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Thread: What's going on in Ukraine?

  1. #176
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AuroraJade View Post
    The USA has nothing to do with this conflict. The nature of this conflict is Russia being mad that Ukraine wants into NATO.
    You kinda contradicted yourself there. If it has to do with NATO, what is NATO and who does it involve?

    You also seriously miss the mark again in trying to oversimplify and direct the cause, which that match was struck in 2014 - even before then - especially seeing as Ukraine didn’t fully withdraw from participation in the Commonwealth of Independent States until 2018 in response to the war in Donbas.

    And even that’s shortsighted, as the unrest which existed in Ukraine since the demise of the Soviet Union and which came to a head in 2014 goes back to Stalin’s forced removal of the Crimean Tartars and the Russification of the regions they lived in.

    Who used that as a pretext to commit to clandestine military action in Crimea and Donbas in 2014? And who suddenly took a much more keen interest in joining NATO after they had literally been attacked by Russia in spite of the assurances of the treaty by which Ukraine former Soviet nuclear weapons to Russian control?

    Seriously, you sound like these, “She shouldn’t have worn those clothes if she didn’t want to get raped” sorts with the shit you just said.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    You kinda contradicted yourself there. If it has to do with NATO, what is NATO and who does it involve?

    You also seriously miss the mark again in trying to oversimplify and direct the cause, which that match was struck in 2014 - even before then - especially seeing as Ukraine didn’t fully withdraw from participation in the Commonwealth of Independent States until 2018 in response to the war in Donbas.

    And even that’s shortsighted, as the unrest which existed in Ukraine since the demise of the Soviet Union and which came to a head in 2014 goes back to Stalin’s forced removal of the Crimean Tartars and the Russification of the regions they lived in.

    Who used that as a pretext to commit to clandestine military action in Crimea and Donbas in 2014? And who suddenly took a much more keen interest in joining NATO after they had literally been attacked by Russia in spite of the assurances of the treaty by which Ukraine former Soviet nuclear weapons to Russian control?

    Seriously, you sound like these, “She shouldn’t have worn those clothes if she didn’t want to get raped” sorts with the shit you just said.
    I just dont wanna get bombed and die, lol. Or pay 300/month for electric bill

    That last sentence? Why are you so angry, lol? Its just politics. We cant change it and its all orchestrated anyway because somewhere somebody profits big from this. Its allllllll about money in the end and innocent people are the victim

    This is all a theater like the last 20 years are a big theater. I just dont wanna make the theater so big its gonna cost me my life or my ways to live comfortable or peoples lives

    Joe Biden just needs to STFU. Nato needs to STFU too , I dont even want Nato, and Putin needs to STFU too and all the other country leaders need to keep their fucking mouths shut because they are leading us straight into a nuclear winter and pretending they all speak for 'their people' while literally nobody asked for their opinion on anything because they are all just puppets. Lets see how quick this is finished when nobody gives these power tripping puppets any attention.

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  4. #178
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    When I said, "we can't go to far," I was only talking about military action, not economic sanctions. What difference does it make how old the Stingers are, as long as they work? The US upgrades weapons all the time. The Air Force is still flying upgraded B52s that are more than 50 years old.

    The US can't force Europe to embargo Russian oil and gas, even if we did it ourselves. European countries are looking for alternatives. Germany built ports for handling LNG from ships, so they can rely less on Russian pipelines. Even if Europe stopped buying oil from Russia, Russia could still potentially sell their oil to other countries, like China or India, instead. If Europe stops buying oil from Russia, then they'll have to get it from somewhere else, which means less oil will be available for other countries. From everything I've read, Russia's economy is in dire straits.

    ‘Rest in peace, dear comrade’ — on Russian TV, analyst toasts to the end of the country’s stock market

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/re...?mod=home-page
    Eagle, I've already outlined examples of the weapons we could have shared that would have made a real difference. Feel free to address it instead of talking around it.

