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Thread: Covid news

  1. #401
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    Default Re: Covid news

    I spent years commuting to NYC every day for work and it was pure drudgery. Adding up the drive to the commuter train station, wait time on the platform, the train ride itself and then the walk from Grand Central to my office, it was a 2 hour commute each way. So 4 hours of commuting on top of a 10+ hour work day. It especially sucked in the winter and on rainy days. I did it of course for the money, which was better there than anywhere else.

    But now that people have had a year and a half not dealing with that, many of them don't want to go back. Now if every financial services firm was rowing in the same direction then they might not have a choice, but some savvy firms are using continued remote work as a recruiting tool to poach valuable employees from their rivals. A similar phenomenon is happening in tech and other firms as well. IDK, but honestly I'm becoming increasingly skeptical about the genie ever being put completely back in the bottle.

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  3. #402
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Florida has had 3.64 million Covid cases ( i.e. that many people tested positive for Covid ). Some got sick. Some got very sick. Some had to be hospitalized. Many had no symptoms at all. As of yesterday Florida had 58,803 people die who tested positive for Covid. As with every other state some died from Covid and many died from something else with Covid being a contributing cause in SOME cases. Despite the categorical refusal of Fauci et. al. to really analyze the data a LOT of the deaths among children and young adults occurred with patients who were otherwise seriously ill. Many had cancer and were taking chemo. Others had compromised immune systems. A LOT were morbidly obese. Obesity is roughly the equivalent of old age as a co-factor for Covid mortality. Anyway Florida's rates are lower than those of Texas - 4.2 million cases and 70,593 deaths and California 4.87 million cases and 71,528 deaths. Florida's deaths per 100,000 is 273. It is 313 per 100,000 in N.J. and 289 in N.Y. If DeSantis is a "sociopath" then what do these numbers make Phil Murphy in N.J. and Cuomo in N.Y. ? Crypto sociopaths ? Unlike Murphy and Cuomo , DeSantis protected nursing home residents. He did not flood them with Covid positive patients the way Murphy and Cuomo did.
    No, Florida had 58,803 people died from covid. You're just repeating a conspiracy theory.

    Yes, Cuomo is a sociopath. Maybe Murphy is or isn't, but he was clearly negligent in sending seniors who had covid to nursing homes. DeSantis knows his actions are going to result in people dying, yet that doesn't stop him.

  4. #403
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    Default Re: Covid news

    No Eagle. And we have discussed this many times. If you die from ANYTHING and are Covid positive you are counted as a Covid death. There is no "conspiracy" to it. Before you go further off the edge I will say that most people who were Covid positive and died had Covid as their cause of death. But that's not all the deaths. There are reports that people who were in accidents or were shot were counted as Covid deaths. Not surprising or conspiratorial when you remember that Covid relief and assistance to cities , states and hospitals was based on their Covid numbers. The more Covid cases the more money they got. That is not me parroting some loony web-site. Doctors with background and experience in infectious diseases have said the same thing. People who actually work at the hospitals where the deaths occurred have done likewise. If you disagree with them and insist that a Covid is a Covid is a Covid regardless of anything else about the patient then you have a LOT of work to do to straighten out a LOT of health professionals.

    And if someone thinks that I am trying to minimize the seriousness of Covid or pretend that it is not a deadly disease they are very much mistaken. I even support vaccine mandates absent a valid medical excuse.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-26-2021 at 12:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Covid news

    https://www.aha.org/news/blog/2020-0...ving-hospitals

    For the last several months, disturbing and unproven theories have gained traction – mostly on social media – about the death count for COVID-19.

    Hospitals and health systems are eligible to receive higher payments for complex COVID-19-related treatment under the CARES Act – that much is true.

    But there are several myths out there too. We need to set the record straight.

    Hospitals do not receive extra funds when patients die from COVID-19. They are not over-reporting COVID-19 cases. And, they are not making money on treating COVID-19.

    The truth is, hospitals and health systems are in their worst financial shape in decades due to the coronavirus. In some cases, the situation is truly dire. An AHA report estimates total losses for our nation’s hospitals and health systems of least $323 billion in 2020. There is no windfall here.

    Further, hospitals and health systems adhere to strict coding guidelines, and use of the COVID-19 code for Medicare claims is reserved for confirmed cases. Coding inappropriately can result in criminal penalties and exclusion from the Medicare program altogether.

    According to the CDC, there have been as many as 223,000 more deaths this year compared to a typical year. There have been 180,000 deaths due to COVID-19. There is no reasonable explanation for the increased deaths other than the coronavirus.

    The professionals of America’s hospitals and health systems are focused on saving lives and treating illnesses – period. They shouldn’t have to waste precious time debunking theories that are offensive and untrue.

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  8. #405
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No, Florida had 58,803 people died from covid. You're just repeating a conspiracy theory.

    Yes, Cuomo is a sociopath. Maybe Murphy is or isn't, but he was clearly negligent in sending seniors who had covid to nursing homes. DeSantis knows his actions are going to result in people dying, yet that doesn't stop him.
    As was clear from the state's that did lock down for long stretches, a good chunk of those people were going to die no matter what DeSantis did. Shoot if we're being candid, most of them would have been dead by now of natural causes or their other comorbidities anyway.

