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Thread: "Judge not lest ye be judged."

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default "Judge not lest ye be judged."

    No, I’m not a religious fanatic, but this is a good comeback when you are criticized by someone who is. It’s also one of my favorite quotes because it is excellent advice. Unfortunately most of us fail to heed it.

    I’m not really surprised that our society is so judgmental. But I am surprised that the community on this board is. After all, we all share a common interest in an area that is often looked down upon by much of mainstream society. So you’d think that we would all band together and be each other’s biggest supporters. Instead what I see on this board is criticism of those who are somehow different in one way or another.

    Why have we become so judgmental? Because we’ve been taught that it makes us feel superior. We think, “I’m right and he’s wrong, so I’m better than him.” But this “right-better” model hasn’t served us well. This kind of thinking fosters hatred between us. It is how terrorists justify killing. It is what causes most wars. We’d rather be right than be happy.

    Thinking we’re “better” is a value judgement. The trouble is that no two of us have the same values system and thus we’ll never agree who is “better.” We all have different values, rules and standards because we all have different experiences. In truth there is no “better,” there is only “different.”

    And shouldn’t we celebrate differences rather than argue about them? Don’t these differences make life more interesting? Can you imagine a world where we all thought alike? Would you want to live there? Wouldn’t we all be better off if we replaced “I’m right, I’m better than you” with “neither of us is right or wrong, we’re just different” ? If we replaced criticism and hatred with understanding and respect for each other?

    Try this experiment. The next time someone says or does something that would ordinarily annoy you, instead of thinking, “what a jerk,” try thinking, “how can I help this person, what can I learn here.” For example, if you’re a dancer, maybe you patiently and caringly explain to the customer why what he’s asking or doing is inappropriate for you and you offer some alternative suggestion, such as introducing him to another girl who may be more to his liking. Chances are he’s treating you with little respect because he expects the same from you. Show him he’s wrong and maybe he’ll become a different person. Do this consistently for a month, I guarantee it’ll change your life.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    I'm sorry folks but my punctuation in the above seems to have been converted into # signs and numbers. Must be the cut and paste thing. Hope you can decipher it because I 'd really love to hear some comments. This is a subject I care deeply about. Thanks.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  3. #3
    Pamela
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    I like this therory, but being human and not perfect, we will always judge others, by hair, body type car they drive, you name it. I think judging is a good thing, not bad.

    At times my judging of others has kept me out of trouble. Call it what you like, but it's still judging.

    The key is to not be over judgmental. I do not want to go as far as laughing at someone, or poking fun at someone when i am with my friends. That hurts others feelings.

    I have tried numerous ways of not being judgmental, i always fall back to who i am. At least keeping my thoughts (some extreme) to myself, i am the only one who knows.

    I judge people all day long at work, by clothing, shoes etc. my key to this is not let it be known, and forget about it shortly afterwards.

    Wish i had judgment as good as my animals had!! I am often wrong.

    Pamela

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Of course we all make judgments all day long, it's only human. The trick is to be flexible about them and realize that they are baed on very limited information and may be very wrong. And to not allow the initial judgment affect the way we treat someone. Often when we instinctively don't like someone, it's because they remind us of some quality of our own that we dislike and try to deny. We can learn a great deal from people like that.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    Veteran Member SaraNLA's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    I'd say it's good to keep an open mind. You do have to assess people in life, but the trick is not to do it too quickly.

    Yeah, I wish people didn't judge dancers so harshly. I'm at parties sometimes with people who don't know I dance and it's secretly funny to me when the topic of strip clubs comes up. But I'll admit, the hardest part about the job (for me) is dealing with the stigma that comes with it.

    Unfortunately a lot of people can't think for themselves or really get excited enough about anything to understand the desire to do something DIFFERENT so they have to follow and judge things by the "norm" (whatever that is!).
    Let your indulgence set me free. - Shakespeare

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Ooooh FONDL, you have a point, and I share your thoughts on the subject often when reading posts here. My thoughts:

    1. People are hypocrites and will say one thing versus do another. Its the confirmed equal opportunity employer that would never actually hire a minority ...Or, more likely, the responses people give when being tested for "ethics." This was a big source of piss for me in business school. Post-Enron, we had to have an ethics component in each course. So, if you knew a coworker had stolen office supplies, would you turn them in, etc......Everyone always took the high and mighty, but that leaves no room for critical analysis about decision making...

