hey people,
here is a study about strip clubs. what do you think?
hey people,
here is a study about strip clubs. what do you think?
For the most part i see alot as true. But saying a strip club is a place for a partner to go and he is not performing adultery is another thing! I would be damned if my guy went, got turned on by another woman and came home to have sex with me. Also fondling another is considered adultry. Adultery comes in many forms for an exclusive couple.
Pamela





I think we've seen this "study" before. As soon as I saw Metropolitan Coalition Against Prostitution, that was enough of a red flag to me that this gal didn't exactly have objectivity and fairness in mind when conducting it.
I'm not saying that her points aren't true, but people with a vested interest in shutting adult businesses down have a way of trumpeting up the bad side of the industry, while ignoring the good, which IMHO is no different than outright lying, particularly when one is doing research.
We actally had a local news station here cover a story on some religious fundies protesting local adult bookstores and state some "facts" about pornography and quoted their sources as the American Family Association and the National Law Center . Not exactly credible sources for objective statistics. Needless to say, I sent them a SCATHING e-mail accusing them of biased reporting. Haven't heard back from them yet.
Former SCJ now in rehab.
"Lap dancing requires the woman to straddle the man’s lap and grind against him until he ejaculates in his pants."
wait, is that the goal? I thought it was removing every 20 from his wallet. Hrm, to each her own.





I have read this before too. And much of it is true in my experience, particlularly the following :
places where women are treated as things to perform sex acts and take commands from men
However a dancer w/ her head on straight exploites this "unbalanced power scenerio" to her benifit, basicaly allowing the customers to feel in control, but the real truth as I see it is they are a slave to their desires- putting a smart dancer in control rather than the other way around.
Clubs portray the job requirements as very flexible. Women are told that they will not be forced to do anything they do not want to do, but clubs overbook women so they are forced to compete with each other, often gradually engaging in more explicit activities in order to earn tips
VERY TRUE!
Women in stripping are denied legal protection relating to the terms and conditions under which they earn their livings
Point in case is the situation where anti dance club laws go into effect and many many managers do not inform dancers that regular work activities can get the dancer arrested.
And then ofcourse there is the whole fake independant contractor stuff. Most dancers think they are independfant contactors, when they are treated almost exclusivly as employees. Try asking for a copy of your signed independant contractor contract and see how many club will either refuse to give you a complete copy or get weirded out by you asking. Why is this- because most contracts are complete BS and not legal. If a club refuses you a copy of something you must sign
RUN
Other clubs have make-up mirrors but no chairs or ashtrays to prevent dancers from lingering. Women complain that too many dressing rooms are down isolated halls or in the basements of establishments and that they have to scream for help when customers intrude
I have heard managers tell bouncers to pull chairs out of dressing rooms and have even seen fines for being in the dressingroom unless it was two songs before or after stage.





Also these parts ring true :
One hundred percent of the eighteen women in the survey report being physically abused in the stripclub.
One hundred percent of the eighteen women in this study report sexual abuse in the stripclub.
One hundred percent of the women report verbal harassment in the stripclub.
All true for me unfortunatly.
Customers pull women’s hair, yank them by the arm or ankle, rip their costumes, and try to pull their costumes off. Women are commonly bitten, licked, slapped, punched, and pinched
I have been burnt for refusing contact,had my hair pulled, had my arms yanked, costumed ripped and forcable removed includeing having my t-back yanked inb as topless club. I have also been licked( my stomach) had my ass slapped many times.
Stripclub customers frequently grab women’s breasts, buttocks, and genitals. Customers often attempt and succeed at penetrating strippers vaginally and anally with their fingers, dollar bills, and bottles. Customers expose their penises, rub their penises on women, and masturbate in front of the women. Women in this study consistently connected lap dances to the sexual abuse they suffered in the club.
Again I have either been the victim,known a victim, or seen everything listed accept the bottle.
I know of at least 3 dancers who stopped doing contact dances because of constent attempts of fingering.
Customers, owners, managers, and staff alike engage in harassing namecalling. Women are continually called "cunt, "whore", "pussy", "slut", and "bitch". Women in this study charge that men in the stripclub called them other demeaning or degrading names like ugly, looser, fat, pregnant, boy, stupid, crack, slash, snatch, beaver, dog, dyke, lezzie, brown eye, hooters, junkie, crackhead, and shit.
Also very true! Most often this happened when I refused dates or extras from customers. OccasionalyI have seen managers/DJ's/bouncers verbaly abuse a dancer but over 85% have been customers.
Men associated with stripclubs repeatedly attempt to contact the women against their wishes. Strippers are followed home and stalked by stripclub customers. Customers telephone, write letters, send gifts, and follow the women around against their wishes. Women recount stories of catching customers following them to fitness clubs, parks and lakes, day care centers, and even lesbian bars. They describe times when customers have broken into their homes
I have had a stalkers, one verbaly violent ,the other broke into my home and attacked me.
All these things happened to me just one dancer and I worked mostly ( especialy after having some of these things happen) upscale, no/low contact clubs.
I found that the more upscale club the better I was protected from the violent things that can and do occur. Same goes for contact level- the lower the contact the better the customers behaved and the more the rules of conduct were enforced.
yeah, Tigerlilly...it's definitely not a pretty picture by any means.
I will agree with all thse remarks. It's abusive and blatant.




