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Thread: What's going on in Ukraine?

  1. #226
    Featured Member kamiliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    You were making a point?
    this is very petty. The back and forth where you misinterpret and carry on with what I was possibly unclear on, that turns into really a differing of beliefs; all the poking is gross. I am really hoping this is personal to you in some way. I could be real petty back if I wanted, but I really don't enjoy being that way on the internet on a board where I post both personal and professional things. Btw we are using the internet, you seem just super dismissive of any new media, like fine, but I have read a ton and a lot of books are shit, especially political ones no matter their accreditation. So much thinktank nonsense, you have to and want to publish to succeed in academia. I like to watch, listen and read interviews with an author, check them out on the internet, its all good for me at least. You are out here insulting people.

    I am mid way through reading your post as I start my response. I'm gonna be editing it a ton before I final post so I don't make a mistake you will need to call me out on, I already found one for you in my previous post. So far I am seeing you insult my intelligence multiple times, and act like I haven't stated over and over what Putin has done is disgusting. I support the Ukrainian troops and even sanctions despite that I think they are cruel to the Russian people. Proving my previous post about needing a disclaimer every time someone wants to give context to the situation that implies America did clearly bad things without being accused of being eternally devoted to Mother Russia or something.

    I am now the second person on this thread to call you out on being hostile. Again If this is personal to you don't have to share, but I kinda did. Again I am antiwar in general, from a longline socialist/left leaning family. They made it to the US with a lot of effort and sacrifice and had to conceal that part in order for a family member to escape the USSR, thankfully to an overall prosperous life in the US. I do not need to reveal my educational background to a complete stranger, just like you aren't. I will say that I burned out of academia much to everyone's disappointment/joy for probably all the things that irritate you about me, mostly that I am lazy/a diva. I have my professional name similar everywhere (my mistake when I signed up, is what is it now) and will not be doxxed for an internet debate or rather doxx others, who live much more private lives. Unlike me who spreads my legs live over the internet and have political opinions that are not everyone's cup of tea. You aren't reveling anything that would put you in that position. I'm gonna go ahead and give you some links and own up to my mistake with one, but other then that I will not engage with your little snipes when all you prove that you have no idea about theory and are very defensive about this one issue. But it also seems by the jabs you have had an issue with me for awhile, sorry about that.
    I always meant that they became the Taliban. You are right not all, but it is clearly accepted that those weapons made there way to those who did. https://www.vox.com/world/22634008/u...bush-bin-laden Lots of context and there is no simple linear answer, not even in a book!

    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    Would you like a recommended reading list?
    No but I can recommend https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ight-and-right and will be rereading The Shock Doctorine by Naomi Klein which I haven't read in like 10 years but am looking forward to on my plane ride home.


    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    Yes, really. The Ukrainian military (which is more than 10 years old) is the armed forces of a sovereign state with worldwide recognition, nor was the Ukrainian military simply built from scratch, as its origins are in the Soviet armed forces. Your logic seems to be falling a bit short here.

    Would we want the Ukraine of 2013/14 in NATO? Here's a twitter thread(sure you will love that) with the warnings of the situation we are in from people mostly more more mainstream then me. https://twitter.com/rnaudbertrand/st...902062592?s=27


    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    No such promise or agreement was ever made. The Russians have argued that comments made by various Western leaders were to that effect, but there is nothing binding at all.
    Here is a very generous to America account for you with all the historical promises and even desire from the west to not expand NATO. This account blames it on Yeltsin which is I'm sure a whole other disagreement we could have. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early I obviously put the wrong date earlier, my apologies. I had a whole section that I took out about Germany that I realized wouldn't serve anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    NATO isn’t invading Russia. Putin knows this. Russia, the US, UK, France… if you’re going to try to invade them, you’re going to absorb a nuclear strike - several, actually. They are infinitely more afraid of an Orange Revolution (or whatever color they would choose). They’re infinitely more afraid of that than they are of NATO. Russia can’t match any growth and prosperity which Ukraine would see joining the Eurozone - their oligarchs are far too busy plundering the country (we have a not too dissimilar problem here), so what’s their recourse? Russians don’t feel any particularly affinity with Estonians, Latvians, Czechs, Poles, etc. But Ukrainians? Much different story.
    I mosly agree with you on this, but it isn't worth the back and forth on the minor differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    As for showing it? Maybe you should ask the others who I’ve taken into my home. The one who was thrown out and disowned by her family after they found out she had an abortion (she’s in the Navy now), the one who ran away from an abusive husband at 19, the one who was discarded by her family after she came out as a lesbian, the Amish runaway who had no other lifeline, the girl who was in the foster and group care system until she was 18, then was more or less told she was on her own. And while we all contribute to food and upkeep, perhaps my refusal to charge them rent because I have to means to pay my mortgage without taking it out on them, allowing them to retain their money for their own needs. While it wasn’t mere politics which led to it and I’m not subscribing to any Socialist channels on YouTube (which I don’t use YT much anyhow), I think I can at least use that to demonstrate where my philosophies and values lie, as well as my willingness to actually put it into action. I know it’s not changing the world, and I don’t even know if I’m doing it right, but I’m doing what I can here.
    This is awesome, always admired you with your personal stories, but has nothing to do with Politics and being to the left of me. What you are describing is closer being a Liberal, and understanding community, that is great. I was a liberal for some of college, Obama disappointment did me in
    Last edited by kamiliam; 03-08-2022 at 06:56 PM.
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  2. #227
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by trustfundkiller View Post
    I wonder how high gas prices are going to get. I'm guessing it won't be long before the cost of food and other goods start increasing too.
    Right. I’m not saying we shouldn’t stop buying oil, but damn I’m not looking forward to paying more than I already am.

