For a club to allow girl on girl shows... with lube... and oral/fingering? I'm really curious on this. I recently went out to a club with some friends, and in this club, it seemed like a very normal occurance.
For a club to allow girl on girl shows... with lube... and oral/fingering? I'm really curious on this. I recently went out to a club with some friends, and in this club, it seemed like a very normal occurance.


I don't know, I thought that it was illegal since my club doesn't allow it....something about qualifying as sex in a public place? Bachelor parties might allow it as it's in a private area and privately arranged, but I'm not sure. Still, that's pretty weird! Neither myself nor my boyfriend have ever seen anything more than simulated oral, even in Times Square strip joints.
"Just 'cause she dances go-go, that don't make her a 'ho, no.....called up my Mama, said 'I'm in love with this stripper yo.'"
-Wyclef Jean





That depends on each state. The laws are different. In Indiana, it would be illegal. As a matter of fact, oral sex between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home is illegal in Indiana. Of course, there aren't a lot of prosecutions for oral sex in the Hoosier State. In Kentucky where sodomy (finger and/or tongue penetration) is legal, such a show may not be illegal, provided it wasn't "open and notorious".For a club to allow girl on girl shows... with lube... and oral/fingering? I'm really curious on this. I recently went out to a club with some friends, and in this club, it seemed like a very normal occurance.
Holy Shizer Batman, for real?
I heard of these "sex" clubs or performance houses in New York by another canadian friend who went with a COP she was dating, and this house had all these levels with different sex acts being parlayed on each level for people to watch and the audience sometimes were making out (separate from the performers).
I was absolutely blown away that such a thing existed - sometimes I can be a real corn fed prairie raised canadian, I tell ya!
LIVE LONG & PROSPER!
Leigh Landon
Never explain yourself to anyone, because the person who likes you doesn't need it and the person that dislikes you won't believe it.
yea i can understand a "sex shop" "peep shows", and the sort. But a strip club ? I have never heard of one that lets people perform sex acts for a crowd (stage) for money. If there is one, someone please give the name. I have talked to alot of club owners around the states, never have they once said it's legal to do this sort of stuff.
And Zofia, if we have sex and the blinds are open for example in Fl., even though we are unaware and someone sees us, inside our home, we get in trouble. It has happened. One couple went to jail, fines. Got to watch the windows.





In New York, which has more liberal prostitution laws than most states, it is legal for a club to put on a girl/girl show provided that the actual 'sexual contact" is simulated. However, any show that involved actual penetration would definitely be skating on thin ice in regard to legality (of course actual enforcement is another matter altogether).
In New York it would actually be legal though to put on a complete girl/girl show with actual penetration, straight sex, threesomes or orgies in an off-broadway theater (which is considered a "legitimate stage performance" protected by the 1st Amendment), but not in a club (which is not considered a "legitimate stage performance" and not protected by the 1st Amendment).
Hmmm i see. Cali. I guess for a special events night, like a play. It just blows my mind that sex acts may be performed on stage in a strip club, during 'strip club' hours by dancers and or customers too. The pso company i work for may know, as they work all over California. Interesting.
Thanks.
I kinda thought NY would be more open over here in the states. We have a club that allowed simulation here in Florida. But not 'real' sex acts. I think they are pushing it there.
If i am correct peep shows and sex shows (not strip clubs) this is allowed ?
It was in Illinois. Around here extras seem to be rather mild. Girls letting guys (who obviously try to grab/lick anyway) hold their grip a little longer, letting them lick a second longer than it should ever tend to happen on accident... pulling their thong to the side briefly during a dance. I never did any of these, but I've talked to the girls who did, and they say it gets them the money. Well no shit. Anyway, that's really neither here nor there. I found it humorous that in this club they were not allowed to take a rolled up dollar from the lips of a female customer, but they were allowed to pull down a female customer's shirt and lick her stomach. Hey. I didn't mind it.lol It was a good club actually. Girls were very nice (not all of them, but the majority) sincerely nice... didn't hastle you for dances... very polite and good looking girls. Managment was nice and polite (and not touchy!). The only thing that was weird was the lotion show.... (lotion my ass... it was cherry lube).
Illinois was a little strange for mileage. I was in one club where I got a light-contact topless dance. I was in another club where a nude dancer on stage put a dollar bill in my teeth (which I don't like), reached down between her legs, grabbed the bill, and pulled my nose into her groin. The stubble tickled.
I just never knew what to expect - which is kinda fun, too.