    Florida has 22 million people, including many who rely upon Florida's service economy to thrive. This includes 2 million school children, a certain % of whom are low income. COVID was not the Governor's only worry, even if it yours. The long-term economic and psychological welfare of the larger population also merited consideration, as did the long-term educational consequences of shutting down schools for 2 million kids.

    Again, agree or disagree, but until you stop believing that it was every Governor's job to try to prevent every infection possible at all costs, you're never going to grasp the concept of tradeoffs. There are emotional elements to either side of this argument. I'm guessing that you have a salary that was safe during COVID and are childless, so for you maybe COVID IS the primary concern. But for parents of school age kids and those with variable incomes relying upon sales of good and services there are a lot of competing priorities to consider, especially when COVID was not especially dangerous to most of them.

    It's funny, but here in the land of milk and honey we're not even talking about COVID anymore. The economy is going gangbuster - no vacant boarded up retail locations around here. Our kids are where they are supposed to be educationally and socially. Birthday parties, sporting events, social gatherings, etc., all proceed as normal. And of course we don't have a large % of our population living as wards of the state, reliant upon never-ending transfer payments to survive. Even our strip clubs are thriving.

    Life is good here in FL. Really good.

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  10. #406
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Can't help but notice how many Florida plates are suddenly showing up in CA. Texas too. Must not be so great if people are escaping by the droves lol. Can't blame them. I'd run for safety too!

  11. #407
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by LoveyD View Post
    Can't help but notice how many Florida plates are suddenly showing up in CA. Texas too. Must not be so great if people are escaping by the droves lol. Can't blame them. I'd run for safety too!
    Oh please. Those are mostly former Cali residents who moved to Florida and went back to visit. Or pick up the cat they left behind. Last time I was in Florida I saw a LOT of plates from N.Y. , N.J. and California.
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  13. #408
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Rick - I've been naughty and am just as guilty as some others but let's ALL try to avoid personalizing as much as possible.
    A
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  14. #409
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    https://www.aha.org/news/blog/2020-0...ving-hospitals

    For the last several months, disturbing and unproven theories have gained traction – mostly on social media – about the death count for COVID-19.

    Hospitals and health systems are eligible to receive higher payments for complex COVID-19-related treatment under the CARES Act – that much is true.

    But there are several myths out there too. We need to set the record straight.

    Hospitals do not receive extra funds when patients die from COVID-19. They are not over-reporting COVID-19 cases. And, they are not making money on treating COVID-19.

    The truth is, hospitals and health systems are in their worst financial shape in decades due to the coronavirus. In some cases, the situation is truly dire. An AHA report estimates total losses for our nation’s hospitals and health systems of least $323 billion in 2020. There is no windfall here.

    Further, hospitals and health systems adhere to strict coding guidelines, and use of the COVID-19 code for Medicare claims is reserved for confirmed cases. Coding inappropriately can result in criminal penalties and exclusion from the Medicare program altogether.

    According to the CDC, there have been as many as 223,000 more deaths this year compared to a typical year. There have been 180,000 deaths due to COVID-19. There is no reasonable explanation for the increased deaths other than the coronavirus.

    The professionals of America’s hospitals and health systems are focused on saving lives and treating illnesses – period. They shouldn’t have to waste precious time debunking theories that are offensive and untrue.
    Thanks for posting that Eagle. It caused me to dig into and review the Covid death numbers. In short , it's complicated.

    The AAMC ( Association of American Medical Colleges ) did a review of Covid death reporting and the still existing confusion over "Dying from Covid:" vs. "Dying With Covid". First of all, very early in the pandemic here in the U.S. Covid deaths were most likely UNDER-reported and probably undercounted . Lack of testing , overwhelmed doctors and medical examiners and simple lack of knowledge probably caused Covid deaths to be undercounted.
    In April 2020, Dr. Deborah Birx then Coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force said : " If someone dies WITH Covid -19 we are counting that as a Covid-19 death." Some state health officials effectively followed suit until the CDC issued clear guidelines and said that for it to be a "Covid death " and be counted as such "Covid had to play a role " in causing the death. There was still a LOT of leeway in the guidelines. Covid kills primarily by causing pneumonia, respiratory failure , systemic inflammation and blood clots. Those clots can turn into embolisms and cause acute respiratory failure, strokes and heart attacks. Many Covid victims had all sorts of co-morbidities with old age , dementia , Alzheimer's , diabetes , hypertension and heart disease leading the list. Add in cancer patients on or off chemo ; others taking immuno-suppressants or with otherwise compromised immune systems and they make up the overwhelming number of Covid deaths. According to TREATING doctors surveyed by the AAMC , Covid is an accelerant in mortality for most of those patients i.e. they would have died anyway , sooner or later , but departed much faster thanks to Covid.In other words these were patients expected to die anyway within 1 to 12 months. I have seen estimates ranging from 10% to 30% of all Covid deaths.

