As Ohio restricts abortions, 10-year-old girl travels to Indiana for procedure

[eagle2]

I am sorry but Nancy Pelosi made it very clear that she supports abortion rights past the point of birth. So did Ralph Northam and many other Democrats in Congress and in various state governments. It may not be your position but it is what they have said they support. Many Planned Parenthood people also support women's rights to abort ; even after birth. Yes, yes, I know that most of those cases involve lifesaving measures or fetuses that will die anyway and other extremes. But not all. Some, repeat SOME, of these extreme cases have ratified a supposed right to a "perfect" baby. Both of the most recent Baby Doe cases involved children with Down's syndrome. In the Indiana case from 1982 the baby also had hydro encephalopathy and spina bifida. The encephalopathy could have been treated with a shunt to drain the fluid and neither spina bifida nor Down's is necessarily a death sentence.

You're flat out lying. Pelosi does not support the right to abort a baby after birth, and it is not legal in a single state.

Please don't post that the "Catholic Church is an evil organization " and then try to say that you do not have hatred in your heart. I was born and raised Catholic and I am the first to say that the Church is a fundamentally flawed institution. Inter alia it is a male dominated gerontocracy imposing canon law that goes back to the Middle Ages. It is guilty of much wrongdoing. Right now the Pope is on an apology tour of Canada to express remorse and regret for the Church's treatment of Native Canadians. How many times do I have to post that I joined many Catholics in boycotting mass over the Church's outrageous mishandling of pedophile priests and failure to protect the victims ?

and yet you still refuse to call this evil, and again you're contradicting yourself. You're attacking me for calling your church an evil organization, and in your same post state, " It is guilty of much wrongdoing." If you don't consider priests sexually abusing and raping thousands of children, as well as your church protecting those priests and moving them around where they can rape and abuse more children, evil, what do you consider evil?

That said you have made it very clear that you hate devout Catholics who apply Church teaching to their lives and if in politics to public policy. If you don't like the Church don't join. Don't get baptized. Don't go to mass. No one is trying to convert you so take a deep breath and try to relax lol.

You're lying again. I don't hate devout Catholics who apply church teaching to their own lives. I have close friends who are devout Catholics. I don't care what religion anyone practices, as long as they don't impose their beliefs on anyone else or harm others in the name of their religion. The problem with your church is that it doesn't matter whether or not I choose to join. Your church has decided that it's going to impose its beliefs on me regardless of what I want. Your church is going to try to prevent me and any partners from using contraception. Your church is waging an all out war on women and is fighting to take away the most basic right of women to have control over their own bodies. It's not only women, but teenagers and even 10 year old girls.

[kamiliam]

What did Ben Shapiro ever do to you ? If he's stupid how did he graduate from Harvard Law School ? Personally I do not care for him. While he has retracted or at least revised some of his wackier ideas he is still totally opposed to abortion except as a life saving measure. He IS a homophobe. He thinks ALL transgender people are mentally ill. He is viciously biased against Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular. He no longer supports ethnic cleansing of Israel and the West Bank because it would be "impractical". On the other hand he does not like Trump and opposed him in 2016. He has said that Trump lost in 2020. Many of his ideas are grounded in the Constitution and common sense. He certainly leans far right although he claims to be a libertarian. I hate many of his ideas without hating him.

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me to try and advance your argument or just score rhetorical points. The Baby Doe cases are just the ones that resulted in litigation. There are thousands of other such cases in this country and around the world where abortion is legal. In both Baby Doe cases there were people willing to adopt those babies who were prevented from doing so. Both had treatable conditions. In neither case was it clear that they would die anyway. In both cases the Courts effectively ratified a right or at least an expectation of entitlement to a "perfect baby". For every Baby Doe there were parents who took their baby home and accepted the challenge and burden of raising a disabled child. David Will being a well known and publicized example thanks to the writings of his father George.

The point is that extreme cases of parents trying to have "perfect children " and using abortion to try and weed out unwanted children on apparently selfish grounds plays directly into the hands of anti-abortion extremists.

