08:46 AM.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In medicine , the first rule is " Do no harm ". Why shouldn't police work have the same basic tenet ? In too many departments police are judged on volume. Quantity of arrests vs. their quality ; quantity of drugs seized vs. how much ended up being admissible because all the 4th Amendment boxes were checked. That's how they get promoted and commended. Not to mention civil forfeiture which has led to far too many gross abuses and miscarriages of justice.
    Yeah, I agree. The problem is that, while a lot of cops join up (Probably most) with a sincere desire to help others, some join up with the idea of ruling over others, they dig the power. We need to keep the former, and BOOT the latter. The former will show up to help, the latter won't. They show up and just boss people around.

    Everyone has experience with a good Cop. Everyone has experience with a bad Cop.
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  26. #41
    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    BTW, if they announced themselves and he shot at them anyway, why isn't he in jail today? Get that shit through your head! They didn't fucking announce themselves.
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

  27. #42
    God/dess Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel View Post
    BTW, if they announced themselves and he shot at them anyway, why isn't he in jail today? Get that shit through your head! They didn't fucking announce themselves.
    It is starting to look as though they did not. Whatever they did in that regard it was certainly not adequate and the whole raid was NOT necessary.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

  28. #43
    Featured Member Raziel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breonna Taylor's murderers get AWAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    It is starting to look as though they did not. Whatever they did in that regard it was certainly not adequate and the whole raid was NOT necessary.
    Exactly, Sir. Agreed fully.

    Especially since the guy didn't live there and they already had him in custody. Don't these people talk to each other? This didn't have to happen!
    Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it

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