    I just feel like Putin won’t stop at Ukraine. I hope the sanctions work, but I’m doubtful. I’d love for the Russian people to rise up against the oligarchs. Hell I wish Americans would rise up against the corporate sponsored politicians too. I’m kinda hoping this is the start of an uprising of people against the powers that be.

    Pandemic, insurrection, world war 3.

    What a time to be alive! I guess we can look back historically and see we’ve gone through similar things and survived. I’ll just hold on to that for right now, so I don’t lose hope.
    Focus more on what you want than on what you don’t want

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  4. #228
    Featured Member trustfundkiller's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by moneybags View Post
    Right. I’m not saying we shouldn’t stop buying oil, but damn I’m not looking forward to paying more than I already am.

    I just feel like Putin won’t stop at Ukraine. I hope the sanctions work, but I’m doubtful. I’d love for the Russian people to rise up against the oligarchs. Hell I wish Americans would rise up against the corporate sponsored politicians too. I’m kinda hoping this is the start of an uprising of people against the powers that be.

    Pandemic, insurrection, world war 3.

    What a time to be alive! I guess we can look back historically and see we’ve gone through similar things and survived. I’ll just hold on to that for right now, so I don’t lose hope.
    Oh yeah, everything is going to be ok eventually. I don't think this situation is the end of the world for the US, but it's going to suck. 2022 is going to be a rough year.

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  6. #229
    God/dess Cutie101's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Wow, I skip this thread for a few days and I see a few that are not getting it. Except AuroraJade. She made a fair point. Also, a couple of other people who got it right.

    As someone who's on direct border with Ukraine and I know a bit of what politics is around and I will explain in simple words:
    - Until 2019, Ukraine had only pro- russian presidents, that did anything to NOT have Ukraine joining NATO and European Union, because they were hand in hand with mother Russia. That's how Crimea got anexed so easily. People got tired of this bs and elected Zelenski. A fresh restart. Only that mother Rusia didn't like his western views and decided to invade him, before he makes any move.
    - Because of that, Ukraine couldn't join NATO, since parts of it (Crimea) was in conflict. For a country to join NATO, it has to be free and not in conflict/ under ocupation of another region.
    - Ukraine couldn't join EU because of same reasons, the ex goverment and everyone running the country that was pro russian, did everything to not meet the requirements to enter EU.


    - NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance. DEFENSIVE! Which means, not only that they can't take action for a country that's not even in the alliance, but the whole point of the alliance is to take defense, if any of the country within is being attacked. So stop saying NATO should do this and that, they CAN'T. They can only aid Ukraine with weapons and money, but they can't take action for that.

    - Stop making this political and what president X and Y did more than 2 years ago. All the countries had different presidents, that had different views and did organize things differently, only Russia had same president for the past 20 years. Blaming ex presidents is useless. It's important to see how the current goverments are running things right now, during an actual war.
    I am not a fan of Biden, but he is much more prefered than that Trump guy, because tht guy is overzelaous and god knows what would have happened now. The Biden guy, at least tries to NOT escalate things and his team waits patiently.

    It's easy to comment from across the ocean and be a keyboard warrior and say US should just go in there and shoot everything, when you don't have chances to be erased if the mad man decides to press the red button. But I am HERE at the border and I don't want NATO to get involved because I fear my own life. This is not a videogame to react with guns and bombs, it's real life and seeing people fleeing and coming in here, not knowing where to go and what to do, is making my body ache. I only see what volunteers do here, helping people with food and clothes, volunteers sleeping in cars, coming from work to help. Imagine if the area gets bombed or gets military action...
    Yes, tiptoeing around the whole situation, it's the best option right now, because this man has no consciousness. He didn't even respect his own promise to not bomb the civil evacuation ways and hospitals. He bombed exactly those. He's toxic and manipulative and anything you breath is used against you. Anything been said when the war threat started, in January (ok it's been since September, but made it to mass media recently), has only helped him turn every word against everyone and declare himself offended. HE simply used those poor reasons, to start a war. Remember they are propaganda and massive liars, they said they are doing a military exercise in the begining, remember?

