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Thread: AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

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    Default AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    God, I love this.

    Conservative groups, especially religious groups, make promises ("We'll send the results to capitol hill"), then break them ("Oh shit, 68% of people support either Gay Marriage or Civil unions! Under the rug, under the rug!"). Isn't it a sin to lie?

    If it wasn't so bigoted and sad, it would be hysterically funny. And, natch', they blame the Homosexual activist groups. Hey, I voted Marriage including the use of the word, and I don't belong to any Homosexual activist group. Hell I got the link HERE! The most heterosexual place a guy can visit on the whole goddamned internet!

    At any rate, here's the story...




    Conservative Group Quietly Drops Plans for Same-Sex Marriage Poll
    by Christopher Curtis

    SUMMARY: The conservative American Family Association will not take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority of respondents favored same-sex marriage.

    The conservative American Family Association (AFA) said it will not take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority of respondents favored same-sex marriage, according to a Thursday report in Wired News.

    The AFA posted the poll online in December with a stated intention to forward the results to Congress as evidence of U.S. opposition to same-sex marriage. Respondents could select one of these three choices:


    " I favor legalization of homosexual marriage."

    "I favor a 'civil union' with the full benefits of marriage except for the name."

    "I oppose legalization of homosexual marriage and 'civil unions.'"

    But as of press time, the numbers support same-sex unions: Sixty percent favored same-sex marriage and 8 percent favored civil unions, leaving just 32 percent opposed.

    AFA representative Buddy Smith complained to Wired News: "It just so happens that homosexual activist groups around the country got a hold of the poll -- it was forwarded to them -- and they decided to have a little fun, and turn their organizations around the country (on to) the poll to try to cause it to represent something other than what we wanted it to. And so far, they succeeded with that."

    Matt Foreman, the Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce was dumbfounded. "The abject hypocrisy of these people never ceases to amaze me," he exclaimed.

    "They constantly manipulate facts, and when things don't work out as they want, they run to mama and whine."

    On Jan. 6, the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network discussed the AFA poll with expert Bob Witeck, who said that since it was not a scientific survey, its results could not be considered meaningful data. According to Witeck, legitimate polls show support for gay marriage somewhere between 40 to 50 percent -- and growing.

    Copyright 2004 gay.com/planetout.com

    Here's a link to the actual page...







    Here's what gets me, they insist that God gave Humankind free will. The will to fuck up and choose things that are against what the bible says (or at least their interpretation of it). Then we have all these whacko's who say they follow the bible who take the exact opposite position! "No, you can't choose that", they say. How is it that someone can 'take up the cross and follow' and yet fundamentally dissagree with their own GOD?!?!?!?!

    It's all very confusing.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Madcap.....

    Wow, the gay marriage issue is a hot one these days. My sister and I have been batting this one about for days. I applaud you for coming right out and saying that you support a person’s right to choose. I also support gay marriages and all the recognition that is given to same sex marriages, without belonging to an activist group.>>Here's what gets me, they insist that God gave Humankind free will. The will to fuck up and choose things that are against what the bible says (or at least their interpretation of it). Then we have all these whacko's who say they follow the bible who take the exact opposite position! "No, you can't choose that", they say. How is it that someone can 'take up the cross and follow' and yet fundamentally dissagree with their own GOD?!?!?!?!

    It&#039;s all very confusing.<<

    I could post pages about this, but lets just leave it at I agree. All the hypocrisy is what has driven me away from mainstream religion.....and politics
    You don&#039;t have to attend every argument you&#039;re invited to.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Sadly their tactics are not new and pretty much nothing surprises me !
    My new love...is me !

    Even the greatest authority does not, ultimately, know you as you know yourself.
    Jhuka

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    To prove once again that I&#039;m a contrarian, I think Madcap&#039;s attacks on the religious right are off base. First of all, suppressing or discrediting research that disagrees with one&#039;s point of view is standard practice for organizations of all political persuasions. To single out and criticize AFA for doing the same thing that all political organizations do is in itself hypocrisy.

