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Thread: Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

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    Featured Member NikkiD's Avatar
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    Default Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    There has been quite a few mentions of the gay marriage issue on SW since San Fran defied state law and today as I was reading the news, I came upon an article that has our fine president pushing to ban all homosexual union and add as an AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION!!!
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Bush said "activist judges and local officials" from Massachusetts to San Francisco to New Mexico were attempting to redefine marriage and "change the most fundamental institution of civilization" by allowing same-sex weddings. "On a matter of such importance, the voice of the people must be heard," he said.
    --------------------------------------------------
    My question is exactly whose voice is it that must be heard? Would it be those of religious leaders?
    And what makes this matter so important when we have mothers, fathers, husbands and wives off in the middle east fighting a war that they don't necessarily believe in?

    Regardless of my stance, the only logical reason to even consider adding this to the foundation of our country, would be for religious values. Honestly, is there any other rationality behind this?

    FIRST AMENDMENT "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
    Wouldn't that be respecting the religious values of some... possibly Pres. Bush'es potential voters?!

    Is that what our constitution was intended for?



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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    The thing I don't understand is that "people" say that same-sex marriages lead to the breakdown of the family. If that is so, then what does Catholic priests sexually molesting little boys do? What does having a drug and alcohol addicted parent do?

    Why are so many people afraid of what they don't understand? I had a gay friend who had a more loving relationship with his partner than a lot of straight couples I know.

    Besides...why does everyone have to concern themselves with the private aspects of someone else's life? These people are not committing any crimes...so why are people so adamant to keep them down. Of course, these are the same people who applaud Bush for going to war with Iraq and destroying the lives of millions of people with no plan for reconstruction even in place...

    If these people put as much effort into bettering themselves as they do in oppressing that which they don't agree or understand, this world would be a better place (and Curious George never would've gotten into the circus...er, I mean the White House).

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    I agree with both of these posts. We're spending way to much time on something that really shouldn't be an issue. I feel that anyone has the right to do what they want as long as its not effecting others. I say we keep our noses out of each others business and let the do what they want and focus our attention on a few more "important" issues.

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Do you have any Idea how hard it is to ammend the constitution?

    The ERA went through twice and didn't get through, if the ERA (for god's sake) can't go through something tells me the marriage defense (or whatever it is) will fall the same way.










    PS: Look, who is anyone to tell someone else how to LOVE SOMEONE! i say give them marriage, they generally have civil union (which is the same thing as marriage just without the name, so the financial thing is usually in place already). Give them the name. It's not that big of a deal to me as long as gay people have the same rights as i do, but i can see why they want the name.

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    Featured Member NikkiD's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77530#msg77530 date=1077692586
    The thing I don't understand is that "people" say that same-sex marriages lead to the breakdown of the family. If that is so, then what does Catholic priests sexually molesting little boys do? What does having a drug and alcohol addicted parent do?

    Why are so many people afraid of what they don't understand? I had a gay friend who had a more loving relationship with his partner than a lot of straight couples I know.
    I don't believe that anyone is afraid of what they don't understand, I believe they are attempting to turn attention away from their own misgivings. God forbid anyone find out that Jimmy Baker steals from his own God's church or that Jimmy Swaggart hires a prostitute, hence committing adultry...


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    Featured Member NikkiD's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascal link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77546#msg77546 date=1077694601
    Do you have any Idea how hard it is to ammend the constitution?

    The ERA went through twice and didn't get through, if the ERA (for god's sake) can't go through something tells me the marriage defense (or whatever it is) will fall the same way.
    The constitution was never ratified for the Equal Rights Amendment because when it was proposed in 1923, it would have meant that women would become peers to men, just as ALL races would be required to be recognized as their match also.
    Slavery itself had only been added to the constitution some 58 years earlier, in December of 1865 and women couldnt even legally vote until 1868 with the 14th amendment.

    With the right backing, adding to the document itself is not that difficult. There are two ways of doing so, one of which has never been used.

    The first method is for a bill to pass both halves of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of some long outstanding amendments, such as the 27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd).

    The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and this is the plan of George W., from my understanding. And all it requires is 3/4 of the states. Considering the South and the Midwestern states are most likely to be on the conservative side, its not impossible.

    The issue isn't whether or not it will actually be added, just the simple fact that our president is declaring this to be such a pressing matter, when there are so many larger things at hand.