Sounds like your typical sex-negative feminist view. Hey , if I go to a barber and he tells me to turn my head this way or that, is he demonstrating his sexual, manipulative,degrading dominance over me?
The whole article was laughable. Do women go into a strip club to be abused, dominated, controlled? What about the standard business ethic- give the customer what he wants so long as it's not illegal? Don't you think the average merchant bends over backwards to make a sale in light of their competion?
If I become an independent contractor do you think I will work for a company that will not meet my needs? Do you think I will continue to do business with them if they abuse and degrade me?
The whole article is a joke by those who emphasize the negatives of the business and have no idea what they're talking about.





While I agree it focuses on the negative aspects of the industry , it still remains very much true and hardly laughable.
The whole article was laughable.......
The whole article is a joke by those who emphasize the negatives of the business and have no idea what they're talking about.
I have yet to see a customer ( except maybe Jason) who sees this type of article as anything other than laughable as Dreamer put it..... probably because either A- they have either behaved badly themselves- which includes pressuring for sex or other non legal acts ( remember contact is illegal in many places) OR B they don't want to admit that they contribute in anyway to an industry that often turns a blind eye to abuse.
I am offended by the laughable comment if you can't tell.....
Dreamer sounds like you pretty much said that the abuses that dancers have suffered- including me- are imagined or something. Highly offensive [flaming]
Without looking at the study, I'll make a couple general observations.
A report can be biased. A report can cheat data to get the results that it's biased toward. But that doesn't mean that everything in the report is false. Example: All lap dancers intend to bring customers to ejaculation. False. Customers often attempt to take liberties that are unwanted and illegal. True.
If you look at the management in clubs (many questionable), the dancers in clubs (many questionable), and the customers in clubs (many questionable), it doesn't take any great analysis to know that this is an environment where abuses are going to occur at a pretty high rate.
There are balances against this, of course. There have to be, or dancers wouldn't stay there. And of course, a fair share of places are reasonably nice to work in, I'm sure. But to deny that there's problems is to deny reality.
I'd hardly call interviews with a grand total of 18 women comprehensive. To state that such activities are "typical" at all clubs based on such a small number of people is about like predicting who'll be the next governor of California by calling your cousin in L.A. and askin him who'll he'll vote for.
Also, of the 18 women who participated, they averaged 6 years and 7 months in the business. I'm sure with that long in the business, they did experience those things at one time or another. But to imply that such things go on every day is irresponsible.
Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle





Destiny makes a good point about there only being 18 women in the study. I think 100 dancers would have been more objective. However I disagree about those things not happening everyday. With there being over 2000 clubs in the US I think one or more of the things discussed the article happen everyday to at least one dancer in every club. Someone is propositioned for sex or someone has their ass grabbed , or someone gets called a bitch. - and those are the most minor things- but also the most common.
It bothers me to see dancers be so conditioned to not just accept that sometimes things like that can happen but to think it is OK...... most of us have seen or known dancers like that unfortunately.
Destiny made a comment I thought interesting- about how long the women in the study worked as dancers.... I danced a little longer than the average in the study but I think 5 years not uncommon at all in our industry. And I don't think a dancer can really see the whole picture of what goes on until after six months to a year. There is so much money around at first it puts blinders or rose tinted glasses on a dancer .
Destiny I'm curious how long have you been dancing?