    Secondly, there are valid non-religious arguments for opposing giving gay marriages the same legal status as heterosexual marriage. Many nonreligious people including myself are opposed to doing so. And many gay people are very religious. This issue isn&#039;t only about religion.

    I don&#039;t agree with AFA on many things. But I do support their right to argue their point of view, as should anyone who supports free speech. If you disagree with them, argue with their point of view, but don&#039;t attack them personally. They have the same right to their views as anyone else.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    Veteran Member winter2003's Avatar
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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    FONDL, what are the non-religious arguments for opposing gay marriages anyway? I have heard very little on this subject...for i am all for anyone&#039;s happiness, including same sex unions/marriage. Just curious...

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    I am personally delighted that the gay marriage poll took a turn that the AFA wasn&#039;t expecting. I&#039;m all for gay marriage. The main reason gay marriage is banned is for religious reasons and in a country that is supposed to separate church and state, I feel that banning gay marriage is unconstitutional as well as discriminatory. There was a time when blacks weren&#039;t allowed to get married either. NO ONE in this country should be stopped from getting married as long as both are consenting adults. Marriage is a union of love between two people and saying that one man&#039;s love for another is not valid and can not be celebrated in the same way that a male/female love is celebrated is WRONG.

    *Stepping off the soapbox now*

    Sorry, subjects of inequality really piss me off
    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

    "It's just a matter of people having low self esteem and being way too easily offended." -Random Guy on a Internet Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    Ya'll bitches need to calm down. Cerously.
    In other words: Boo-motherfucking-hoo

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Remember..."Figures don&#039;t lie, but liars figure."

    Of course they will throw out a poll that doesn&#039;t back up what they want the public to hear. That&#039;s fine. They are under no obligation to use the poll in their presentation. That being said, I think their excuse for why it turned out the way it did is total crap.

    I was watching the Today show this morning and Pat Buchanan was on basically saying how Massachusetts was evil for allowing gay marriages and the interviewer says something along the lines of "Well, you represent the views of only a portion of the country" and Pat says "A lot of people hold these same views." There was a second guest on at the same time, who represented the pro-gay marriage side and he chimes in "Yeah, in 2000, a while five hundred thousand of them." I couldn&#039;t help but chuckle.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    FONDL,

    I&#039;ll make sure and be a thorn in the side of the religious right every chance I get. Thanks for leting me know what I was saying was a good enough thorn.

    They need it.

    Bud, you will never meet an Anostic that knows the babble (oops, bible) better than me. God himself gives humankind a choice, why will not the bible thumpers give humankind the same choice?

    I can actually quote scripture. Any fundie that chooses to argue with me about the bible has chosen the wrong person to argue with.



    Fondl, One question... DID GOD GIVE HUMANKIND FREE WILL or not?!?!?!

    If so, who is any human to undermine god? They know better than God i&#039;d love to hear it.

    Who the fuck is any man or woman to say that God is against something when God himself IN THE BIBLE says that they need to shut the fuck up.

    Oh. And as far as Paul the ranting Lunatic goes.... Who do you love? Jesus who was a friend to women and answerd their questions, or Paul who told women to shut the fuck up in church and ask their husbands if they didn&#039;t understand something?


    (I can support everything i posted with scripture)

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    It boils down to this question...

    Did God give humans free will or did he not?

    (this is in the bible, look the answer up)




    If no, then the religious right has something to say...


    But...


    If Humans have free will... The religious right needs to do some repenting. Because they act contrary to their own God. He says free will. What part of FREE will is hard to &#039;get?&#039;


    (Once again, the answer is in the bible)

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

    1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."


    ^^^^^^^^^^

    Paul (The only place you find a condemnation of Homosexuality outside of Leviticus, and the ONLY place you find a reference to lesbianism in the entire bbile).

