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Thread: Interesting article - nutrition

  1. #1
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Interesting article - nutrition

    The February 2004 issue of Discover magazine has an article "What Does Science Say You Should Eat?" (The issue might not be on the stands yet.)

    It's interesting because it's so solid scientifically. The controlled data goes back to 1976. Blood and nails analysis were done for trace residuals. It's backed up at macro and micro levels. In terms of named diets, the recommendations are most similar, but not identical, to the Mediterranean diet. The study was directed by the Harvard School of Public Health.

    Among the interesting findings:

    The USDA nutrition pyramid sucks.
    Low-fat diets do not produce low-fat people.
    Exercise, even if you just walk for a total of three hours a week.
    Eggs are just fine.

    So what's the recommended diet? From highest priority to lowest:

    Exercise. Consider it part of the diet.
    Whole-grain foods at most meals. (Replace your white flour with whole-wheat flour.)
    Plant oils at most meals. (Replace your margarine, shortening, and lard with plant oils.)
    Fruits and vegetables - two to three times a day.
    Nuts, legumes - one to two times a day.
    Fish, poultry, eggs - zero to two times a day.
    Dairy/calcium supplement - one to two times a day (leafy greens will give you calcium).
    Red meat, butter, white rice, white bread, potatoes, pasta, refined sugar sweets - sparingly.

    Alcohol in moderation.

    Before you get after me for being against the Stone Age diet or the Hunter-Gatherer diet or the Miracle Protein diet or the Dirt diet, please understand that I'm just putting this up because I'm impressed with the apparent science behind it. I'm not a big proponent. I just thought it was interesting.

    Also, I'm withholding my own full judgment. There's some real common-sense stuff. I already knew, thank you, that a Snickers isn't great for me and oat-berry bread is better for me than generic white bread. And the guy at Harvard who's in charge of it all is coming out with his own book about it, which always makes me arch an eyebrow. Don't people with diet books always claim to have the best science? But if you're looking for a diet routine that seems to be based on science first and doesn't seem to be directed to making a billionaire out of some author, this is worth looking at.

  2. #2
    Featured Member Veronika's Avatar
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Well, I have to say that the above is how I feel and look my best. I've taken a bit from some other diets (eating more colorful food like cantaloupe and blueberries as suggested by the Perricone Diet and omitting a few things that probably weren't good for me anyway - like white flour- as in the D'adamo blood type diet).

    It's common sense, really. My trainer hates it because she wants me on a high protein diet but grudgingly admits that since I toned up so fast and lost weight so easily eating this way it must work for me. But she attributes it to my mutant-hood.
    Currently dancing at the Men's Club of Reno, NV
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    veronika, people in the exercise/personal trainer world love to prescribe high-protien diets to everyone, and this is a very dangerous thing to do. There is overwhelming information that the high-protien (expecially animal protien diets) cause and contribute to almost every disease and cancer in the human body. It it true a weight lifter does need more protien, but these people are taking it WAY to far, some eating 300 grams of protien (usually animal) every day. This is a deadly mistake.

    I have read many reports that even the people who ingage in the most extreme sports, training do not need more than 50 grams of protien a day, any excess over-burdens the body and causes premature aging, and a host of other problems.

    Ideally what a weight lifter, or any other athletes should be doing is yes increasing there protien intake, AND increasing their fat intake and carb intake. The ideal balance seems to be 70% carbs, 15% fat, 15% protien by calories.

    So lets look at it like this, a sedentary person may burn 2000 calories a day, and an athlete may burn 4000 calories a day. Both people still need to be in the 70-15-15 range. An athletes protien increase is corrospondant to their caloric intake. Some athletes end up eating 70% protien ! This is so insane.

    The high protien diet craze is coming to an end. People are realizing they can achieve superior results with only a fraction of the protien. Our body runs mainly on sugar, the brain runs exclusively on sugar and oxygen. Our sweet tooth is not an accident. We are designed to eat a lot of sugar. The problem is refined sugar is stripped of all of it's nutrients and gets converted directly to fat. We need a lot of high quality sugar, mainly fruits, berries, and HONEY (raw wild honey contains 92 minerals). Processed sugar (cooked sugar) is useless.