Thankfully that has never happened to me at a stripclub.Also these parts ring true :
One hundred percent of the eighteen women in the survey report being physically abused in the stripclub.
Yeah, that happened to me at a stripclub, but no worse, nor more frequent than at the spaghetti joint where I waitressed before I got into stripping.One hundred percent of the eighteen women in this study report sexual abuse in the stripclub.
Happened to me in the clubs, but the same stuff happened at the spaghetti joint, and the pay was not nearly as good.One hundred percent of the women report verbal harassment in the stripclub.
Bottom line, restaurants and strip clubs are lousy places to work. But stripping pays better than waitressing. So, I'd rather get my butt pinched and called names for more money rather than less.
I can't get over how well this seems to describe the spaghetti joint.Customers pull women’s hair, yank them by the arm or ankle, rip their costumes, and try to pull their costumes off. Women are commonly bitten, licked, slapped, punched, and pinched
There are some things that I don't miss now that I'm retired, but if I were in the situation of having to waitress or strip, strip it would be.
This business sux, but so do lots of jobs that pay lots less. I can't imagine working at Wal*Mart, or K-Mart. Talk about crappy places to work and on top of everything else, you get harrased there just as bad.
Z





OR C, I know a blatently biased piece of research when I see one.I have yet to see a customer ( except maybe Jason) who sees this type of article as anything other than laughable as Dreamer put it..... probably because either A- they have either behaved badly themselves- which includes pressuring for sex or other non legal acts ( remember contact is illegal in many places) OR B they don't want to admit that they contribute in anyway to an industry that often turns a blind eye to abuse.
Let me excerpt some words from this study and look at the researcher's method shall we? Pay close attention to the words in boldface type.
Data for this research were obtained through interviews, a survey, and the researcher’s participant observation while involved in stripping (Berg 1998; Babbie 1998; Lofland and Lofland 1984).
Good research requires that the one conducting it take every measure possible to make sure that it is done objectively. A little hard to do when you make yourself a subject in your own study.
Women in this study stripped in the local stripclubs in the Midwest metropolitan area where the researcher lives, in local nightclubs in the same area, in metropolitan and rural stripclubs and nightclubs across the United States, at private parties, in peep shows, and in saunas.
Which means that a lot of the dancers involved in the study came primarily from one city, which shows regional bias. Not exactly a good cross section of dancers.
The study was conducted in two phases. In 1994, I conducted free-flowing qualitative interviews for one to four hours each with forty-one women while I was still involved in stripping and compiled participant observer notes about the activities in stripclubs.
In 1996, I proceeded to design a twenty-six-question survey according to themes derived from the interviews to investigate sexual violence in stripclubs. My long-time involvement in the strip industry allowed an association with strippers that was invaluable for administering in-depth surveys regarding sensitive issues. The surveys were administered face-to-face to insure the information was indeed from the women in stripping. Again, the surveys and consequent discussions lasted from one to four hours. Many women explained that they had never talked about their experiences so extensively because no one had ever asked them the right questions.
Or perhaps because they were never asked LOADED questions that were meant to make them give a specific response. Funny, but I never saw any of the 26 questions to confirm whether or not they contained any biased wording.
Since I exited stripping, snowball sampling was employed to recruit the eighteen participants for the survey (Babbie 199. Participants in the survey were asked to pass on postcards to other women.
For the uninformed, snowball sampling is where a researcher actually solicits participants for their study. It is commonly used when research subjects (in this case strippers) from a specific group are hard to find using other techniques. The problem with it is that it is NOT random. Who do you think the participants passed on their postcards to? I'll bet it was most likely someone they knew from their own club going through many of the exact same experiences that they were. Again, this shows that the research sample that she used was BIASED and was not a fair cross section of the dancer community.
Still not convinced, let me pull one of the more unbelieveable stats out of her research data. This is from Table 5 on stalking occurences:
Percentage of dancers followed home against her wishes:
56%.
Extraordinarily high, but believeable.
Range of occurences: 2-500 times
Now I can believe two occurences, perhaps even twenty in an extreme case, but five hundred occurences? Come on, thats ridiculous!
For the record, I'm not insisting that these kind of activities don't go on, or don't go on somewhat frequently, but there are just too many red flags in this gal's research methods for me to take Ms. Holsopple's study very seriously. She clearly was attempting to take the absolute most vile experiences of dancers that she could find and portray those as the norm.
The majority of you gals on this site seem to accept there are going to be negative aspects to this line of work, and some of you here seem to legitimately enjoy dancing in spite of them. I realize that the Stripperweb community isn't any more a good cross section of dancers than the women in that study are BUT-
I do feel that the experiences shared on these very forums from hundreds of dancers on their own free will are a FAR better barometer of what the average dancer goes through on a nightly basis than those of eightteen who were quite possibly suckered with loaded questions designed to bring about a conditioned response. Namely from a researcher with an agenda.
According to the findings of this study, you ladies should be the most miserable, wretched group of women alive, which begs a question that Ms. Holsopple probably DIDN'T ask.
If the job is truly THAT bad, then why continue doing it?
Former SCJ now in rehab.