So the baby in the roe case is a still alive non disabled person, who was adopted quickly after she was born.

Her story not some made up one
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...crecy-n1278821

[JhonnySam]

Completely agree!!

[Eric Stoner]

So the baby in the roe case is a still alive non disabled person, who was adopted quickly after she was born.

Her story not some made up one
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...crecy-n1278821

Your point is what ?

[Eric Stoner]

You're flat out lying. Pelosi does not support the right to abort a baby after birth, and it is not legal in a single state.



and yet you still refuse to call this evil, and again you're contradicting yourself. You're attacking me for calling your church an evil organization, and in your same post state, " It is guilty of much wrongdoing." If you don't consider priests sexually abusing and raping thousands of children, as well as your church protecting those priests and moving them around where they can rape and abuse more children, evil, what do you consider evil?



You're lying again. I don't hate devout Catholics who apply church teaching to their own lives. I have close friends who are devout Catholics. I don't care what religion anyone practices, as long as they don't impose their beliefs on anyone else or harm others in the name of their religion. The problem with your church is that it doesn't matter whether or not I choose to join. Your church has decided that it's going to impose its beliefs on me regardless of what I want. Your church is going to try to prevent me and any partners from using contraception. Your church is waging an all out war on women and is fighting to take away the most basic right of women to have control over their own bodies. It's not only women, but teenagers and even 10 year old girls.

Stop calling me a liar and/or dishonest. You always equate disagreement with dishonesty.

If you review what Pelosi has said in the past it is clear that she does not recognize any limits on the right to abort. Where it gets hazy is in the area of partial birth abortions and rare cases where the aborted fetus is still alive. Pelosi supports partial birth abortion. Despite the hysterics from many Right to Lifers, in those states where it is legal, it is only permitted as a lifesaving measure. Even Tran's Bill that Northam clumsily commented on was designed to permit PBA's for lifesaving purposes. After some careless remarks in the past that could be equated with supporting infanticide , Pelosi learned to be more careful and circumspect in her remarks.

I do not see the CURRENT Church as evil. I do agree that some of its past actions were wrongful and arguably evil. Afaik the Church is no longer protecting pedophile priests. If you know of any such thing , report it immediately. My Church has zero control over your life. Which is why I keep telling you not to join. That way you will avoid any conflict with any Church teaching you do not like. Any imposition occurs through legislation. Some legislators vote based on their religious beliefs. Do not vote for them. Support their opponents.

It may be my Church but I do not agree with or support some of its teaching. Neither in my life nor in anyone else's.

[kamiliam]

Your point is what ?

you wrote a weird false paragraph about the roe baby for no reason? That isn’t what the roe case was about. You made some strange statement about parents being willing to adopt the baby(that was adopted) despite their non existent disability. How were they finding these problems in the womb? Ultrasounds were just coming into hospital use in the 70s. Genomes were not sequenced, I was born in the 80s and my parents couldn’t find out my gender before I popped out.

That is what makes this so much scarier then pre roe, previously their lack of knowledge created a safety net for women.

[Eric Stoner]

you wrote a weird false paragraph about the roe baby for no reason? That isn’t what the roe case was about. You made some strange statement about parents being willing to adopt the baby(that was adopted) despite their non existent disability. How were they finding these problems in the womb? Ultrasounds were just coming into hospital use in the 70s. Genomes were not sequenced, I was born in the 80s and my parents couldn’t find out my gender before I popped out.

That is what makes this so much scarier then pre roe, previously their lack of knowledge created a safety net for women.

I'm sorry but you are mixing up Roe vs. Wade with the Baby Doe cases. Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. The first Baby Doe case from Indiana was in 1982 and a subsequent Baby Doe case came much later.

In 1982 a child born with Down's Syndrome , hydro encephalopathy and spina bifida was denied food and water and permitted to die in the hospital at the suggestion of the treating Ob-Gyn and the Courts permitted it to happen.