    And you're utterly wrong about what we can do economically. It's just a matter of what we are willing to do. We could kick them off of SWFT completely, including the fossil fuel payments that we carved out of the sanction. This would by default force our allies onboard since no fossil fuel money flowing to Russia means no fuel deliveries.

    We could also blacklist any company from doing business in the U.S. that doesn't honor an embargo of Russian goods and services, which, if you looked back in history, you'd find essentially forces our allies and many other countries onboard as most of their multi-national companies do heavy business with the U.S. I can assure you that Shell PLC would not have bought another 100,000 metric tons of oil from a Russian oil tanker today if this was in place as the U.S. means a heck of a lot more to them than Russia.

    Now would another U.S. President take a harsher stand? I really don't know, but I would like to think so. But let's stop with the Kabuki Theater already that we truly care whether Russia is slaughtering women and children because, while we may to an extent, we don't care enough to do anything that could stop it.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Another information update: Putin is now blocking access to Facebook in Russia. Apparently he doesn't want his own people seeing what's actually happening in the Ukraine.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 03-04-2022 at 07:40 PM.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    I've been following former chess champion Garry Kasparov:

    https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/statu...39820363468802

    "As I said in 2014 and a fateful week ago, the price of stopping a dictator always goes up. What would have been enough to stop Putin 8 years or 6 months or 2 weeks ago is not enough today, and the price will rise again tomorrow. Fight. Find a way"

    Putin is a bully, no one ever stood up to him. After he stole Bob Kraft's Super Bowl ring, the current President Bush said to say it was a gift to not 'damage public relations' with him... The former KGB agent has poisoned opponents in Europe and gotten away with it. He continues.

    One other thought - Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is a trained actor - He will play the role, motivating his troops to the death.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by CFMNH44 View Post
    I've been following former chess champion Garry Kasparov:

    https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/statu...39820363468802

    "As I said in 2014 and a fateful week ago, the price of stopping a dictator always goes up. What would have been enough to stop Putin 8 years or 6 months or 2 weeks ago is not enough today, and the price will rise again tomorrow. Fight. Find a way"

    Putin is a bully, no one ever stood up to him. After he stole Bob Kraft's Super Bowl ring, the current President Bush said to say it was a gift to not 'damage public relations' with him... The former KGB agent has poisoned opponents in Europe and gotten away with it. He continues.

    One other thought - Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is a trained actor - He will play the role, motivating his troops to the death.
    Interesting, thank you.

    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukra...lensky-1684887
    Last edited by whirlerz; 03-05-2022 at 08:06 AM.


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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Eagle, I've already outlined examples of the weapons we could have shared that would have made a real difference. Feel free to address it instead of talking around it.
    No you didn't, other than saying we should sent Ukraine Stingers and F16s. We've already sent them Stingers, which your great sources didn't tell you. You don't understand that it would take months or years to integrate a weapon system as complex as the F16 into Ukraine's military. You also don't understand that Ukraine's MIG 29s are just as capable as F16s, and Ukraine has decades of experience operating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    And you're utterly wrong about what we can do economically. It's just a matter of what we are willing to do. We could kick them off of SWFT completely, including the fossil fuel payments that we carved out of the sanction. This would by default force our allies onboard since no fossil fuel money flowing to Russia means no fuel deliveries.
    Please explain how this will make any difference at all, on the war going on in Ukraine.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by CFMNH44 View Post
    I've been following former chess champion Garry Kasparov:

    https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/statu...39820363468802

    "As I said in 2014 and a fateful week ago, the price of stopping a dictator always goes up. What would have been enough to stop Putin 8 years or 6 months or 2 weeks ago is not enough today, and the price will rise again tomorrow. Fight. Find a way"

    Putin is a bully, no one ever stood up to him. After he stole Bob Kraft's Super Bowl ring, the current President Bush said to say it was a gift to not 'damage public relations' with him... The former KGB agent has poisoned opponents in Europe and gotten away with it. He continues.