Also these parts ring true :
One hundred percent of the eighteen women in the survey report being physically abused in the stripclub.
One hundred percent of the eighteen women in this study report sexual abuse in the stripclub.
One hundred percent of the women report verbal harassment in the stripclub.
All true for me unfortunatly.
Customers pull women’s hair, yank them by the arm or ankle, rip their costumes, and try to pull their costumes off. Women are commonly bitten, licked, slapped, punched, and pinched
I have been burnt for refusing contact,had my hair pulled, had my arms yanked, costumed ripped and forcable removed includeing having my t-back yanked inb as topless club. I have also been licked( my stomach) had my ass slapped many times.
Stripclub customers frequently grab women’s breasts, buttocks, and genitals. Customers often attempt and succeed at penetrating strippers vaginally and anally with their fingers, dollar bills, and bottles. Customers expose their penises, rub their penises on women, and masturbate in front of the women. Women in this study consistently connected lap dances to the sexual abuse they suffered in the club.
Again I have either been the victim,known a victim, or seen everything listed accept the bottle.
I know of at least 3 dancers who stopped doing contact dances because of constent attempts of fingering.
Customers, owners, managers, and staff alike engage in harassing namecalling. Women are continually called "cunt, "whore", "pussy", "slut", and "bitch". Women in this study charge that men in the stripclub called them other demeaning or degrading names like ugly, looser, fat, pregnant, boy, stupid, crack, slash, snatch, beaver, dog, dyke, lezzie, brown eye, hooters, junkie, crackhead, and shit.
Also very true! Most often this happened when I refused dates or extras from customers. OccasionalyI have seen managers/DJ's/bouncers verbaly abuse a dancer but over 85% have been customers.
Men associated with stripclubs repeatedly attempt to contact the women against their wishes. Strippers are followed home and stalked by stripclub customers. Customers telephone, write letters, send gifts, and follow the women around against their wishes. Women recount stories of catching customers following them to fitness clubs, parks and lakes, day care centers, and even lesbian bars. They describe times when customers have broken into their homes
I have had a stalkers, one verbaly violent ,the other broke into my home and attacked me.
All these things happened to me just one dancer and I worked mostly ( especialy after having some of these things happen) upscale, no/low contact clubs.
I found that the more upscale club the better I was protected from the violent things that can and do occur. Same goes for contact level- the lower the contact the better the customers behaved and the more the rules of conduct were enforced.
Think of what those statistics would be like if they took in account Gay male strip clubs? Those statistics would be the same or at least double. The whole article was to pit men against women. Why? Because the stripping industry is predominantly populated by women!What if they took in account the amount of sexual abuse cases in the army or corporate offices. You'd probably find the numbers equitable. The whole survey was designed to sway your thoughts in a particular direction.