    This is REAL LIFE and not politics and not a debate of what X and Y president did or shoud do. They do it perfectly now, being cautious. We, the countries around Ukraine are doing our best to help the refugees, the whole Europe and even US does a great job, helping Ukraine with weapons and money. It's the most legal thing you can do, to not trigger the mad man even more. It's a sensitive and complicate situation, especially when you're near the bomb and biggest nuclear plant in the Eastern Europe.
    My family has been affected by the radiations, a relative's of mine first child was an abomination (my family won't speak much about this traumatic event). Some of you have no idea what true FEAR is. The tyroid cancer/ issues is a big thing around here, people are still affected by the radiations because many were just children when Chernobyl disaster happened and now they are in their 40's. Many have been exposed back then and many still suffer because of the effects.
    * Me, everytime a member has 100 requests in freechat, like he's at a 5 Stars All Inclusive Holiday Resort *

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    ^^^we should really let the people suffering have to most weight in these decisions.

    I’m so sorry. It’s not about politics it’s about helping the suffering-in a perfect world that would be all any of us would care about.
    Focus more on what you want than on what you don’t want

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  10. #231
    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Cutie, I think we all understand why you're afraid. But are you really safer if Putin is allowed to slaughter Ukrainians and grind its cities down with only modest opposition from other countries? Do you really think he will be satisfied and just stop there forever? The leaders of Poland and Lithuania don't seem to think so, which is why they continue to push NATO to do more faster.

    Also the Ukraine has a right to feel a bit betrayed right now. First we (the U.S.) convinced them to hand over their nuclear arsenal to Russia under a tri-party treaty that was supposed to prevent attacks like this. While this was 100% the right move and the treaty doesn't explicitly say that we will defend them, it does not seem that the U.S. has not been living up to the spirit of the agreement. The Ukraine has also been a friend to NATO over the years, not only as an active partner in a joint commission with NATO since 1997, but in more recent years participating in a number of joint operations with NATO.

    We watched Putin slaughter countless Chechens and did nothing because it was arguably Russia sovereign territory. We watched Putin slaughter countless Georgians and still did nothing because it was far away and involved a country we did not have a relationship with.

    Now we are watching Putin slaughtering the people of a country that is a good friend to NATO and arguably the U.S. and still we sit by. Sure we have done a bit more than nothing, but we refuse to do enough to even give them a fighting chance.

    So now that Putin knows how little U.S. and NATO friendship means once he starts rattling his sword, who's next?

  11. #232
    Senior Member FrankieSkyPrivate's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Likethis View Post
    I agree that it's tricky to involve NATO in this since they're a defensive alliance and Ukraine is literally not a member. The fact that Putin mentions NATO is not exactly reason enough to go in with military force. And if a military alliance is just going to get involved every time they get mentioned by Putin or another man with power and be some kind of world police then what's the point in being a member versus non-member? If you know they're going to get involved anyway there's really no reason to join. This is not twitter where you respond just because people mention you, like you get pinged so you start a war, out of the 30 or so member states I think a very low number is happy to start anything with nuclear Russia not only because of the potential negative effects but because of the fact that they're not actually bound by the agreement to do so.

    About the risk of Putin invading other countries, like the ones he has threatened, I think in most cases the risk is very small. Him invading a NATO country seems very unlikely, I mean you never know but it does seem unlikely especially considering the scale of the military operation he intended this invasion to be. And yes Putin is threatening non members like Finland and Sweden, as he has done before. Russia has violated their airspace, as they have done before, Russia actually did the same thing to the Estonian airspace just before Estonia joined NATO. Putin is threatening countries now because that's what he usually does, always has, probably always will. So far it hasn't led to him invading all those countries he threatened. The fact that he now has invaded Ukraine could maybe even make it less likely for him to invade another country at the moment, because how keen is he right now to wage some kind of two front war or whatever, now that Ukraine is not going as well as he hoped and the economy is in shambles? Not very keen, is my guess.

    Even if you think about Russia and NATO it's not so black and white, look at Norway for example. They have managed to be in NATO and cooperate to some extent with Russia simultaneously for years. It's not like you're in NATO now Russia hates you regardless of who you are, it's more about Ukraine in particular than NATO or the US or some random neutral countries wanting to join the club. Ukraine is a geo politically, economically and culturally important country for Russia to an extent that most other countries are not. Putin is making threats now left and right because that's how he does politics, I don't think he actually gives a fuck about most of those other countries when it comes down to it. And on top of that the threats have had a kind of counterproductive effect so far, considering that for example, Finland is taking NATO membership up for serious debate.
    I agree that this issue between Ukraine and Russia goes way beyond the topic of just joining NATO. For Putin, Ukraine and Russia share a common blood, a common history, like brothers share a mother. And Putin feels Ukraine is betraying all of that, and the NATO discussion was the cathalist that turned the fire on and made Putin explote

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  13. #233
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamiliam View Post
    this is very petty. The back and forth where you misinterpret and carry on with what I was possibly unclear on, that turns into really a differing of beliefs; all the poking is gross.
    What was misinterpreted? Because you didn’t point anything out or attempt to clarify, unless you’re counting that one time you changed what you had said in an earlier post. Call it poking if you wish, but you did do that.