    As for the initial undercount, the CDC looked at overall death numbers for 2018 and 2019 and compared them to 2020 and the first nine months of 2021. There was a rough increase of about 300,000 deaths. Even without correcting for population increase the CDC decided that almost all of those deaths were from Covid. They did NOT count the increased suicides and overdoses attributed to depression and increased drug use caused by the shutdowns AFAIK. If anyone knows different please chime in. I said at the beginning of this post : " It's complicated".

    HOSPITAL death certificates are usually filled out by the treating doctor. Hospitals and doctors were instructed by the CDC to "use your best clinical judgement " in listing a cause of death if the decedent was Covid positive. If Covid is listed as a contributing factor the CDC counts it as a Covid related death. The CDC numbers do NOT differentiate between " Covid caused deaths " and deaths where Covid just "contributed". The CDC numbers are based on what the death certificates say. Do TREATING doctors really fill out the death certificates ? Generally NO. Certainly NOT at the height of the pandemic. Usually it's a 4th year medical student ,an intern or 1st year resident and the TREATING doctor is supposed to read it , make any corrections and sign it. I have gotten that from EVERY doctor I have asked. ( When my own mother passed away ; at home ; on a Sunday it was a LOT of fun trying to get a doctor to sign the damn death certificate so I could get her remains into the funeral home. So I know about this stuff FIRST Hand. Yes, I got it done but it was a mega hassle. )
    Without cooking the books or doing anything wrong or dishonest per se it is both possible and in their interest for hospitals to boost their Covid numbers. It is true as Eagle's link points out that the incentive is in TREATING Covid patients and not necessarily in having Covid patients die in the hospital.

    The bottom line is that it probably does not matter too much if someone died "with Covid" or "from Covid", While there were a few extreme cases early on where anyone who died while being Covid positive was counted as a Covid death there was also undercounting at the same time. After the CDC clarified its guidelines it is now highly likely that for anyone who died "with Covid " that it at least contributed to their death. Only 6% of death certificates list Covid as the ONLY cause of death. 60% of Covid death certificates listed at least one co-morbidity; 40% listed two or more. How much Covid contributed to the death is where the variations come in and where the gray areas can be found. It's complicated.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-28-2021 at 09:17 AM.
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    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Veteran Member LoveyD's Avatar
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    I get my booster tomorrow! Yay!

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  17. #411
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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Rick - I've been naughty and am just as guilty as some others but let's ALL try to avoid personalizing as much as possible.
    Eric, no personal attack intended with that post. There's nothing wrong with having a stable salary or not having kids. The point was merely to highlight that perspective matters. Someone who doesn't need to interact with others to make a living or worry about his/her kids' educational and social development is far more likely to support onerous shutdowns and other mandates than one who has to face more serious consequences when these actions occur. DeSantis is the governor of all 22 million people, including 2 million school aged children, not the governor solely to retirees and others who don't have to worry about schools and variable income.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by LoveyD View Post
    I get my booster tomorrow! Yay!
    I got mine on Friday!

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    Default Re: Covid news

    I think NYC will pick up again. The city has gone through much worse.
    Where Am I? Missing NYC

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Khloe Kardashian and Daughter True Test Positive for COVID-19

    https://www.etonline.com/khloe-karda...ovid-19-174446

    She's been vaccinated. Hopefully this will be a mild case.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    A LOT of vaccinated people are testing positive for Covid. Jen Psaki ; Jon Bon Jovi and thousands of others. The thing is almost none of them are getting seriously sick.
    A
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    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I used to share your misconception that getting vaccinated for Covid protected both the person vaccinated and those around her or him. NOT according to the latest research just published on Friday in The Lancet. The authors said that Covid-19 vaccines have minimal impact on preventing transmission of the Delta strain which now accounts for about 99% of new U.S. cases. As I have posted , vaccination protects the recipient from getting seriously ill; from having to be hospitalized. The protection rate is over 90%. Therefore choosing not to get vaccinated is endangering your own life. NOT those around you. Most vaccines DO protect against getting infected and being infectious. Not Covid vaccines vis a vis the Delta variant. The Lancet findings showed that fully vaccinated people who became infected with Covid infected members of their households at a 25% rate. Unvaccinated people infected household members at a 23% rate. Those vaccinated who became infected had just as much viral load in their upper respiratory systems making them just as contagious as the unvaccinated. According to co-author Ajit Lalvani : "Our findings show that vaccination alone is not enough to prevent people from being infected with the Delta variant and spreading it." The British researchers also found that vaccinated people were 25% likely to be infected with Covid. The unvaccinated were 38% likely to be infected. This directly conflicts with what we have been told by the CDC who have said that the vaccinated were much less likely to be infected. If you do not like their findings please write to the Lancet and make sure to list all of your medical and scientific qualifications to question their research.

    If all we look at are raw Covid numbers then Florida's performance does not look very good. But NYC had a higher death rate than Florida - 405 per 100,000 vs. 229 per 100,000. At least according to the CDC. For the First Quarter of 2021 , Florida's 3 month death rate was 102.3 per 100,000. For the same time period California's was 245; N.Y.'s 155 ; N.J.'s 149 ; Pa.'s 143 ; Maryland 126 ; Nevada 193 and Oklahoma 237. ALL had stricter and more draconian shutdowns and mask requirements than Florida. Today, the death rate for the last Quarter ( through September ) was 277. Still LOWER than N.Y. , Arizona , Louisiana , New Jersey , Alabama and Mississippi. California's was 182.

