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Thread: California Revenues and Budget Issues

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    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
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    Default California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Here is an analysis of California revenues http://www.ccsce.com/pdf/bseries1_tax_bases.pdf.

    For those of you who are living in California, I'd suggest you ask Gray Davis, Cruz Bustamonte and Arnold if they are aware of this analysis, and how they plan to deal with the California budget in light of it. I really hope that you Californians get some good answers from some serious people and make a wise choice on October 7.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Wow, talk about bizarre conclusions. The group that wrote this study is basing their conclusions on a presumption that average personal income in California is going to increase faster than other segments. Can't these folks see that wave of high income white collar Californians heading across the Nevada border, and that second wave of illegal Mexicans heading north across the border to obtain their illegal alien California driver's licenses, MediCal benefits and welfare checks ? If you live in Nevada, your income no longer counts as California income (and you no longer have to pay California income tax rates). And if you're collecting government benefits and working under the table, your reported California income is zero!

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    As a california escapee to nevada, I can say that Melonie's observations are right on the mark!

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Sorry, I beg to differ.

    California ain't that bad. The white collar people that move out across the Nevada border are few and far between. The company is usually in Sacramento so they move to the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe to escape CA Taxes. The rest that move out of state usually are cashing in thier real estate equity, and severance pay by waiting out the recession and investing the profits in whatever they can to increase thier portfolio. Once, the recession is over they move back in here again by the droves, and start over. That's what happened in the last recession before the Dot Com Boom. Most of the CEO's for the Dot Com's were CEO's here during the micro chip boom of the 80's before the bottom fell out, and production moved overseas. Also you forget that White Collar Californians are a spoiled bunch, we love the quality of ammenitys this state has to offer no where else compares. Especially Nevada!! So it is very hard to pack up and move because we are so spoiled. We'd rather pay through the nose to have access to ammenities than live elsewhere without the quality we are used to.

    As for the waves of illegal immigrants cashing in and bankrupting our welfare system, and Medi Cal are few and far between. Most come here to work, their Welfare System is the farms, vineyards,construction, car washes, restuarants, meat cutting,ranches,landscaping, and other menial back breaking labor that you couldn't pay a U.S. Citizen enough to do the work at all. In fact the alot of the illegals move to the Midwest and the South to fill that niche there too. Most illegals eventually become citizens, and open up a small buisnesses themselves contributing to our economy nicely. You also forget that most people cashing in on the welfare system are White, and U.S. Citizens too lazy to get out of bed and work like the Illegals do.

    As for Medi Cal benifits:

    1. They don't come into Hospitals and use them until it is to late, out of ignorance and fear. When they do come; it's in the ER because they let a small problem grow into life threating one.

    2. Alot come in with 3 rd world diseases that you have to treat in order to prevent a public health crisis from breaking out in this country. If left unchecked it would cost us all more money if we didn't treat them. Unfourtently, there is no Ellis or Angel Island anymore.

    This argument about White collar workers leaving the state en masse, and illegal immigrants draining the system always pops up whenever CA is in a recession. It was the same argument used during our last recession. It never goes away. It just keeps coming back worded a little differently each time. That's it.




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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Madgrad, I have some friends who live in California and who also feel as you do, that the "magic" of California living is worth any price. Hey, if it makes you happy, go for it! On the other hand, my Website is hosted in California, and all I see and hear from my Web Host is that power bills have gone up, telecom (bandwidth) bills have gone up, property taxes are going to go up, other Web clients have gone belly-up already, and that the Web Hosting company is struggling to break even. Fortunately, my Web Host guru also doubles as a consultant for computer equipment which must be sold after corporate bankruptcies, a side job which has kept him very busy lately.

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Sorry, Madgrad. I don't know if you live in california but it sounds like you don't. Either that or you have money to burn. A nice house in SD costs about $2,000,000 and a crappy one is about 5,000. I was born and raised in CA and I always thought I wouldnt leave it for the world, but the prices are finally absolutely ridiculous to me. I also don't agree with what you stated that most on welfare are white american citizens too lazy to get off their asses. Many on welfare may seem like that if you meet them but they may have health or mental issues that they are dealing with. Sorry, just thought I'd stand up for the few who can't help it I used to think that illegal mexican imigrants were a big part of the economy, doing alot of the grunt work that no one else would (I always saw them riding bikes to pick strawberry's in the field on my way to school in the morning). However, there are just so darn many now!
    Melonie, I don't know how you do it but you're absolutely right... again.
    If you think school is hard, try being stupid.

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    oops, I meant a crappy house (in the ghetto btw) is 500,000
    If you think school is hard, try being stupid.

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Bella,

    I got you beat. I live in the S.F. Bay Area, I'm sorry our techies moved to San Diego and ruined it for you too. At least you know how I feel about being priced out of an Area you love.