    We are an almalgamation of what our peers, family, and community want us to be (hehehe, basic sociological theory), and that is our "self". Individuality and free will, while given great importance, are mere illusions, albeit useful illusions....in a nutshell, these judgemental posters are basically behaving like expected to behave by predominant society, and not opening their minds to different perspective...

    2. I may be wrong, but I have seen a lot of judgemental posts by new, young dancers and by women who have not begun to dance yet, or are not strippers at all. Possibly, these ladies are still have an unreasonable idealogy regarding what our profession entails. Wannabes often fall in love with the pole dancing and glamour...yet that is a minor component about the job unless you are a showgirl or burlesque girl....once they get ripped off, spooged upon, and tongue raped enough times, maybe their opinion will change.... :twak:

    3. A big source of debate and moral posturing here is about "extras" and escorting. Extras are dangerous because of the legal implications...but I would bet money that almost every seasoned dancer in here has been in at least one situation that has gotten out of control in a club. In my case, I have stopped it, but lines get crossed...all time time....it is something that strippers fear because it is so close to us.

    Attempts at being pressured to do extras at the club are a far worse feeling than actually arranging and escorting gig because in the club there is so much pressure and fear of getting caught by peers, management, and law. When you arrange for an escorting gig, you know what is going to happen. When each patron whips it out unexpectedly, its really demoralizing because we know that we are going to get in trouble, beaten, possibly arrested if caught. We are afraid of this for good reason, thus what we fear
    the most, we attack.....

    Oh, and people are afraid of sex and sexuality..is it religious influence, or the over-sexed media, I dunno? But I do believe that stripper are a form of sex worker, geisha, hostess, etc....and that we cannot stigmatize prostitutes for what they do...after all, we are considered hoes already, and marginalizing each other just weakens a very relevant group of women worldwide....

    People are not going to stop being hypocrites because we lie to ourselves as defense mechanism. Some individuals have more empathy than others. The horde mentality will usually win.....Nihilistic enough for you all..Thanks for letting me share...

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    FONDLE, that's a very nice dissertation but unfortunately it isn't that easy to impliment it.
    First of all, we all judge. Whether or not we disclose it, we still do. We have to. Our survival depends upon it. If we are walking along and we come upon a lizard and a lion, we'd better be able to judge the difference between the two and act appropriately.
    Here's the way the mind works. We come upon an experience of some sort. Say we eat a piece of candy. We like it. In our minds we form a picture of the candy and associate a "good" response to it. We come upon a skunk that sprays us. We don't like the irritation. We associate "bad" with the mental picture of the skunk. This is what we do all our lives. Make value associations with experiences . We form an entire model of the world in our minds. When we see a skunk ,we automaticly sense "bad".
    So everyone judges everyone else based upon their mental model of the world. The problem arises when someone introduces an experience that we have not made an association with yet.
    Depending on how close it comes to candy or skunk will determine our reaction.
    When the Spaniards went to Mexico they introduced new concepts to the Indians. A man on horseback was a four legged two armed creature. A cannon was a log that sounded of thunder. The Indians were not stupid. They just did not have any experiences to associate the new phenomena with. They knew what logs were and they knew what thunder was. They just didn't know what explosives and iron were.
    The reason people resist accepting new ideas is because their entire security may rest on their mental model of the world. It's like you telling them ,everything you know is wrong. To avoid losing their credibility they will defend their beliefs whether or not they can support it.
    Being that we've all developed independently we all hold to what we know as being true to us. To question our values requires us to look at ourselves which can be a scarry proposition. Not everyone has the courage to rock the boat they have built their lives upon.