    Overall Florida's death rate ranks 10th among all 50 states. BUT their age adjusted mortality rate is 24th. That matters because Florida has a LOT of elderly people ( defined by the CDC as over 65 ) and because very few otherwise healthy children get sick from Covid and very , very few die from it. All told Florida had 3.6 million people who tested positive for Covid with 56,667 deaths. The overall case mortality was 1.6%.

    It is true that Florida , along with many other states and countries had a seasonal surge in Covid cases. I was there twice in April and twice more in May . Businesses were open . Masks were not required except in places like Airports and hotel lobbies and other indoor areas EXCEPT the gym , bars and restaurant. So why did they bother ? Why didn't Florida have a surge of cases THEN ? Fewer folks were vaccinated then than now.

    I think you are deliberately misunderstanding what those who had recovered from Covid are saying. I am sure they didn't want to get Covid. But they did. And every study so far says that their immune systems have more and more effective anti-bodies against Cvoid than those who were vaccinated. Their anti-bodies definitely have a longer lasting protective effect than those generated by the vaccine. I refuse to go in circles with you any further. The results of such studies were posted here and can easily be found with a search. If you don't like those studies please write to the authors and the institutions that employ them. In extreme cases perhaps you can get their employers to revoke their passes to the Faculty Lounge.

    Likewise masks have been shown to be mostly, not entirely, but mostly ineffective according to those who actually studied the issue.
    You don't seem to be able to understand this basic facts:

    Covid vaccines DO prevent infections. They're not 100% effective, so there are cases of vaccinated people catching the virus. Vaccinated people who catch the virus can spread it, but they're much less likely to catch the virus in the first place. Even according to the results you posted, where 25% of vaccinated people were infected and 38% of unvaccinated people were infected, it shows being vaccinated reduces infections. 25% is less than 38%.

    For unvaccinated people who have already had the covid, the choice is not between natural immunity from having had the virus or getting vaccinated. It's either only having natural immunity or having natural immunity AND getting vaccinated. Having both is more effective than just having natural immunity. You seem to think, based on your posts, that if you've had covid already, and get vaccinated, you will somehow lose your immunity from having had the virus already. That's not the case. I also read of a recent study that getting vaccinated is 5 times more effective than having had the virus and not being vaccinated. I've also read of people who have had covid, getting it a second time and dying from it. There is no question these people would have been better off if they had gotten vaccinated, even though they had the virus already. I don't understand why you keep saying that natural immunities are more effective than vaccines, when getting vaccinated will not result in losing any natural immunities if you've had the virus before.

    Instead of objectively looking at the facts, you try to get the facts to fit your views. You select one time period that fits your narrative and ignore what doesn't. Again, Florida has the 8th highest death rate from covid. Mississippi, who follows the policies you advocate, had the highest death rate in the world at one point. NY's overall death rate is very high because NY did not go into lockdown right away when they were hit with covid. Washington did, and their death rate is less than one half of Florida's.

    Masks do greatly reduce the spread of covid. Multiple studies have shown that counties with mask mandates saw covid cases decline and counties that didn't saw covid cases increase over the same time period. In AZ, school districts without mask mandates had 3 1/2 times as many covid surges as school districts that had them.

    https://tucson.com/news/local/cdc-st...59c78b692.html

    Asian countries where most people wear masks had much lower death rates than the US. Japan's death rate was approximately 1/15 of America's. In Singapore, where not wearing a mask in public can get you thrown in jail, their death rate is approximately 1/30 of America's. Your judge policies by how much you like them, rather than how effective they are.
    Last edited by eagle2; 11-03-2021 at 04:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Instead of objectively looking at the facts, you try to get the facts to fit your views. You select one time period that fits your narrative and ignore what doesn't. Again, Florida has the 8th highest death rate. Mississippi, who follows the policies you advocate, had the highest death rate in the world at one point. NY's overall death rate is very high because NY did not go into lockdown right away when they were hit with covid. Washington did, and their death rate is less than one half of Florida's.
    Again regarding the single issue fixation, I respond with the following (copy and pasted yet again)...

    As was clear from the states that did lock down for long stretches, a good chunk of those people were going to die no matter what DeSantis did. Shoot if we're being candid, most of them would have been dead by now of natural causes or their other comorbidities anyway. [One new addition] You do realize that Florida has the oldest population of any large state (over 10mm people) in the country, right?

    Florida has 22 million people, including many who rely upon Florida's service economy to thrive. This includes 2 million school children, a certain % of whom are low income. COVID was not the Governor's only worry, even if it yours. The long-term economic and psychological welfare of the larger population also merited consideration, as did the long-term educational consequences of shutting down schools for 2 million kids.

    Again, agree or disagree, but until you stop believing that it was every Governor's job to try to prevent every infection possible at all costs, you're never going to grasp the concept of tradeoffs. There are emotional elements to either side of this argument. I'm guessing that you have a salary that was safe during COVID and are childless, so for you maybe COVID IS the primary concern. But for parents of school age kids and those with variable incomes relying upon sales of good and services there are a lot of competing priorities to consider, especially when COVID was not especially dangerous to most of them.