    It could be worse though, you could be in Hawaii paying thier cost of living it makes Bay Area prices look a holiday. [Hawaii: Bay Area type rent, Bay Area car insurance rates x 3, Grocery Bill for 1 =3 on mainland, jobs look foward to working 2 at the same time even if your a dancer- pay minimal.]

    As for welfare receipents; I have no problem if they have health or mental problems that prevents them from working, but I do have a problem when they are able bodied, able minded, and still refuse to get off there ass, and go to work or go to school. I also hate having to say "most people on the welfare system are white" but it is a proven government statistical fact, not fiction.

    As for too many illegals here it seems like that because they stand out like a sore thumb. But the same things were said about the Italians, the Jews, the Japanese, the Chinese, Mexicans, The Irish, the Portugese, the Dominicans, the Puerto Ricans, the Cubans, the Middle Easterners, the Vietnamese, and anyone else who I left out that came to America at one time or another.

    If you don't think of how important illegal immigrants are to our economy. Just think about it this way, are you willing to pay $10 for head of lettuce, $20 for a Mc Donalds Happy Meal, $15 for a basket of strawberries, $50 a plate at Denny's. No- I don't think so, but thats what would happen, if we did deport everybody who came here illegally. Prices would go up drastically for goods and services we take for granted daily.

    Do I think we should allow anyone who came here illegally to stay; absolutely not!! My personal belief is that if somebody comes to this country too wreak havoc(civil, criminal, or otherwise) or just to get on the dole. They should be deported enmasse, as they are not contributing anything to this society, except to it's down fall. We have enough problems with our own citizens to deal with; let alone somebody elses, that come's here to abuse the privilege of living and working in the US. While others toil daily trying to make a decent buck, feed thier familys, hoping one day to get thier piece of the pie and live American Dream.

    BTW the ghetto house I'm living with roomates is worth about $537,000 and this is in East Palo Alto for christ sakes. I never thought growing up in Pleasanton, that I would ever be the working- rent poor living in an inflated ghetto barely making ends meet on a daily basis. But life happens and here I am doing it.

    It ain't pretty, but I'll keep doing it until I finish my school and it's my turn to live the American Dream.



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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    As for too many illegals here it seems like that because they stand out like a sore thumb. But the same things were said about the ... Puerto Ricans....
    Puerto Ricans are US citizens and thus cannot be illegal immigrants.

    If you don't think of how important illegal immigrants are to our economy. Just think about it this way, are you willing to pay $10 for head of lettuce, $20 for a Mc Donalds Happy Meal, $15 for a basket of strawberries, $50 a plate at Denny's....
    I think you are overestimating the cost effect of labor in the production of those goods. It is true that illegal aliens have the effect of lowering wages. However, raising wages in agriculture to the current non-agricultural minimum would not raise the prices as much as you have suggested.

    However, you do make a good point that illegals do a great deal of work at wages well below what legal residents and citizens would find acceptable. This has the affect of depressing wages for all of us, even well outside the agricultural workforce.

    Presidents Bush and Fox were working on an amnesty scheme which would have "legalized" current illegals and clamped down on further illegal immigration. September 11 put those plans on hold. Frankly, we missed an opportunity. Amnesty would have required registration. Those registrations could have been used to quickly sort through the undesireables and criminals for quick deportations. It would have strengthened the hand of the Mexican government in dealing with illegal immigration from their side of the border as well as eased the restrictions on moving money from the US to Mexico.

    As it stands, Mexico has gone about as far as it can on the banking issues. President Bush has not been able, mainly due to Democrat opposition in congress, to advance the registration and amnesty ideas. Admittedly, the far right and just about every Democrat who values organized labor's support is unwilling to permit any kind of amnesty program. I think labor is wrong on this one, from their own self interested viewpoint. More legal immigrants would mean more opportunity for labor to organize. Unfortunately, labor tends to view any worker as a potential threat rather than a potential member. President Bush is left with middle of the road Republicans to try some type of immigration reform. Unfortunately, there just isn't a majority to be made of middle of the road Republicans.

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    In the final analysis, this isn't about illegal aliens, it's about the percentage of "middle class" or "rich" people in a particular state, versus the percentage of "poor" people. If the state then chooses to provide a wide array of publicly funded benefits for these "poor" people, which must be paid for by taxes on the "middle class" and "rich" people and on businesses, then you have established a "transfer of wealth" program. Many of these publicly funded benefits are obvious, such as MediCal, public hospitals, welfare checks. However, many other benefits are not so obvious i.e. subsidized rent, subsidized electric and telephone service, subsidized college tuition, subsidized public transportation costs etc. Also, "poor" people also create other expenses which must be paid for by public funds i.e. increased police coverage, local and state prisons, increased demands on courts, schools, sanitation etc. In the final analysis, all of these costs must be passed to the "middle class", "rich" and businesses, since the "poor" pay much less in taxes (if anything at all in taxes) than their government benefits, subsidies and demand for services actually cost.