[kamiliam]

I'm sorry but you are mixing up Roe vs. Wade with the Baby Doe cases. Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. The first Baby Doe case from Indiana was in 1982 and a subsequent Baby Doe case came much later.

In 1982 a child born with Down's Syndrome , hydro encephalopathy and spina bifida was denied food and water and permitted to die in the hospital at the suggestion of the treating Ob-Gyn and the Courts permitted it to happen.

You are right I was confused what you were referencing, perhaps because baby doe is used for all unidentified dead children, I assumed due to the topic you were referencing baby roe. These baby does you are talking about were about live born children not abortions because once again they could NOT check for these conditions before birth.

[Eric Stoner]

You are right I was confused what you were referencing, perhaps because baby doe is used for all unidentified dead children, I assumed due to the topic you were referencing baby roe. These baby does you are talking about were about live born children not abortions because once again they could NOT check for these conditions before birth.

The first one was. I THINK the second one involved a mother who wanted a late term abortion after finding out through advanced diagnostic means not available in 1982 that her child would be born profoundly retarded i.e. without part of its brain. I think the state where they were living not only would not permit a late term abortion but some Right to lifers tried to prevent them going to Colorado to have it done. Fortunately the Courts did not permit intervention and interference by outside parties.

There is a LOT of misinformation and disinformation being put out by Christers, extreme RTL's and politicians about late term abortions. Trump was one of the worst when in a State Of The Union address he claimed that "thousands of beautiful babies " were being killed . That was totally false and a gross misrepresentation of the realities of what is actually happening. Most late term abortions are done because the pregnancy is endangering the life of the mother. It is outrageous for some pro-life groups to claim that such procedures are not medically necessary when almost all of them clearly are. A very few are done because the fetus is seriously deformed and will die either before birth or very shortly thereafter. In the U.S. there are a tiny number of cases of parents aborting simply because they want a "perfect baby". And many of those are done illegally by unqualified doctors. In OTHER countries there are a lot of abortions being done for such things as gender selection. I think India has banned them but China still permits such procedures.

[kamiliam]

The first one was. I THINK the second one involved a mother who wanted a late term abortion after finding out through advanced diagnostic means not available in 1982 that her child would be born profoundly retarded.

So what is your general point now that I understand who you are talking about? Should more of these babies be brought full term and left to care takers who don’t want them? You are small government, is this a thing you think is ok to give government money to? Are abortions not more humane then both denying treatment, or a lifetime of care? I understand that you aren’t all crazy abortion rights like me but what do we do with these children in your opinion?

Btw I see no evidence of a late term abortion case esp with genetic testing. Just live babies, so I’m interested in your source. Regardless, medical advancements meant that families were not left to make the decision of raising a special needs child after the child was born. Now they can find out and have to carry a child despite their knowledge of the situation. Do you think that will lead to better outcomes? Or just make the law necessary again?

[eagle2]

Stop calling me a liar and/or dishonest. You always equate disagreement with dishonesty.

Then stop with your false accusations. You're accusing Pelosi and others in favor of abortion rights, of wanting to allow babies to be murdered after they're born. Please show me where Pelosi ever advocated this. Again, it is against the law to kill babies after they're born in every state.

If you review what Pelosi has said in the past it is clear that she does not recognize any limits on the right to abort. Where it gets hazy is in the area of partial birth abortions and rare cases where the aborted fetus is still alive. Pelosi supports partial birth abortion. Despite the hysterics from many Right to Lifers, in those states where it is legal, it is only permitted as a lifesaving measure. Even Tran's Bill that Northam clumsily commented on was designed to permit PBA's for lifesaving purposes. After some careless remarks in the past that could be equated with supporting infanticide , Pelosi learned to be more careful and circumspect in her remarks.

As always, you provide no references to support your accusations.

