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Thread: Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

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    Default Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Dubbya and Blair have been nominated for the friggin nobel PEACE prize!




    Then 43,000+ people protested, and the Nobel Commitee apparently rejected the nomination (I'm pretty sure). But this is insane. Why even nominate BUSH?

    To nominate Bush and Blair for the Nobel Peace Prize is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard! Since when does making war equate to making peace? To top it off the war on Iraq is totally unjustified. Iraq has never been an threat to the United States or Britain. Who cares if they had nukes or not when they don't have a delivery system? What are they gonna do, Fed Ex us the bomb?

    To present the prize to Bush and Blair would be an embarassment to worthy past recipients. Even the nomination is an insult to peace loving people from around the world.


    (Thankfully I can edit posts again)

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Say that in Iraq in 50 years time...my guess is an angry mob of people very grateful for what Bush & Blair have done will confront you. Germany and Japan weren't rebuilt in a day, and Iraq's rebuilding is progressing faster than either of them. Bush was elected here by fewer than 50% of the voting population...80-90% of Iraqi's agree with the U.S.-led removal of Saddam. Try getting 80-90% of Americans to agree on something and you'll appreciate what those numbers mean.

    That being said, the lack of WMD and the resulting loss of U.S. credibility means he won't get my vote, even though I agree with this action. He can't change his justification after the fact.

    Lastly, do you really believe that one cannot make war/violence to bring peace? If so, how do you justify letting the police use force in apprehending criminals?

    -lestat1
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 link=board=1;threadid=6621;start=msg73715#msg73715 date=1076747748
    Say that in Iraq in 50 years time...my guess is an angry mob of people very grateful for what Bush & Blair have done will confront you. Germany and Japan weren't rebuilt in a day, and Iraq's rebuilding is progressing faster than either of them. Bush was elected here by fewer than 50% of the voting population...80-90% of Iraqi's agree with the U.S.-led removal of Saddam. Try getting 80-90% of Americans to agree on something and you'll appreciate what those numbers mean.
    You won't hear me crying any crocodile tears for Saddam, but the war was gone about in a really stupid way. Look at all the france bashing that went on because they had the nerve to go against Bush? Freedom Fries? How stupid is that? These people are our OLDEST ALLIES! When Britain gave up the ghost in the revolutionary war, they weren't surrendering to us, they were surrendering to france! Their soldiers outnumbered americans on the field by like three to one.

    Look at the anger over Turkey's refusal to let America launch a northern invasion. Turkey is a democratic nation, and 90% of it's people opposed the war. How can someone say they love democracy when they go nuts over a democratic decision when it doesn't go their way?

    The Bush administration has turned the world against the USA over this issue. Had the war gone on with a little more class, I wouldn't be so mad about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 link=board=1;threadid=6621;start=msg73715#msg73715 date=1076747748
    That being said, the lack of WMD and the resulting loss of U.S. credibility means he won't get my vote, even though I agree with this action. He can't change his justification after the fact.
    That's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 link=board=1;threadid=6621;start=msg73715#msg73715 date=1076747748
    Lastly, do you really believe that one cannot make war/violence to bring peace? If so, how do you justify letting the police use force in apprehending criminals?

    -lestat1
    I really believe that one cannot go and blow up broken down third world nations to bring peace. Police use force, but they generally aren't blowing people's brains out unless seriously threatened, and if a cop shoot someone (hell, even discharges his weapon at all) he's got some consequences (even if it's justified). A mountain of paperwork, investigations, etc...