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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    It makes me want to ask Mr. Bush- WTF?!? Is there no separation between church and state anymore? And if you want to preserve the sanctity of marriage, why not target the drive thru chapes in Vegas then? He's off his rocker if he thinks that he can change the damn constitution due to his ridiculous lunatic-fringe convictions. It should be up to the STATES, not the federal gov't to decide, just like with education laws, etc.
    But riddle me this, how would he or any other homphobe feel if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was considered "Gross" and "immoral" to be heterosexual, and you were treated as a second class citizen in your own country because of something you couldn't control? ... Sigh... This can NOT go on!
    Pies- para qué los quiero, Si tengo alas para volar?... Feet what do I want them for, If I have wings to fly? - Frida Kahlo

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by NikkiD link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77559#msg77559 date=1077695907
    The issue isn't whether or not it will actually be added, just the simple fact that our president is declaring this to be such a pressing matter, when there are so many larger things at hand.
    I think the answer to why Bush doing this lies in the fact that its an election year and polls show that his approval rating is dropping.

    Bringing up a hot button issue like gay marriage is sure to distract some people from the not so pleasant news that a lot of American jobs have made a one-way trip to Asia.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Its sad that in a country with an overflow of hate, they are taking measures to limit love...wouldn't the time and money be better spent to outlaw violence/hatred rather than outlawing love

    i dont understand

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    Veteran Member GirlFriday's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    I had written a very long post on this issue, but deleted it because I found myself becoming too emotional. I do not want to offend anyone, nor am I here to push my views and beliefs onto anyone.

    With that said,
    I will only say this,
    This is America, and one of the founding principals for its birth was (and should still be) freedom. The freedom to choose how to live, how to dress, and the freedom to choose religion. The churches need to stop, they have their followers, but they cannot encourage politicians (with campaign contributions) to change our countries foundation because their religion does not agree with it. That is forcing us all to think the christian way.

    My 2 cents- it seems that the most hateful people in our country are the churches...

    They all need to dig deep and really take the time to understand the bible and what thier religion means to them...

    Please, "Judge not, lest ye be judged". There are far more serious matters that we need to deal with such as the horrible economy and the fact that we have no jobs here anymore.

    Many people do not ever find a companion in there life time, why should we condem those who do regardless of ther sex. It is not harming anyone to allows gays to marry, and for those who say it does needs to take a look at themselves and resolve their issues with homosexuality.
    Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of man, and it is not ever going to stop. We are all made different, and we are all made special. Let's embrace our uniqueness, not condemn it.
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    God/dess Farrah_Holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    I agree GF..how on one hand can churches preach love..but want to keep 2 people from expressing their love for each other through marriage..on the other hand.. .

    I just pray that Bush is out of office before he has an opportunity to realign the Supreme Court..

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    GF, your post said it all there. I'm sickened by this whole thing. This is supposed to be "The Land Of The Free", yeah right. I believe that two people who are in love, regardless of the couple's gender, should be able to marry and divorce like the rest of us. I personally can't stand the Church's belief system, for my own reasons. I have had countless amounts of people who are "diehard" Christians, try and convert me. And, they're not kind about it. I believe in the path I was raised on, and will continue on that road until my last breath. They have NO right to change me. No one has that right.

    I, like GF have erased my post over and over again because I've become very emotional over this "problem". A problem is exactly what it is. It makes my blood boil that now they're talking about "re-doing" one of the ammendments that our country was built on. It's ridiculous, and it's wrong. It makes me wonder what other rights they'll mess with?

    Same-Sex couples have lived together for years as married couples do, refer to eachother as their spouse, and have even adopted children together. Why the hell can't they have a marriage that is recognized as such?

    Ugh.

    What happens, if this goes through now? Numerous same-sex couples have gotten married in the past weeks. What becomes of them? One minute they're legally married, the next, they're not? Complete bullshit.


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    Featured Member NikkiD's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Girl Friday, your post was beautiful and I too, become excessively emotional! My twin brother is homosexual and would someday like to get married, he believes adopting children to be out of the question.
    I agree with you, why does our country claim to be free, when there are very few things that we are free to do?


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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Whilst I'm not American... the news certainly did hit our shores. My flate-mate can attest to how I got on top of my soapbox as soon as I heard it. GRRRRRR!

    I never liked Bush from the get go.. they asked him a few simple geography questions when he was first in office and the one the stuck in my mind (and subsequently made me never like him besides the fact that he doesn't give two hoots about the environment) was "Where is the national Parliament House located in Australia ?" (or similiar question)... He answered "Sydney".

