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Thread: Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

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    Default Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    On the few occasions I wind up in strip clubs with required dance prepays, I have the following thoughts and general reaction. "What am I doing here?"
    Up until about five years ago (if you recall) not all gasoline pumps in the U.S. had credit card readers at the pump. Thus the gas station was trusting you to fill your car with gas, and then walk in and pay for it. As a former gas station guy (in college) I can tell you that the more pumps and bigger the station, the more likely the attendant may not notice that a customer drove off without paying.
    I was really surprised when I was filling my rental car at the Exxon station on the drive out of Disney World in Florida and you had to pre pay or put down your credit card before you could buy gas. Same thing with a dance. A prepaid dance in my mind is associated with a high crime area or raises the thought that impled contracts are not honored and I don't want to be doing business in such an area.
    Not only puts the customer on "alert" but makes me wonder about physical safety and any fantasy or thoughts are put immediately on the back burner.
    A prepay does eliminate any ambiguity about price and the contract. Also destroys
    the chance of a tip I think in most instances.
    We could carry this to absurdity in the country. Credit card scanners on shelves, wherein when you take a product off a grocery market shelf, you have to scan your credit card before you put it in your basket. I'll be retiring to Washington Island Wisconsin if this happens. (About the most remote spot you can get in the upper midwest... surrounded by water.)

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I totally understand what you are saying...
    But you have to ask yourself are the clubs you're going to safe top of the line tittie bars ?? Its the difference between going to a fastfood or a nice restaurant..
    I have found that I only run into situations where I have to ask someone for the money up front if either I don't trust the customer to pay me because he is drunk or acting like a jerk.
    I tend to work at nicer clubs and only run into those problems on slow nights, when the clientele is bleek.

    If you find yourself running into dancers who constantly ask you to prepay, then you should consider changing the clubs you go to..
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    For example most Mc Donalds are fairly safe, it's only about once a decade when the entire staff and customers are shot in one. Your example certainly holds true for a nice sit down restuarant. They are trusting you to pay and allowing you to eat first.
    (I wonder if the method of collection is still washing dishes on those who don't pay?)
    At Mickie D's and othe fast food i guess I never thought about it. It's kind of a similtaneous
    exchange for the product isn't it. You pay the money and the Mc Donalds person keeps
    his/her hand on the bag until you fork over the money. The advantage on Mc Donalds is that if you don't pay, they can yank the bag back and resell the big Mac and apple pie.
    I guess as a dancer you can't easily take the product back that you sold.
    I guess telling one guy to pay up front is a customer decision and is OK. Its another thing to have a club in which the policy and standard operating procedure (S.O.P.) is to colelct all dance money upfront on each dance and each customer. Wouldn't you ask your self if thats the type of place you want to be working in?

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays


    I guess as a dancer you can't easily take the product back that you sold.
    I guess telling one guy to pay up front is a customer decision and is OK. Its another thing to have a club in which the policy and standard operating procedure (S.O.P.) is to colelct all dance money upfront on each dance and each customer. Wouldn't you ask your self if thats the type of place you want to be working in?
    Dancers provide a service and like you said its something that can't be taken back. Personally I wouldn't want to work a club where paying for dances is an issue. Its just way too stressful !
    Why does this club have a policy of collecting the money upfront ??
    By the way where is the club located ?
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    This question is running under dancer comments under "What do you think of a customer who...?" I changed it around a bit and added my comments because by the rules of the pink board as a customer I can't cross the line into that forum. To be clear... I've never been asked by a dancer to pay upfront... and never been in a club where that is policy.
    However there are clubs and areas where that is done and is policy. I have however known three dancers fairly well, one being ATF and probably a bit more than ATF. They each have asked a guy to pre pay because of past collection problems or that the guy
    had a bad reputation in the club of not paying.

    I personally would find it insulting and leave. Or as I say, it means I have blundered into a high crime area or dive not knowing what I am doing in an unknonwn area and the same conlcusion. It's time to leave.

    See the dancer forum and respond since you are a dancer.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    clubs don't adopt a pre-pay policy because of a rough crowd- that is a big misconception.
    They do it for LEGAL reasons, its a disclaimer of sorts to the dancer I guess.... Basicaly they can't GET the money for the dancers anymore.
    Big, burly bouncers throwing guys on the sidewalk is not good for business- especialy for an upscale business. :o

    And really the thing about customers who steal dances is that don't do it because they can't afford the dance, its a sick thrill to take it .