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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    FONDL I thought you were swearing, but like another strip board, the robot search entine won't let you do that so you use non alpha numeric characters instead. Basically I started my adult life at the age of 18 as a radio reporter but in the field in a very liberal news oriented town, in the era where radio news was still important, and tended to be the night watchman of small cities. Thus I tend to be non judgemental about people views when they don't coincide with mine. I look for facts. For instance I tend to post on
    club organization, and operations and then in the stock market discussion here.
    I agree with Melonie and pretty much disagree with Montythe geek. However the
    geek is dangerous to argue with because he does have facts and thus I respect his opinions even if 50% of his conclusions on the data are wrong. (This also means that 50% of the time he is right.) I know whatever I say that Bridgette will disagree with me, except that we don't interact too often because I hang around with the stock market and
    investor section of this forum.. which is fine.

    Its really a big country, and I've gotten to travel around alot in it while I worked for a large corporation doing large building values, market analysis, and investments for over 20 years. Thus people who come from different areas and places have different life experiences. Also strip clubs are highly different and each one is a world onto itself especially the big ones. With the amount of drame that employees and management deal with every day its a wonder they function at all sometimes. One thing about Bridgette, she cites her reasoning for her concludsions and I respect that also.

    What could be more emotional than a place where men drink and see naked women?
    I mean ... on a nightly basis the raw base instincts of men are exposed and sometimes the women. Then the club closes for the night... and everybody has to go back to their places in the real society and go home. The next day it all starts over again.
    Bound to be confusion, misinterpretations, and a whole lot of mixed up signals of all sorts.

  9. #9
    God/dess lestat1's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    I hate judgemental people, they're all ignorant!

    (sorry, couldn't resist)

    One other problem with not being judgemental is to how far do we extend it? Keep an open mind about Hitler, Saddam, Osama? Ok, those are extreme, but what about school shootings. Evil person, or victim who got bullied too much and snapped? I say go ahead and make judgements but always be willing to change your mind as more information comes along.

    -lestat1
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Lestat1, I was wondering how long it would take someone to bring up the Hitler extreme. It's a valid point. Some people would take the stand that there is no right and wrong, that everything is relative. While I don't totally agree with that I think there is some validity to it. My argument would be that society has to set some limits in order to maintain civility and to ensure our survival, thus there must be an agreed upon right and wrong. The problem arises when we view it as black and white rather than as shades of grey. My view of the sex industry of which we are all a part is that it is a continuum maybe starting with advertising that utilizes bidini-clad models to the opposite extreme of streetwalkers or maybe worse. We would each place stripping, lap dancing, extras etc. at different places on this continuum based on our own values. Thus I think we should all try to not be too critical of each other.

    Katrine makes some very good points. I'm looking at it from a purely moral point of view. When you add the legal implications things change. I especially like her point about hypocrites. In my opinion there's way to many of those in our society, but that goes along with being judgmental.

    We all have a tendency to make judgments all the time. The question is do we carefully examine them before acting on them? Are we willing to keep an open mind?
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  11. #11
    Pamela
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    I usually make my judgment on a person within the first say....15 seconds. It can be how loud they speak, dress or the smell of alcholol on their breath. I thank god every day for my judgment, because i was put in many situations where i smelled alcholol on a persons breath and said to myself " i don't care for this person at this point, he is probably not buzzed but drunk, arrogant and i need to take a few steps back, i did (i passed judgemant tho) and upon stepping back a couple feet, he spit at me on the job. (hospital)

    Judgment is not a bad thing, i just don't like making fun of or laughing at one because they may appear " different" than me. I keep most of my judgments to myself.

    THere has been at times i see very odd looking people (dressed) and will point them out to my friends, i admit to it.

    THis is something we as humans can never stop, i look at it as intuition at times. That gut feeling while i am passing judgment.

    I honestly believe we were given this to actually help us survive, but many times alot of us misuse it.

    My thoughts,

    Pamela

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    Featured Member polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Hah. Yeah, I'm with Pamela on this one. The first few moments of meeting someone, you can really get an intuitive sense of what kind of character they are. I think this "intuition" is crucial to adapt to a pinpoint accuracy for a stripper.