    We do need also need quality fats. The best source of quality fats in the wolrd is by far OLIVES. They also contain excellent protien. The alhletes from ancient greece were known to live on figs, celery and olives. Other sources of fats are avocados, nuts, and oils like olive and hemp. Cocunuts also contain excellent fats and are very hydrating. Flax and flax oil contain high levels of quality fats as well as the very important medium chain fatty acids and ALA (alpha-linolenic acid). 51 percent of our cell membrane is saturated fat and cocunut is an excellent pure source of this. Fat is GOOD. our brain needs fatty acids for proper function. The problem is cooked fats. They become hydrogenated and rancid during heating, their LIPASE is destroyed (fat splitting enzyme killed at 118 degrees) and the become toxic to the body. When the lipase is killed it our bodies cannot break the fats down easily.

    AHH, protien, we do need protien also. But, not that much. Actually let me break in down, we need the AMINO ACIDS, the building blocks of protien, There are 22 amino acids. Scientists used to think there were 12 "essential" amino acids. They called them essential becasue they were not manufactored in the body. Then they changed this number to 10, then 8, then 6. Now some scientists are coming to discover that there are ZERO essential amino acids, the body can produce all of them. Good quality protien is not hard to find. Do you eat tometoes? A tomato gets around 16 percent of it's calories from protien. Lettuce is also a huge source of protien. And if you eat nuts, nuts have a LOT of protien. Quality, raw, unchanged protien. Heat destroys about 50% of the protien available in foods. Back to amino acids. Friuts and vegetables contain all 22 amino acids. A banana alone contains all 22 amino acids by itself. Talk about a complete source of protien. When you eat meat you have to break down the portiens back into amino acids and reconstitute them anyway, why not just get them in their available source. Protien deficiency is so rare there isn't even a medical term for it. The only way you could become protien deficient was if you weren't eating at all, and even then it would take a while. If you are getting enough calories you are getting enough protien. Forget about the protien bars and the protien shakes, they are garbage. There is so much high quality protiens, fats and carbs available in their whole natural state that processed cooked shakesand bars shouldnt even be an option. There is NO nutrient that isn't available or can't be produced by the body by plant foods.

    As a last note I would like to stress the importance of MSM. MSM is a naturally-occuring form of dietary sulfur found in fresh raw foods that are involved in the cycle of rain. MSM is deficient in foods grown in greenhouses or in foods grown through irrigation. MSM is volatile and destroyed by cooking. In the body, MSM softens leathery internal tissues by rebuilding connective tissue with elastic sulfur bonds. This is how MSM lives up to its reputation of building collagen and maintaining healthy joints. This is also why MSM increases flexibility (good for yoga), hastens recovery time from sore muscles, and is excellent for recovery from athletic injuries.


  4. #4
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    >>There is overwhelming information that the high-protien (expecially animal protien diets) cause and contribute to almost every disease and cancer in the human body.

    It's over-the-top statements like this that turn me off of almost every diet regimen I've heard of. (Diseases and/or cancers can also be traced to cigarettes, alcohol, saturated fats, drugs, starches, refined sugars, and the list goes on.)

    That's why I liked this article, because it appeared to generate data from unbiased research done over a long term, and accumulated through strict protocols.


    >>The high protien diet craze is coming to an end.

    Every craze has its cycle.


    >>Protien deficiency is so rare there isn't even a medical term for it.

    Sure there is. Protein deficiency and protein energy deficiency are medical terms. They're easily found in the NIH Web site.


    I'm not arguing about what's the best diet. I'm just saying that inflated claims and statements turn me off. I hope your diet works great for every single person who tries it.


    Discover magazine, February 2004 issue. I'm sure the results will be in other publications, too.


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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Lol, you are funny. I understand you sticking up for your post though......