Pamela, the confusion comes in because there is first a NY state prostitution law which is black and white about allowing all sorts of sex as long as it is part of a "legitimate stage performance" (i.e. off Broadway theatres), but which is 'gray' in regard to sex shows without a 'live audience' (i.e. peep shows) that take place outside the realm of a "legitimate stage performance". On top of this you have a New York City Ordinance which bans all sexual contact in any venue within the city limits not protected by the First Amendment (i.e. off Broadway theatres are exempt but peep shows and bookstores are not).I kinda thought NY would be more open over here in the states. We have a club that allowed simulation here in Florida. But not 'real' sex acts. I think they are pushing it there. If i am correct peep shows and sex shows (not strip clubs) this is allowed ?
Put this all together and it means that peep shows outside the New York City Limits (or Buffalo or Rochester or other cities in NY with their own city ordinances) are more or less legal, peep shows inside these city limits are illegal, and stage shows which involve actual acts of 'sexual contact' in front of a live audience (which under NY law means no penetration or penis contact but breast contact is OK) are illegal throughout the state unless they take place in the context of a "legitimate stage performance" (which clubs, bookstores etc. are not, but which off Broadway and other theatres are).
I imagine that was as clear as mud! You should try working in an area where the laws change every 5 to 10 miles like NY and NJ because of all of these local ordinances !
So how exactly do they get away with it? Just call it a lotion show and only do it when no cops "check in"?





to be frank, they do it the same way virtually every dancer doing lapdances in every club covered by a restrictive ordinance does - "bend" the law until they get busted in order to draw business and earn money, then pay the attorney and the fine once they are busted! It's just one more cost of doing business, with the exception that black marks continue to accumulate on the clubowner's or dancers' criminal records.
That sucks! I wish they'd just stop...they're such a fun club. I'd like to work there. I mean, I won't be joining in on the lotion shows (lol), but I don't want them to go under different management or anything.
I just don't want them to get shut down.
So then it's illegal practices, they just 'bend' the rules, get busted open back up......How strange.
Yep ..... Thats it Pam. WHile it is always "Illegal" ... Its only BAD if you get caught. Relate this to Driving over the speed limit. Of course Im sure that everyone here ALWAYS adheres to posted speed limits. (uh huh yeah right) We are ALL Criminals in some form or another. It's just a matter of perspective.
14 years working in Strip Clubs. "What a long strange trip it's been"