    When the proportion of "poor" people who create costs which they cannot or do not pay for themselves rises significantly, the impact of those passed on costs to the "middle class", "rich" and to businesses becomes burdensome. When some "middle class", "rich" and businesses decide to avoid this burden by moving out of state, it only increases the burden on the remaining "middle class", "rich" and businesses in the state. At some point, the state finds itself with an anemic business base, very few remaining jobs which can provide for "middle class" income levels, and ponderous state/local tax levels which discourage new businesses and new "middle class" people from moving in. At some further point, the state then finds itself in a position where the "recipients" of publicly funded benefits are able to form a coalition voting majority, such that it then becomes virtually impossible for these benefits to be cut significantly.

    New York went down this road some 20 years ago, and has never recovered. California has already passed the point of tax burden, utility cost burden etc. such that many major corporations have already set in motion plans to permanently relocate much of their facilities out of the state (or out of the country), if they have not relocated already.

    While I'm sure that the mainstream entertainment industry will always be located in California, I'm much less sure that Dell Computer's tech services center, Cisco's router assembly plant, or similar "high tech" facilities, will continue to pay high California taxes, high California utilities, and high California white collar wages just because the president loves the California weather and lifestyle. Bankers and stockholders now insist on a return on their investment, and will no longer stand idly by while such "high tech" companies pay very high operating costs in California and at the same time report no profits!

    In regard to past Minority Groups eventually turning into "productive citizens", I'll be the first to admit that this is true. My own forefathers were Irish immigrants. But there have been a few very significant changes between previous immigrant groups and the present. #1 change is that back then the work ethic was driven by options of not providing food, clothing and shelter for themselves and their families if they didn't work. In comparison, today the cash value of the government benefits available in California and New York provides a reverse incentive i.e. unless a "poor" person can earn $10-$12 an hour, going to work at a lower paying job but losing eligibility for government benefits actually provides for a worse lifestyle than not working but collecting the benefits! As long as this financial equation remains true, would be recipients will continue to move into the state, and overburdened "middle class", "rich" and businesses in competitive industries will continue to move out!

    I obviously don't define the California entertainment industry as 'competitive' - at least not yet. However, the moving of such major productions as 'Lord of the Rings' to New Zealand to reduce production costs has now set a major precedent in this arena as well.

    This benefits situation also creates a wide open door for attracting more illegal immigrants, since nobody who is eligible for government benefits wants to work a minimum wage job! Here California is virtually alone among states in offering illegal immigrants driver's licenses, public hospital medical care, public school admission etc. meaning they don't even need to wait until they get a "green card" to start creating extra costs for California taxpayers!

    Your hopes of living the 'American Dream' are very much jeoparidized if you live in California and are not already firmly situated financially. Between state income tax, property tax, hidden subsidies raising your electric and phone bills, sales tax, hidden taxes on gasoline etc. you're already paying out about 25% more of your earnings than residents of other states which don't have the same magnitude of taxes and subsidies. When business competition and the free market finally cause salaries to be more or less equalized, this will make you 25% poorer than if you were doing the same job in another state at the same pay rate, but able to keep more of your own money instead of "voluntarily" handing it over to improve the lifestyle of someone else.

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    This is a 2-Part post, due to the length...

    Ah, Melonie, you never cease to amaze me.
    If I weren’t married, you’d have a serious courtship on your hands.
    If I ever hit the N.Y. area and happen to come into the club you work at, it will be no problem picking you out from the crowd…you’ll be the one on stage who is reading something informative while performing her routine.

    Having said that, let’s move onto this topic, very near and not-so-dear to my heart:

    Where to start?…

    If you don't think of how important illegal immigrants are to our economy. Just think about it this way, are you willing to pay $10 for head of lettuce, $20 for a Mc Donalds Happy Meal, $15 for a basket of strawberries, $50 a plate at Denny's. No- I don't think so, but thats what would happen, if we did deport everybody who came here illegally. Prices would go up drastically for goods and services we take for granted daily.
    While the statement, “Prices would go…up” is fundamentally true, “drastically” is not. Let’s go back to basic Supply-side economics (put down that spit-wad…). The basic tenet of Supply-side economics is that the more you have of something (a supply), the less valuable it is (read: the less money people are willing to pay for it), and vice versa:
    • #2 Ticonderoga pencils…millions of them on the planet (huge supply), cost to buy?: $0.02.

    • Monet painting, or the “Hope” Diamond…Extremely Rare (very small supply) cost to buy?: $XX,000,000.