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    being from germany i have to comment this one:
    Germany and Japan weren't rebuilt in a day, and Iraq's rebuilding is progressing faster than either of them.
    this is so not true. after ww2 (a 6yr cruel and gutwrenching war) the situation in defeated germany and japan was not even close to be comparable to iraq! there was war fatigue to the extreme, millions died, cities where ruins everywhere.
    and there was *no* military or terroristical resistance after capitulation.
    please, this is nothing that should be underestemated.

    sorry, i don't like political rambling and won't discuss this further here but just had to point this out.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    First, ANYONE can be "Nominated" for a Nobel peace prize and history is full of bizarre nominations.
    Second, A reminder. US history is full of Presidents who had less than 50% of the popular vote. Since 1944, only 2 Democrats elected President have had more than half of the popular vote. LBJ in 64 and Jimmy Carter in 1976.
    Wanna source go to the Census Statistical Abstract at http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/...b/election.pdf page 3 of 26 (dialup warning this is a pdf file and is fairly big)
    Bill Clinton was elected in 1992 with 43% of the popular vote whereas GW was elected with 47.9% of the popular vote. It is true that Gore had more votes than Bush, but if Gore had won Florida he would have had less than half the popular vote too(48.4%). Just a few factoids.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    I'm a bit uncomfortable voicing political opinions as well. However, here are a few more factoids to keep things in perspective.

    I knew 2 people who were killed in the World Trade Center disaster. Were it not for Bush and Blair taking the fight to the terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq it's highly likely that many more US citizens would have known more people killed in more terrorist incidents on US soil by now.

    Twice as many people were killed as a result of the WTC attack as were killed at Pearl Harbor. Yet unlike the 1941 congress and American people, there is very little outrage or unified support for this war against terrorists as the result of the similarly unprovoked 2001 attack on US soil (despite the fact that it specifically targeted civilians for the most part).

    On the subject of WMD's - Israeli intelligence, Russian intelligence and Saudi intelligence all say that in late January of last year large truck convoys were spotted leaving facilities in Iraq and crossing the border into Syria and Lebanon (both with governments which tolerated terrorist presence and facilities). When Bush and Blair tried to browbeat the Syrian president to kick out terrorists or allow US forces to pursue them in Syria, the anti-war coalition jumped all over the issue as an unwarranted expansion of the war and effectively prevented further investigations. It is not impossible that truckloads of Iraqi WMD's are buried under the sands in Syria's border desert with Iraq, and/or hidden in the terrorist stronghold of Lebanon's Bekaa valley. If you'd like to see some alternative media coverage you might want to check out which is as obviously slanted toward an Israeli perspective as Al Jazeera reporting is to a militant Arab perspective. You might particularly want to check out on the subject of Iraq's WMD's. I'm not trying to make any particular point here other than to show that what you have seen in the US news media might not exactly be the complete story, and that EVERY news media outlet has it's own particular "viewpoint" which affects those stories it decides to report or not to report (see Bush's National Guard service story versus Kerry's midnight visit by a tall blonde stunning 22 year old intern with subsequent fast exit to Kenya for a further example) !

    If you define "peace" as fewer people killed by violent military action, then FAR fewer Iraqi's have been killed in the past year than in any of the last 30+ years that Saddam has been in power. Yes, some 500 US military personnel have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq in the past year which is absolutely tragic, however some 10,000 FEWER Iraqis have been killed. Lest we forget, Saddam managed to kill over 50,000 Kurds with poison gas over the course of a single campaign!

    For that matter, some 3000 fewer US civilians, firemen and cops were killed in the past year as well, as no terrorist WTC follow-up attack was able to materialize on US soil. If you combine the two tallys, Bush and Blair have indeed saved a lot of lives, which is ample justification for a Nobel Peace Prize nomination.

    Where the French, Russians, Germans and Belgians are concerned, it's an undisputable fact that all of these countries had major multi-billion dollar business monopolies going with Saddam for everything from oil to weapons to high tech equipment to heavy equipment, to the point where French/Russian/German technicians were still in Iraq keeping equipment running after the war had started (i.e. supporting the war effort of Saddam against the US, UK, Aussies, Poles etc). The overthrow of Saddam resulted in the termination of these business relationships which cost the French/Russian/German companies millions in easy profits. It's also an undisputed fact that Koffi Annan and other UN officials were profiting directly from the pre-war Iraqi oil for food program by siphoning off part of the proceeds from Iraqi oil sales for their own use.