    WRONG you drongo!! It is located in Canberra in the ACT (Australian Capital Territory). The ACT is one of the newest 'states' of Australia due to being created because the National Parliament House is located there (the way Canberra is built is that the House is located right in the centre and everything is built from that centre).

    All Bush has done is one wrong after another. Now he want to forget that STATE (politics) and RELIGION are meant to be SEPARATE!!!

    ARGH! Like the rest of you I can NOT wait for him to be out of office fast enough. He's an idiot and has been one from day one (imho).

    This is from an Australian LOL!


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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77530#msg77530 date=1077692586
    The thing I don't understand is that "people" say that same-sex marriages lead to the breakdown of the family.
    I was actualy discussing this point earlier today with my (extremely right-wing, homophobic) father, who contested that, basically, the only reason anyone gets married is in order to have children and a stable family unit. Aside from how very twisted that view of marriage is, did he and other proponents of the same-sex marriage ban ever consider the thousands, if not millions, of married couples who never have children? Or the fact that many gay couples, through artificial insemination, surrogate mothers, and/or adoption, can and do have children? And most of them provide a perfectly stable envionment for the children, at least as much as straight couples do.

    This is not about gay or straight or whose sexual orientation is "right" or "wrong". It's about civil rights, and all humans being created and treated equally. What if it were based on something besides gender? What if the president were proposing a ban on interracial marriages? Or the marriage of any black people, Asian people, Hispanic people, etc. to anyone? There'd be riots in the streets! He'd be laughed out of office! It is exactly the same thing. The only difference is that it's something a lot less people care about. Homophobia is a lot more acceptable in this society than racism.

    Reminds me of Animal Farm. "All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others."

    -Dizzy, who feels much better now that she's said her piece, SOMEWHERE.

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Personally what I find scary is that if he wiling to bring up taking this right away from people, what other rights does he want to take away??

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by NikkiD link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77559#msg77559 date=1077695907

    The constitution was never ratified for the Equal Rights Amendment because when it was proposed in 1923, it would have meant that women would become peers to men, just as ALL races would be required to be recognized as their match also.
    Slavery itself had only been added to the constitution some 58 years earlier, in December of 1865 and women couldnt even legally vote until 1868 with the 14th amendment.

    With the right backing, adding to the document itself is not that difficult. There are two ways of doing so, one of which has never been used.
    As a person who was actually an adult when the ERA came around last time and remembers it, the major problem with that Amendment was that no one was really sure what it MEANT. It is QUITE difficult to Amend the constitution when the middle third of the country on the political specturm is split over what someone could do with it.

    In contrast, it is not hard to make a clear structural change like presidential succession or formalizing a constraint on how many terms a President can serve.

    Your history of female suffrage is also a little off. Before the Amendments related to female voting, the Post Civil War Amendments, and Lowering the voting age to 18--Voting qualifications were controlled by the states. Wyoming had female Voting in 1895 if I remember the date correctly and the primary impetus to tip the balance people's minds on a national level was World War I. (as Vietnam was the item to lowering the voting age to 1

    It is HIGHLY unlikely that a Constitutional Convention will ever be called in the forseeable future outside of a vast emergency. Such a body could not be constrained to only a single topic--the way 85%(guess) of people would prefer to have changes done.

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    Senior Member JimLovesJazz's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    I just wanted to add that I couldn't agree more with the following statements:

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77668#msg77668 date=1077731765

    I think the answer to why Bush doing this lies in the fact that its an election year.
    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77669#msg77669 date=1077732052
    Its sad that in a country with an overflow of hate, they are taking measures to limit love...wouldn't the time and money be better spent to outlaw violence/hatred rather than outlawing love
    Quote Originally Posted by GirlFriday link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77684#msg77684 date=1077733674
    It is not harming anyone to allows gays to marry, and for those who say it does needs to take a look at themselves and resolve their issues with homosexuality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77996#msg77996 date=1077798340
    This is not about gay or straight or whose sexual orientation is "right" or "wrong". It's about civil rights, and all humans being created and treated equally. What if it were based on something besides gender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77996#msg77996 date=1077798340
    It is exactly the same thing. The only difference is that it's something a lot less people care about. Homophobia is a lot more acceptable in this society than racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by G-Real link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg78001#msg78001 date=1077799693
    Personally what I find scary is that if he wiling to bring up taking this right away from people, what other rights does he want to take away??