    It's funny, but here in the land of milk and honey we're not even talking about COVID anymore. The economy is going gangbuster - no vacant boarded up retail locations around here. Our kids are where they are supposed to be educationally and socially. Birthday parties, sporting events, social gatherings, etc., all proceed as normal. And of course we don't have a large % of our population living as wards of the state, reliant upon never-ending transfer payments to survive. Even our strip clubs are thriving.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Again regarding the single issue fixation, I respond with the following (copy and pasted yet again)...

    As was clear from the states that did lock down for long stretches, a good chunk of those people were going to die no matter what DeSantis did. Shoot if we're being candid, most of them would have been dead by now of natural causes or their other comorbidities anyway. [One new addition] You do realize that Florida has the oldest population of any large state (over 10mm people) in the country, right?
    You don't know that. You're just trying to come up with excuses for not taking the necessary measures to protect these people. As of 2007, the avg. life expectancy of a 65 year old American was 18.6 years, and for a 75 year old, 11.7 years.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2010/022.pdf

    That means, on average, a 65 year old dying from covid would lose approximately 18.6 years of life, and a 75 year old would lose 11.7 years.

    Maine's percentage of people over 65 is approximately the same as Florida's. It's slightly higher.

    https://www.prb.org/resources/which-...re-the-oldest/

    Florida's covid death rate is more than 3 times higher than Maine's. If Florida did as well as Maine in preventing covid deaths, 40,000 deaths would have been prevented.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Florida has 22 million people, including many who rely upon Florida's service economy to thrive. This includes 2 million school children, a certain % of whom are low income. COVID was not the Governor's only worry, even if it yours. The long-term economic and psychological welfare of the larger population also merited consideration, as did the long-term educational consequences of shutting down schools for 2 million kids.
    Even without shutting down schools there is a lot that can be done to reduce the likelihood of spreading the disease. Requiring masks and vaccinations for children old enough, greatly reduces the likelihood of outbreaks. My friend's 14 year old daughter's school requires students to get vaccinated if they want to attend class in person. Many colleges and universities are requiring vaccinations. Liberty University, one of the few that didn't, saw 1,200 cases in just 3 weeks.

    https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/health/c...icantly-lower/

    In AZ, school districts that did not have mask mandates had 3 1/2 times as many outbreaks as schools that did.

    https://tucson.com/news/local/cdc-st...59c78b692.html

    While you seem concerned about any long term economic and psychological effects of covid restrictions, you seem to have no concern about long term health, economic, and psychological effects on younger people who catch covid. You're taking this simplistic look that no matter how many people catch covid, the only thing that matters is whether they live or die, and if they're old, it's not a major concern if they do die. You ignore the massive increase in hospitalizations caused by covid, and the long term health effects of people who had a serious case of covid, and survived.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Again, agree or disagree, but until you stop believing that it was every Governor's job to try to prevent every infection possible at all costs, you're never going to grasp the concept of tradeoffs. There are emotional elements to either side of this argument. I'm guessing that you have a salary that was safe during COVID and are childless, so for you maybe COVID IS the primary concern. But for parents of school age kids and those with variable incomes relying upon sales of good and services there are a lot of competing priorities to consider, especially when COVID was not especially dangerous to most of them.

    It's funny, but here in the land of milk and honey we're not even talking about COVID anymore. The economy is going gangbuster - no vacant boarded up retail locations around here. Our kids are where they are supposed to be educationally and socially. Birthday parties, sporting events, social gatherings, etc., all proceed as normal. And of course we don't have a large % of our population living as wards of the state, reliant upon never-ending transfer payments to survive. Even our strip clubs are thriving.
    Maybe you and the people who you associate with, who probably share your views, aren't talking about covid, but I assure you, the families of the 20,000 people who died over the past 3 or 4 months in Florida are still talking about it and are still feeling the effects. So are the people suffering long-term health effects from covid.

    The top priority of the government is to protect the lives of its citizens. Maine's governor was able to protect the citizens in her state, and still managed to keep the state unemployment rate lower than Florida's.
    Last edited by eagle2; 11-03-2021 at 10:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You don't know that. You're just trying to come up with excuses for not taking the necessary measures to protect these people. As of 2007, the avg. life expectancy of a 65 year old American was 18.6 years, and for a 75 year old, 11.7 years.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2010/022.pdf

    That means, on average, a 65 year old dying from covid would lose approximately 18.6 years of life, and a 75 year old would lose 11.7 years.

    Maine's percentage of people over 65 is approximately the same as Florida's. It's slightly higher.

    https://www.prb.org/resources/which-...re-the-oldest/

    Florida's covid death rate is more than 3 times higher than Maine's. If Florida did as well as Maine in preventing covid deaths, 40,000 deaths would have been prevented.