Think of what those statistics would be like if they took in account Gay male strip clubs?
What if they took in account the amount of sexual abuse cases in the army or corporate offices. You'd probably find the numbers equitable.
A study on gay SC's would certianly be interesting to compare .....
I SERIOUSLY doubt that harrassment and abuse statistics in a corporate office are anywhere near that of a stripclub. Not that it doesn't happen - I know it does and I know it is a problem too but to compare the numbers between the two enviroments is well...... laughable
for one, most companies have strict policies that are legaly enforcable to help combat the problem. And there are whole departments ( H.R ) to aid people who do happen to have it occur. Also it is publicly considered improper to behave that way in the workplace where as in a stripclub it practicaly encouraged!
Yes the study is intended to cause a certian reaction,
yes it could stand to be quite a bit more objective
BUT the abuse info presented is very factual overall.





OR C, I know a blatently biased piece of research when I see one.
According to the findings of this study, you ladies should be the most miserable, wretched group of women alive, which begs a question that Ms. Holsopple probably DIDN'T ask.
If the job is truly THAT bad, then why continue doing it?
The answer to why women continue is two fold( at least).
1. they become conditioned to accept the abuse
or
2. they learn to recognize clubs where abuses are more probable and accepted and avoid those kinds and instead seek out better clubs where abuses occur less often and are not tolerated.
I thought Dr. Cat made excellant points about how the study lacked in certian areas and how it could have been better done. I fully agree but like I said before
biased perspective yes, but not untrue information.
I have had similar experiences belly dancing professional. I was stalked and had an owner tell me I made money "with my cunt".
I then finished college and got a quote "Professional day job" with good pay. I was sexually assaulted (grabbed my breasts) by one of my bosses and reported it. Nothing happened. I wound up suing for a lot of money but nothing ever happened to him - he even got promoted.
I became isolated from the people from work and had to leave.
Yes, I very much believe strippers are exposed to more abuse than others, but the quote " day jobs" have more than their share as well. I think just being a women exposes you to abuse. She should research that. Most sexual assaults that occur in "day' jobs are covered up. It seems that you would have more recourse not being an independent contractor, you don't really.
I also agree that her research methods are shoddy. I had several research method courses in college (and statistics) and an 18 person sample isn't anything.
"If we do not push the limits of our dance, it's not an art, it's just historical re-enactment"
www.rajadance.com
www.myspace.com/rajadance
Tigerlilly:
The only point I was trying to make was how obviously slanted her research was. dr._catfish's excellent post really showed up the bias in this, "study" much better than I could.
Do dancers face more verbal/physical/sexual abuse than the average woman in say a secretarial job? Yes, I think so. However, is what is described in this paper the norm everyday of a dancer's life? It hasn't been in my experience and if it was, do you really think women would put up with it for as long as they did in the study?
For the record, I've been dancing less than a year. If you want to assume I have, "blinders or rose tinted glasses" so be it. In a lot of ways, dancing is a crappy job. Actually, I have training that would allow me to get an okay paying "regular" job. But I can make more in two or three days dancing than I can in a week at a real job, so for now, I'll do it.
Dancing is wonderful training for girls, it's the first way you learn to guess what a man is going to do before he does it. ~Christopher Morley, Kitty Foyle





Oh no ofcourse I don't think dancers should put up with abuse, I do think lots of dancers become conditioned to accept it though. Which I find so sad. There are clubs out there that treat dancers well , it is just a matter of finding and getting hired.Tigerlilly:
Do dancers face more verbal/physical/sexual abuse than the average woman in say a secretarial job? Yes, I think so. However, is what is described in this paper the norm everyday of a dancer's life? It hasn't been in my experience and if it was, do you really think women would put up with it for as long as they did in the study?
For the record, I've been dancing less than a year. If you want to assume I have, "blinders or rose tinted glasses" so be it. In a lot of ways, dancing is a crappy job. Actually, I have training that would allow me to get an okay paying "regular" job. But I can make more in two or three days dancing than I can in a week at a real job, so for now, I'll do it.
Btw- I didn't mean anything bad about the blinders- most every dancer has had that happen in the first year, including me.
You dance for the same reasons I did- and probably most dancers do..... Alot of dancers can do other jobs and often do- I didn't mean to imply otherwise
My point was mostly that it is B.S that such abuses happen in the first place but the real issue is they are not taken seriously and very little is done to help those that are abused. It seems to be accepted in the industry and that is just so wrong.