and getting busted usually applies only to the dancers, not to the club owner or club management! The clubs are never closed down for one minute. And increasingly, more and more clubs are becoming part of either official corporate chains or more loosely affiliated "sister-clubs" (which may or may not have the same actual owner), meaning that legal help on retainer is only a phone call away, and that replacement dancers can be "imported" from nearby affiliated clubs to cover for busted dancers inside of an hour. This translates into local cops and DA's knowing that trying to bust a clubowner is only going to result in many trips to court against high-powered defense attorneys, motions, appeals, etc. meaning the city winds up spending lots and lots of money with a very low probability a bust of the clubowner will stick. Therefore the city usually puts the word out to local cops not to even bother trying to bust clubs themselves or clubowners. But the same situation doesn't apply to busting dancers individually, for local cops and DA's this is usually easy pickin's.
Working in areas where the letter of the law says you're not supposed to be doing something, but with a customer reality that a girl who abides by the letter of the law isn't giving the customers what they want (and what they're willing to pay for) while other dancers are, makes for a Catch 22 situation. If you don't break the law you won't make enough money to cover tipout and gas, but if you do what you have to do (and what all the other dancers are doing and what the customers and clubs expect you to be doing) in order to make money you run the risk of being busted. And I'm not talking about full blown extras either, a girl can be busted for minor contact which would be considered totally normal in nearby areas outside the city limits where these city ordinances are not in effect.
As DJ says, this situation is very much like that faced by long distance truck drivers, where they are forced to break the speed limit in order to earn any money but can expect to be busted a couple of times a year. The difference with some city ordianances though is that instead of being charged with a violation (same as a speeding ticket in terms of legal repurcussions) the girls are charged with a misdemeanor (a real crime like petit theft or small quantity drug possession or prostitution) for violating the ordinance.
Having misdemeanors on a girl's permanent record can have far reaching aftereffects when it comes time to retire from dancing and pursue a "straight' career. Having a misdemeanor charge for violating the dance club ordinance is no worse though from a legal standpoint than having a misdemeanor charge for prostitution.
In most cases, when the dance club ordinance carries a misdemeanor charge, 'extras' become rampant - based on the simple logic that if the charge and penalties have the same legal and financial consequences, that a girl might as well offer extras, earn tons of money between busts, and when busted have the money to hire a really decent lawyer and file appeals such that the odds of her actually being convicted of a misdemeanor are greatly reduced via plea bargains etc. If a girl just takes the bust for the dance club ordinance and goes into court with a public defender, there's zero chance of beating the charge.
This is the same sort of recto-cranial logic used by drug dealers when local drug laws carry penalties as severe as the penalties for murder - leading to shootouts with cops since there's a chance that if the cops are blown away the drug dealer won't face any charge at all, but if the drug dealer takes the bust it's guaranteed he's going down for 25 years!
These ordinances are succeeding in "criminalizing" the exotic dancing business, which aside from the bust risk faced by dancers does just as much damage to the exotic dancing business in general by perpetuating the impression that exotic dance clubs, club owners and dancers are part of the 'criminal underworld'. This is a far cry from the 'good ol' days' when exotic dancing was considered a tittilating but legitimate extension of the show business industry, and a situation I have increasing problems still being part of.
Thanks for answering my question! Illegal, but do it! We have 'no' clubs where it is perfectly legal to have sex (talking strip clubs). I wanted to know that for the longest time. I did not think so. Some people seem to like to play with fire! Thanks Melonie.
DJ_WULF you need a picture by your messages!![]()





Pamela, my understanding of the law in Kentucky is that it is legal to have sex in a club, provided the club does not have a liquor license and the sex act is not done openly and notoriously. That is, if it is done in a private dance room screened from view. Also, the customer could not be involved if he was paying. I'm pretty sure this is correct as I did a lot of checking before I started doing two girl shows in Louisville. This narrow exception only covers the two nude clubs in town because they are the only ones without liquor licenses.We have 'no' clubs where it is perfectly legal to have sex (talking strip clubs).
Z





Melonie, I'm sure what you say is true in many places. However, I've never heard of any dancer getting arrested in Indianapolis or Louisville, and prosecuted, unless they had committed some other crime like prostitution.and getting busted usually applies only to the dancers, not to the club owner or club management! ... This translates into local cops and DA's knowing that trying to bust a clubowner is only going to result in many trips to court against high-powered defense attorneys, motions, appeals, etc. meaning the city winds up spending lots and lots of money with a very low probability a bust of the clubowner will stick. Therefore the city usually puts the word out to local cops not to even bother trying to bust clubs themselves or clubowners. But the same situation doesn't apply to busting dancers individually, for local cops and DA's this is usually easy pickin's.
In the last four years, there has been only one club bust in Indianapolis, and that was where the club owner was charged with bribery of a public official. The police searched the club thoroughly during the raid and did find small amounts of marijuana and other narcotics. Some dancers were charged, but none of them, that I know, were ever convicted. Most got off through the drug diversion program.
In Louisville, there is a seemingly endless battle between the club owners and the city, now metro gov, about liquor licensing restrictions. So far no dancers have been busted to my knowledge, except for some girls who got caught turning tricks in the parking lot of a liquor store next to a club. The LPD knows what is going on inside some of the clubs and seems to only care that prostitution does not happen in public.
Now, the smaller towns in Indiana with their dance ordinances are a different story. There, it's just the dancers who get busted. And you are right, the towns don't want to waste a lot of money prosecuting the club owners.
Z