    Even without shutting down schools there is a lot that can be done to reduce the likelihood of spreading the disease. Requiring masks and vaccinations for children old enough, greatly reduces the likelihood of outbreaks. My friend's 14 year old daughter's school requires students to get vaccinated if they want to attend class in person. Many colleges and universities are requiring vaccinations. Liberty University, one of the few that didn't, saw 1,200 cases in just 3 weeks.

    https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/health/c...icantly-lower/

    In AZ, school districts that did not have mask mandates had 3 1/2 times as many outbreaks as schools that did.

    https://tucson.com/news/local/cdc-st...59c78b692.html

    While you seem concerned about any long term economic and psychological effects of covid restrictions, you seem to have no concern about long term health, economic, and psychological effects on younger people who catch covid. You're taking this simplistic look that no matter how many people catch covid, the only thing that matters is whether they live or die, and if they're old, it's not a major concern if they do die. You ignore the massive increase in hospitalizations caused by covid, and the long term health effects of people who had a serious case of covid, and survived.

    Maybe you and the people who you associate with, who probably share your views, aren't talking about covid, but I assure you, the families of the 20,000 people who died over the past 3 or 4 months in Florida are still talking about it and are still feeling the effects. So are the people suffering long-term health effects from covid.

    The top priority of the government is to protect the lives of its citizens. Maine's governor was able to protect the citizens in her state, and still managed to keep the state unemployment rate lower than Florida's.
    Eagle, we have no idea how many fewer people would have died had Desantis locked down and imposed onerous mandates. We've done this little dance before, where you cherry pick some rural state or small isolated country with low population density and then try to say that a state with several urban centers and heavy tourist traffic should have fared just as well. It was goofy then and is no less goofy now. Infection rates and resulting deaths were driven by a variety of factors. Lots of people died in the lockdown states too. MA, NY and NJ - each also with high population density - had even higher death rates.

    So again we have no idea how much onerous lockdowns and mandates would have helped. None. But we do know the devastation that they caused. NYC is a shell of itself and may never recover. Millions of low income kids in several blue states lost a full year of education that they'll never get back. Countless businesses were wiped out for good, resulting in boarded up storefronts. The pediatric mental mental health systems in the blue states continue to be strained. I could go on.

    As far as your points about vaccine and mask mandates for school kids, hogwash. Every reliable piece of evidence makes it clear that they are at much lower risk of infection and have mild symptoms when they do catch it. The only reason to do that stuff to them is to make paranoid and skittish older adults feel more safe. If the blue states want to ease the burdens they are still experiencing on their pediatric mental health systems, they could start by returning kids to normalcy rather than continuing to screw with them to make old adults feel better.

    For every action there is a reaction. When you make kids cover their faces all day, they lose valuable interactive stimulus that they need as part of their emotional development. When you make them get shots that they don't need, you expose them to potential side effects for something that poses essentially zero risk to them in the first place.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You don't seem to be able to understand this basic facts:

    Covid vaccines DO prevent infections. They're not 100% effective, so there are cases of vaccinated people catching the virus. Vaccinated people who catch the virus can spread it, but they're much less likely to catch the virus in the first place. Even according to the results you posted, where 25% of vaccinated people were infected and 38% of unvaccinated people were infected, it shows being vaccinated reduces infections. 25% is less than 38%.

    For unvaccinated people who have already had the covid, the choice is not between natural immunity from having had the virus or getting vaccinated. It's either only having natural immunity or having natural immunity AND getting vaccinated. Having both is more effective than just having natural immunity. You seem to think, based on your posts, that if you've had covid already, and get vaccinated, you will somehow lose your immunity from having had the virus already. That's not the case. I also read of a recent study that getting vaccinated is 5 times more effective than having had the virus and not being vaccinated. I've also read of people who have had covid, getting it a second time and dying from it. There is no question these people would have been better off if they had gotten vaccinated, even though they had the virus already. I don't understand why you keep saying that natural immunities are more effective than vaccines, when getting vaccinated will not result in losing any natural immunities if you've had the virus before.

    Instead of objectively looking at the facts, you try to get the facts to fit your views. You select one time period that fits your narrative and ignore what doesn't. Again, Florida has the 8th highest death rate from covid. Mississippi, who follows the policies you advocate, had the highest death rate in the world at one point. NY's overall death rate is very high because NY did not go into lockdown right away when they were hit with covid. Washington did, and their death rate is less than one half of Florida's.

    Masks do greatly reduce the spread of covid. Multiple studies have shown that counties with mask mandates saw covid cases decline and counties that didn't saw covid cases increase over the same time period. In AZ, school districts without mask mandates had 3 1/2 times as many covid surges as school districts that had them.

    https://tucson.com/news/local/cdc-st...59c78b692.html

    Asian countries where most people wear masks had much lower death rates than the US. Japan's death rate was approximately 1/15 of America's. In Singapore, where not wearing a mask in public can get you thrown in jail, their death rate is approximately 1/30 of America's. Your judge policies by how much you like them, rather than how effective they are.
    Part of this is my fault for getting bored with posting the same thing over and over and not taking the time to post adequately . I will try for greater clarity and specificity in THIS response.

    1. I advocate getting vaccinated. Even for people who have already had Covid, Even for the young and healthy. I am NOT sure about vaccinating young children ( age 5 to 11 ) and for now I think it is best to leave it up to their parents.

