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Thread: Investing??? Huh?

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    Veteran Member Shayden's Avatar
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    Default Investing??? Huh?

    Ok I spend horrendously and I don't want all my money to go to waste, I want to retire early. I do save money but in the end that won't be enough to retire on. What should I do? I don't know the first thing about investing, real estate, or anything like that? Maybe Melonie could clue me in.

    Shayden
    When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Well, I'm certainly no guru as far as investing goes. I do fairly well for myself, and I do know the basics, but I leave the province of giving specific investment advice to the professionals.

    With that legal disclaimer out of the way, the very first thing you need to do is start bringing your finances under control. I wrote an article a while back about this, and it's still available at . Start by making a list of everything that you are spending money on regularly. Then figure out which things are necessities, which things are niceties, and which things are luxuries. Cut back on luxury spending, and use the money you used to blow to pay down any consumer debt you have (credit cards, car loan etc.). Once everything is paid off (except a home mortgage), THEN you can start thinking about saving and investing.

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    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    To add to Mel's great advice, once you start saving, put at least six months worth of expenses into a savings account before you start investing. Some professionals recommend even more. The economy is finally turning around, but six months cushion is a minimum.

    Once you have your debts paid down and your cushion in savings, you can begin to look at investments. If you are going to buy equities directly, study the companies carefully. Local companies are always easier to follow than ones half the country away. Don't invest in the industry you work in. For example, if you are a career dancer, don't buy the stock of entertainment companies. Diversify your risk. Your stock market investments are for a long term only. The short term swings in the market are just too volitile for most investors to stomach. Also, people with way more information than you can ever have are working in the short term stock trading.

    Hold the differential of your age in debt instruments. That is, if you are thirty, hold 70% of your investments in equities and 30% in bonds. As you age, you will need more bonds to start paying you income. However, you will probably always need some equities to keep your portfolio growing.

    Dollar cost average. That is, put a fixed amount of money in your investments every month. That way, you buy a few more shares when the price is down and a few less when the price is up. Over the long run, you'll come out ahead.

    At least once a year, rebalance your portfolio. For example if your allocation is 30% bonds and 70% stocks for this year and you find that the stock market has out performed the bond market, at the end of the year sell some winning stocks to bring your allocation down to 70%. Buy some bonds with the proceeds to bring that allocation up. You will find that this locks in gains and helps insulate you against some down side risks. Remember the markets are cyclical.

    HTH
    Z

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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    How I educated myself about increasing my assets (things that put money INTO my pocket continuously)....

    Books, books and more books (plus related websites). The "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" series of books are very good. Even for me as I'm Australian and they are aimed more for Americans. Still alot of good things you can use.

    Get a financial plan together. Find a financial planner that will help you realise your financial goals - go "shopping" for a FP.

    Here are some older threads that might still be relevant to you:

    http://www.stripperweb.com/cgi-bin/y...num=1058773338

    http://www.stripperweb.com/cgi-bin/y...num=1047518124



    enter: E3167322D9 for your 10% discount

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    I am sure I may shock Melanie, but I think Zofia's allocation by age is too conservative at the higher end as the person ages. At 65 in 1980, a person would have passed up on a major increase in stock market gains over the past 20+ years which could have been used to support ones standard of living. A consideration is tinkering with this allocation based on the persons' earnings profile, other sources of income, and time horizon.
    Also be aware that any attempt to dodge taxes by underreporting income will reduce your earnings profile for calculation of social security benefits unless your post-dancing job has a very high income, so any dollar you underreport as income has to be saved, not spent on a nicer car or vacation.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Geek, I agree with both you and Zofia that once a person organizes themselves into a serious investing mode that there are many different points of view in regard to investing strategies most appropriate for individual situations. But where the vast majority of dancers are concerned, they're nowhere near being in a position to have to face such decisions. Back to basics once again ...

    #1 - start a disciplined savings plan, putting aside x dollars per week or y % of earnings.

    #2 - use the money you save to pay off any high interest consumer debt you have (credit cards, car loans)

    #3 - use the money you save to get all of your regular bills paid up to current

    #4 - keep saving until your bank savings account balance is equal to about 6 months worth of typical earnings

    #5 - decide whether purchasing certain things will enable you to reduce regular living expenses (i.e. buying exercise equipment vs. gym membership, buying a decent late model used car in cash vs. leasing or loan, all the way up to buying a home vs. renting), and do it.

    #6 - keep saving until your bank savings account balance is again equal to 6 months of earnings after making these purchases

    #7 - establish a 'small' IRA or other strategic retirement plan where the earnings will be tax-free or tax-deferred (I like NY muni bonds myself), and start contributing to it.

    #8 - THEN think about serious investing in stocks, corporate bonds or other "mainstream" investments.