    One other thought - Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is a trained actor - He will play the role, motivating his troops to the death.
    Well. I don’t want to go to war with Russia, but one thing I learned as a domestic violence victim is you can never appease an abuser-they will always up the ante. So I keep thinking, “he is going to invade a NATO country if we don’t stop him now.” Waiting for putin to stop is like hoping an abusive person will stop hitting you. If you don’t leave they’ll eventually kill you one day. It never gets better. Why do they think Putin will stop at Ukraine? We’re eventually going to go to war with Russia unless the sanctions stop him or he gets overthrown. That’s the only way this ends war, the sanctions cripple him so bad economically he can’t afford a war, or people stop listening to him and over throw him.
    Focus more on what you want than on what you don’t want

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    So sorry that you were a domestic violence victim.

    Putin is not going to invade a NATO country because NATO is much stronger militarily and economically than Russia. If Putin were to start a war with NATO, the end result would be getting his military destroyed. He invaded Ukraine because Ukraine is weaker than Russia.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No you didn't, other than saying we should sent Ukraine Stingers and F16s. We've already sent them Stingers, which your great sources didn't tell you. You don't understand that it would take months or years to integrate a weapon system as complex as the F16 into Ukraine's military. You also don't understand that Ukraine's MIG 29s are just as capable as F16s, and Ukraine has decades of experience operating them.

    Please explain how this will make any difference at all, on the war going on in Ukraine.
    You must have missed my post about fighter jets, cluster bombs, more advanced drones, etc., etc. Please scroll above so I don't have to repeat myself.

    And how would they make a difference? Control of the skies is crucial to control of the ground. For example, that 40 mile Russian convoy that has been just sitting there for days shouldn't be stalled - it should be 40 miles of metal parts and Russian bodies. It's just been sitting there for several days right out in the open and while the Ukrainians have sufficient arms to stall it and hit it in strategic places, it doesn't have the ability to wipe it out.

    You're also assuming I meant F-16s but I guess you've missed what's been happening on this topic too. 4 days ago Poland was ready to hand over 70 MIG 29s to the Ukraine, which Ukrainian pilots are already trained to fly. 2 days later NATO suddenly put the kibosh on the plan for fear that it would be going too far. You don't think that the U.S. played a role in that?

    Zelensky was on a call with 200 U.S. Congressmen this morning pleading for help. He first asked for a no fly zone but, if that was not possible, he asked for the U.S. to let him have the damned planes. He also asked Congress to support more significant fossil fuel embargoes against Russia - duh.

    Btw why do you think that Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are bending over backwards trying to help the Ukraine even while the cowardly leaders of the west keep dragging their feet? I'm guessing because they are justifiably afraid that if the Ukraine falls then they are next. That fear could only be reinforced by seeing Western EU leaders so afraid of losing their fuel and then, joined by the U.S. Administration, become even more frozen in place - while women and children are slaughtered - just because Putin uttered the word "nuclear."
    Last edited by rickdugan; 03-05-2022 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    And how would they make a difference? Control of the skies is crucial to control of the ground. For example, that 40 mile Russian convoy that has been just sitting there for days shouldn't be stalled - it should be 40 miles of metal parts and Russian bodies. It's just been sitting there for several days right out in the open and while the Ukrainians have sufficient arms to stall it and hit it in strategic places, it doesn't have the ability to wipe it out.
    I was specifically asking you how the sanctions you propose would make any difference in the war, not weapon sales. This is what I replied to:

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    And you're utterly wrong about what we can do economically. It's just a matter of what we are willing to do. We could kick them off of SWFT completely, including the fossil fuel payments that we carved out of the sanction. This would by default force our allies onboard since no fossil fuel money flowing to Russia means no fuel deliveries.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I was specifically asking you how the sanctions you propose would make any difference in the war, not weapon sales. This is what I replied to:
    What do you think would happen to any country if you severely restrict something that represents almost half of its income? And maybe even that is not enough at first, but it puts a hell of a lot more pressure on Putin to consider a ceasefire. President Zelensky seems to believe this as well, which is why just this morning he was pleading with 200 members of Congress to do exactly what I've been discussing - completely embargo Russian fossil fuels.