    Now, to the illegal immigrants. If Joe White Boy (used for the purposes of demonstration only, don’t start flaming me) is picking lettuce for $15.00/day and an illegal immigrant (who has no bargaining power to negotiate a higher wage than what the employer offers the illegal immigrant) is happy to do the same job for $12.00/day…he gets the job. Joe White Boy either has to find another job, or go on the public dole. Meanwhile, more illegal immigrants flood into CA because a family in Mexico who is receiving “a lot” of money (by Mexico standards) from their illegal family member working in CA., is telling the other families they know how much money their family member is making up in CA working illegally. (Since CA is the most populace in the nation with regards to illegal immigrants, we’ll use that for this example), So, many more illegals come into CA. and now they are willing to do the same job as the first batch of illegals, but for $9.00/day…so they get the job, and the original illegal immigrant goes to find under the table work in another field (let’s say, restaurants). The person, who was bussing tables at Coco’s for $5.00/hr, is now out of a job because somebody else will do the same job for $4.00/hr. Then that displaced person either has to find another job, or go on the public dole…and the cycle keeps going.
    So, when people argue that White people wouldn’t do, or don’t want, the jobs that the illegal immigrants are taking, this is true, in part. However, if you take away the huge glut of illegal immigrants (read: Cheap Labor, or Labor Surplus) who will work for no money, companies will be forced to pay a more competitive wage (read: decrease in the labor pool, i.e.: labor is in short supply=higher wages for labor). A more competitive wage will mean that more people will be interested in doing the jobs. A more competitive wage means more tax the government can collect. This also means that the government won’t be paying out as much in subsidies (regardless of skin color), because if the illegals aren’t here to go on the dole, nor are they putting other people out of work (who have to go on the dole), the government is no longer in such a demanding “Government as Provider” role. That role doesn’t vanish, but it becomes a lot less burdensome.

    At some further point, the state then finds itself in a position where the "recipients" of publicly funded benefits are able to form a coalition voting majority, such that it then becomes virtually impossible for these benefits to be cut significantly.
    This is happening right now in CA. I guarantee you, if Bustamante gets elected (which he won’t, but if he did), there will be no putting the horse back in the barn. English will never be required to be spoken by anybody who doesn’t speak it as a first language. The whole “Driver’s License” issue will be just the tip of the iceberg. To give you an idea about how liberal CA is with regards to the rights of illegal immigrants (or for that matter, people who are here legally, yet think America sucks and want to milk it for everything it will give them (for free), yet don’t like it enough to become a citizen), let me tell you a little story I read when I was still living in San Francisco. There was this Asian family that livde in S.F…not a one of them spoke English…not 1…only Cantonese. One night there was an accident at their house and they called 911. Remember, they don’t speak any English, and of course the 911 operator didn’t speak Cantonese. The operator did the best she could (and I think called a translation service (gee wonder who paid for that) after it was decided that nobody at the residence spoke English). After all was said and done, the person in need of medical attention didn’t get it in a timely fashion, via the use of 911. So, what did this family do?….they sued 911 for not having a Cantonese-speaking operator on staff, and on duty, for those needing assistance who only speak Cantonese, and not English….and they won.
    To those on the board who {I]don’t[/I] think that English should be the national language, and that people from other countries should have no obligation to speak the language if they are going to reside in this country, let me ask you a couple of questions.
    • Who do you think paid for that settlement in just that one lawsuit?

    911 didn’t. That settlement came out of higher taxes for all of us, and I’m sure, a higher 911 usage fee on everybody’s phone bill.
    • Assume that there are, currently, about 180 different countries on this planet. Further assume that about 50 of those countries share languages (like England and America obviously both speak English, France, part of Polynesia, Canada, etc. speak French, etc., etc.). So, that would leave us with about 120 different languages on the planet (not including different Patois and/or dialects). Is it more responsible for every American to learn 120 different languages so that the lazy from those countries don’t have to learn 1 language, English?

    Granted, English is a hard language to learn, but so is Russian. But, if I went to Russia and told them that they had to speak English because I wasn’t going to learn Russian, they’d laugh their asses off. Yet here in America, and especially CA., we print the Driver’s Handbook in something like 18 languages…because people from other countries shouldn’t have to be inconvenience to learn the language before they get behind the wheel of an automobile (which probably doesn’t have insurance)….it’s not like the road signs are going to be in English or anything like that. One could argue that at least they are giving the Oregon timber loggers jobs, but for the purpose of cutting down trees to make life easier for people who won’t lift a finger to better themselves or society…great trade-off all the way around. Oh, and BTW, the printing of those handbooks in 18 different languages isn’t free…we eat that cost too. Aren’t we nice.