    To paraphrase something I wrote in the article, it makes absolutely no sense to debate the merits of earning 1% bank savings account interest vs. 2% money market interest vs. 4% bond interest vs. x% stock capital gains and dividends, when at the same time girls are paying out 18% interest on credit card balances and 10% late fees on bills and 7% interest on car loans (don't be fooled by the 0% promotions either - the interest cost is simply added to the sale price). You've got to STOP PAYING INTEREST to someone else before you can start earning interest for yourself!

    The sole exception where paying interest is concerned is a home/condo mortgage payment, where the mortgage interest is tax deductible and therefore being partially paid for by the US government in the form of reducing your income taxes.

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Mel...on #4 you say save 6 months of earnings. Well, we all know (or hope!) that our earnings well exceed our living expenses. I thought one should save 6 months of living expenses. That's what I have save in a money market account. Do I have too little?

    Also, what do you think of student loans? I owe about $11,000 to the US Dept of Education. It's at 4% APR and the interest is tax-deductible. I'm treating this as a lower priority than saving. I could theoretically pay it off with the money in my emergency fund, but that seems scary. What do you think?

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Mel I agree 100% with your first steps. There is an extra incentive for ladies to keep in mind about having a reserve fund. If you break your arm or leg by slipping on a banana peel, you face a posssible 4-6 week absence of income. If you have a baby you face a period of additional costs + a loss of income for a sustained period of time on both ends of delivery. Prepearing for that possibility now is a lot more comfortable than a massive lifestyle change later that drops on you like a bomb when your mind is on other things and eliminates complications.

    Emily, treat the student loan with tax advantages as you would a mortgage. The after tax cost of that debt is really low, and can readily be beaten by what you can earn on the money. 6 months readily accessible expenses is fantastic, if the differences is pretty accessible. It gives you options for 6 months so you do not have to have a fire sale at a bad time.

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    I'm saving up to get my teeth fixed over paying off the student loan. I'm all excited about veneers now. I really have no idea how much this is going to cost, but I'm estimating $4000. This, of course, could wait.

    I don't know if this is money better spent towards debt. I have a mortgage and a 1.9% APR car loan as well.

    I really want a pretty smile!

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Mel...on #4 you say save 6 months of earnings. Well, we all know (or hope!) that our earnings well exceed our living expenses. I thought one should save 6 months of living expenses. That's what I have save in a money market account. Do I have too little?
    Well Emily, this amount is a judgement call depending on your own particular situation. It's meant to allow you to deal with a worst case scenario like your car being totalled and having to unexpectedly buy a new one, or the roof of your house caving in, or being laid up with a leg cast for 2 months followed by physical therapy and getting back into shape before you can dance 6 months down the road. If you have other assets which you could liquidate without taking a loss if a worst case scenario should occur, and if you're personally comfortable with the idea, 6 months worth of normal expenses is fine by me! I personally don't even have 6 months worth of living expenses in "instant access" short term investments at this moment, but I do have gold bars and speculative stocks which I could liquidate at any time to cover my needs if I should be hit with a worst case scenario (which would only mean that I'd have to pay cap gains taxes this year instead of next year).

    Also, what do you think of student loans? I owe about $11,000 to the US Dept of Education. It's at 4% APR and the interest is tax-deductible. I'm treating this as a lower priority than saving. I could theoretically pay it off with the money in my emergency fund, but that seems scary. What do you think?
    Again, this falls under the same basic exception as home mortgages. If the interest is tax deductible, and if the interest rate you are paying on the student loan is lower than the interest rate you could earn from a stable investment, then it's smarter to let the loan stand and continue to make payments on it. Think of it this way. If you're in a 33% tax bracket, then the government is paying 1/3 of your student loan interest via reducing your income tax liability. This makes the 'real' interest rate on your student loan only 2.7%. Just about any type of other investment where you could park your money instead of paying off the student loan will pay 2.7% interest or more after taxes.

    I'm saving up to get my teeth fixed over paying off the student loan. I'm all excited about veneers now. I really have no idea how much this is going to cost, but I'm estimating $4000. This, of course, could wait. I don't know if this is money better spent towards debt. I have a mortgage and a 1.9% APR car loan as well.
    I really want a pretty smile!
    Well, you've already taken a licking with the 1.9% car loan (which actually means that you pre-paid part of the loan off by agreeing to a higher purchase price than you otherwise could have gotten for a cash deal). It doesn't make a lot of sense to pay the 1.9% balance off early. Since student loan interest and home mortgage interest payments are tax deductible, it doesn't make any sense to pay these down early either unless the interest rate is comparatively high (like over 7.5%).