    I am really hoping this is personal to you in some way.
    It is.

    I could be real petty back if I wanted
    You already have.

    you seem just super dismissive of any new media, like fine, but I have read a ton and a lot of books are shit, especially political ones no matter their accreditation. So much thinktank nonsense, you have to and want to publish to succeed in academia. I like to watch, listen and read interviews with an author, check them out on the internet, its all good for me at least. You are out here insulting people.
    I understand why you get that impression, but that’s not really it. It’s more the time and place, even if you suggested print publications. In the course of a discussion such as this one, we’re not going to wait a month between posts. Reading on your own without the intent of discussing it, there is no time crunch. So, you can take the time to follow up (or forward, because I am interested in getting a feel for the validity of a book before I commit to it). Back and forth on a forum, we’re not intending to wait weeks or even months between responses while we go through this, hence people in discussions, disputes, debates on social media, forums, what have you will post a five minute read and expect to continue it off of that. For example, your link about Afghanistan, the mujahadeen, and the Taliban… they want to come to a fast and convenient conclusion, so they narrow the scope down to achieve that. So they don’t into the history of things leading up to it, and so people come to a very narrow and lacking conclusion and are encouraged to do this. To set up a publishing house takes a lot of work. Anyone can start a blog, YouTube channel, etc. And a lot of things which shouldn’t have gained traction have because of this. Maybe the Internet not being an everyday thing for me growing up plays into this as well, but I am particularly wary of Internet- and television-based media. That being said, there are time I’ll use it when appropriate, e.g., the Javelin is a weapon system I’ve never had any dealings with, and it’s been pretty prominent lately, so I read about it on Wikipedia. Obviously I wouldn’t refer to Wikipedia or Reddit for advice on life altering decisions.

    I am mid way through reading your post as I start my response. I'm gonna be editing it a ton before I final post so I don't make a mistake you will need to call me out on
    Do keep in mind that the time stamp of your edit is visible, and we’re not talking about misspelled words, we’re talking about completely changing the context of what you said.

    So far I am seeing you insult my intelligence multiple times, and act like I haven't stated over and over what Putin has done is disgusting.
    No, I haven’t insulted or questioned your intelligence, just your notion that you think (maybe because I work a not glamorous blue collar job?) that I’m uneducated, or how you thought you were “educating” me about the Taliban after I had already given some indication that I knew of their origins. I’ve studied Afghanistan extensively from the Muslim conquests of the 8th - 10th Centuries to the present day. So, how am I supposed to feel when you ignore this and then post a five minute read like that’ll somehow negate the work I’ve put into studying that subject? Oh, and there’s more to say on this, because I read your entire post before replying, and you did it again.

    I support the Ukrainian troops and even sanctions despite that I think they are cruel to the Russian people. Proving my previous post about needing a disclaimer every time someone wants to give context to the situation that implies America did clearly bad things without being accused of being eternally devoted to Mother Russia or something.
    You kinda watered that down. Literally, in a topic about a Russian invasion of Ukraine, you went off the rails about “USA bad”. Went in a completely different direction from the topic. Even referred to the Ukrainian military as “the eventual Taliban”.

    I am now the second person on this thread to call you out on being hostile.
    Cry me a river?

    all you prove that you have no idea about theory and are very defensive about this one issue.
    First, I was never questioned about theory, so where you’re getting this shit from? Whine about, “You’re insulting my intelligence” then turn around with some shit like this?

    Second, I’m not being defensive. You’re the one who got defensive over a post which wasn’t about you or directed at you. Which, fine, I can understand where I didn’t make that clear. But then continued to after I told you it wasn’t about you. I’m just trying to figure out what your deal is.

    you have had an issue with me for awhile
    No, none at all. Even now, you did do one thing which kissed me off, but it’s not before this point - it’s after.

    Forgive me if I skip ahead a bit, but I have to balance this out with being at work, so I have to kinda stitch it all together piece by piece.

    [quoteWould we want the Ukraine of 2013/14 in NATO?[/quote]

    I don’t think NATO wants Ukraine at all. Not in 94, 04, 14, or today. Politicians might, but military officials, not so much. Why would NATO want a country full of people who were content to be seen as practically Russians and feel such a bond with a country who never stopped seeing NATO as an adversary? Too much of a wild card. Were it not for less than fond histories involving the Soviet Union or even Imperial Russia and other Slavic nations, I’d expect Putin would push Pan-Slavism? Slavicism?… the same way Gaddaffi pushed for Pan-Arabism.

    What you are describing is closer being a Liberal, and understanding community, that is great. I was a liberal for some of college, Obama disappointment did me in
    If you think I was hostile before, my initial reaction to reading this… I had to step back and reevaluate this a couple times and give you the benefit of the doubt here.