You know belly dancer, I've known different accounts. Not that I'm doubting your incident but there were clubs that if a customer or anyone for that matter harassed or assaulted one of the dancers the employees would rush to her side and proclaim, "You cannot do that to her , she is our sister!" By which the customer would back away gracefully. Do any of the strip clubs ever have that kind of family support?I have had similar experiences belly dancing professional. I was stalked and had an owner tell me I made money "with my cunt".
I then finished college and got a quote "Professional day job" with good pay. I was sexually assaulted (grabbed my breasts) by one of my bosses and reported it. Nothing happened. I wound up suing for a lot of money but nothing ever happened to him - he even got promoted.
As far as the number of abuses of provacative women in strip clubs as compared to other lines of work, I still think the numbers are comparatable. In a strip club there is a higher concentration of women who have the immediate access to a bouncer should a customer get out of line. In other lines of work if a woman is harassed it largely goes unreported because she is afraid of the repercussions. I've been harassed by fellow employees in past companies, reported it, and eventhough we were covered by H.R. and anti -harassment laws, little was done. I had to fight a discrimination case by my employer and everyone -lawyers ,labor board said it wasn't winnable. But I did.
I really don't think there is a great difference between harassment in strip clubs as opposed to other lines of work.





Earth to Dreamer- phone home- in need of serious reality check and uh.... perfect name btw.
I really don't think there is a great difference between harassment in strip clubs as opposed to other lines of work.
Mix alcohol, many guys, a club scene, strippers, walking around nude or partial, sex like (or actually) shows, lap dances, and the illusion of sex, and yes we get much more harassment in a strip club than any other job i can think of. Simply because we are naked and come into contact with many many people, and mainly men who are looking at us as pleasure for them. We walk around asking for money, they want the goods in one form or another. Women get harassed for being a police officer, by the same cops, we get the whole damn public! Anyone, anytime.
It's the atmosphere! And sad, it's accepted it seems, because if women are going to sell themselves as a product, then we get what we deserve they say. We have to watch our own ass, all the time.
Pamela
Dreamer - I worked in offices for several years. There is no office job which puts its employees in danger of having a finger shoved up her private parts or her nipples pinched or licked or her ass slapped so hard by a customer that it leaves a huge bruise. Office workers do not have to worry about being beat up by other employees because they are better sales people or better looking. If a manager in an office were to call an employee a bitch that manager would be fired and the company would be sued for "creating a hostile work environment". Women in the strip club industry are subject to a lot of abuse because most dancers do not stick together and stick up for eachother. We simply let the managers and owners create hostile work environments which encourage prostitution and abuse; and take the attitude of only the strong survive there for "I am one of the striong". Most people do not have such a stong need to see others as weak. If they see abuses being perpetrated on others they generally band together to defeat the perpetrators of the abuse instead of saying -- I am strong - I can and will put up with anything you throw my way.
Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. - M Rivero
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Okay Live and Tiger, maybe I should elaborate a little more on what I mean. The survey said that STRIPPERS were more likely to be sexually abused in the clubs. Strippers are usually not your typical woman working in an office. Strippers tend to be more attactive , more sensual than your average lot. If a woman is of such caliper then naturally I would expect her to get more male attention, get hit on more in the office,propositioned or asked out more. In short , that is the behavior that she unfortunately carries with her wherever she goes. It is not like ,once she gets on that brightly lit stage she suddenly finds male customers pawing at her for the first time.
Let's take something taboo like child abuse. There most likely will be precautions taken where people will suspect incidents to occur like orphanages, day care centers, grade schools. But what about in a small town where people keep secrets collectively. It largely goes unknown.
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