I do not see the CURRENT Church as evil. I do agree that some of its past actions were wrongful and arguably evil. Afaik the Church is no longer protecting pedophile priests. If you know of any such thing , report it immediately. My Church has zero control over your life. Which is why I keep telling you not to join. That way you will avoid any conflict with any Church teaching you do not like. Any imposition occurs through legislation. Some legislators vote based on their religious beliefs. Do not vote for them. Support their opponents.

It may be my Church but I do not agree with or support some of its teaching. Neither in my life nor in anyone else's.

Your church is still protecting pedophile priests. If you did a two minute search on Google, you would know this.

https://www.wionews.com/world/how-th...x-abuse-342467

Cardinal Vincent Nichols, the head of the Roman Catholic church in England and Wales is being accused of hiding paedophile priests. The United Kingdom conducted an independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

The report details are shocking. The inquiry looked into complaints from 1970 to 2015. In this period, the church received more than three thousand complaints. The complaints were against more than 900 individuals connected to the church with more than 1,750 victims and complainants involved.

The church brushed all the complaints under the carpet. In fact, it covered up the entire scandal. When someone complained against a priest, they were moved to another parish without any supervision and any probe or corrective measures.

Some continued to prey on children and in all these years, the Archbishop did nothing including Cardinal Vincent Nichols. He inherited the problem from his predecessors and he did nothing to fix it. Instead, he became a part of it and tried to suppress new cases.

The inquiry found that since 2016 more than 100 allegations of abuse have been reported.

Your church wants to have control over my life. Your church doesn't even want me to be allowed to use condoms, regardless of whether or not I'm Catholic.

[Violethollywood]

why tf is this eric guy even allowed on this forum to begin with?

[Eric Stoner]

Then stop with your false accusations. You're accusing Pelosi and others in favor of abortion rights, of wanting to allow babies to be murdered after they're born. Please show me where Pelosi ever advocated this. Again, it is against the law to kill babies after they're born in every state.



As always, you provide no references to support your accusations.



Your church is still protecting pedophile priests. If you did a two minute search on Google, you would know this.

https://www.wionews.com/world/how-th...x-abuse-342467




Your church wants to have control over my life. Your church doesn't even want me to be allowed to use condoms, regardless of whether or not I'm Catholic.

Pelosi and others have gone on record as supporting any abortion, at any time for any reason.

Rather than figuring out how to hide condoms and other birth control devices from imaginary task forces of paramilitary nuns , I think it is more realistic to focus on the REAL effects of the Dobbs decision.

In Texas , several survivors of sexual assault who were impregnated have now chosen to be sterilized rather than risk a repeat.

Also in Texas , cases are piling up of women whose doctors are trying to determine if they are "sick enough " to justify an abortion. Many doctors are ignoring the clinical signs and symptoms and focusing on whether there is detectable fetal heartbeat.

In a recent study published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology doctors at two Texas hospitals cited 28 cases of women who had recommended abortions delayed because fetal heart activity was detected. At least 60% of them had severe complications. Double the rate in other states with more liberal abortion laws. Of the 8 live births among these Texas cases , 7 were dead within a few hours and the lone survivor had severe defects and complications.

In Virginia female lupus patients are having difficulty obtaining methotrexate because it can also be used to induce abortions.

In Ohio an abortion clinic received two calls from women with ectopic pregnancies who said their doctors would not treat them ! Hmmmm. I hate to say it but maybe AOC was right.

[moneybags]

why tf is this eric guy even allowed on this forum to begin with?

I think the conversation should center around the people it effects the most.

[eagle2]

Pelosi and others have gone on record as supporting any abortion, at any time for any reason.

You keep repeating the same lie over and over again. Why do you come to a women's forum and demonize those who are fighting for women's rights, and defend the worst people and organizations, who have been actively fighting to take away the most basic rights of women? Do you still think it's good that Merrick Garland was kept off the Supreme Court, even though he would have blocked Roe vs Wade from being overturned? Do you still think that leaking the SC's decision to overturn Roe vs Wade was worse than the decision itself?