    To reiterate what I’ve said before, politics wasn’t the sole driving force behind those decisions.
    If anything, the way this household actually operates would be a better indicator as far as that goes. Just an example of standing behind them. Now, can I live 100% by where I stand ideologically? No. This is the world I live in, and I have to adapt just like everyone else, else my only option would be to live like the Unabomber, and I do feel like that’s a bit too far. I live in the country I live in, I’m a part of the society I’m a part of, and that’s just how it is. Of course it could be worse, but it could also be better. So sometimes I end up doing things which don’t fully parallel my ideologies or even at times contradict them. Such is life.

    I have seriously minced my words through all of that, but this needs to be said - I know what my ideologies and philosophies are. I know where I stand, I know where I am on the spectrum, and how I got there was a combination both of learning and of life, which includes war, seeing how the system treated others around me and how indifferent it was to their plight, dealings with people in this society, ranging from both the “just add water” ‘activist’ sorts to the pseudo-patriot hee-haws, and almost certainly swayed as well by the stories of those I’ve taken into my home, how my friend from the community was left with nothing after her husband had to be put in hospice and was still in debt, etc. And of the latter, it was actually people I’m inclined to see as ideological opponents who did much more for her than “my own people”. Which leaves me feeling conflicted, but not any less appreciative of what they did.

    Forgive me for skipping over some parts, but I have a major CAN BUS failure on an almost $2 million machine to contend with which two FT3s have already been stumped by, and they need it back in service post haste.

    Anyhow, why it’s personal to me isn’t anything secret. I have friends - people I’ve interacted with face-to-face and have spent time with - from both countries and I know three people over there right now who traveled to serve as foreign volunteers.
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  14. #234
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    My thoughts:
    1. The US, must stay out of the shooting war, fighting Russia all too easily leads to nuclear war. From which, we will prevail, but at an unacceptably high cost.
    2. The Russians waited too long to invade. Spring is coming as is the Ukrainian mud. This war will grind on for a long time.
    3. The Russians have a massive supply chain problem.
    4. The Russians apparently don't read Alfred Thayer Mahan and his doctrine of economy of force, or they ignored Mahan. Can you imagine Chester Nimitz sending his forces all over the Pacific looking for Japanese forces to attack? No. He sat patiently with exactly the force he needed just northeast of Midway. When the Japanese came, he attacked and destroyed their carriers and their naval aviation. Japan never recovered.
    5. The Russians apparently don't know their own civil engineering history. Because WWII was massively devastating to Russian and Ukrainian cities leaving millions of Russians and Ukranians homeless, the Soviet Union chose to build housing in cities. They also chose to build road and rail networks in through their cities. Thus, each Russian and Ukranian city is a road and rail hub. Moving anywhere else is difficult and invariably leads to a city where roads tangle up the efficient movement of supplies. Thus, each city is both a supply bottleneck and a well defended hard point that it is very difficult to move beyond.
    6. The Russians are apparently oblivious to their own history. Ukraine caused the Germans no end of distress in WWII and the Soviets fought a magnificent war in depth there for the first two years of that war. The Soviets only managed to defeat the Germans in Ukraine later in the war because they had overwhelming forces and the Germans stupdly would not retreat. Zelinsky may not think he has the option of strategic withdrawl, but if he uses Ukraine's size to his advantage, and the lousy road network, he can drag this war out for a long time increasing the pressure on Russia to negotiate with him on reasonable terms.
    7. Ukraine waited too long to arm every man, woman and child to establish a really effective resistance. But, they are making up for lost time and NATO/ the US are sending anti-tank weapons that really will make the cost of holding Ukraine very high. (We did that in Afghanistan to the Soviets, so we're not new to this sort of warfare.)
    8. Ukraine, by evacuating so many of its women and children to the west is playing the long game very effectively.
    9. The west (NATO, the EU and USA) have very quickly wised up and united to face this Russian threat. Vladimir Putin did what a long list of U.S. presidents could not do, he convinced the Germans to stop disarming themselves.
    10. Ukraine is winning the social media war. It helps that their President is a skilled communicator. Plus, who doesn't like Paddington the Bear? (Zelinsky voiced Paddington in Ukrainian.)

    My thoughts,
    Z

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Russia wasn't our main adversary in 2012 and the price of gas isn't anywhere near $7 a gallon. The avg. price is $4.17. The only way gas would be any cheaper than it is now, is if our government chose not to do anything about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I'd rather pay more for gas.
    Oh yes they were and Oh yes it is.

    Putin served notice as far back as 2007 at the Munich Security conference that he was anti-Western. He repeatedly said that the dissolution of the old ?Soviet Union was a "tragedy". Since then he has embarked on an adventurous program and policy of Russian expansion.