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  18. #188
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Likethis View Post
    I'm starting to think that someone in Russia, like the collective Russian people or an annoyed oligarch or a political rival for example, has to strip Putin of all his political power in order for this not to escalate. Putin is probably not going to accept defeat in Ukraine, no matter what the rest of the world does, because if there is anything more fragile than the Russian economy right now it is the male authoritarian ego of that man. The more desperate he gets to win this the less he is going to care about what he takes down in the process.

    At least everyone has realised by now that you definitely can't separate politics and economy the way we've been doing left and right for years, you just can't be dependant on Russian gas the way Germany has been for example, and this realisation is going to hurt the Russian economy long term for sure, regardless of how long the war and the sanctions last. I can imagine lots of countries are taking a long, hard look at their options right now in an effort to as fast as possible shift their dependance from the big fossil fuel states (not just Russia) to a more sustainable and less risky option.
    Escalate in what sense? I don't think Putin is going to be defeated in Ukraine, the war is likely going to be longer than he intended, but ultimately Russia has more military might and is seemingly willing to destroy as much of Ukraine as is needed for their surrender, or to kill their leaders and take over. I don't think he cares about how many people die in the process, but the more that die the worse his public image is and the more he really has to sell his 'defeating the ultra-nationalists' story to the Russian people.

    The one (very small) bit of solace I'm getting in this is that the dude is old, hopefully he won't be able to do too much damage with the rest of his (hopefully short) life. I'm not holding out for him being overthrown though, is seems unlikely.

    I agree this has definitely been a wake up call for the West, seems ridiculous that these rich lawmakers decided to just entrust their country's power supply, election funding, best real estate, and god knows what else to Russia ��. But hey ho that's what happens when we have imbeciles who only care about money ruling us.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    You must have missed my post about fighter jets, cluster bombs, more advanced drones, etc., etc. Please scroll above so I don't have to repeat myself.
    The US doesn't publicize what weapons are being sent to Ukraine. You don't know what weapons they've been provided with. You don't know if American cluster bombs are compatible with MIG 29s. Ukraine has shot down dozens of Russian aircraft and destroyed hundreds of Russian tanks. They could not have done this without a massive amount of help from the US and our European allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    You're also assuming I meant F-16s but I guess you've missed what's been happening on this topic too. 4 days ago Poland was ready to hand over 70 MIG 29s to the Ukraine, which Ukrainian pilots are already trained to fly. 2 days later NATO suddenly put the kibosh on the plan for fear that it would be going too far. You don't think that the U.S. played a role in that?

    Zelensky was on a call with 200 U.S. Congressmen this morning pleading for help. He first asked for a no fly zone but, if that was not possible, he asked for the U.S. to let him have the damned planes. He also asked Congress to support more significant fossil fuel embargoes against Russia - duh.

    Btw why do you think that Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are bending over backwards trying to help the Ukraine even while the cowardly leaders of the west keep dragging their feet? I'm guessing because they are justifiably afraid that if the Ukraine falls then they are next. That fear could only be reinforced by seeing Western EU leaders so afraid of losing their fuel and then, joined by the U.S. Administration, become even more frozen in place - while women and children are slaughtered - just because Putin uttered the word "nuclear."
    You're making stuff up again. Poland isn't sending fighter planes to Ukraine because Poland needs them for their own defense. The US isn't preventing them from providing the aircraft to Ukraine. Unless the aircraft have any American made parts, the US can't prevent Poland from giving them to Ukraine. Your views are based on a made up belief, that President Biden secretly wants Russia to win. You also seem to have this delusion, that arguing over Biden's policies on a forum for strippers, is somehow going to help Ukraine. Vyanka's one post, asking other dancers to ask their club to waive house fees for Ukrainian dancers and customers to tip them well, has done more to help Ukraine than your countless posts telling President Biden and European leaders what they should do.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    I read today a lot of people are supporting Ukrainians by renting out their air bnbs in Kyiv. Obviously they aren't showing up, but they are doing this to help Ukrainians get the $ they need.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AChildOfBoredom View Post
    So was Chernobyl.