    It's all love


    Ps, did your scientific study test any subjects who only ate raw plant food ? Have you yourself ever tried a diet of raw plant foods? If not how do you know it's not the way to go ? Science is really nothing more than people playing with numbers and words to formulate scientific truths. No science is ever perfect, especially human diet, there are too many variables, and who knows what caused each reaction. Everybody is different. One person's blood and nail configurations will always be different from the next persons no matter what. What if one got more sunshine, was happier, got laid more ect ? Did they factor these into the results of the best diet. What if one subject had a parasite problem robbing all the minerals from the food he/she ate? Your so called scientific study probably wasn't all that scientific. What is their opinion oh the healthiest person anyway? Looks? I have seed people with AIDS that look beautiful and healthy. Don't get sick? The newspapers are filled with people who have "never been sick a day in their lives" but drop dead or a heart attack at 50. What is your scientists defintion of a healthy person?

  6. #6
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by RYAN link=board=5;threadid=5747;start=msg62280#msg62280 date=1073874701
    Lol, you are funny. I understand you sticking up for your post though......

    Well, yeah. My post said, "Here's an interesting article." I can stick up for that, I guess.

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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    When you say "inflated claims" are you basing these on personal experiences of just preconceived notions ? Because being close-minded no good. If you don't try something for yourself, don't automatically negate it. My body is so pure now that if i eat any cooked food i am a mess for 3 days. If you told me 5 years ago that I would come to a point in my life where I wouldn't be able to eat any cooked foods, I would tell you you're crazy. But, I had an open-mind, I tried out the raw foods, I saw drastic improvements in all aspects of my life and here I am. Life is a crazy thing, the limit is what we are open to experiencing.

  8. #8
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    >>When you say "inflated claims" are you basing these on personal experiences of just preconceived notions ?

    I gave examples in the same posting. There's others, there always are, but those were meant to be illustrative.

    We're just pissing now. Time to move on. I'm glad you're feeling so good.

  9. #9
    Pamela
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Support on both sides.

    Seems we are always being told to be proactive, but do we really know how to do that?

    Accept being different! We live in a world that is mainly reactive. Going proactive means going against the "norm" or flow of things.

    SO, if you decide to leave your buddies to eat your nutritious foods while they eat their fast fried foods, accept that these days you may very well be eating alone.

    Or EXPECT critical or puzzled comments about what you are eating. I have learned this some time ago.

    To each their own~

    Pamela

  10. #10
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Well, this is frustrating.

    I said, "Here's an interesting article, apparently backed by good science."

    Ryan has a posting where he says such silly things as "Almost all diseases and cancers come from protein." I said, "Statements like that turn me off." And they do. I gave examples.

    I haven't ridiculed his diet. I said I hope it works for whoever is on it. I said I'm glad he's feeling well. I was sincere. I wasn't critical (except for exaggerated statements) and I wasn't puzzled.

    Hope that clears it up.

    *Later Edit* Whoa, I see. Ryan posted an edit after I'd responded to his post. I'll catch up.

  11. #11
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    >>Ps, did your scientific study test any subjects who only ate raw plant food ?

    I have no idea. I haven't read a compilation of a 25-plus year study, nor do I intend to.


    >>Have you yourself ever tried a diet of raw plant foods?

    No.


    >>If not how do you know it's not the way to go ?

    I'm not saying it's not the way to go. My grandparents lived long, happy lives on fried food. I'm not saying that's the way to go, either.


    >>Science is really nothing more than people playing with numbers and words to formulate scientific truths.

    Science is a lot more than that.


    >>No science is ever perfect, especially human diet, there are too many variables, and who knows what caused each reaction.

    Nothing human is perfect.


    >>Everybody is different.

    I agree. So your diet might not work for everybody. But I don't know. It sounds like you might be saying that.


    >>One person's blood and nail configurations will always be different from the next persons no matter what.

    Of course. I mentioned that as an example of taking their studies down to the micro level, i.e., checking for trace compounds and elements.


    >>What if one got more sunshine, was happier, got laid more ect ? Did they factor these into the results of the best diet.

    I have no idea. I haven't read a compilation of a 25-plus year study, nor do I intend to.


    >>What if one subject had a parasite problem robbing all the minerals from the food he/she ate?

    I presume, although I don't know, that their epidemiological studies included parasitic infestation.


    >>Your so called scientific study probably wasn't all that scientific.