    Gas is currently selling in California and other Pacific states at or near $7 a gallon. In N.Y. it is well over $4 a gallon and projected to go to at least $ 6 a gallon. Thanks Joe. Let's Go Brandon lol to keep from crying.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by trustfundkiller View Post
    I wonder how high gas prices are going to get. I'm guessing it won't be long before the cost of food and other goods start increasing too.
    Food prices are already going UP. Wheat prices alone are up 70% since the Russians invaded. The costs of transport plus feed and fertilizer have all been going up. Thanks Vlad. Thanks Joe.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 03-09-2022 at 08:41 AM.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    In a new twist, Poland just announced that it will be providing its MIGs to the U.S. to distribute as it sees fit. A snippet below from the WSJ article:

    "The Polish government on Tuesday said the planes “are ready to deploy—immediately and free of charge.” The aircraft would be flown to the American Ramstein air base in Germany, where they would be at the disposal of the U.S., Poland’s foreign ministry said in a statement."

    The U.S. had been claiming all along that it was a Polish decision and then, when that ridiculous claim rang false, started a stalling song and dance about having to figure out the logistical challenges of replacing those planes for Poland. It seems that Poland was tired of being blamed so instead found a way to pass the buck back to the U.S.

    But even more from a Polish diplomat involved in this transfer:

    “We wanted the certainty that in six months or two years everyone will be comfortable that this was a NATO idea, a Western idea...”

    “...We can act on behalf of NATO, but we need support in doing so. And not every Western country feels safe or comfortable with that. What we would really like to avoid is providing jets to Ukraine and then being left alone because it was ‘our call.’”

    Reading between the lines, it sounds like Poland wanted to provide these jets all along, but was afraid that its NATO Allies would use this as an excuse down the road to ditch their treaty obligations if Russia attacked. Given everything I've seen from NATO's Western leaders so far I don't blame Poland for being concerned.

    Let's see what excuse this Administration comes up with now if they choose to withhold these fighters.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/poland-...vecoverage_web
    I heard that our wonderful woke Pentagon put the kibosh on the transfer of MIG's to Ukraine.

    In fairness , there are sound reasons to believe that this would be step too far. Arguably they constitute "offensive" weapons.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 03-09-2022 at 10:20 AM.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Cutie, I think we all understand why you're afraid. But are you really safer if Putin is allowed to slaughter Ukrainians and grind its cities down with only modest opposition from other countries? Do you really think he will be satisfied and just stop there forever? The leaders of Poland and Lithuania don't seem to think so, which is why they continue to push NATO to do more faster.

    Also the Ukraine has a right to feel a bit betrayed right now. First we (the U.S.) convinced them to hand over their nuclear arsenal to Russia under a tri-party treaty that was supposed to prevent attacks like this. While this was 100% the right move and the treaty doesn't explicitly say that we will defend them, it does not seem that the U.S. has not been living up to the spirit of the agreement. The Ukraine has also been a friend to NATO over the years, not only as an active partner in a joint commission with NATO since 1997, but in more recent years participating in a number of joint operations with NATO.

    We watched Putin slaughter countless Chechens and did nothing because it was arguably Russia sovereign territory. We watched Putin slaughter countless Georgians and still did nothing because it was far away and involved a country we did not have a relationship with.

    Now we are watching Putin slaughtering the people of a country that is a good friend to NATO and arguably the U.S. and still we sit by. Sure we have done a bit more than nothing, but we refuse to do enough to even give them a fighting chance.

    So now that Putin knows how little U.S. and NATO friendship means once he starts rattling his sword, who's next?
    Ukraine has every right to feel betrayed. They were. By Bush The Dim , OBAMA , to a lesser extent You Know Who and now Biden.

    Not only did we make them give up their nukes in exchange for certain , mostly implied , guarantees but all four of our recent Presidents limited sales of conventional weapons to Ukraine to try and curry favor with Russia.
    Especially Obama and even AFTER Russia seized The Crimea.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Food prices are already going UP. Wheat prices alone are up 70% since the Russians invaded. The costs of transport plus feed and fertilizer have all been going up. Thanks Vlad. Thanks Joe.
    This is just the beginning. Food prices will continue to go up.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by trustfundkiller View Post
    This is just the beginning. Food prices will continue to go up.
    Yep. Thanks Joe. Thanks Vlad. Let's go Brandon. Let's go Putin.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I heard that our wonderful woke Pentagon put the kibosh on the transfer of MIG's to Ukraine.

    In fairness , there are sound reasons to believe that this would be step too far. Arguably they constitute "offensive" weapons.
    Yup, and quickly too. Once again proving that we might care about women and children being slaughtered, but not really that much.

    What makes it even worse though is all the lies this Administration told before finally being forced to admit that it did not want to send the planes.

    First there was Blinken, who claimed that Poland had the "green light" and that it was completely Poland's decision.

    Then, figuring that nobody truly believed that lie, they then went into a song and dance about how they had to evaluate strategic options to replace those planes for Poland.

    Finally, only after Poland refused to support the lies and backed them into a corner did they finally admit the truth - sort of. Even then they had to lie a bit more by falsely attributing it to the Pentagon when we all know that the military does not make foreign policy decisions - the President does.