    The Mujahadeen were able to operate stingers. The North Vietnamese were using American aircraft against the ARVN forces during the final push towards Saigon. Iraq and Iran used captured enemy equipment against each other during their war, etc. Just because we don’t do it (which isn’t to say we never have) because we have the logistical and production capabilities to not have to do it doesn’t mean nobody else does. The Ukrainians are also using Javelin anti-tank missiles, Turkish-made drones, etc. Military equipment is designed for ease of operation. If you have a basic understanding of how equipment of the type functions, it’s not a difficult transition. It sounds like you’ve been watching Sputnik.
    Chernobyl was an accident. It also occurred during an active test involving the reactors, not in administrative buildings like at Zaporizhzhia. There was also flint present in Chernobyl's design, causing the fire to spread more. They are all meant to withstand a degree of military attacks.


    I don't believe arming the eventual Taliban and furthering other proxy wars are the goals that we should repeat. Never said no one could use weapons from other nations, but not many of the 18 year olds signing up/being forced to die will after their 3 days of training.

    Never seen sputnik, not a fan of the genre or Russian propaganda. Don't like the American kind either though.

    Am a fan of this though. Explains why we shouldn't focus on one disgusting man and rather view this through historical imperialism. Who benefits from non stop war?

    https://youtu.be/WZv0-0cx96g
    Last edited by kamiliam; 03-06-2022 at 09:54 AM.
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    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The US doesn't publicize what weapons are being sent to Ukraine. You don't know what weapons they've been provided with. You don't know if American cluster bombs are compatible with MIG 29s. Ukraine has shot down dozens of Russian aircraft and destroyed hundreds of Russian tanks. They could not have done this without a massive amount of help from the US and our European allies.

    You're making stuff up again. Poland isn't sending fighter planes to Ukraine because Poland needs them for their own defense. The US isn't preventing them from providing the aircraft to Ukraine. Unless the aircraft have any American made parts, the US can't prevent Poland from giving them to Ukraine. Your views are based on a made up belief, that President Biden secretly wants Russia to win. You also seem to have this delusion, that arguing over Biden's policies on a forum for strippers, is somehow going to help Ukraine. Vyanka's one post, asking other dancers to ask their club to waive house fees for Ukrainian dancers and customers to tip them well, has done more to help Ukraine than your countless posts telling President Biden and European leaders what they should do.
    No, it was being widely reported almost a week ago, at least in good sources. Then 2 days later NATO's Secretary General got involved and that was all she wrote. Now Poland's President is towing the party line, saying "oh yeah, we never intended to do that."

    The reason that the Ukraine needs those planes so badly is that Stingers are not effective against fighter jets. They only have a 3 mile range and cannot go above 11,000 feet. They are good against helicopters and slow moving troop transports, but do nothing to stop the airstrikes and bombings against their civilians.

    Now, as reported in a WSJ article this morning (which I won't link because it is behind a paywall), the U.S. is considering a deal with Poland that may, eventually, get the Ukraine those MIGs that are just sitting there in Poland waiting to be used. As Blinken put it, "we are very very actively looking..." It's a bunch of horse shit - Poland will do whatever we tell them to as long as we promise to replace those old MIGs with better planes.

    So the translation is: We are going to make more toothless lion noises in committee and drag our asses on the floor until Russia finally bails us out by making this all moot. And yes, I very much believe that Biden secretly wishes that Russia would just finish Ukraine off so that these images of civilians slaughtered and pleas from Zelensky will stop making the collective leaders of NATO look so damned impotent.