    You really wanna worship this guy? I dig Jesus, but Paul was a ranting lunatic.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    I like you MadCap, we think alike .
    It kills me when religious folks point to Leviticus in the OT and say, "See, homosexuality is a sin." I then point out that in those same scriptures of the OT, it says you can not eat shellfish and you can not wear blended fibers. Then they say, "Oh..... well that&#039;s the OLD testament, JESUS didn&#039;t say that." Jesus never said anything about gays either did he? How can they justify their decision to obey some scriptures but disregard others as they see fit ???? I though it was all or nothing. And another thing, according to the bible, gluttony is also a sin. Does that mean that all fat Christians are going to hell? Just a thought.
    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

    "It's just a matter of people having low self esteem and being way too easily offended." -Random Guy on a Internet Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    Ya'll bitches need to calm down. Cerously.
    In other words: Boo-motherfucking-hoo

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Winter, the most obvious non-religious argument against legally recognizing gay marriage is the cost involved. The direct costs are likely to be large. Every benefit now enjoyed by spouses (eg. social security, pensions, health care) would by law be extended to a new group of people, which would greatly increase their costs. Many companies are already cutting back on this stuff, a new group of beneficiaries would accelerate that trend. In addition, the indirect costs would be even larger. Every law that has anything whatsoever to do with marriage and spouses would have to be revised, with all the attendant law suits and court challenges. And who knows what the courts would shove down our throats, given their tendency to ignore legislative intent and to make their own laws. Recognizing gay marriages would create another huge bonanza for lawyers, and I&#039;m opposed to anything that creates another bonanza for lawyers. I don&#039;t think the benefits of gay marriage to society are worth the costs.
    Friends Of Naked Dancing Ladies (FONDL)

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    i am so glad that their are people with my thoughts on all this! madcap and miss luscious....thank you! i have heard for two years now that i am going to hell b/c i defend gay rights...and that is from my SO&#039;s mother! imagine dating a guy for over two years and never being able to talk about religion!

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    i am glad to hear all of this. its nice to see so many people in support of it. imo a body is only a body, how good it looks or what parts it has are irrelevent. it is better to love who you love and let that be that. FONDL does have a point with the research, but I still find it amuseing. and the free speach thing. "i may not agree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it" forget who said that....

    I feel that religion is a big part of the gay rights thing. but again FONDL is right in that there are other arguements. The corprate one is insignificant imo. in that sence EVERY marrige is bad for thier wallets.

    the other main non-religious arguement i hear is that it ruins the necular family. bs. a family is a family no matter how many parents, or what genders they are. and just yesterday i saw on tv a show about gay parenting and they said that 25% of gay couples with children have a stay at home parent. thats more then hetero couples. intresting.

    I fully support gay marrige. I know it will someday be legal. less then 40 years ago interracial marrige was illegal. some people were sentenced to jail, marriges pronouced null and void, and some banished from thier home state. this was actually based on religus grounds. (http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...istoric/query=[group+f_marriage!3A]/doc/{t40977}/hit_headings/words=4/pageitems={body}?) and even as recetly as 1999 alabama had a ban on interacial marrige. they no longer enforced it. but it was on the books. (http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/12/interracial.marriage/)

    it will happen.

    -----------

    madcap: good job with knowing the bible. you have to speak the language to have a good debate.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Quote Originally Posted by FONDL link=board=1;threadid=6379;start=msg70744#msg70744 date=1076093928
    I don&#039;t think the benefits of gay marriage to society are worth it .
    Are you serious? You don&#039;t think the cost of giving other US citizens the equal rights they deserve are worth the cost :o

    Where would this country be if that was the attitude about woman&#039;s and Afro-Americans rights?

    FONDL said the most "obvious" reason was the costs involved. What other "valid" arguments are there-if any.

    I wonder what he thinks about the millions that is being discussed to be used for the "Family Initiative" plan Bush has been pushing.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    First of all the AFA poll was an internet poll and internet polls aren&#039;t worth the paper they are printed on (pun intended). They just had a Chicago Fox news (the local affiliate) phone in poll that had 95% of people backing a citizens right to have a handgun in their home. No way 95% of the people in this country agree on anything.
    Second, and i&#039;m not saying i agree with this but the argument has been made that by allowing gay marriage then bigamy and incestuous marriages could be argued to be legal too because of this precedent.
    Heres something to watch on the news which I find humorous. When a pro- gay marriage person talks they refer to the hypothetical couple as 2 women. Conversely when the anti-gay marriage person talks they refer to 2 men.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    In reference to the pro-gay using a 2 women couple examples and anti-gay using 2 men, that is rather interesting I&#039;ll have to take note next time I hear it discussed on the news.