Zofia, I agree that there are some cities where clubs and dancers can do virtually anything without fear of being busted. This doesn't necessarily mean that the goings-on in dance clubs in these cities are legal or illegal, it only means that the local cops and DA aren't interested in seeing busts occur. Some of my best earnings potential and some of the best working conditions can be found in cities where the clubowners and local politicians and law enforcement have come to an "arrangement" i.e. here's a big fat campaign contribution, now don't bother my club or my dancers!
I also agree that when states or cities have been dumb enough to involve clubs or clubowners in serious charges, that extensive litigation usually follows. While this litigation is in progress, further busts are unlikely (and in some instances local cops are actually enjoined by a judge's order such that they couldn't bust a club even if they wanted to). But club busts of this magnitude usually involve some fundamental issue, i.e. your example of interpretation of state liquor laws, the recent Atlanta example of extra-curricular entertainment being arranged for celebrities by a clubowner etc. and not what individual dancers are doing inside the club.
But as you also state and which I agree with completely, the biggest risk of a dancer being busted is for violating some city's local anti-dance club ordinance. These ordinances are designed to earn political brownie points for local officials and to collect hefty fines from dancers as a form of "dancing tax" rather than jailing them, and usually don't affect the clubs or clubowners much after initial appeals of the ordinances fail. But these local ordinances do wind up forcing the dancers in the area to "bend" the law on a daily basis in order to earn any money, which in effect "criminalizes" exotic dancing.
This "criminalization" is the point which annoys me the most, because it has created an environment where dancers must look over their shoulder every single minute since they're basically doing illegal things day in and day out (even if illegal means being 6" away from a customer instead of 12"). After a while, whether a dancer is actually busted or not, working at a job that requires you to perform "criminal acts" on a daily basis takes a tremendous toll in regard to self-esteem. It also filters into the psychology of club customers (if the dancer is doing illegal stuff anyhow with an 'ordinary' lap dance, why not give me a HJ or BJ). It also filters into the psychology of the dancers (if I'm going to be charged with a misdemeanor for giving 'ordinary' lap dances, and I'm going to be charged with the same misdemeanor for giving HJ's and BJ's, I might as well go for the big money).