    Although I'm not a general Bush supporter, I am indeed scared by what might have been if Gore were in office when the WTC attack occurred. If the Clinton legacy is any example, with no serious retaliation after the first WTC basement bombing, no serious investigation of terrorist sleepers living in the USA etc. we would have almost certainly had another major attack on US soil by now. I'm even more scared by the possibility of a Kerry presidency, as I'm sure that terrorists will take solace in the future as portended by the Jane Fonda/John Kerry anti-Vietnam war rally photograph currently making the rounds of the media.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    I am not surprised by the surfacing of a photo of John Forbes Kerry with anyone. Senator Kerry is known in Boston as "Liveshot" for his propensity to weedle his way into the TV news and before the cameras. At the time of the Fonda photo he had not honed his skills yet, because he was (by my calculation) 4 rows behind her.

    Also as yet unreported by the national press is the fact that he had a fire hydrant moved from in front of his house so he could park his big old SUV in front of the house. I prefer my hypocrites to be more transparent.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Well you have to give John Kerry an A+ for Democratic presidential strategies. He's trying to cover both ends. Following in Slick Willie's footsteps he's supposedly been giving that beautiful young blonde intern "personal instruction" (hey at least she's a lot classier than Monica L. !). If only Clinton had Kerry's hundreds of millions of dollars in personal wealth he probably could have sent Monica off to Kenya and avoided the impeachment embarrassment.

    But following in JFK's footsteps there are shadow reports Kerry's been hanging around some hollywood starlets as well i.e. Michelle Pfeiffer, Catherine Oxenburg. If he wins in 2004 it will be curious to see who sings "Happy Birthday Mr. President" ! Marilyn Monroe is a hard act to follow.

    But there is one HUGE difference between JFK and Kerry. In Jack's case it was the Kennedys who held the fortune. In Kerry's case it is his heiress wife who holds most of the purse strings. Those strings could wind up tied around his testicles if too much dirt surfaces regarding Kerry's "infidelities".

    IMHO all of this is just dirty politics on the part of Bill and Hilary Clinton to make sure that this year's Democratic presidential candidate is a modern day mirror image of Bob Dole (who ? - exactly the point). This will clear the decks for Hilary as president in 2008 after Dubya is forced out after completing his second term in office. I'd wholeheartedly support a presidential run by Hilary at any time, for the sole purpose of getting her the hell out of New York before she causes any more damage to the local economy (she's my congresswoman) ! She is definitely one tough cookie though (see the 25 toughest men in America awards) and will definitely make a better president than her husband did!

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    The French, Germans and Russians all had oil deals with Saddaam along with the $1.00 per barrel that the UN (Koffi Anan) was taking as a fee for the Oil for me that Saddaam was allowed to legally sell for medicine and food. They had no incentive to have Saddaam fall, they were making too much money.
    France helped us in the Revolutionary war and we helped them in the 2 World Wars. I think we would be even if they would pay back the loans they owe us.
    How do you blame Bush for "freedom fries"? That was done at the capitol building. I doubt President Bush eats there.

    The thing I don't get is the Saddaam was bad BUT he didn't support terrorism argument. He paid $25,000 bounties to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. i may be wrong but I think people who board busses and explode themselves are terrorists.

    Melonie--YOU ARE THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW.
    But Hillary has no prayer of being elected President. Too many people hate her more than her hubby. Also if you notice the quieter she is the higher her poll ratings go (she has been quieter for a while now). That won't fly in a run for the presidency.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    But Hillary has no prayer of being elected President. Too many people hate her more than her hubby. Also if you notice the quieter she is the higher her poll ratings go (she has been quieter for a while now). That won't fly in a run for the presidency.
    I agree with you given the present state of the world and political personalities on today's national scene. However, the situation could be very different in 2008 when Hilary's republican candidate can't be Dubya (2 term limit) or Cheney (he'll be 100 years old by then) and will instead be someone either relatively unknown (Schwarzenegger can't run he's not a citizen by birth), relatively unpopular, or relatively inexperienced. Maybe the republicans can draft Gov. Jesse Ventura to run in 2008 LOL (maybe I shouldn't be laughing, given the typical deep thought processes of your typical registered voter!)