    But I will agree with you that Vyanka's "waiving house fees" suggestion.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyanka View Post
    Yes. Make sure you know. I can see some snake dancers making believe they're from there to try to hustle.
    Meh, it is just money.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AuroraJade View Post
    Joe Biden just needs to STFU. Nato needs to STFU too , I dont even want Nato, and Putin needs to STFU too and all the other country leaders need to keep their fucking mouths shut because they are leading us straight into a nuclear winter and pretending they all speak for 'their people' while literally nobody asked for their opinion on anything because they are all just puppets. Lets see how quick this is finished when nobody gives these power tripping puppets any attention.
    You left somebody out

    But yes, agreed. The oligarchs, east and west, should be removed. No more young men and women sent to die for politicians and grifters.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    You left somebody out

    But yes, agreed. The oligarchs, east and west, should be removed. No more young men and women sent to die for politicians and grifters.

    1000% I wonder if all of this could lead to a great awakening where we overthrow our governments. People will wake up and change when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. Right now I’d say things are pretty awful. We have to take responsibility for our complicity and ignorance too albeit unconscious. Not to mention the rich and powerful work actively to keep us passive and obedient. It’s time for humanity to collectively rise up against the rich and powerful and take back our power.
    Focus more on what you want than on what you don’t want

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AuroraJade View Post
    I just dont wanna get bombed and die, lol. Or pay 300/month for electric bill
    I’m sure there’s a lot going on which people in Ukraine didn’t want, as well. It was foisted into them.

    That last sentence? Why are you so angry, lol? Its just politics. We cant change it and its all orchestrated anyway because somewhere somebody profits big from this. Its allllllll about money in the end and innocent people are the victim
    I think launching an invasion goes beyond “just politics”.

    This is all a theater like the last 20 years are a big theater. I just dont wanna make the theater so big its gonna cost me my life or my ways to live comfortable or peoples lives
    Nor do most. Again, some didn’t have a choice in the matter.

    Joe Biden just needs to STFU. Nato needs to STFU too , I dont even want Nato, and Putin needs to STFU too and all the other country leaders need to keep their fucking mouths shut because they are leading us straight into a nuclear winter and pretending they all speak for 'their people' while literally nobody asked for their opinion on anything because they are all just puppets. Lets see how quick this is finished when nobody gives these power tripping puppets any attention.
    Neither Biden not NATO kicked this sequence off. You stop giving them attention, it works to their benefit. Why did Putin feel so emboldened now? Maybe the Crimea, Donbas, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria and the lack of response had something to do with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamiliam View Post
    Chernobyl was an accident. It also occurred during an active test involving the reactors, not in administrative buildings like at Zaporizhzhia. There was also flint present in Chernobyl's design, causing the fire to spread more. They are all meant to withstand a degree of military attacks.
    The design still should have prevented it from happening. Three Mile Island’s design should have prevented that incident from happening. The design of the Fukushima plant should have prevented that disaster. Not sure where you’re getting this optimism from, but stay positive, I guess.


    I don't believe arming the eventual Taliban and furthering other proxy wars are the goals that we should repeat. Never said no one could use weapons from other nations, but not many of the 18 year olds signing up/being forced to die will after their 3 days of training.

    “Eventual Taliban”. That’s cute. I think there’s an ever so slight difference between the Taliban and a nation seeking integration into the EU, but okay.

    Never seen sputnik, not a fan of the genre or Russian propaganda. Don't like the American kind either though.

    Am a fan of this though. Explains why we shouldn't focus on one disgusting man and rather view this through historical imperialism. Who benefits from non stop war?

    https://youtu.be/WZv0-0cx96g
    HAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, no spin doctoring there. “I don’t like propaganda - just ‘indie media’”. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Thanks, I needed that today.

    Anyhow, I’m about halfway through it, but I have an appointment. I’ll follow up on the rest later.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    “Eventual Taliban”. That’s cute. I think there’s an ever so slight difference between the Taliban and a nation seeking integration into the EU, but okay.


    that is what the mujahedeen are. I'm guessing there was a reason you didn't use that term while making your argument

    yeah I enjoy the propaganda that agrees with what I think, everybody does though. At the very least that video really does give you a look into a viewpoint that perhaps you can argue is too naïve, but valid, I hope. I don't agree with everything they put out but that I did.