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Haven't we already had this discussion? If you all feel so strongly about separation of church and state are you opposed to all laws that deal with morality, all of which are based on religious values? To take a few examples, laws that deny me the right to have multiple wives, laws that make it illegal to have sex with girls under 18, laws that prohibit prostitution, etc. - there are many more. Are you all opposed to all these religion-based laws too, or is it just the ones you don't like?
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    I wish george bush had a gay son.... Then he might understand. What we need is a gay president. They could paint the whitehouse like a rainbow. I'm serious, gay people seen to actually give a shit about the environment, children, our future, health, ect. I've noticed gay men for the most part take much better care of themselves than straight men. I dunno, maybe I just spend too much time is South Beach.... My girlfreind loves the nude beach there....

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg77996#msg77996 date=1077798340
    ...the only reason anyone gets married is in order to have children and a stable family unit.
    Dizzy...this was quoted from what your father said...just to clear that up...

    But, yeah...sure...and because these families have a man and a woman, their children will grow up level-headed and cause no crimes. Like Theodore Kozinsky (sp? - unibomber)...or even like Jeffrey Dahmer...or those two wonderful boys...Eric Harris and Dylan Klybold. Yes, because they have been raised in a home with a man and a woman, they have been molded into the models of human excellence that we are all striving to achieve.

    On another note...my gay friend and his mate are helping raise two children. These children (8 & 10) are beautiful children...they are kind, sincere, and respectful. Why? Because they are raised by 4 people (2 men and 2 women) who love them and support them in what they want to do.

    Being raised by two men who love you or being raised by a man and a woman who love you...does it really matter? No. I am sure that some homosexual couples raise "unhealthy" and healthy children...just as heterosexuals raise them.

    The problem is that certain people don't agree with it, and so it must be banned. Which is nonsense.

    Oh...and (hehe) one more thing. Remember back in the day when the church would bitch, moan, and groan that the state would get involved in the affairs of the church...and now they want that? What gives?

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Quote Originally Posted by FONDL link=board=1;threadid=6878;start=msg78132#msg78132 date=1077824638
    Haven't we already had this discussion? If you all feel so strongly about separation of church and state are you opposed to all laws that deal with morality, all of which are based on religious values? To take a few examples, laws that deny me the right to have multiple wives, laws that make it illegal to have sex with girls under 18, laws that prohibit prostitution, etc. - there are many more. Are you all opposed to all these religion-based laws too, or is it just the ones you don't like?
    The laws are based upon someone's beliefs. No, I do not agree that someone should have sex with someone under the age of 18...but, it happens all of the time.

    There are a lot of things that I do not believe to be in people's best interest...however, by making those things "illegal" means that you are making choices/decisions for them. Life is about experience...everyone has the inborn, inate right to experience whatever they choose. We are so bent on CONTROLLING everything and everybody that we make it so hard to just EXPERIENCE.

    If I do not like something, I just don't do it. I don't condemn anyone else for doing it...life is an experience. If we respected that and lived that...we would all be much happier as a nation and as a world.

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    Featured Member FONDL's Avatar
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    The religion argument is specious. Most laws in every country are based on prevailing views of morality, which in turn are base on prevailing religious views. How could it possibly be otherwise?

    Personally I have neither religious nor moral objection to consenting adults of any sex or number living however they wish to live, but I do object to the courts unilaterally changing the long-standing legal definition of marriage. It seems to me that a public debate of this issue during an election year is very appropriate, and a proposed Constitutional amendment is a good way to guarantee such a debate.

    If anyone can give me a logical argument that supports changing the legal definition of marriage to permit union between two people of the same sex but does not equally argue in favor of legalizing polygamy, I'm all ears. So far I have not heard one, and I'm opposed to polygamy.
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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    Fondl, the thing is there is no definiation of marriage. Marriage is a uinion between 2 or more consenting people. Herein Massachusetts its no denifed as one man, One woman, therefore not allowing marrage licensces and allowing same sex couples to received the same bewnefits is against State law.

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    Default Re:Amendment Banning Gay Marriages?!

    G-Real, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if a legal definition of marriage exists anywhere. But there are several centuries of practice that can be assumed to have established a commonly held definition. I'm opposed to any court arbitrarily changing that. This is clearly an issue that should be addressed by either state legislatures or Congress. And since it affects so many federal programs (eg. Social Security and Medicare) it seems to me that Congress will ultimately have to decide. Which I think is where the issue should be decided.
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