    I can only imagine what our allies must think about us when they see us behave like this, especially after what recently happened in Afghanistan.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Yup, and quickly too. Once again proving that we might care about women and children being slaughtered, but not really that much.

    What makes it even worse though is all the lies this Administration told before finally being forced to admit that it did not want to send the planes.

    First there was Blinken, who claimed that Poland had the "green light" and that it was completely Poland's decision.

    Then, figuring that nobody truly believed that lie, they then went into a song and dance about how they had to evaluate strategic options to replace those planes for Poland.

    Finally, only after Poland refused to support the lies and backed them into a corner did they finally admit the truth - sort of. Even then they had to lie a bit more by falsely attributing it to the Pentagon when we all know that the military does not make foreign policy decisions - the President does.

    I can only imagine what our allies must think about us when they see us behave like this, especially after what recently happened in Afghanistan.
    Hmmm. I get you but I am wondering if it is "lying" or just disorganization and incoherence. Granted, Brandon's bunch have set new standards for mendacity. Pick an issue and you'll get at least two, if not more, varied and often contradictory positions. And in fairness it is a difficult and delicate situation that would be tough for anyone to navigate.

    Some will not like this but I think it is best if Putin does NOT "lose". Huh ? What ? How can I say that ? Zelensky said yesterday that Ukraine does not want to join NATO. Russia has said that they are willing to keep their Russian majority regions ( where Russians and Ukrainians have been shooting at each other since 2014 btw ) and be satisfied. This would enable Putin to "declare victory and get out. " The sticking point is to get them to withdraw from everywhere else. For now , I don't want to see Putin backed into a corner he can't get out of without dramatic escalation.

    More importantly I am leery of U.S. and NATO incremental steps toward a full blown shooting war with Russia. Some nitwits are seriously trying to portray the Russian military as a paper tiger and saying we could win a nuclear war with Russia. ARE THEY SERIOUS ? What is wrong with them ?

    I don't care what the polls say. Most people do not understand what a "No Fly Zone" means or what would be involved. It is an Act of War. Period !

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Hmmm. I get you but I am wondering if it is "lying" or just disorganization and incoherence. Granted, Brandon's bunch have set new standards for mendacity. Pick an issue and you'll get at least two, if not more, varied and often contradictory positions. And in fairness it is a difficult and delicate situation that would be tough for anyone to navigate.

    Some will not like this but I think it is best if Putin does NOT "lose". Huh ? What ? How can I say that ? Zelensky said yesterday that Ukraine does not want to join NATO. Russia has said that they are willing to keep their Russian majority regions ( where Russians and Ukrainians have been shooting at each other since 2014 btw ) and be satisfied. This would enable Putin to "declare victory and get out. " The sticking point is to get them to withdraw from everywhere else. For now , I don't want to see Putin backed into a corner he can't get out of without dramatic escalation.

    More importantly I am leery of U.S. and NATO incremental steps toward a full blown shooting war with Russia. Some nitwits are seriously trying to portray the Russian military as a paper tiger and saying we could win a nuclear war with Russia. ARE THEY SERIOUS ? What is wrong with them ?

    I don't care what the polls say. Most people do not understand what a "No Fly Zone" means or what would be involved. It is an Act of War. Period !
    I'm going to run with "lying." Frankly IMHO it's pretty obvious that they don't want to send the planes but also didn't want to be blamed for the decision.

    I hear you on the rest, but I don't buy for a second that he's crazy enough to start a nuclear war over this. Everything he has done to this point, if you look at it dispassionately and as I've previously outlined, has been finely choreographed. The only thing I don't think he anticipated was the relative unpreparedness of his own military and the amount of resistance they would encounter. If he had finished this quickly the West wouldn't have been shamed, by two weeks of streaming images and pleas, into sending more weapons and doubling down on sanctions. But even still Putin had our measure as to where our stopping point would be.

    Why in the world would Putin want to stop now? With the Ukraine's inability to contest the skies and conduct aerial strikes on Russia's convoys, Putin has the luxury of time to eventually circle every major city and pound each one into rubble. IMHO unless we do more to balance things out, like give the Ukraine those damned planes, he's not going to stop until he has destroyed enough of the country to be able to demand that a puppet government be installed. At that point the sanctions will be lifted as part of the negotiation and he'll have everything he really wanted.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Maybe , just maybe it is dawning on Putin what a takeover of Ukraine would ultimately cost. Years of hostile occupation coupled with years of sanctions.
    It seems clear that Putin underestimated the Ukrainians and overestimated his own military.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Let's go Brandon.
    Everyone else I've seen posting this on Facebook are basically illiterate. You're smarter than this, I think.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    ...I don't buy for a second that he's crazy enough to start a nuclear war over this. Everything he has done to this point, if you look at it dispassionately and as I've previously outlined, has been finely choreographed...Putin has the luxury of time to eventually circle every major city and pound each one into rubble.
    'Finely choreographed'? A week long, 40 mile traffic jam stuck a few kilometers outside Kiev? Kiev is a few hours drive from the Belarus border; if the Russian military was any good, they'd have taken it in the first few days.