    In regard to past Minority Groups eventually turning into "productive citizens", I'll be the first to admit that this is true. My own forefathers were Irish immigrants. But there have been a few very significant changes between previous immigrant groups and the present. #1 change is that back then the work ethic was driven by options of not providing food, clothing and shelter for themselves and their families if they didn't work. In comparison, today the cash value of the government benefits available in California and New York provides a reverse incentive i.e. unless a "poor" person can earn $10-$12 an hour, going to work at a lower paying job but losing eligibility for government benefits actually provides for a worse lifestyle than not working but collecting the benefits! As long as this financial equation remains true, would be recipients will continue to move into the state, and overburdened "middle class", "rich" and businesses in competitive industries will continue to move out!
    When I was working as a doorman/concierge at hotel in downtown S.F., a local independent paper ran a story about the monetary benefits of being homeless in S.F. Now, I’m not saying that being homeless is a cakewalk or in any way an easy life, but what this study pointed out was interesting and led people to understand why there were so many able-bodied people panhandling outside stores with “Help Wanted” signs in the windows. The survey polled a lot of the homeless people in the city and calculated that with all of the tourists and all of the “you’re just a poor victim and have absolutely no say in how your life turns out” thinkers giving the homeless money, the average homeless person in S.F. at the time the poll was taken was making $8.36/hr (untaxed, obviously). Why would a homeless person: get some new clothes, shower & shave at a local shelter, go in for a job interview, and work 8+ hours a day for $5.15 (minimum wage), which will get taxed down to roughly $3.00/hour? By sitting on their ass and sticking out their hands, they’re making an extra $5.00/hour (untaxed), for no effort on their part. As Melonie stated in the quote above, there is no incentive for them to work more, to earn less. I kind of like the Japanese system myself…they don’t really do any kind of public assistance, and sponging off your family and friends is considered very rude…only option left…make it happen…get a job and support yourself. If there are no safety nets, you will learn how to fly.

    This benefits situation also creates a wide open door for attracting more illegal immigrants, since nobody who is eligible for government benefits wants to work a minimum wage job! Here California is virtually alone among states in offering illegal immigrants driver's licenses, public hospital medical care, public school admission etc. meaning they don't even need to wait until they get a "green card" to start creating extra costs for California taxpayers!
    This reminds me of a girl that my wife used to work with in S.F. She lived in Mexico and got pregnant. She came across the border with her mother 1 month before having the child and managed to stay in the U.S. long enough to have the child (which the gov’t…I’m sorry, WE picked up the tab for) and my understanding is that if that happens, the child is an instant citizen. That being the case, you can’t very well deport the parents back to Mexico…who will take care of the child. Now, she is a citizen by default because the state doesn’t want the burden of raising another orphan on its hands. To my knowledge, according to what my wife was told by this girl, the girl’s mother immediately went on welfare (having never contributed a dime), and is doing grandmotherly things (read: not working, i.e.: not paying takes to reimburse the government for the handout she got/is getting). This is just one case, too.

    I like Holland’s approach much better. I don’t know how far it has gone since Pim Fortuyn was assassinated last year (I believe he wanted to institute this policy and an illegal immigrant who didn’t like the policy killed him for it). Anyway, it is my understanding that when a non-citizen enters Holland they are told at customs that they have 1 year to learn the language and become a citizen of Holland, or they will be deported immediately. Guess how many people don’t speak Dutch at the end of that year…not many, and not nearly as many as those that don’t speak English after having been in the U.S. for 10 times that amount of time. BTW, unlike the U.S., when another country says they are going to deport you, they do it…no ACLU, no appeals, no stall tactics…you play by the rules or you are out…just the way it should be.

    Presidents Bush and Fox were working on an amnesty scheme which would have "legalized" current illegals and clamped down on further illegal immigration. September 11 put those plans on hold. Frankly, we missed an opportunity. Amnesty would have required registration. Those registrations could have been used to quickly sort through the undesireables and criminals for quick deportations. It would have strengthened the hand of the Mexican government in dealing with illegal immigration from their side of the border as well as eased the restrictions on moving money from the US to Mexico.
    While the first part of the paragraph above is true, the second is somewhat erroneous, IMO. Think about the situation in Mexico…too many people, not enough jobs, lack of education, skyrocketing birth rate, weak infrastructure and an economy that is in the toilet. Now, having said that, do you think that the Mexican government wants to stop illegals from coming to the U.S. The answer is No, and for at least 2 reasons that I can think of. 1) With every person that leaves Mexico, that is one less person to burden the Mexico government in terms of expenditures to take care of that person, and 2) Approximately 95% of the illegal immigrants in CA (and probably the nation), send a majority of their money back to their families in Mexico. This is a lot more money than these individuals would have made had they stayed in Mexico, and now these U.S. funds are being sent back to Mexico to be spent there…which I’m sure the Mexican government secretly loves…and isn’t really eager to give up. In addition, when stories get back to Mexico of all the money that can be made working illegally in CA., and how hard it is to get caught/deported, based on the aforementioned ACLU/Bleeding-Heart Liberals/Stall Tactics, then more illegals come in knowing it will take a while to get them out, if they ever even get caught. This helps out the Mexican government even more….less people on the doles in Mexico, and more U.S. funds coming in from more illegals now working in CA….yeah, I’m sure that the Mexican government is dying to put a stop to that influx of revenue. (Zofia, that was not a barb at you, that was a barb at the politicians who swear up and down that they want to stop this type of thing).