    Think about casinios, people are always trying to cheat the house, Wynonna ryder stealing from what was it Barney's....similar deal.
    I've been scamed in all types of clubs from showclubs to dives. You can't tell whose gonna pull it by looking at him at least not all the time.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    We have blundered onto a GREAT discussion topic. If as you say R that certain clubs are doing it because they can't pressure payment, it becomes a dancer business risk decision.
    As a guy, I would interpret it immediately as an insult, and we have just gotten off to a wrong start. And I have an ATF, and two dancers as friends and know the business fairly well. Further in the areas I know clubs, management would
    pressure the guy for payment, if anything to help maintain effective control of the club, because this type of guy is going to cause other trouble in the future.

    Sounds like the legal concerns are in overly legalistic areas of the country
    where disputes are settled by expensive courts rather than the rest of the country when disputes are still settled quickly in matters like this.

    What I've learned. There are legal and risk management reasons to collect up front that I would never have thought of. Still sounds like a dancer decision on an individual basis. Do dancers realize that to a new customer if they demand upfront payment that the relationship is not off to a good start?

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I don't think pre-paying is a good policy in general and I myself would feel quite awkward asking a customer to pay in advance. But I have had a few problems and I know several other dancers who got screwed out of large sums of money because a guy was an asshole. One example was a dancer that was owed over $250, who walked away with $18 from the guy. After that incident, we were told never to do more than 2 dances without asking for money, but I could never bring myself to do that.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I have also had it happen a number of times when a customer is told he can't pet the kitty or whatever, and then they go "well screw that then" and try not to pay for that or the 3 dances you've done all ready :o

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Wow !! You mean I get to respond in 2 places ??!! :o
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Wrong wrong wrong. ALL prepays are based on experience with customers (and in this case I use that term very loosely) who don't pay up as they're supposed to. It has nothing to do with the 'area' being high crime - simply has to do with assholes looking for a free ride and ripping people off in the process. Customers who get offended by it are just too damned sensitive, period. Whether you are having to prepay at the gas station or the strip club, no matter. Why the hell should we automatically assume every person who enters our establishment and takes our product is going to pay for it after the fact? That's alot of damn trust to give to strangers! Simple fact is, the assholes ruin things for the rest, so don't blame those who are just trying to protect themselves from being ripped off, blame those assholes who are doing the ripping off!

    Secondly, assholes exist everywhere, and criminals go everywhere. Your level of safety has little to do with the 'area', unless it is heavily policed / guarded. The closest I've come to getting ripped off as a dancer was always in a 'high-class' establishment, and thank god we had good bouncers present who helped me with the 'criminals' invading our 'nice' place. Btw, EVERY guy who tried that crap with me was a supposed 'respectable' guy. It is very naive to think that crime and assholes only exist in 'certain' places.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Quote Originally Posted by tampopo link=board=1;threadid=5914;start=msg64256#msg64256 date=1074468793
    I don't think pre-paying is a good policy in general and I myself would feel quite awkward asking a customer to pay in advance. But I have had a few problems and I know several other dancers who got screwed out of large sums of money because a guy was an asshole. One example was a dancer that was owed over $250, who walked away with $18 from the guy. After that incident, we were told never to do more than 2 dances without asking for money, but I could never bring myself to do that.
    I used to be shy to ask for money up front too, until I did 5 dances for a guy one night and he gave $5 instead of $100. When I complained he told me I was lucky to get that and I better get away from him. I got the manager and he was kicked out. But I still was cheated out of $95.
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=5914;start=msg64262#msg64262 date=1074470993
    Wrong wrong wrong. ALL prepays are based on experience with customers (and in this case I use that term very loosely) who don't pay up as they're supposed to. It has nothing to do with the 'area' being high crime - simply has to do with assholes looking for a free ride and ripping people off in the process. Customers who get offended by it are just too damned sensitive, period. Whether you are having to prepay at the gas station or the strip club, no matter. Why the hell should we automatically assume every person who enters our establishment and takes our product is going to pay for it after the fact? That's alot of damn trust to give to strangers! Simple fact is, the assholes ruin things for the rest, so don't blame those who are just trying to protect themselves from being ripped off, blame those assholes who are doing the ripping off!

    Secondly, assholes exist everywhere, and criminals go everywhere. Your level of safety has little to do with the 'area', unless it is heavily policed / guarded. The closest I've come to getting ripped off as a dancer was always in a 'high-class' establishment, and thank god we had good bouncers present who helped me with the 'criminals' invading our 'nice' place. Btw, EVERY guy who tried that crap with me was a supposed 'respectable' guy. It is very naive to think that crime and assholes only exist in 'certain' places.
    Right on Brigitte !! That was very nicely put...
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I live in a pretty "classy" suburb of Chicago...and the gas stations here all have pre-pay.