    Your rebuttals to my responses, just to me don't invalidate my beliefs and my knowledge of the situations. Of course something horrible could have happened in the latest attack, maybe Putin will just do it. He is a monster. But it seems like they did it the way they did for a reason. Does it make it easier to think he has no plan?

    I do not trust the United State's involvement in this situation. I do not trust past times we have given weapons to others in order to continue the Cold War. I get that others don't feel that way, but please understand that there are many ways to view history, and it doesn't always indicate lack of knowledge.
    Last edited by kamiliam; 03-06-2022 at 02:31 PM.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    No, it was being widely reported almost a week ago, at least in good sources. Then 2 days later NATO's Secretary General got involved and that was all she wrote. Now Poland's President is towing the party line, saying "oh yeah, we never intended to do that."

    The reason that the Ukraine needs those planes so badly is that Stingers are not effective against fighter jets. They only have a 3 mile range and cannot go above 11,000 feet. They are good against helicopters and slow moving troop transports, but do nothing to stop the airstrikes and bombings against their civilians.
    Russia's air force is very undersupplied with smart bombs, so their aircraft are forced to fly low to drop unguided bombs. Ukraine has not had a problem shooting down Russian jet aircraft. It looks like they got another three today.

    https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/...819455489?s=21

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Now, as reported in a WSJ article this morning (which I won't link because it is behind a paywall), the U.S. is considering a deal with Poland that may, eventually, get the Ukraine those MIGs that are just sitting there in Poland waiting to be used. As Blinken put it, "we are very very actively looking..." It's a bunch of horse shit - Poland will do whatever we tell them to as long as we promise to replace those old MIGs with better planes.
    Hopefully they'll get more MIGs, but Ukraine's air force is still flying and the Ukrainians have been able to shoot down dozens of Russian fighter planes and helicopters.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    So the translation is: We are going to make more toothless lion noises in committee and drag our asses on the floor until Russia finally bails us out by making this all moot. And yes, I very much believe that Biden secretly wishes that Russia would just finish Ukraine off so that these images of civilians slaughtered and pleas from Zelensky will stop making the collective leaders of NATO look so damned impotent.
    The facts contradict you.

    Rick says: We are going to make more toothless lion noises in committee and drag our asses on the floor until Russia finally bails us out by making this all moot

    Fact:

    Biden approved $350 million worth of weapons to Ukraine. It normally takes weeks or months for foreign countries to receive American weapons, once the transfer has been approved. Within two days of Biden signing off on the assistance, deliveries were arriving at an airport near the Ukraine border.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/04/u...e-weapons.html

    The top U.S. military adviser to President Biden inspected the weapons transfer operation in an unannounced trip, meeting with troops and personnel from 22 countries who were working around the clock to unload the armaments for transport by land to the Ukrainian forces.

    The American weaponry, which included the Javelins as well as small arms and munitions, was part of a $350 million package that Mr. Biden authorized on Saturday; within two days, one official said, the deliveries were landing at an airfield near the border that can process 17 airplanes a day. What began as a trickle — with only two or three planes arriving a day — is now a steady flow, the official said, with 14 loads from one airfield alone.

    Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, included a stop at the airfield as part of a trip to the region. As he spoke to troops, cargos of Javelins rolled behind him. Nearby, two C-17s, the enormous cargo workhorses of the U.S. Air Force, sat on the tarmac.

    The United States has delivered nearly 70 percent of the $350 million package to Ukraine’s military, a senior Pentagon official said on Friday. It expects to complete the entire shipment in the next week or so.

    The shipment of weapons — which also includes Stinger antiaircraft missiles from U.S. military stockpiles, mostly in Germany — represents the largest single authorized transfer of arms from U.S. military warehouses to another country, the Pentagon official said.
    Rick says: I very much believe that Biden secretly wishes that Russia would just finish Ukraine off so that these images of civilians slaughtered and pleas from Zelensky will stop making the collective leaders of NATO look so damned impotent.