    As I said before, if we don’t start cracking down on this problem of illegal immigration right now, it will soon be a runaway freight train that even James Bond couldn’t stop. To everybody reading this, sit back for a second and think of the next scenario/question: Think about yourself and all of your female friends and even just casual acquaintances (every race of friends you have). Okay, now, how many of the women you know have said, “I don’t think I’m going to have kids. I want a career, or I want to enjoy life. Just because society thinks that I should have a kid because that’s what my body is set up for, doesn’t mean that I should have one, just to have one.”?
    I know plenty of friends who are like, “Hey, I’m having fun traveling with my SO, I’m building my career, I don’t want to have a kid just to have one to appease society, then just ignore them…that’s not fair to anybody.” Now, having said that, and you having thought about your friends and their situations, have you ever heard a Latina or South American woman say, “You know what, I’m not going to have any children.”?…Probably not. Every single Latina that I have ever met personally (either at school or work), is planning on having kids, whereas 50-60% of non-Latina women I know/have met are planning on having kids. Its just part of their culture…to produce large families. That’s what their parents did, and their parents, etc., etc. In this Latin culture I have often witnessed more of the mentality that women are objects, should stay home (i.e.: not fit to work outside the home in any real money earning capacity, just menial labor), and produce kids (as their “job”)…this, coupled with the Catholic Church telling all of their followers that they will go to hell if they use contraception to prevent a pregnancy, is going to be the downfall of not only their homeland, but also the other countries that they take this mentality to. Think about it this way, I you are a Mexican living in Mexico and you just have a low-wage job, there’s barely enough food to feed you and your wife, why would you chance brining in another mouth you have to feed in which case the 3 of you are now not doing as well (nutritionally or monetarily). If you can barely afford to feed 2 people (you and your SO), how are you going to feed 2 adults plus 2,3,4,5,6 kids? At least do the math and figure out the safe times to have sex where the chances of getting pregnant aren’t so high, instead of throwing caution (and your lives) to the wind and continually hearing, “Ooops, we’re pregnant”, “Oops, we’re pregnant”, “Oops, we’re pregnant”. Who wins in the situation? The parents don’t get to live their lives, nor do the children get educations or live above the poverty lines. Since they don’t know any better, they repeat the same scenario with their lives/families/kids.
    Having said all that, think about all of the non-Latino cultures in the U.S. (especially CA, since that was the focus of this thread and that is where this problem of illegal immigrants is the greatest). Most non-Latino cultures have at least some of the women in that culture with the mentality of, “I don’t need to have kids just because society says I should have them”, or “I don’t need a big family like my parent’s had with us…I’m fine with 1-2 children.”
    Now, you take all of the non-Latino families that have the “No kids/1-2 Kids” mentality and you compare it with a culture that frequently sees 3,4,5,6 kids per family (for the aforementioned societal and religious damnation reasons), and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that that later category is going to leapfrog the former very quickly. Now this wouldn’t necessarily be a problem if 1) They abided by the law and came to this country legally, 2) They paid enough taxes to cover themselves and their children (i.e.: not on public assistance of any kind), 3) There families (Mother, Father, etc) didn’t come over the border and immediately go on the dole without ever putting anything into it, 4) They spoke English (i.e.: not burdening the state/companies with having to hire translators (Police, Fire, Paramedics, DMV, Court translators, bi-lingual attorneys provided by the state, 911, Social services, Public Assistance, etc.), because these people don’t want to learn English), and 5) They were educated or at least tried to get an education (something that isn’t always stressed in this culture because there are too many mouths to feed in the family and all the members need to be out earning money instead of educating themselves for a better life down the road).

    (The continuation of this posting is directly below)...
    "A lot of girls go out with me just to further their careers - damn Anthropologists" - Emo Philips