A question then for those more knowledgable?? I have been told and even saw on there internet site that Crazyhorse Club San Fransisco provide's for there customer's delight a dildo show. I have seen the picture's of said show in the internet on there site. This may have been it the resent past but it did exist. I only knew about it due to the similarity in club name's and that I am often associated with other Crazyhorse club's as if we are one huge chain. My question I guess is how was that legal ?
Bob: While Obscenity and prostitution laws are based in FEDERAL code (like U.S.C. 18 ) which states that sex in public or for money is Illegal .... it IS up to the individual State laws to modify this (Juat like gambling was once ONLY Legal in certain parts of Nevada but is now legal almost anywhere while small PRIVATE Poker ect. games were accepted) . Obscenity laws are following this same path and are now based on "COMMUNITY STANDARDS" Rather than pure Federal Code. Its the determination of those STANDARDS that is difficult so in court it usually reverts back to Federal code. This is how most Clubs (Swinger and Strip as well as X Rated movie theaters) are getting away with what they allow in PRIVATE. The definition of PRIVATE is also being used as Zofia points out to circumvent Federal code and that is what allows clubs like Crazy Horse SF and others to present penettration shows behind a Glass ..... Private.
Zofia: I have a very in-depth knowledge of the current Laws in both Indy and Louisville (and East St Louis) and what you describe is Not technically LEGAL but it is "accepted" under "Community Standards" in those Cities. Realistically ... if girl-girl sexual contact was LEGAL ... why wouldn't Male-female contact be legal as well under the same circumstances?
Liquor Licensing is one of the PRIMARY methods that regulators have used to control the activities in Strip clubs. That Licensing bypasses certain Constitutional rights of individuals. Its what has created the concept of JUICE BARS. (Gimme a break .. I find this really funny) It seems that the Government feels that we are only entitled to our rights (in public) when we're SOBER.
Interesting to me is the progression of Gambling as I feel that Prostitution will follow the same path eventually. (If its legal in parts of Nevada .. It CAN be Legal anywhere) Once aa legal test for "Community Standards" is determined ....Watch out cause its gonna be EVERYWHERE. Now I wonder if the Govt. will get into prostitution like they did Gambling ... LOTTO. Can you imagone going into the 7-11 and asking for a Powerball ticket AND a BLOW JOB with your twinkies and Soda? Nahhhh ..Never happen because then they couldn't sell BEER !
Anyway ...Thats the overview from my semi-educated point of view. To quote Melonie tho .. I AM NOT A LAWYER.... and to quote Dennis Miller ... I may be Wrong.
14 years working in Strip Clubs. "What a long strange trip it's been"





Bob, the show behind glass is, in some jurisdictions, is not deemed to have a "live audience", therefore it is private in the third party sense and, in theory, accorded the first amendment protections which apply to video and films. I say in theory because a number of 'glass partition' cases have been ruled against on the grounds that the performance is not "legitimate theater" and it is intended to be sexually stimulating rather than an artistic effort.
Of course, a lot of the grayness in this and other "legal tightrope" activities boils down to whether or not it's worth it to the city to attempt to prosecute. If they're dealing with a huge club chain with lawyers on retainer and $100,000 budgeted for annual legal fees, odds are that the city will decide it's not worth the expense to prosecute because of the high probability of the city having to defend itself in appeals at the state supreme court and possibly federal level. The city attorney knows that this would cost the city $100,000+ with the possibility that they could still lose. Also, it's simply amazing how fast the bible thumpers who started out supporting a mayor's anti-dance club crusade withdraw their support once they find out their real estate taxes are about to be raised to pay for the resulting litigation!
However, if the city is dealing with a single clubowner with limited legal and financial resources, they may decide that it's worth prosecuting based on the assumption that the independent clubowner will run out of legal and financial resources before the city will, resulting in the club closing permanently! As with most legal matters, victory often belongs to the side with the deepest pockets (just ask O.J.!)
Also, DJ, I don't want to disagree with you, but for a fact there are HUGE differences in prostitution laws from state to state. For example, Texas prostitution law does not require that the person paying the money has to be a participant in the 'sexual contact', and Texas also defines 'sexual contact' very broadly. I know of two Texas dancers who were on stage together while customers were tipping stageside. One dancer touched the other dancer's breast, and BOOM an undercover cop busted both girls for prostitution on the spot. A Texas appeals court upheld that the girls engaged in 'sexual contact' (i.e. one girl touching the other girl's breast) in exchange for money (stageside tips), and both got a 12 day sentence in the county lockup.
In New York there IS a distinction that the person paying the money has to be a participant, and there is also a difference in the New York definition of 'sexual contact' which requires contact to the genital area (although it can be through clothing!). These differences provide enough gray area that girl/girl stage shows with "simulated" sex are more or less legal in New York, whereas in Texas it would instantly qualify for a prostitution bust.
I just wanted to throw in that this is a BYOB club. 18-20 allowed too, but with a wristband, and ID's must be surrenderred during the stay.
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