    I personally believe FONDL's and Katrine's posts go hand in hand. Yes, we all strive to not be judgemental, but hypocrisy is also a very core feature of most personality types.

    Our lives are amassed with making judgements. What we eat, the clothes we wear, the cologne/perfume we choose, the friends we keep, the way we answer questions, the way we see our peers. Our experiences form our perceptions (back to Katrines sociological theory) and for the most part, serve us well.

    Learning to be open minded is simply self-awareness of the division between good judgement and prejudice. Good judgement rewards us daily, so it's very easy to totally miss or discard cases of prejudice as simply another case of good judgement. You'll notice some of the most successful dancers are those that have learned the difference- such as approaching the long haired, young guy in jeans and sneakers who arrived in a primered VW bus (who in this case, has a pocket full of $100's in cash) versus the 3-piece tailored suit guy that arrived in a limo (that has maybe $80 of funny money off an overdrawn CC.)

    As far as peer judgement, it's alive and well. It's always dissappointing to see dancers throwing stones at each other or innuendo of ethic/morality levels when everyone lives at some level of comfort, but others may exist at totally different levels. It always seems stones are thrown upwards from the morality ladder with little acknowledgement that there are always those a few steps lower from the thrower that can do the same. As Katrine put it, it's usually dancers newer to the biz and eventually wears off in time if they get more exposure and an understanding.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Pamela and Polecat, thanks for the very well thought out responses. I must agree that I make judments quickly too and many times we have to to be effective in life. For example, I used to interview and hire people regularly, and I usually had my mind made up within the first few minutes of the interview. But I always tried to be fair by giving them more time to convince me to change my mind.

    But that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking more about our values, standards and rules of behavior, especially rules. Every one of us has different rules that we live by. All I'm saying is that we should be conscious that everyone's rules are different and we shouldn't expect everyone else to live by our rules. To take a very simple example, I bet my rules of where it is OK to use a cell phone are very different from yours. I bet we could all argue about it forever and we'd still think our own rules were right and everyone else was wrong. If you're an intelligent person, your own values, standards and rules will change as you gain more life experiences. We all need to lighten up and try to understand the other's point of view instead of being critical. Just because their rules are different doesn't make them wrong. Instead of criticising, let's try harder to understand the other point of view. We might even learn something.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    This is a very interesting post. I thought it was going to be about someone talking about how the religious right was bothering their favorite club, but it is a good, deep discusion

    Anyhow, I read the posts, and have thought about this a little bit. I'm not educated or even cliam to be smart, but it seems to me if we no longer judge each other wouldn't we be thrust into anarchy? Isn't that a little bit about what the author of "Lord of the flies", was getting at? Of course the charaters in that story did judge, but they had little societial basis for right and wrong, and thus chaos ensued.

    If we had no fear of being ostrisized for what is considered wrong behavior, wouldn't at least some portion of the population take it to the extreme and "rape and pillage" without fear of reprecussions?

    So I think that we must judge each other because we are emotional beings. This judging causes you and I to say that it is wrong to rape another man's wife (or your own for that matter), to shoplift, it is wrong to abuse your children etc. Because we have judged each other as worthy of the best treatment possible by society, we judge those who would do harm.

    Is the sex trade harmful? To some extent, yes. There are women who have been forced into postitution or into being a stripper all over the world. There are underage girls stripping w/ the help of fake ID's, and are being forced to do so by their controlling boyfriends, or family members. There are men who act out harmful fanatasies because the line between fanatasies and reality blur for them.

    Although living in a peaceful, non judging society would be wonderful, I think that still remains in the realm of the afterlife. Maybe the whole world will convert to Buddihism in ten years and there would be no reason to have the phrase "Judge not lest ye be judged", but I don't think that very likely, as nice as it would be.

    Okay, I'm off my soapbox now

    XOXO ParisLove


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    ParisLove, you are underestimating your intelligence, that was a very thoughtful response. Let me answer by pointing out the distinction between morals and laws. Governments enact laws to limit such socially undesirable behaviors that you mention. That's the main role of governemtn, to bring order and limit chaos. Yet most of us live our lives according to our own morals, values and rules. Where those are reasonable consistnet with prevailing laws, we get along OK. Obviously for a few members of society this doesn't work out very well.