    2. According to the CDC immunity from vaccines is more consistent than from being previously infected. Both types of resistance last at least 6 months. RESISTANCE ( as I will explain further on ) is actually a more accurate term than IMMUNITY.

    3. The latest Israeli study helps to explain what I have been trying to convey. It studied three groups of people : Those vaccinated at least 6 months earlier ; Those who were infected at least 6 months earlier and Those who were infected and then got at least one dose of the Pfizer Covid vaccine. Those who had never been infected and were vaccinated in January and February, 2021 were up to 13 times MORE likely to contract Covid than those who were previously infected. The unvaccinated group was twice as likely to be infected again compared to those who got at least one Covid vaccination. This study was conducted while the DELTA variant ( a much more contagious variant ) was dominant. Both those vaccinated and those previously infected have been infected with the Delta variant. The findings suggest that natural resistance provides longer and stronger protection against infection , symptomatic disease and hospitalization. It also showed that those previously infected had additional resistance from one dose of the Pfizer vaccine.

    4. The Israeli findings track a previous study published in NATURE in July which found that the most Covid resistance was created by a previous infection and at least one dose of vaccine.

    5. I NEVER said , intimated or implied that vaccination lowered resistance nor that previously infected people are adequately protected nor that they should not get vaccinated. I made the mistake of picking up the cudgels for those who think that the antibodies produced by their previous exposure to Covid gave them adequate protection. While it seems reasonable to think so the latest research shows pretty clearly that they are WRONG and would benefit from being vaccinated.

    6. Nobody is "immune" to Covid and with the vaccines available will never be immune. Huh ? What ? "Oh Eric how can you possibly say that ? "
    I will explain it as it was explained to me by an M.D. PhD. published expert in Infectious Diseases. The vaccines that we have do NOT prevent exposure to the Covid virus. They do not prevent the virus from getting into vaccinated bodies. The vaccines act by making the body produce antibodies to fight the infection. Some of the science is well beyond my Pay Grade but at least two of the vaccines use spiked proteins that promote antibody production sufficient to let the body produce effective antibodies to fight off and defeat an infection. Thus they are RESISTANT. The Covid vaccines work differently than most vaccines for things like mumps, measles , polio and other viral illnesses. Most flu shots use a weakened and harmless version of the flu virus. It is part of the reason why so many people have at least some reaction to getting vaccinated. Usually more with the second shot than the first. In my case I had no reaction ( none, zip, zero , nada ) to the first shot. A month later I got my second and the following day I had a slight headache , fatigue and a little brain fog or fuzziness for a few hours. And that was it. Others I know ended up with as much as three days of flu like symptoms after their second shot. The way it was explained to me by the Infectious Disease expert was : The First shot helps your body erect defenses and places it "On Alert " so that when you get the Second shot your body is alert and ready to fight off any infection. He also told me that we will almost certainly need to get annual Covid booster shots especially given the ability of the virus to mutate.

    7. Covid deaths are clustered among the elderly. Their immune systems are weaker and they have more co-morbidities. Likewise those who are already sick with a serious illness ranging to the point of being terminally ill are the most vulnerable and will or would have died anyway. That does NOT mean that every elderly victim of Covid was on her " last legs anyway " ( as Bill O'Reilly foolishly said ). They can and should be protected as much as possible. Florida's Covid deaths are clustered among the elderly , the otherwise infirm and the poor with inadequate access to quality medical care. Vaccinated people get less sick less often. The most affected are the least injected and the least protected.
    Like many other states, Florida has a serious lag in Black and Hispanic vaccinations. 17% of Floridians are Black. Overall they are less healthy and have less access to quality health care than Whites. Here is an illustrative timeline :
    5/12/21 - 7% of 9 million Florida vaccinations went to Blacks according to Politico
    8/12/21 - 16% of all Florida Covid deaths were Black. 14% of all Covid cases were Black patients. Only 8% of 12 million vaccinated were Black according to the Miami Herald.
    9/13/21 - Less than a third ( about 30% ) of Florida's Blacks were vaccinated according to WUSF
    10/15/21 - Blacks were half as likely as Whites to be vaccinated according to Bloomberg
    11/2/21 - According to the CDC there has been an uptick in vaccinations among both Blacks and Hispanics but there is still a serious lag compared to Whites.

    Btw, the obesity rate in Florida is 27%. The same as it is in N.J. and N.Y. Florida's age adjusted death rate from or with Covid is LOWER than both of those states.