    Fact: Ukraine has shot down dozens of Russian aircraft and destroyed hundreds of Russian tanks, armored vehicles, and supply trucks with weapons provided to them by the US and other NATO countries. Eleven days into the conflict, Russia has made little progress. Putin and his military are the ones looking impotent.
    Last edited by eagle2; 03-06-2022 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamiliam View Post
    that is what the mujahedeen are. I'm guessing there was a reason you didn't use that term while making your argument
    I didn’t use it because I don’t even know what the fuck you’re on right now or how the Taliban comes into the equation here. The predominant religion is Orthodox Christianity (with over 87% of the populace identifying as such) - just like it is with ethnic Russians, hence Putin has been calling on Chechens and Dagestanis to serve in Ukraine (and now Syrians, to boot). Not that guerrilla warfare and terrorism absent from Christian nations - including or perhaps especially Orthodox ones - but neither “Mujahadeen” nor “Taliban” fit the bill here.

    Mujahadeen is a general terms for Islamic guerilla fighters fighting in Muslim countries. The Taliban is a specific Wahhabi organization which was formed largely with the aid of Pakistani intelligence to otherthrow the warlords - also Mujahadeen - who were left in power after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    yeah I enjoy the propaganda that agrees with what I think, everybody does though. At the very least that video really does give you a look into a viewpoint that perhaps you can argue is too naïve, but valid, I hope. I don't agree with everything they put out but that I did.
    And the video isn’t without merits, but it is done through a heavily tinted lens. And in spite of being left leaning, one thing which always puts me off from the philosophies associated with it is their Captain Ahab-esque belief that altruistic egalitarianism will conquer all, ignoring not only human nature, but also conflicts which have been in existence between cultures for centuries. You can suppress it briefly, but that kid will eventually blow off, e.g., former Yugoslavia, former Soviet Union, Cyprus, etc. Even if Putin succeeds in Ukraine, occupies it, sets up a PTO-Russian government, his problems don’t end there. He did something no Ukrainian government has managed to do since the breakup of the Soviet Union - he gave them a sense of national identity.

    Your rebuttals to my responses, just to me don't invalidate my beliefs and my knowledge of the situations. Of course something horrible could have happened in the latest attack, maybe Putin will just do it. He is a monster. But it seems like they did it the way they did for a reason. Does it make it easier to think he has no plan?
    Your unfounded assumption that I lack knowledge of the situations doesn’t invalidate my knowledge of them, either.

    Don’t be absurd - of course he had a plan. It just didn’t pan out, and he failed in pretty much the exact same way Che Guevara did in Bolivia, and which Napoleon made regarding Russia, ironically enough. Of the latter, he expected the cat to be in the bag in ~48 - 56 hours and didn’t prepare for a protracted war. Of the former, he thought the Ukrainians would lay down their arms and accept “their place” as Russians of a slightly different seasoning. Suffice to say, neither one happened… even some of (though not all) of the ethnic Russians took up arms against Russia. I’d have thought we’ve both been on this forum long enough that you’d know better than to make the assumptions about me which you have.

    I do not trust the United State's involvement in this situation. I do not trust past times we have given weapons to others in order to continue the Cold War. I get that others don't feel that way, but please understand that there are many ways to view history, and it doesn't always indicate lack of knowledge.
    So what then? Appeasement? You say you know history, so you should know how that fares. How much more emboldened will Putin becomes after this if he’s met with appeasement? He’s already threatened Finland and Sweden.
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    Default Re: What's going on in Ukraine?

    Also to add, it’s quite interesting to see how diverse the Russia cheerleading squad is. The Wumao/50 Cent types aren’t a surprise, nor is a good portion of the “Brandon” crowd, but also the self-described Marxist-Leninist types, in spite of post-Soviet Russia having existed in what Marx himself described as the worst stage of capitalism since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
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