    And yes, he IS crazy enough to start a nuclear war, he's already been making threats about it. If he's about to lose power, he'll do it.

    The guy has lost his shit. He should never have invaded at all. Now he's stuck with a war he cannot win, with an army that doesn't want to fight, an occupied population in the millions that will not give up, and a home population that is already willing to risk getting the shit kicked out them for protesting. When more Russian boys die--and they will--that's just going to get worse. Sure he might take Kiev in another week or two, but how the fuck is he going to HOLD it?
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Yep. Thanks Joe. Thanks Vlad. Let's go Brandon. Let's go Putin.
    You left someone out. Far more responsible for this fucking mess than Joe. And I am not a Joe fan.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    You left someone out. Far more responsible for this fucking mess than Joe. And I am not a Joe fan.
    Obama ? Merkel ? Please don't try to blame this mess on "You Know Who". Sorry. Won't wash except that he DID restrict arms sales to Ukraine. Like his 3 immediate predecessors.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    'Finely choreographed'? A week long, 40 mile traffic jam stuck a few kilometers outside Kiev? Kiev is a few hours drive from the Belarus border; if the Russian military was any good, they'd have taken it in the first few days.

    And yes, he IS crazy enough to start a nuclear war, he's already been making threats about it. If he's about to lose power, he'll do it.

    The guy has lost his shit. He should never have invaded at all. Now he's stuck with a war he cannot win, with an army that doesn't want to fight, an occupied population in the millions that will not give up, and a home population that is already willing to risk getting the shit kicked out them for protesting. When more Russian boys die--and they will--that's just going to get worse. Sure he might take Kiev in another week or two, but how the fuck is he going to HOLD it?
    DJ, I'm not talking about the military operation itself. We agree that he was mistaken about how easy it would be. I'm talking about everything leading up to it. To recap:

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    I hear that, but I don't see this as crazy or erratic. Indeed I see this as cold and calculated timing. Russia has always wanted Ukraine back in the fold. Indeed it thinks about Ukraine almost the same way that China thinks about Taiwan.

    IMO annexing Crimea in 2014 was a test run. He got away with it, but it was pretty clear at that time that the U.S. and Europe were going to consider more extreme responses (including truly severe sanctions) if he went further. So he stopped.

    Since then he has continued to rebuild and modernize Russia's military while also fostering increased European dependence on Russian natural gas. Now, with it's military ready and Europe docile because it is now afraid to lose it's access to Russian fuel, all he needed was to be sure that the U.S. would not react too drastically.

    Trump probably wouldn't have cared about Europe's mixed feelings if Putin tried this on his watch. He might have also sent even more serious military hardware to Ukraine on top of the javelin missiles he did send. Responses like a true fossil fuel embargo and being kicked off the SWFT banking system (which the Trump Administration did to Iran) would have been truly devastating to Russia. So Putin waited.

    Now we have an Administration that prefers a multi-lateral and multi-national response to aggression. I'm not opining as to whether this is good or bad, but it means that other variables come into play. Europe does not support truly severe sanctions because of the pain it would also experience as a result and the current U.S. Administration is not inclined to bulldoze this stuff through unilaterally.

    Putin has been testing the waters for weeks by building up troops on the border and engaging in meetings with various world leaders. You can be sure that he was using those moments to assess the likely extent of the potential responses to an aggressive move. Once he became certain that the combined US/EU response would be manageable, that's all she wrote.
    And then to add, just as it looked NATO might consider more serious help to the Ukraine once civilian casualties started, he whispers "nuclear" and we become frozen, even as the civilian casualties (including a children's hospital today) continue to pile up.

    So yes, IMHO every move has been carefully planned and times. I'm sure he has a plan for a future puppet government as well.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    'Finely choreographed'? A week long, 40 mile traffic jam stuck a few kilometers outside Kiev? Kiev is a few hours drive from the Belarus border; if the Russian military was any good, they'd have taken it in the first few days.

    And yes, he IS crazy enough to start a nuclear war, he's already been making threats about it. If he's about to lose power, he'll do it.

    The guy has lost his shit. He should never have invaded at all. Now he's stuck with a war he cannot win, with an army that doesn't want to fight, an occupied population in the millions that will not give up, and a home population that is already willing to risk getting the shit kicked out them for protesting. When more Russian boys die--and they will--that's just going to get worse. Sure he might take Kiev in another week or two, but how the fuck is he going to HOLD it?
    The Ukrainians have been VERY smart with that convoy. Rather than attack it directly they are going after supply trucks carrying food , fuel , ammo and even spare tires. That is the big reason it has been stuck in the Ukrainian mud.

    I don't know if Putin is crazy enough to use nukes and I do not want to find out.

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