    8. Another mea culpa for not posting clearly enough about mask usage. They work IF they are the N-95 properly worn or a high grade medical mask properly worn WITH social distancing. Most fabric masks are effectively useless. They merely constitute part of the "costume" needed to get into an airport or on a plane, train or bus. The recent so called "Gold Standard " Bangladesh study is anything but. It has NOT been peer reviewed and there was NO Control Group. Supposedly everybody wore the same grade medical mask and there was a drop in Covid infections. This illustrates the difference between STUDIES ( scientific, peer reviewed with control groups ) and OBSERVATIONS. To date , afaik there has NOT been a single scientific , peer reviewed study with a control group that proves that masks prevent infection. EAGLE ! Please relax and keep reading. That does NOT mean that there is no evidence that masks work and that wearing them is not a good idea. Especially in enclosed areas with poor air circulation. The N-95 has been shown In The Controlled Setting of a LAB to protect both the wearer and those around her or him by almost eliminating the "respiratory cloud". Medical grade masks offer limited protection to the wearer BUT they do substantially reduce the range of respiratory droplets, So requiring them in some settings IS a good idea. A hot issue that has no concrete answer YET is whether it is a good idea to require them to be worn by schoolchildren. To date, there is NO SCIENTIFIC Peer Reviewed STUDY that PROVES that masks work AFAIK. But , But , BUT there ARE statistical analyses that ARE evidence that mask usage reduced infection rates. What we do not know for sure is whether it was also the enforced social distancing , frequent hand washing and sanitizing that were also responsible. I DO NOT have a problem with requiring masks in certain settings. I DO think it is ridiculous to copy Rhinebeck, N.Y. and require that they be worn OUTDOORS .
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 11-04-2021 at 09:52 AM.
    A
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither.
    Teddy Roosevelt

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    Default Re: Covid news

    At some point we are going to have to finally accept the fact that COVID will be here forever, but that it will likely be less impactful as a high % of the population maintains some form of resistance. Every year the elderly, others at risk and those who are simply cautious will get a COVID shot and everyone else will move on with their lives. Basically like we now do for the flu. There will soon enough be an anti-viral medication for COVID much like Tamiflu for those who get infected.

    Some states have already adopted this posture. Here in FL, our events are in full swing again, our kids are fully participating in group events and activities and life has returned to normal. No masks almost anywhere (except medical offices), no vaccine mandates, etc. Shoot my kids are even doing packed birthday parties and sleepovers again. For states still in a defensive posture, I guess they'll decide for themselves how long they want to make kids live in a mode of never-ending paranoia and deal with the fallout from doing so.

    Life moves on.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Totally agree, commuting sucks

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Eagle, we have no idea how many fewer people would have died had Desantis locked down and imposed onerous mandates. We've done this little dance before, where you cherry pick some rural state or small isolated country with low population density and then try to say that a state with several urban centers and heavy tourist traffic should have fared just as well. It was goofy then and is no less goofy now. Infection rates and resulting deaths were driven by a variety of factors. Lots of people died in the lockdown states too. MA, NY and NJ - each also with high population density - had even higher death rates.
    Fuck you with your condescending comments. You're completely ignorant of the facts and science as well. MA, NY, and NJ have high death rates because they didn't lock down when they should have. If you exclude the first two or three months of the pandemic, where they waited too long to lock down, their death rates are far, far lower than Florida's, where your sociopath governor showed complete disregard for the science as well as for the lives of the residents of his state. What you advocate has been proven to be a disaster again and again and again, yet you continue to keep repeating the same nonsensical, anti-science garbage over and over and over again. It's a waste of time to even try to have a discussion with you. You're now on ignore. Your only reason for being here is to harass and troll other members of the forum.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Fuck you with your condescending comments. You're completely ignorant of the facts and science as well. MA, NY, and NJ have high death rates because they didn't lock down when they should have. If you exclude the first two or three months of the pandemic, where they waited too long to lock down, their death rates are far, far lower than Florida's, where your sociopath governor showed complete disregard for the science as well as for the lives of the residents of his state. What you advocate has been proven to be a disaster again and again and again, yet you continue to keep repeating the same nonsensical, anti-science garbage over and over and over again. It's a waste of time to even try to have a discussion with you. You're now on ignore. Your only reason for being here is to harass and troll other members of the forum.
    For starters, every state that locked down did so within a couple of weeks of each other, so I'm not sure how much I'm buying this tunnel vision notion that it was all about the lockdowns. Now did lockdowns help? No doubt, but we really don't know how much. If your theory was true that it was only about lockdowns, then places like South Dakota, North Dakota and Wyoming should be at the very top of the death rate list because they didn't really lock down at all, but they aren't. Wisconsin was one of the states that ended lockdowns early, so if your theory was correct, they should be at the top of the death rate list too but nope - 13th lowest in fact.

    It is you who is so emotionally invested in your own opinion that, in addition to melting down when someone disagrees with your premise, you are ignoring other scientific variables by not acknowledging the well document role of population clusters in spread and mortality rates. Now the reality is that the death rates were most likely influenced by some combination of factors, lockdown timeframes and population clusters being two big ones but not the only ones.

    But by pounding the lockdown drum as if it was the only variable because it conveniently supports your emotionally preferred narrative, IMHO you are missing a much broader picture. Just like you don't want to hear about tradeoffs because you are dug in on the notion that nothing was more important than stopping every single infection. Well sorry eagle, but not everyone agrees with you and it's certainly not trolling to say so. If that makes you want to storm off in a huff and take your ball home, then so be it.

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    Default Re: Covid news

    Goddamn, it was going so well. I hate to have to close the thread.

    'Ignore' is a good thing if it keeps people from having the same argument over and over. We've all done it a few times.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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