    Interesting to say about a report from the Harvard School of Public Health that you haven't seen.


    >>What is their opinion oh the healthiest person anyway?

    I have no idea. I haven't read a compilation of a 25-plus year study, nor do I intend to.


    >>Looks? I have seed people with AIDS that look beautiful and healthy. Don't get sick? The newspapers are filled with people who have "never been sick a day in their lives" but drop dead or a heart attack at 50. What is your scientists defintion of a healthy person?

    Physical appearnce wasn't mentioned in the article. I got the impression that their definition of "healthy" was as free of degenerative and disease processes as possible.

    All I did was say the article was interesting and appeared to have good science. I'm not hot to support it or not support it. If you're hot to contest a study you haven't seen, I suggest that you get the study and do so.

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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    I understand most people will never try the raw food diet bacause of fear they may not get enough nutrients, because they like meat too much, bacause the USDA spends hundreds of millions of dollars funding "scientific studies" telling us we need meat and dairy, because they think when you cook something and kill it it has more nurtition than in it's original state, whatever....

    True, most people who improve thier diets will see health improvements. When you stop eating fried foods, candies, cakes, pizza, hamburgers, ect. of course your health will improve. And you will feel much better than before.... And this is where most people stop. This is where the "scientific experiments" stop, this is where the nutritionilists stop, because people are moderatly healthy and are eating more fruits and veggies, and are felling better than they ever did before. Some go vegetarian and cut out meat and dairy and feel great. They lose weitht, their skin clears up, allergies go away, and they are happy.... Peopleare sitll on "comfort" zones and can be veratarian and still eat cooked food, and foods that look and taste like meat if they want like veggie burgers. But there is MORE. Most people are not ready to take the plunge into raw foods because it is such a huge change. They are weary becasue there is no "scientific evidence" to back it up. Well try using your own success as an indicator. Look in nature, every animal in the wolrd thrives on raw foods. We come from apes, well let me tell you they eat only raw foods. HAve a pet? Try feeding your pets raw food and see their health VASTLY improve. Im sorry buy dogs are supposed to eat raw meat, not some cooked concoction in a can. I have read over 300 books on the raw food diet and consider myself to be somewhat an expert on nutrition. I have met hundreds of raw-foodists, been to seminars all over the country and see vibrant health abound. I have heard stories of painless home-births by raw food mothers, I have met people who have cured themselves of every kind of disease, turned grey heai back to color, reversed their need for glasses, got rid of diabetis, cured colon cancer, breast cancer, cured allergies, and the list goes on and on and on. I am just trying to plant a seed in interested peoples' minds on here that there is something else out there. For some, they will constantly negate me, and tell me im on another plane or whatever, that im a stupid crasy asshole. Some people on here however, this makes perfect sence to them. These are the people who I am providing this information for. I want people to be as healthy and happy as they can be. I know the benefits or a raw-food diet. I an merely spreading the word to other truth-seekers, much like the word was spread to me....

    It's all love.

  13. #13
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    You realize, of course, that I haven't criticized your claimed raw food diet - only certain over-the-top statements.

    So does this mean that you're going to try to turn every thread that mentions nutrition into raw food evangelism?

  14. #14
    Pamela
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Ryan one point about our dogs eating raw meat. I used to think it made sense. So i tried it, big problem, lots of growling, ripping of the meat, and obedience seemed to go away for a few hours after their meal.

    I talked with the vet, he said never to feed the dogs raw meat in any form, these animals are not wolves, they are domestic breeds and we don't want these "old" traits coming back out in them.

    The raw meat diet made them want to hunt, and they became nervous. It was a big change, dogs are not wolves, even wolves in homes today are not to be fed raw meat, instinct comes back.

    Also, during the winter season wild dogs not ony consumed other animals, dead or alive. They would take berries and eat twigs to stay alive when hunting was almost impossible.

    Even a carnivore can thrive on a "non meat diet, " we adapt, our bodies take the nutrition out of every source of food it is fed.

    PS, my dogs don't eat canned dog food, they eat out of a bag that is a mixture of meat products and alot of whole grains! I have pitbulls and Shepherds, i have to watch for bloat, which is deadly, and gulping down (as they did) raw meat is a good way of twisting their intestines around.