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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    And, I don't buy into the logic that the war in Iraq is the reason we have not been attacked again. You can't just draw conclusions like that without any real evidence.
    You're not going to get public release of evidence of this sort. To do so would compromise our intelligence sources and make it much more difficult to stop subsequent terrorist plots.

    Remember the "Axis of Evil"? What's been in the news the past few months about the other two, Iran and N. Korea? They are pursuing nukes like, well, like they are about to be invaded.
    well, if Harry Truman and Jimmy Carter had dealt with these problems when they first arose decades back, they wouldn't be a threat today.


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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Great job Melonie! I give you two thumbs up on being informed and being able to rationalize and identify the "real world" versus the media, politically-slanted world.

    I know it's futile to argue politics on the internet... you just can't hope to change deeply imbedded mindsets or dispell media bombarded ideals in a few posts within a thread... but it's still an interesting diversion.

    For Ripley-
    Mission: Reduce WMD available to terrorists
    Mission Status: Failed
    Actually, the reality is-
    Mission: Reduce WMD availability to terrorists. Interrupt and dismantle terrorist networks. Disrupt and prevent additional terrorist plans. Improve intelligence efforts overseas.
    Mission Status: Complete success on all counts.

    Even from a propaganda war standpoint with high rewards, there are millions of more shifty eyes after quick, selfish repay for information. It pretty much pits the extremists versus the civilians as even citizens are pointing out bunkers, leaders and providing information.

    On the tie of Iraq to Afghanistan/Al Queda, you have to throw away a LOT of evidence in order to NOT tie the two.

    It all begins with Executive Order 13129, put into place by Clinton, that basically defines Usama Bin Laden and Al Queda as a direct and compromising threat to US security. When Bush came into office, he appended the order to include Iraq on the basis of:
    1) Evidence of Al Queda militants being trained at both the al-Nasiriyah and Salman Pak terrorist training facilities in Iraq.
    2) Sadam's near weekly addresses to the Arab community to "call on all Muslims to kill Americans wherever and whenever the are found"

    This was all prior to September 11th.

    The most direct tie of September 11th to Iraq lies as a conflict in intelligence and likely why you will never see resolution on this front. It would simply break apart the CIA and point to a complete failure of such departments. The conflict simply has to do with investigation of an after-the-fact intelligence breach surrounding a meeting with Mohammad Atta and the Iraq consul in Prague on

    1) Prague intelligence has rental car logs, passport logs and intelligence witness accounts of a meeting that occurred between Mohammad and the Iraqi consul on April 8, 2001. Two CIA officials back this report and intelligence
    2) The remainder of the CIA (whom is responsible for Mohammad's whereabouts and tracking by Order 13129) and FBI intelligence counters that these findings through cell-phone logs during this period that would place Atta in the US during this time.

    James Wooley, director of the CIA has gone on stand to counter the standpoint of his entire department and concurs with Prague intelligence. IF this meeting had truly occurred, the CIA would be found negligent and incompetent, given the reported source of the meeting was to provide funding for the Sept. 11th attack.

    So whatever you believe is up to you. This singular incident is one of many. But to truly discount an Al Queda->Iraq link, you also have to discard ALL the various forms of US airport, buildings and target and attack plans that have been recovered now that many of these camps have been overtaken by US soldiers.