    A couple of weeks ago, a guy got multiple dances from me...and then afterwards, he reaches into his pocket and gives me a $20. WTF? I did 4 dances for this guy!! Then he tells me that he doesn't have any more money...he "promised" that he would be back the next day, but uh, yeah, right! Now, I'll collect after each dance...and if I have any doubts what-so-ever about a guy...then he pays in full up front. Bottom line, end of story.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgette link=board=1;threadid=5914;start=msg64262#msg64262 date=1074470993
    Customers who get offended by it are just too damned sensitive, period. Whether you are having to prepay at the gas station or the strip club, no matter. Why the hell should we automatically assume every person who enters our establishment and takes our product is going to pay for it after the fact?
    You shouldn't make that assumption. Retail stores don't. That's why a term called "inventory shrinkage" exists to account for what they've lost due to shoplifting. In your girls case, "inventory" would be your time, perspiration, and whatever cut of the dance money that your club gets.

    Needless to say, I think an honest customer who is trying to give you business and realizes that he/she MUST pay for services rendered, isn't out of bounds for grumbling about you or your club insisting on upfront payment because of what some other customer(s) did. He/she isn't the one trying to rip you off. Too damned sensitive or not, if a customer doesn't want to do dances (or continue doing dances) because he/she has to prepay, then thats their right, and money not going into your pocket.

    Like I've said many times on this matter, if I've agreed to dances with a gal and she demands prepayment, that's fine. I know that I'll be getting ONE dance and will be obliged to pay for it (perhaps two if the dances are only $10). I'll peel a bill off that wad of twenties in my pocket to explicitly show her that I have plenty of money for more dances. If she wants to make multiple sales, she's going to have to push my buttons correctly. If she keeps insisting on prepayment every song, I'll continue to only pay for that one song only. But if she still can't trust me after that, it is going to become more tedious than fun, and I'm going to want to stop. Paying upfront also means that me giving her a tip is a lot less likely.

    You have to consider the incidence of these rip off customers and the amount of money that you lose to them stealing dances, compared to the amount of money that you lose by not selling dances to customers who are otherwise honest but won't pay up front. Consider which amount is greater.

    A retail store more or less does the same thing. If the costs of security to prevent theft from occuring outweight the costs of the theft itself, a store will simply allow the latter to happen. Thats why you see those security tags placed DVD players, but not on a bag of gummy bears.
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I could see at the end of each dance until you know he is good for the dances.
    Again this has never happened to me that a dancer asks for a dance and then a prepay.
    If I don't know her, I can see her saying that will be $10 please or up here maybe $20.

    If you pay cash for gas round here, you just push pay inside and the pump will roll
    out gasoline without a prepay. The card readers on the pumps may have destroyed
    my example, but alot of people might remember the example I'm trying to give.

    I might take a prepay demand as less of an insult after these discussions, but the norm
    around here is no prepay for dances.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I think an ego check is in line for any guy who is offended by a dancer asking "would you mind paying me first?" Why wouldn't you want to make the girl feel comfortable?
    I don't usually ask for the money upfront, but if I did I wouldn't expect the guy to feel insulted. I think after one dance a guy could tell if he wanted multiples and could pay for a few dances upfront. Sometimes my customers just pay me a lump sum up front and I usually throw in a dance or two for free depending on how much the guy is spending.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Actually, i've always ponied up the cash ahead of time anyway. Whether she asks or not. It just seems, to me, like the thing to do.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    I work in upstate NY and I have never heard of a club that WASN'T prepay. This way, we always get our money, the customer doesn't try to renegotiate the price based on the dance (if he tries to do more than you allow and you refuse to cooperate), and if a guy is truly a pain and has wandering hands, we can get up and leave the dance after an initial warning. No refunds. Also, if a guy wants another dance, we have to get dressed, run out to pay for the next dance and come back, which kills the mood, so guys tend to buy longer dances from the beginning. I can't imagine letting a guy pay me after a dance. What happens if he's really unhappy?

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Pre-pay/post-pay. It's a game of power.. and trust. Nothing more.

    Pre-pay gives the power to the dancer, and forces trust on the customer. Post-pay flips the tables.

    Most customers prefer the post-pay model since the risk factor is lower. The "loss" equation seems more fair since dancer loss is a few minutes of time, customer loss is cold, hard cash. One is tangible, the other intangible. On a slow night or empty club, one is totally superfluous.