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Points 3 & 4 above lead to a political nightmare for CA’s (and the nation’s future). Let’s consider the “Bandwagon” mentality a lot of people get into (and I mean all races). Take for instance the “OJ” trial. A lot of my well-educated black friends were like, “Oh, hell yeah he killed her.” A lot of other black people I came across who didn’t have much of an education (read: believed what they were told, heard, read in the media, saw on tv, etc.) were just regurgitating what some of their societal figureheads were saying, “OJ didn’t do it, this is just the white man trying to frame the black man.” It was this kind of “We’ve got to stick together as a united Black front, rather than looking at the evidence and forming our own opinions” mentality. The same happens with men and sport teams, they stick by a team for certain reasons, not least of which is acceptance among their other male friends. Well, you apply this theory (and I use that term loosely because it’s closer to fact than theory) to the voting booths with illegals who have minimal education, who want to see their “team” succeed, who see a “Bustamante” or some other Latin-American name on the ballot and think to themselves, “We’ll he’s one of my own…he will fight for me…I may not know anything about his politics, but I know he will fight for his people’s because he is a Latino, he won’t force me to pay higher taxes because of my plight as ‘the downtrodden’, he won’t enforce ‘English as the State Language’ which would force me to learn it, he knows it is part of our culture to have large families so he will make sure that there is plenty of public assistance to help feed our families, he won’t be tough on my family coming here illegally and staying, or about them going on the public dole”,…these people who listen to their more educated political figures who have an angle (what politician or wannabe politician doesn’t), who tells them how to vote, all of their friends are voting for “Bustamante” or other said Latino strictly because s/he is “one of their own”, and with their sheer numbers overshadowing the rest of the population, and the bandwagon mentality (“You’re a Latino, Support our people, Stick together”), it’s a done deal. With a lack of education usually comes a lack of free-thinking….you are told what to do by your boss, by your church, by anybody in “Authority”, and because you haven’t been taught to think for yourself, you do what you are told, assuming that the person telling you to do something must be more intelligent than you (look how far they have made it…further than you…they must be doing something right…so their opinion must be right too), and thus must know what is best for you. They tell you to vote a certain way, well, they must know what is best, so you should probably trust their opinion and do it. Pretty soon, when that group is half the population of the state, and they vote as a collective to see their people in power, all you are going to hear is “Choo Choo” before you get your ass run over. Then, non-Latino politicians, having the strict convictions that they do, will see that a majority of the voters are Latinos, and will change their political views to suit the needs of getting re-elected (so they don’t have to come out into the private sector and actually get a real job in this mess they’ve created…heaven forbid). Then, when you have Latinos running for office, and Non-Latino politicians trying to get those same Latino votes by trying to appease that demographic, do you think that any non-Latino group is going to have any say in how the state is run? This bandwagon mentality, when it comes to voting and electing politicians, is bad for the simple reason that people are electing politicians who will help “Their team (read: Race)”, not “Society at large”, and putting your team’s needs before that of society’s is not what America is about…it’s about society banding together to further American ideals and the ideas that help everybody out and give everybody an equal voice.

    Now, I’m sure that a lot of people will agree with me on most of these points, and I’m sure that there are some who won’t and think that I’m being racist or elitist. I am neither. It is not a color thing, or a “my team is losing” thing. I cherish the ethnic diversity in this country, however don’t want to see it overrun with any one ethnicity (some of you are probably mumbling, “Well, the country is predominantly “White” and you don’t seem to have a problem with that.” “White” people are not a true ethnicity as they are European descendents and hail from many different cultures and countries). I want the people who come to this country for the purpose of enjoying it’s liberties and opportunities, to do it legally, paying homage to those ahead of them that waited their turn, filled out the paperwork, waded through governmental B.S. and went through the process. Doing it illegally is a slap in the face to, and tarnishes the accomplishes of, those who came before them and did it legally, much like affirmative action often backfires on those that it is intended to help. For example, (and I’m just using a Black person as the example because discrimination against Blacks in the work place was the main reason affirmative action came into being)….so, if a Black person grows up in the ghetto, to unfit parents, and has to basically care for his/her siblings (get them fed, clothed, off to school, help them with homework, teach them right from wrong, etc.), gets himself/herself through H.S., puts himself/herself through college, gets a good white-collar job, proceeds through the ranks to V.P. or President of their division through hard work and perseverance…they deserve everything they get., and more power to them. If another Black person applies for a job at that company, doesn’t have the education, experience or work ethic or is in any way less qualified than another applicant (regardless of race), yet they are hired strictly because they are Black, then everybody is going to look at the Black person who is V.P./President and think to themselves, “Are they really good enough to be V.P./President, or did they just get that position because they are Black?”…and that is a total slap in the face to that first Black person who pulled up their proverbial boot-straps and worked hard for their dreams. Same thing for immigrants, those that came here legally and went through all of the paperwork and governmental nightmares to become citizens of this country are basically tarnished by those who think, “Screw that, I’m not going to wait and do it legally…it’s not like I want to be a citizen or anything, I just want to use the U.S. for whatever I can get.”
    With regards to illegally coming to CA. (or the U.S.), if doing things illegally, 1) Won’t get you in trouble (hey it might even get you citizenship as in the case of Davis and Bush), and 2) might afford you the same liberties, public assistance and opportunities as those that (legally) came before you, but without they wait, then why go through the trouble to do it legally and possibly waste all that time, right?

    Let me finish by telling you a quick little humorous thing I witnessed on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno about 6 years ago. Jay does this thing called “Jay Walking” where he goes out to Hollywood & Vine (I think…or maybe somewhere on Melrose) and asks people walking down the street questions that pertain to current events or common knowledge…and most of the people are either stupid and don’t know the answer, or give a fake answer to ham it up. Anyway, Jay approached this guy who was in his late 20’s, couldn’t tell if he was blue collar or white collar, but he looked like he had some form of formal education (at least H.S.). Jay asks him, “What is the nickname of California?”, and without delay the guy replied (in all seriousness), “Upper Mexico?”.

    You want proof of how this illegal immigrant problem can get out of control?…All of the problems in America can be traced back to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian.