    Believe me i have researched this. For my animals safety. They are the proper weight, with NO health problems. My Pitbulls are now 10 years old.

    1 Shepherd 9, no health problems.

    Pamela

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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Pam, I agree with ya. If you feed a dog it's proper food, it will act like a real dog. If you feed it poecessed cooked food, it will be weak and open to many of the same diseases humans face because of eating cooked food. The dog is just acting the way it's supposed to act, true we can weaken their instincts and cover up their true traits by feeding them what we feed them, but in all reality the are made to eat raw meat, and yes grasses and berries as well. In natute a dog could get it's berries from the intestines and stomachs of a rabbit while it ate the entrails. And of course your vet said nor to feed the animal raw meat. If cats and dogs ate raw meat, there would be no illness or disease in cats and dogs, and most vets would go out of business. Dogs have only been domesticated for a few thousand years, and for most of that time they we fed raw meat and vegrtable scraps and parts of the animals (stomachs, intestines) that theis owners didn't eat. So saying they are domesticat and therefore should eat our canned or bagged food whic has only been in existence for about 80 years in complete b.s.

    I agree however that the "personality" of the dog will change whan you feed it it's proper diet. His instincts will come back, because is brain will become clear. His vision and hearing will become strong. He will want to hunt and find a mate, and eat rabbits and small game. Basically he will become exactly what he should be, and that truely is the beauty of it all.

    I know many in the raw food community who feed their pets raw meat and fruits/veggies and they are the most amazing and well behaved animals I have ever come across. You can look into the eyes and look an the teeth and see that they are very healthy. No bad breath or stained /plaque on teeth. And the fur is beautiful looking. Dogs are carnivires, they are designed to eat meat. They have all the characteristics of meat eaters. 4 legs, fast-running, a snout, very sharp teeth, claws, black and white vision to easily see movement, short bowels in comparison to lenght of trunk, very high hydrochloric acid in stomach, acidic saliva, acidic blood, acidic urine, strong sence of smell, ect. To deny a dog its biologically designed food so it stays calm and easy to take care of may sit well with some. But not me. A dog is designed to eat raw meat, and some raw fruit and vegrtables. Plain and simple. Feed the dog right and it will be a strong, healthy, disease free dog. Just like if you feed a human right it will be a strong healthy, disease free human.... The laws of nature are simple, eat the food biologically designed to us in it's natural and pure state, and live in harmony with the planet...

  16. #16
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Curious. I tried to do you the courtesy of answering the questions you posed to me. I was hoping you'd answer my one question:

    "So does this mean that you're going to try to turn every thread that mentions nutrition into raw food evangelism?"

  17. #17
    Pamela
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Thanks for the input Ryan. However i can not risk my dogs behaviour with raw meat as a food.
    They are living a long healthy life as far as we can tell with routine checkups.

    It's just in my situation raw meat food for my dogs is not a good idea. Hope you understand. Ps they don't even chew on bones, never rawhide. And the "soup" bones are easily broken up in small slivers that may get inside of the gum area around the tooth.

    All in all...We do good!

    Pamela

  18. #18
    Pamela
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Theres an interesting point Miss George. Wild dogs kill and eat, no time for any disease to set in on the food, whats left is for the "lower" class of animals to pick at, i,e. birds etc. Even the big cat Leopard, who will drag his food up the tree to eat has the parts eaten in the proper time period. Nature does take care of itself!!!

    Pamela

  19. #19
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Well, it's not that I want to flog this limping horse any more, but .....

    Carnivores in the wild often eat meat that has diseases in it. They tend to pick on the weak, young, starving, crippled, and diseased prey, because those are the ones easiest to catch. In the Rockies, many deer are succumbing to CWD (chronic wasting disease). The mountain lions are gulping them down like candy.

    Carnivores also eat spoiled meat often. A leopard will drag prey into a tree and feed off of it for several days. A wolf will bury a half-eaten animal and return to it several days later, dig it up, and snarf it down.

    Most carnivores will also eat carrion, given hunger and the opportunity.