    As for the incest worry- I doubt that will become an issue as there is scientific data that shows children of incest commonly have physical and mental problems.

    Now bigamy may end up on the radar screen but that is really a religious issue rather than a medical or legal one so it could make for some good debate.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    AMEN, MADCAP!!!


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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Quote Originally Posted by ami link=board=1;threadid=6379;start=msg70761#msg70761 date=1076099742
    madcap: good job with knowing the bible. you have to speak the language to have a good debate.
    Actually, i&#039;m fascinated by Mythology. Be it Norse, Greek, Egyptian or Christian. Folklore is an interesting subject.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    Quote Originally Posted by emilybelle link=board=1;threadid=6379;start=msg70746#msg70746 date=1076095959
    i am so glad that their are people with my thoughts on all this! madcap and miss luscious....thank you! i have heard for two years now that i am going to hell b/c i defend gay rights...and that is from my SO&#039;s mother! imagine dating a guy for over two years and never being able to talk about religion!
    You&#039;re gonna go to hell for dancin&#039; nekkid, not for defending gay rights! Of course I&#039;m only kidding...

    But the hypocrisy of the religious right still astonishes me.

    I find it highly amusing how certain "Christians" spew so much virulent hatred and bigotry. No wonder Jesus hasn&#039;t come back yet, he doesn&#039;t want to be around all these assholes who abuse His name!
    "She has written so well, and marvellously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer...But this girl, who is to my knowledge very unpleasant and we might even say a high-grade bitch, can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers"

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    "If Jesus knew all the things that had been done in his name, he wouldn&#039;t be able to stop throwing up" -- Morgan Freeman

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    GREAT quote Madcap!

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    welll my opinion is who the hell cares if gays get legally married??? if they love one another, go right ahead!! it&#039;s not bothering anyone else!!! the basis and the whole point of marriage is so that two people who genuinely love each other have an intimate ceremony that applauds a promise to one another. good for them!! arent there more important things to worry about?? ugh. if i was gay i would be so pissed about this whole thing. between this and the cig ban i dont know what is next.


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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    It&#039;s no-one&#039;s business to tell others how to love one another. There&#039;s too little of that in the world as it is.

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    Default Re:AFA's Gay marriage poll blows up in their faces.

    if i was gay i would be so pissed about this whole thing. between this and the cig ban i dont know what is next.
    Actually, they&#039;re both about the same things #1- they both involve huge amounts of money for the government and big corporations. #2 - they both involve the ability of a supposed "majority" to dictate what a minority can and can&#039;t do legally.

    Where the money issue is concerned, legalized gay marriage would suddenly result in huge new bills for the government and for corporations in the form of dependent health and life insurance and pension costs and social security costs (which unmarried spouses aren&#039;t eligible for). Ultimately these extra costs will shrink the paychecks of straight people and increase their taxes to cover the costs of these new benefits for gays, although straight people don&#039;t yet realize this fact.

    #2 legalizing gay marriage on a federal level (which will be an issue the day after the first gay couple in MA is married and one of them applies for benefits for their spouse) would also by definition open the door to legalizing polygamy, cults, prostitution, perhaps even bestiality. This stems from the new legal point with gay marriage which replaces the traditional &#039;devinely ordained&#039; union of a man and a woman with the personal choices of consenting adults.

    Of course the courts will only allow people to follow the personal choices doctrine if isn&#039;t "harmful to others" i.e. the smoking ban laws.

    But look on the bright side. The same legal basis for gay marriage rights may also provide fresh new grounds to appeal anti-dance club ordinances, since the fact that the majority of voters do not have to approve of openly gay unions in order for the few people who do approve to have the right to practice their &#039;unpopular&#039; preference with equal legal rights. Gay marriage therefore invalidates Christian "morality based" position and the majority opinion based "community standards" doctrine which has been the basis for sodomy laws, straight marriage only laws, and anti-dance club laws.

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