[Eric Stoner]

I'm sorry but it is NOT a lie. If you go back and review past statements by Pelosi they are extreme and without nuance. I am not trying to demonize her or any other supporter of freedom of choice. I NEVER accused her or anyone else of supporting the killing of late term fetuses. However she has supported measures that preclude preserving the lives or viability of removed fetuses i.e. passively letting them die. If you bother READING or listening to what Northam said you would see that he took a similar position. Without education and explanation of the reality of late term abortions most Americans oppose them. Their opposition erodes and even crumbles when someone bothers to patiently explain that over 90% ( it could be even higher depending ) of them are performed because something is seriously wrong with the pregnancy creating a major threat to the health and life of the mother. Very few abortion supporters take time away from their strident support for absolute freedom and personal dominion over certain female body parts to explain certain extreme possibilities. Imho that is engendered by a certain arrogance and feeling of absolute entitlement to total control regardless of what trimester the pregnancy is in nor the state of the mother and fetus. Like it or not Eagle there are such people in the pro-abortion camp and they do more harm than good in generating popular support . That attitude expressed is something along the lines of " it is a RIGHT " and despite what Roe said it should be absolute and without limitation . Now before you have a conniption I KNOW that is not Your position. However that particular mindset has been expressed on the abortion issue on this very board. Maybe not recently but certainly in the past. I don't have the time but if you did a search and dug into the archives you would find some posts taking that position.

If you bothered READING what I have posted then you might have gathered that I think extremism on the pro-abortion side gives aid and comfort to abortion opponents. The reason being that Americans consistently poll in favor of choice ; up to a point. Likewise I have clearly posted that the anti-abortion extremist position is repugnant to liberty , common sense and as I have posted , good medical practice. What part of "reversing Roe v. Wade was dumb " did you not understand ? Why do you have difficulty understanding things like "it has opened a Pandora's Box " and/or "will have unintended consequences ".

I am admittedly chiding you tongue in cheek for expressing what imho are irrational fears that the Court will reverse Griswold , Loving and Obergfell. There are not even cases in the pipeline remotely affecting those precedents. Alito clearly said that Dobbs did NOT affect any other right or precedent. It was only Thomas and Thomas alone in his lonely concurrence that no other Justice joined who even hinted at revisiting those decisions . Roberts and arguably Gorsuch and Kavanagh are smart enough to know that any attempt to trim the right to privacy in the areas of birth control and interracial marriage and equal protection as applied to gay marriage will probably cause a constitutional crisis that will result in permanent damage to the Court.

I am done with this topic. You are free to whine and wail as much as you like .

On balance , I am VERY glad Garland was kept off the Court, the Dobbs decision notwithstanding. As A.G. he has proven to have the guts of bunny rabbit and the scruples of a jackal. Given current circumstances , the leak of Alito's opinion is neither here nor there. It doesn't matter now except for ensuring that future leaks do not happen.

[eagle2]

I'm sorry but it is NOT a lie. If you go back and review past statements by Pelosi they are extreme and without nuance. I am not trying to demonize her or any other supporter of freedom of choice. I NEVER accused her or anyone else of supporting the killing of late term fetuses.

I am sorry but Nancy Pelosi made it very clear that she supports abortion rights past the point of birth. So did Ralph Northam and many other Democrats in Congress and in various state governments.

I am done with this topic. You are free to whine and wail as much as you like .

I'm not whining and wailing. I'm pointing out your lies. You just don't like having your lies pointed out.

On balance , I am VERY glad Garland was kept off the Court, the Dobbs decision notwithstanding. As A.G. he has proven to have the guts of bunny rabbit and the scruples of a jackal. Given current circumstances , the leak of Alito's opinion is neither here nor there. It doesn't matter now except for ensuring that future leaks do not happen.

Your statement shows your disregard for the well-being of women. You don't seem to know the difference between right and wrong. You're only concerned about "right" and "left." You would rather have a right-wing extremist on the Supreme Court, whose decisions harmed millions of women, as well as potentially endangered their lives, rather than someone whom you consider to be a leftist.