    The problem is, you will never see an agreement between dancers/patrons on this issue. Dancers will consider some patrons to be more or less untrustworthy from personal experience. Patrons will consider some dancers more or less untrustworthy from personal experience. Both are justified.

    I'd easily say in pre-pay conditions in my local area, 2 out of 5 times a customer is ripped off. I don't mean mismatched expectations of what's to be performed, but truly ripped off- as in the dancer walks off with the cash with zero delivery. If 15 minutes of VIP are paid for, a dancer makes reference to leaving something important backstage, scuttles off leaving the patron alone in the VIP room and doesnt return until there is less than a minute left. It's either that or an agreement for a 15 minute VIP where no lapdance actually occurs and it's instead a baggering session to upgrade to the 30 minute version, where the customer finally walks out at the 7 minute mark flustered.

    My club preference has been to only visit post-pay strip clubs as the women comfortable in these clubs are generally more customer service oriented. Unfortunately, they experience the opposite effect- which is being stiffed regularly. It's a catch-22 since the rip-off con-artist dancers at the pre-pay clubs are the ones that deserve this treatment, yet the ones that receive this are always the least deserving of such things. I'm also disturbed by the horse-and-carrot technique some patrons use to abuse post-pay and strategize it as some angle to push dancer boundries.

    So no matter how you look at it, it's lose-lose.

    I've found the only way to make this whole thing win-win is to visit exclusively post-pay clubs and pre-pay. It doesnt help the gals from getting stiffed by other customers, but there are quite a few customers that use the same ethic... so they can focus mostly on them, and it identifies those that insist on post-pay as being possible risks and handle them accordingly (i.e. only when every pre-payer has been exhausted!).

    The bottom line is- there are good people and bad people. They come in the form of dancers and patrons. The trick is to develop a system that keeps good->good matchups at the maximum and good->bad matchups minimized. I really cant think of any vehicle in pre-pay clubs to develop such a system other than intuition, but it sickens me to get to my favorite dancers at post-pay clubs who have just been stiffed for 2-3 dances.
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Quote Originally Posted by jennymodel link=board=1;threadid=5914;start=msg65328#msg65328 date=1074755457
    I think an ego check is in line for any guy who is offended by a dancer asking "would you mind paying me first?"
    :yay: Jenny :yay:

    and I gotta wonder if all the customers who are offened by prepay dances refuse to buy gas at pre-pay gas pumps too

    and for the retial store comparision- dancing for a guy and him not paying is just like someone coming up to the register with a $20 food item devouring it right in front of the cashier and then saying with his mouth full that he refuses to pay for it :o

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    This is a good discussion. To answer R's question, in the days of gas prepays I tended to never return to fueling stations that wanted prepayment, assuming there were other choices that were not prepay. I will also favor non prepay clubs, and all the clubs
    here and generally where I go (four states) are all pay after a dance.

    I would not be insulted if a dancer asked for a prepay in a prepay club. I would then acertain after awhile if it is just hat club and why it has the policy, or is it the entire city strip club market area.

    If the market area I would grit my teeth and go along. If just one club in the market I would probably leave that club.

    By the statments on this topic and on ladies only forum, if I ma asked to prepay in a non prepay non prepay market club,
    some thing is amiss. (For the record this has never happened to me.) Like most customers who are properly dressed, look good, and have correct manners I'm afraid that a dancer asking this
    would cause me great pause. There is something wrong with me, or her, the environment, or something which I would attempt to identify before proceeding further, or there is something wrong with the perception which these days came be as damning as actual reality.

    I'm afraid the guys and dancers are going to have to disagree on this issue. You may call it sensitive. I don't care what you call it but I consider it business prudence and I won't do it as a customer. End of story. (Unless the entire market is that way.)

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    Well, for the record...if I've never danced for a customer before...then I will ask him to prepay. If I see that he has more money, then I will be willing to dance more dances and then have him pay at the end. However, if I feel that he is a "scammer", then prepays are required. I am not bitchy about it, but I do explain to the customer that "there seems to have been a slight increase in the number of customers who get dances and don't pay." I don't want them to think that I am singling them out...but, I also want to make sure that I get paid for the work I do.