    I wonder if we're brave enough to throw our dogs some slabs of meat carved from a CWD deer, bury a few pounds in the back yard, dig it up a couple days later, and add that to the diet.

    I hope that is taken in the humor it's intended.

  20. #20
    Pamela
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Very well taken. A leopard will scarf down what the body needs now, only to let the animal (what is left) to be taken by others. They don't want others smelling the flesh, so they are fast eaters. They do not hang out in the same tree, they move where the food goes. Exceptions, very hungry old or sick animal...Yes.

    ALOT of animals will make a kill on old or pregnant animals, any animal that looks odd yes. But if the animal taken is diseased, the predator will become ill, and may die at times. This is nature.

    Most animals that just die, and are laying in the open for predators to see/smell are taken by our birds of prey, not (healthy) hunters.

    Many many wild animlas fall prey themselves to eating a diseased meal. They are not immune to disease.

    Wolves have many styles i am sure. But i never heard of one to bury food and come back later, wolves are pack animals, and the leaders eat first, then the others. Now a solitary (sick, or very young outcast) wolf may bury food.

    Anything goes in the animal kingdom!

    Pamela

  21. #21
    Featured Member Veronika's Avatar
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Why oh why does every thread about diet turn into at least a low level argument? Having many opinions, resources and experiences can only open the door for people to find what works best for *them*. Genetics, body chemistry, activity level among many other things are going to play a role in what works for each individual.

    Also, any Dr. will tell you that even the most scientifically based study using humans as subjects is going to have variables and loopholes simply because a human subject selection group is not 100% controllable. There are too many other variables in our environment, diets and individual chemical makeup to come upon concrete conclusions. All we can do is make the best decisions we can based on the best information we can get. It is good to remember that some of that information is how each *individual* feels when experimenting with these different ways of eating.

    Personally, I thank everyone for their helpful information and hope that I can be helpful to someone in turn.

    ~V~
    Currently dancing at the Men's Club of Reno, NV
    under the name of Veronica! I am a 2007 calendar girl for MCR, so message me if you want a calendar!

  22. #22
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    I agree, Veronika.

    For about the 14th time, let me state that I thought it was an interesting article, worth reading. I don't even endorse it, necessarily. If you don't like the thought of it, don't read it. If you want to expand your knowledge base, go ahead. And make up your own mind about it, please. I personally don't care what you eat or drink.

    I thank you, too, for your thoughts on it. I used to think that religion and abortion were discussion topics to stay away from in order to keep your life simple and from devolving into never-ending arguments. I guess I have to add nutrition!

  23. #23
    Pamela
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    I don't think these are arguments. At least in my case, not sure how Jason and Ryan feel. Simply a difference, nothing more. I don't agree with everyone, and kindly like to have a say as well.

    Ryan has his own thing going, i think that is great! Jason is a great poster too, with his own views on certain subjects.

    It's all good.

    Pamela

  24. #24
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    I understand what you're saying, Pam.

    Jason feels that when he posts saying, "Here's an interesting article," and gets a barrage of challenges and challenging questions, punctuated with wildly ridiculous statements, seemingly off the top of the head, that it's pretty argumentative.

    So that's how I feel. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how one can look at the postings and not call it argumentative.

    It doesn't feel "all good." It feels like a "pain in the ass." Ryan hasn't answered if he intends to make every nutrition post a platform for his diet crusade. I think the conclusion is obvious. If so, that's argumentative, too. At least the way I look at it.

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    Default Re:Interesting article - nutrition

    Just a little sidenote on the canine nutrition.

    Dogs are not wild animals. Nor is there any evidence that they are directly related to any wild animals. We have bred dogs for features that have made them act and appear more infant-like. We have bred many breeds with sensitive (and downright volatile) digestive systems.

    That being said, all the dogs I have known on the BARF diet have been noticably healthier than before. Other than added energy, I haven't seen it affect any dogs behavior.

    Lena



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  4. Interesting article on marijuana
    By Farrah_Holiday in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-02-2004, 03:57 PM
  5. interesting article....
    By RYAN in forum Body Business
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-19-2004, 11:46 AM

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