    VDJ.
    "A lot of girls go out with me just to further their careers - damn Anthropologists" - Emo Philips

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Vegas_DJ, I'm truly impressed by the depth and breadth of your comments. Whether it's the case of American Indians in the 1500's or New York in the 1980's, it seems that people who "refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

    If there are two minor consolations regarding the California situation versus NY, the first is that you've got a potential candidate like Arnold who has enough "fame" and money to have a serious shot at winning without "owing his soul" to some special interest financing or constituent group. In comparison, NY has Hilary Clinton and Reverend Al Sharpton! The second is that, if California politicians could actually get their act together to the point of getting tough on illegal immigrants, a large percentage of California's "perpetually poor" are in fact illegal thus able to be deported. In contrast, NY's "perpetually poor" Puerto Ricans and blacks are citizens, and cannot be dealt with via a free one way bus ride to the Mexican border. Obviously, a large number of Puerto Ricans and Blacks in NY/NJ have been immensely successful in becoming prosperous taxpaying citizens, well respected members of corporations, successful business owners etc. Also, conditions undeniably exist in NY/NJ where the genuine efforts of may Puerto Ricans and Blacks to improve their situation continue to meet with societal obstacles. However, like "legal" Mexicans in California, Texas etc. there remains a certain percentage of "perpetually poor" whose situation never seems to improve, despite three generations worth of "opportunity" and three generations worth of public benefits.

    If there's one "bright spot" in regard to proving that quasi-legal immigrants still have it in their own power (and in their own motivation) to be "successful" in America, despite societal obstacles, it's the recent wave of Russians/eastern europeans who have come to the NY/NJ area since the breakup of the USSR. Following your formula almost exactly, they have learned english, they're highly motivated to work for a living (even though not all of the jobs might be 100% legal), they provide for themselves, their families and their "team", they make a big effort to educate themselves and especially their children, and they also seem to keep their birthrate under control. As a result, in the past 5 years an increasing number of Russian/eastern european immigrants have earned respected positions in the US corporate world, have invested in their own 100% legal businesses, and have begun paying more in taxes than they consume in government services.

    I attribute this fundamental difference between Russian/eastern european immigrants and other groups with a significant percentage of "perpetually poor" - #1 a true work ethic (anybody who has spent time in NY/NJ clubs has seen this in action by Russian/eastern european dancers), and #2 a serious desire to NEVER to have to go back to their home country permanently (as opposed to Mexican illegals who actually used to voluntarily let themselves be "caught" in order to ride the deportation bus for free to visit relatives in Mexico, then sneak back across the US border the following week!).

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Talk about a voter revolt - big time. Good luck, Arnold!

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    You are just spouting out the same crap that we have been hearing for years, the fact remains that US citizens are being ripped off by people who didn't ask for permission to come here, haven't been checked out, have little education, don't pay their dues unless they have commited ID fraud, populate the prisons, and are putting hospitals out of business. All this for cheap labor. It wasn't that long ago when Americans were doing the jobs that you spoke off and the cost of living was cheaper. Housing is limited and affordable housing is almost impossible to find. The demands of the tax-funded public services to accommidate the needs of the mass amount of illegals who don't speak the language, with low incomes that are flocking to small towns all over the country is a burden on those of us who have no choice but to see more than 25% of our income taken out of their checks by the government. The schools must provide education for their children, the hospitals must provide translators and care for them, the cities must provide foreign language documents, the fire, EMTs, 911 and police must provide spanish speaking employees. All of this and still the country is being told that we aren't providing enough. They deserve driver's licenses, welfare, public housing, healthcare, business loans, and subsidized college education.
    Not only are we told to provide for their needs but we get called names for expecting respect for our language and culture. We get told that we wouldn't be able to live without them. All over the country the citizens of the US are having to sacrifice traditions and their way of life as to not offend new commers to the country who expect to be tolerated and respected in their endeavor to better their lives without the favor being returned. The police are told not to enforce laws when it comes to illegal immigrants who drive illegally, work illegally, cross the border illegally and partake in all that America can give. We are made to feel guilty if criminal alien gets deported and has to leave his american born children behind, like they can't take them home with them, after all, Mexico has dual citizenship rights that their children can assert.
    If I sound a little bit bitter, I am. I don't like being harrassed in spanish, I don't like feeling unwelcome in parts of the city I live in because I don't belong. I don't like seeing gangs of illegals having turf wars, and it offends me that certain people make anti-american statements or when the call Americans racists for expecting our laws to be enforced. The illegal aliens and their avdocates make it sound as though they are doing us a favor by living here and they are sacrificing for our benefit and we should be grateful to them.

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    Default Re: California Revenues and Budget Issues

    Melonie, your analysis of NY needs an update - Puerto Ricans have moved up a rung on the socio-economic ladder. Dominicans have taken their place. A visit to Washington Heights will confirm that.

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