    But also note that laws differ greatly from one country to another. Obviously countries don't always agree on what activities are socially undesirable (eg. prostitution.)

    But again this is getting somwhat off the mark. I'm not really talking about major stuff like rape and murder, I'm talking about the little stuff that often irritates us so much. To go back to my earlier example, if a person at a table near me in a restaurant is talking on a cel phone I immediately think, what an A-hole, because he's violating one of my personal rules. Yet that might not bother you at all. These are the kinds of rules where I think we all need to lighten up a bit and be less judgmental. If you go through life getting upset every time you see someone violating one of your rules, you're going to be upset a lot. All it does is make you unhappy.

    Read some of the negative posts on this board and you see this all the time, people bitching about what someone else did that was considered really rude but probably wasn't meant that way at all. My point is, speaking of strippers and customers, should't we all try to get along better, try harder to understand each others point of view? Seems to me that what we have in common is far greater than our differences.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  16. #16
    Pamela
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Hmmm FONDL while i agree with what you say, we would have to live in a perfect world with perfect people. We are not there.

    A difference of opinion is how most of us learn to open our eyes and ears to other who has a different point of view.

    I kindly disagree, we have many many differences, and not much in common as people.

    Sorry and i can't get these words out right, because i keep having to reboot.

    Pamela

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    Veteran Member vanilla_dog's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    It seems to me that people sometimes have such open minds their brains fall out. I understand why people judge dancers. We give affection to men who may not deserve it. We tolerate men who society finds intolerable. We cater to the sexual appetites of men whose backgrounds we do not know.

    We don't know if they are spending their kids child support. We don't know if they just raped a nun. If they got $20 they can buy far more than they deserve.

    I judge all the time and I don't care if others judge me. I'm a pretty decent person. Many of my customers are not. They deserve to be judged and shamed and possibly executed.

    I don't think I will ever get along with a customer who thinks Thai sex clubs are fantastic. Or who try to convince me that my time isnt worth $400 an hour unless I'm I fuck. Or who constantly pressure, heckle and nag about extras when I clearly dont want to.

    These guys are pigs. Sorry. They disgust me and I have no respect for them and I never will. And that is that.
    You get what you put up with

  18. #18
    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Seems to me there are two themes that appear regularly in these discussions: (1) customers are pigs, (2) business is lousey. Gee, think there might be a connection? Personally I don't go to clubs where the dancers act like they're better than me. Try being less judgmental, try understanding the customer's point of view, and maybe business will improve. Or would you rather be right than be happy?
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

  19. #19
    Veteran Member vanilla_dog's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Do you dispute that some of our customers are disgusting? How many lap dances have you given? How many times have you been propositioned to give a blow job or to take it in the ass?

    You really must abandon this silly notion you have that business is bad because strippers on stripperweb are venting their opinions. This is not the strip club. You are not paying us to tell you what you want to hear.
    You get what you put up with

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Rayleen's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    don't ya just love it when men come here trying to tell us that they know the business better than us




  21. #21
    Veteran Member ChristyWild's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Well, my viewpoint on this topic is a lil odd, since I went to a Christian college for 2 1/2 years. I apologize in advance for getting biblical on you guys here, but I have to put my two cents in about Fondle's original post. In the original Greek, the "judge no" verse is actually only part of the original sentence. The entire sentence, in the Greek, is as follows: "Judge not, les ye be judged. For with what judgement you judge others, you will also be judged. " So, for all those people who try to say the Bible says not to judge are incorrect; it's actually cautioning that when you judge, understand that you will be judged by the same yardstick.
    Okay, off my soapbox now.
    Age is only important when it comes to wine and whiskey!



  22. #22
    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:"Judge not lest ye be judged."

    Thanks, Christy, I never knew that. Makes sense to me. You're welcome to get on your soapbox anytime.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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