    Tooth veneers are also not exactly a frivolous expense. Getting tooth veneers can actually result in increased earnings potential for yourself, if you are more inclined to smile and draw attention in clubs after you get them. As such they are a "business investment", even if the IRS won't allow you to deduct them as such. Investing $5000 in tooth veneers but earning an extra $100 a week while dancing after you get them represents an investment which pays off at a 100% annual interest rate (my own veneers actually raised my income even higher than this). Purchasing veneers is a far better use of your money than just about anything else, as long as you have your 6 months worth of earnings/expenses "emergency fund" set aside already.

    If it were me, I'd get the veneers right away so you can start earning more money at the clubs as soon as possible.

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    thanks Mel...I see the veneers as an investment too. I believe I read on here that certain clubs won't hire a girl with crooked teeth. It's not that far-fetched to think a perfect smile will make me an extra $20/night....$5000/yr.

    Thanks for the advice. I guess I kind of knew it. I just wanted to hear it from our resident expert to give me a warm fuzzy that I was doing the right thing. The one bad thing abotu student loan interest is that you can only make the deductions for 5 years, and I only have a year left of that.


    Gah! Got to get to work....big football crowd will be on its way soon.

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    God/dess Bella21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    A little off topic and you may already have this under your belt, but I thought a good education was a wonderful investment that can keep you earning good money even after you're done dancing.
    If you think school is hard, try being stupid.

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    God/dess montythegeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    I sort of figured that since she had 11K in student loans, she had a pretty good investment in human capital in place already.

    What you have invested in your education can be the investment with the greatest return on investment you can have. It can theoretically be a waste from a strict financial standpoint if you never use any of it--like going to law school and never using that info. in any way. That does not mean it is a waste, just a consumption item rather than an investment. Learning the process of learning is useful in an of itself.

    As for the tooth work Emily, if it makes you think you are better than you were originally and adds confidence, it helps you make money even if no one notices your smile. The same can't be said for all cosmetic endeavors (like a birthmark on the butt of someone who does not show their butt daily), but if it is that high a priority to you, it is worth it, since you will have your smile and confidence for the rest of your life, in any endeavor.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Bella, given the changes in the US job market lately, I have to agree with Geek that a 'good education' may no longer be a good investment from a purely financial standpoint. Ask any Computer Science major who is now working as a sales clerk because the software development they used to do for $75k+ per year is now being done in India for 1/3rd as much.

    I'll go out on a limb and say that an "Ivy League" style education is ALWAYS a good investment, because the contacts you make at these colleges will be significant players in the business world for the rest of your life, and you will always be able to take advantage of those contacts. I can't say that the same is true of state colleges or technical institutes, because these only provide the knowledge but not the useful contacts. Without the contacts, you are vulnerable to the possibility that your particular area of skill will be exported, obsoleted, or poorly paid as you have to compete in the general job market instead of just calling an old school buddy who happens to now run a profitable company.

    Keep in mind also that by spending say 20 hours a week taking college courses versus spending an extra 20 hours a week dancing, the 'net' cost of that college education also has to include the 'lost earnings potential'. While tuition at a state college may amount to $20,000 per year, the 'lost earnings potential' of not dancing those extra three days while you're going to class may amount to an additional $50,000 per year!

    Not that I'm trying to dissuade anyone from obtaining a college degree, but dancers have a finite time window of maximum earnings potential. It is therefore prudent to question the wisdom of spending $80,000 in college tuition to obtain a bachelor's degree in Computer Science, and at the same time pass up $200,000 in lost dancing earnings during the years you are going to college, when your potential earnings in the Computer Science field after you graduate might wind up being $50,000 per year due to export of jobs and immigration of foreign Computer Science grads who are willing to work for peanuts. In this situation, more than one dancer with a Computer Science degree will still find herself continuing to dance after she graduates, with a bank account some $280,000 smaller than if she hadn't pursued the degree and had simply danced those extra 20 hours a week for 4 years !

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    and yes, I did go graduate myself from college....go me!

    And just to add to Mel's point, I have a bachelor's degree in computer science from a prestigious college and here I am....dancing full-time. I figure I can do programming any time (there will always be a demand for female programmers, so I'm not particularly worried about finding work), but I can only dance now.

    When I was in college, it never occured to me to start dancing, so I never weighed the pros and cons. I am glad I went though. It's not just for the job opportunities, but for my own mental health.

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    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    I am sure I may shock Melanie, but I think Zofia's allocation by age is too conservative at the higher end as the person ages. At 65 in 1980, a person would have passed up on a major increase in stock market gains over the past 20+ years which could have been used to support ones standard of living. A consideration is tinkering with this allocation based on the persons' earnings profile, other sources of income, and time horizon.
    Monty,

    I use the age allocation method because as a person ages, the less risk she is likely to be willing to take, and the need for income from investments rises. Lets face it, most of us want to be retired by age 65! That means we are most likely not going to be drawing a salary.