[moneybags]

^^^^you seem like a true ally. It’s honestly been the comments of good allies that have kept me from burning everything down. I appreciate the good men that are standing up for us.

If you support this decision you can forget about watching porn-they’ll make laws that get rid of porn and you’ll be jacking off to old photos from woman’s magazines like you did when you were 16. Don’t say we didn’t warn you. This is just the beginning of our rights being taking away. If you think this about abortion you fell for the manipulation by the media.

They Came
Pastor Martin Niemoller
First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.
To learn more about

We’re being played against each other by the elites. It’s not left Vs right. It’s the elites vs the average person. Quit watching the news and go outside. It’s all propaganda meant to divide us. Don’t to mention if men are starved for affection they get angry. You know what angry men are good for! War. Isn’t it convenient that China is threatening the US. How conveniently timed?

[eagle2]

^^^^you seem like a true ally. It’s honestly been the comments of good allies that have kept me from burning everything down. I appreciate the good men that are standing up for us.

There are many people who are outraged over the Supreme Court's decision to overturn "Roe vs Wade," as well as conservative states outlawing the procedure, even for 10 year old rape victims. This is nothing more than religious conservatives, representing a minority of Americans, imposing their religious beliefs on everyone else. The overwhelming majority of Americans are opposed to this overreach. Even in a conservative state like Kansas, 60% of voters, voted to keep abortions safe and legal in the state.

[moneybags]

Right. Even if you aren’t -not YOU personally-an ally. This decision effects everyone as eventually it’ll be used to take everyone’s rights away eventually.

The alt right eat their own. Look at Ben Shapiro-they told him because he was Jewish that he couldn’t be part of the Christian nationalist movement.

I’m the most kindest and gentle soul but we’ve got to be just as annoying and loud as the alt right. I’m done giving the bully my lunch money and hoping they’ll leave me alone!

Anyone who supports the right now after everything that has came to light is a nazi sympathizer and deserve to be treated as such.

[SnuffleUffleGrass]

Right. Even if you aren’t -not YOU personally-an ally. This decision effects everyone as eventually it’ll be used to take everyone’s rights away eventually.

The alt right eat their own. Look at Ben Shapiro-they told him because he was Jewish that he couldn’t be part of the Christian nationalist movement.

I’m the most kindest and gentle soul but we’ve got to be just as annoying and loud as the alt right. I’m done giving the bully my lunch money and hoping they’ll leave me alone!

Anyone who supports the right now after everything that has came to light is a nazi sympathizer and deserve to be treated as such.

This reminded me, I've had the misfortune to have to work with actively racist alt-right people & all of them at the end of the day are cowards. They eat their own and still expect mercy when none should be afforded to them. The most comical of these alt right people are the women.

Remember, in the United States, anyone espousing neo-Nazi views is viewed as a domestic terrorist. Only a jail cell or execution chamber awaits those individuals.

Back on topic, the tide is turning, but women have to be vigilant. Now is not a time to be passive about civil rights.

[dpacrkk]

[moneybags]

Now Indiana is having a near total ban on abortion. There’s about ready to be some sexually frustrated men. If my state bans abortion I’m done even talking to men. I don’t even wanna look at a dude and risk getting pregnant.

[eagle2]

I read that many doctors are refusing to take positions in states that have banned abortion.

[eagle2]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-adm...160922707.html

Pharmaceutical giant Eli Lilly and Co., which employs 10,400 people at its headquarters in Indianapolis, warned that the ban could lead it to reassess its presence in Indiana.

“We are concerned that this law will hinder Lilly’s — and Indiana’s — ability to attract diverse scientific, engineering and business talent from around the world," the company said in a statement Saturday. "While we have expanded our employee health plan coverage to include travel for reproductive services unavailable locally, that may not be enough for some current and potential employees.”

"Given this new law, we will be forced to plan for more employment growth outside our home state,” it said.