    It's good to be skeptical of media reports and government intelligence sharing. But in this case, the deciding factor for me is James Wooley. Basically being one of two that will testify something that could pretty much mean criminal negligence of his organization doesn't seem to have very assuring motives. Obviously, if attention refocuses on the negligence factor, and it's proven- our very security would be crumbled as incompetent and result in an almost anarchistic rebellion to dismantle and reform. This is still on on-going thing as investigations still continue onwards.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=6621;start=msg73847#msg73847 date=1076796265
    Remember the "Axis of Evil"? What's been in the news the past few months about the other two, Iran and N. Korea? They are pursuing nukes like, well, like they are about to be invaded.
    well, if Harry Truman and Jimmy Carter had dealt with these problems when they first arose decades back, they wouldn't be a threat today.
    Yeah, and if we had attacked Russia after WW2 we wouldn't have had a cold war! That's a pretty weak argument, Melonie. They didn't, and deserve neither credit nor blame for Bush's actions.

    I don't disagree with the invasion of Iraq, I think having Saddam out of power is (long-term) a good thing for both the region and the rest of the world. The fact that there were trumped up reasons for going and lots of shady dealings (like the blatant Haliburton kickbacks) do not mean that the world is not a better place with Saddam out of power.

    I think the thread was started because Madcap felt it ridiculous that Bush and Blair would be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. On that I agree. Alfred Nobel started the Peace Prize so that things like the dynamite (or TNT, I always forget which) he invented wouldn't have to be used. To give that award to two men who advocate peace through bloodshed would be to make a mockery of the award.

    Try giving it to someone like Mohammad Abas who actually tried to get the Israeli/Arab peace process moving again, until eventually he was forced out of office by Arafat and his cronies who believe that killing civilians is the way to instill a new order.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    back to media coverage of Dubya versus Kerry ... well you can finally see the "other side of the story" in English speaking media (not US media, but British), at


    PS you'll have to cut and paste this link into a new browser window because the double commas spaz out the BBS link translator

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    And all this time I've been reading The Sun for the Page 3 girls. I don't really care about whether Kerry (or Bush for that matter) is boffing interns or beauty queens on the side if he does a good job running the country. Hell, back when it was kings and emperors, mistresses were the rule, not the exception.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1035353.htm

    Here's an another article [short] basically announcing the nomination with a slant towards disagreeing, but check out the other nominees at the bottom!
    "I still have my name
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    Doesn't seem so long
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    Every single thing I've never known"

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    I don't really care about whether Kerry (or Bush for that matter) is boffing interns or beauty queens on the side if he does a good job running the country. Hell, back when it was kings and emperors, mistresses were the rule, not the exception.
    You may not care, and I may not care, but there are about 100 million registered voters who WILL care.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    You may not care, and I may not care, but there are about 100 million registered voters who WILL care.
    Not to mention it gives ammunition to extremist religious leaders abroad to instigate their methods.
    It doesn't matter if you're somebody in this world, it rather matters you mean the whole world to somebody.

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie link=board=1;threadid=6621;start=msg73912#msg73912 date=1076814983
    I don't really care about whether Kerry (or Bush for that matter) is boffing interns or beauty queens on the side if he does a good job running the country. Hell, back when it was kings and emperors, mistresses were the rule, not the exception.
    You may not care, and I may not care, but there are about 100 million registered voters who WILL care.
    That's true...its just my personal stance on this. Although if they were uncaring enough to forgive Clinton's probable affairs and Bush's probable drug use, I'm not sure how many votes it will really change. Heck, PLs may vote for Kerry because they think its cool that the ugly guy is getting lots of action (oh yeah...I'm gonna catch hell for that one. )

    And now that I see that the nominee list also includes Hitler and Milosovec, I realize that truly anyone can be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize (as was pointed out WAY earlier in this thread).

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    Default Re:Alfred Nobel is spinning in his grave...

    Of our past presidents, there are quite a few with this in common:

    Ignore the real problems with other nations until it gets as ugly as possible.

    Only invade and fight with the countries that we are so sure that we can win, with complete disregard to the peoples opinion, the advice of other nations and the available military spending.

    The only problem that our nations leaders/past leaders seem to overlook is that Korea, Vietnam along with Iraq & supporting countries are SAVAGES when it comes to war, does anyone not know this? Our brave soldiers are not going to go out on any suicide bombing missions!
    And, when did instigating a war constitute a PEACE PRIZE?


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