    Your example of a person, age 65, in 1980 missing out on much of the stock market's gains over the last twenty years is correct, to a point. However, if that person had no income, or just social security (roughly $500 - $800 per month in 80's) she would have been cash flow impoverished even while participating in the run up of the market.

    However, you are correct when you say that other sources of income should be taken into account. My lawyer, a wonderful gentleman is now almost 90 years old. He works everyday and is sharp as a tack! He, I hope, has not converted most of his portfolio to bonds. He earns a substantial living from practicing law and according to my father, he has a huge tree farm as well.

    The age allocation formula is a good safe rule of thumb for those who want to be self sufficient. Naturally if they are extraordinarily talented, like my lawyer, they can alter the formula. For those of us of more modest talents, the age formula is safe.

    Z

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    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    #7 - establish a 'small' IRA or other strategic retirement plan where the earnings will be tax-free or tax-deferred (I like NY muni bonds myself), and start contributing to it.
    Assuming that the interest on the NY Muni bonds is exempt from taxation, putting them in a regular IRA, would probably be overkill. However, putting them in a Roth IRA and then investing the interest might be a pretty good idea.

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    God/dess Lena's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Melonie, you're convincing me not to go to school, or at least to cut back on classes. What's the point in taking 18 credits and being stressed and losing income, when I could be taking 12, or even 9 credits and take longer to graduate but not be stressed about paying for school and having money... hmm...

    Thanks :-)

    Lena



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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?


    Assuming that the interest on the NY Muni bonds is exempt from taxation, putting them in a regular IRA, would probably be overkill. However, putting them in a Roth IRA and then investing the interest might be a pretty good idea.
    Zofia, my NY Muni Bonds are not in an IRA - I use the fact that they are federal and state tax exempt as part of that "strategic retirement investment" I was talking about, but without locking myself into an IRA's age restrictions, tax penalties etc. Another part of that "strategic retirement investment" I was talking about is a Universal Life insurance policy which allows me to move the principal between differerent sector funds and which is basically tax exempt also. In point of fact I do not have an IRA because I am not comfortable with the age restrictions and early withdrawl penalties in our ever changing economy (in other words a lot can change in 25 years and having money locked up in an IRA might turn out to be a big loser)

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Melonie, you're convincing me not to go to school, or at least to cut back on classes. What's the point in taking 18 credits and being stressed and losing income, when I could be taking 12, or even 9 credits and take longer to graduate but not be stressed about paying for school and having money... hmm...
    Thanks :-) Lena
    This is of course a judgement call. If you have the discipline to keep taking 9 credit hours (part time) and work an extra couple of nights instead, you'll wind up not only earning a lot more money. If you time your graduation to co-incide with your retirement from dancing, you'll also have a much more current degree (which can be an issue when pursuing straight jobs) and won't have to explain to a prospective employer why you got your degree 3-4-5 years ago but haven't worked in your chosen field (because you kept dancing).

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    God/dess Bella21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    Hmm... I've never heard it explained that way... At the same time, I guess that kind of goes to whatever each person's individual goals are. I started dancing to get my butt through college with better grades due to the flexible schedule. Also, faster, since I want a PsycD hopefully before I turn 30. However, if someone is only going for a bachelor or master's degree, there's not too much of a rush to finish very quickly since dancing may very well pay better than whatever job you end up getting.
    If you think school is hard, try being stupid.

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    God/dess Bella21's Avatar
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    whoops psyD, maybe I need to hit my eng homework now...
    If you think school is hard, try being stupid.

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    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?


    Zofia, my NY Muni Bonds are not in an IRA - I use the fact that they are federal and state tax exempt as part of that "strategic retirement investment" I was talking about, but without locking myself into an IRA's age restrictions, tax penalties etc.
    Gotcha. I thought tax exempts in an IRA was overkill.

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    I used to be a financial advisor. Here's advice that virtually all professional investment advisors agree on: (1) spend less than you earn (there was a bestseller a few years ago titled "The Millionaire Next Door" that surveyed millionaires all over the country - this was the one common behavior; (2) buy a diverse group of mutual funds on a regular basis (go to any stockbroker and open an account); (3) dollar cost average - that means that you put a set amount of $$$ into your protfolio every month. And the reason it works so well is that because you're investing a fixed amount each month when prices are low you buy more shares and when they're high you buy fewer - over a long period of time it works wonders. (4) take advantage of tax breaks - if nothing else get yourself a Ross IRA, which lets you invest after tax dollars (let's face it a lot of you guys don't pay much tax anyway) so that when you cash in it's all tax free. Save when you're young and you can be rich the rest of your life.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investing??? Huh?

    I used to be a financial advisor.
    ...
    get yourself a Ross IRA.
    hrm

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