    As for the inventory shrinkage, the stores that get "robbed" are always compensated. How? By raising their prices...I can just see me walking up to a customer and saying, "The dances are now $40 as the person before you walked out without paying." ???? But, just like the stores that have installed just about every form of anti-theft device available to prevent this, we dancers have a form of "anti-theft" to prevent working for free. If you pay for a VIP and the dancer spends 3/4 of her time primping in the back room, why do you not bring it up to the VIP floor man's attention? Let him know when she leaves, and then clock the time it takes for her to get back. Believe me, if it's a reputable club, then the last thing they want is for "rumors" flying around about how people get ripped in VIP.

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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    >>" If you pay for a VIP and the dancer spends 3/4 of her time primping in the back room, why do you not bring it up to the VIP floor man&#039;s attention?"<<

    This process involves the following-
    1) The complete ruin of what&#039;s left of the entire night as it&#039;s going to take anywhere from 45 minutes to over an hour to go from floor-guy, to floor-guy, to assistant manager, to manager... having to repeat your story to 4-5 people before it actually lands on the appropriate person... IF the appropriate authority is even on site! More often than not, a 45 minute run-around is concluded with their desire to get a phone number and have someone "call" you in a few days.
    2) The absolute BEST result from this will be a PARTIAL refund, along with maybe a free pass for a future visit. This can occur on site, or only after a lengthy, multi-day charade of phone calls with a manager.

    VIP floor managers are just an offshoot of club security. I&#039;d figure a dancer would know this. VERY rarely do they have any form of disciplinary or refund power. They can listen and note complaints, but they don&#039;t have any power to act on them most of the time. This is the case most everywhere.

    From the perspective of a "good" dancer, this may seem a little unusual, but it&#039;s unfortunately the way things are. A "good" dancer when hit with confrontation from a floor manager will usually succumb to the situation and offer a compromise... which sucks because the whole claim is phoney in these cases anyways. A "bad" dancer will vehemently lie and deceive so as to create a conflict and require much more attention to handle.

    I&#039;d really like you to name me one (1) pre-pay club that is set up in such a way to have proper resources and convenience to handle customer complaints in a speedy and acceptable manner- just one. I sure have yet to find it from various visits to upperscale clubs in NY, FL, TX, AZ, WA and local trips to clubs here in CA.

    Luckily, this doesn&#039;t happen to me very often, but I&#039;ve had to accomodate travel guests through the process. I&#039;ve gotten to the point to where I can almost point out the shifty eyed dancers inside of 10 minutes just by watching their club behavior from afar.

    And believe me, if it&#039;s a reputable club, they couldn&#039;t give a rat&#039;s posterior about "rumors" of people getting ripped off in VIP as long as the nightly sales returns are high. Since when did stripclub management somehow, overnight evolve into these moral and ethical people of impeccable standards and fairness? LOL
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

  25. #25
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    Default Re:Why Dance prepays are like gasoline prepays

    VIP&#039;s involve alot of money, and involve a mixture of prepay and non prepay.
    The club fee is essentially a prepay, because they want a credit card upfront.
    While you are in VIP they are running the credit check on your card through the machine to make sure you are good for it. I don&#039;t and won&#039;t sign the credit slip until the end of the night however. I&#039;m sure most customers and many dancers will agree that you don&#039;t
    (as a matter of prudence) sign a credit slip in blank with out knowing the charges.

    The dancer fee is between dancer and customer. After awhile ATF and I agreed that a
    30% factoring fee in which she loses and I lose on club "funny money" was ridiculous.
    However we were there for four or five hours. Carrying that much cash was not practical in the age of airline searches. How do you explain to the TSP why you have it?
    I gave up and wrote checks and she accepted them. Part of the fee was aways in cash for tip outs. She would do three or four hours on the floor with her other customers so she made table dances and stage fee money. I liked to see her on stage, and I realized she couldn&#039;t sit with me for non VIP time even though she offered to. Also because no one can be at club all the time, I wanted her to have her other regulars so she would be with a good group and "safe" when I wasn&#039;t around. Because of her accepting a risk on me she made alot of money because she trusted me. After awhile she liked me. We still exchange notes and talk on the phone even though she doesn&#039;t dance.

    She said, "No dancer can spend this much time with a guy and have both people enjoy it
    if there isn&#039;t some mutual respect and a genuine like for the other person. The time would drag endlessly."

    So if you are worried about one little dance and want to collect up front, I&#039;m probably not
    going to take you to VIP for four hours. Has to be real chemistry to be with someone that long anyway so that hasn&#039;t ever happened with another dancer since for four hours
    a night. Truly had to trust each other in a variety of ways after awhile.
    Actualy didn&#039;t have that much time on the floor to do dances for me because between stage sets she was doing dances for other guys and would sit by me during down periods
    or to rest.

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